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Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.09 17:48:00 - [61] Originally by: Jin Steele There is a much easier way that will be just as beneficial, but will take 10-20 billion in capital to start effectively probably. The answer is simple. When you undock from the 4-4 station, there is between 100-200 people stuck there trying to warp. This is because the three most common gates (new caldari, sobaseki, perimeter) are all behind the station. If we move to the 4-5 caldari navy station (i think this is the right one), it faces the other way, therefore eliminating the massive amount of people stuck outside the station, and helping immensely with the lag. If we could get enough people to start buying and selling there, it would allow more volume of trade and quicker turnover. An even better solution is to spend 10-20 billion to get a ton of people in battleships with smartbombs, then whenever a cluster of people otuside the station is large enough to have them all detonate at once and then clean up all the loot. Do that while you're telling people to go to a different hub or a diff station and people might just do it. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.09 17:53:00 - [62] Originally by: Shadarle Do that while you're telling people to go to a different hub or a diff station and people might just do it. I remember one fellow trying something similar to that. People ***ed and moaned till the GM's gave him a ban warning. They decided that sitting an Armageddon with smb's on along the flight path was griefing. So it is okay to cluster around a station in huge packs for the chance to suicide gank someone but it is not okay if you do it to a huge mass of people. Me thinks. It's A GIRL!!!!!**
Cutie Chaser Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.09 19:09:00 - [63] How about a less drastic approach? Try to get all module/ammo sales moved over 1 system. Leaving ships/manufacturing supplies in Jita. That halves the amount of people in one system while still making it conveniently. You could further divide(or differently divide) items into the surrounding systems. No reason to try to talk people into moving 1/2 across the galaxy, since each system is independently controlled it would be just as little lag that way, and people might actually be willing to do it, since it takes less effort :P *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Mother Clanger M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.10 02:04:00 - [64] It really doesn't matter that it's half way across the galaxy from Jita unless you're talking about the logistics of moving stuff out of Jita. From a consumer standpoint, all that matters is I can get everything I need in one station. There's a very simple way of getting everyone to go there too: advertising. The product (1 stop shopping) must be genuine though.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.10 02:27:00 - [65] Originally by: Cutie Chaser How about a less drastic approach? Try to get all module/ammo sales moved over 1 system. Leaving ships/manufacturing supplies in Jita. That halves the amount of people in one system while still making it conveniently. You could further divide(or differently divide) items into the surrounding systems. No reason to try to talk people into moving 1/2 across the galaxy, since each system is independently controlled it would be just as little lag that way, and people might actually be willing to do it, since it takes less effort :P because that wouldn't be creating a competing market. just moving the problem. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Nummb	Posted - 2007.10.10 03:29:00 - [66] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Jin Steele There is a much easier way that will be just as beneficial, but will take 10-20 billion in capital to start effectively probably. The answer is simple. When you undock from the 4-4 station, there is between 100-200 people stuck there trying to warp. This is because the three most common gates (new caldari, sobaseki, perimeter) are all behind the station. If we move to the 4-5 caldari navy station (i think this is the right one), it faces the other way, therefore eliminating the massive amount of people stuck outside the station, and helping immensely with the lag. If we could get enough people to start buying and selling there, it would allow more volume of trade and quicker turnover. An even better solution is to spend 10-20 billion to get a ton of people in battleships with smartbombs, then whenever a cluster of people otuside the station is large enough to have them all detonate at once and then clean up all the loot. Do that while you're telling people to go to a different hub or a diff station and people might just do it. I PROCLAIM SHADARLE AS MY IDOL I have 3 accounts with all three of them having a battleship pilot, I am down for smartbombing some haulers
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2007.10.10 09:18:00 - [67] Edited by: Stephar on 10/10/2007 09:20:47 Here's something to consider when discussing trade hubs: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=454910 I'll quote the top 20 for convenience: Quote: 1 Tokyo Japan 1191 2 New York USA 1133 3 Los Angeles USA 639 4 Chicago USA 460 5 Paris France 460 6 London UK 452 7 Osaka/Kobe Japan 341 8 Mexico City Mexico 315 9 Philadelphia USA 312 10 Washington DC USA 299 11 Boston USA 290 12 Dallas/Fort Worth USA 268 13 Buenos Aires Argentina 245 14 Hong Kong China 244 15 San Francisco/Oakland USA 242 16 Atlanta USA 236 17 Houston USA 235 18 Miami USA 231 19 Sao Paulo Brazil 225 20 Seoul South Korea 218 You can see that there are two main "trade hubs" in the real world: Tokyo and New York. Why 2 instead of 1? Because they are on opposite sides of the world and divided by the Pacific Ocean. You could have the same effect in EVE if you divided empire into two sectors, with low security in the middle... that would give EVE two very nice trade hubs. Now if you are to look at a single region, say, the USA... they would look kinda like this: 1) New York = Jita 2) Los Angeles = Rens 3) Chicago = Oursulaert 4) Philadelphia = Amarr 5) Washington D.C. = Tash-Murkon Prime Jita, like NYC, is the main hub. It's got the stock exchange, all the big buildings, and sits right on top of the ocean across from Europe. Compared to the other sub-hubs, Rens is located pretty far from Jita... just like Los Angeles. This distance makes it easier for the Rens market to develop as doesn't face as much direct competition with Jita. You also have some other nearby trading hubs in San Francisco & San Diego, similar to what you'll find in Minmatar space. Oursulaert is the main Gallente hub, sort of how Chicago is the main midwestern hub. Amarr is sort of close to Jita, and hence, somewhat overshadowed by Jita's market. Plus, Amarr is also a couple of jumps from another sub-hub with Tash-Murkon Prime. You sort of see the same thing with the major cities close to NYC (Philly & DC). Of course, this is just a rough comparison... but hubs are an unavoidable consequence of trade. The only reason that multiple hubs exist is because of distance and accessibility. EVE will always be dominated by a single hub unless you increase the distance between hubs (increase travel time) or make the hub less accessible (increase lag). And as I said earlier, you could also throw down the equivalent of the pacific ocean by dividing empire with a sea of low security, and watch hubs pop up and thrive in each oasis of high security.
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.10 10:25:00 - [68] Unfortunately I don't have the capital to take part in this kind of operation. But to add my thoughts on the matter I believe marketing is going to be a key factor to the success of this project. One of the key benefits Jita has is that it is well known. All new players are directed to Jita and players learn that Jita is where you go to get what you want at market prices. Advertise your new trade hub well enough and people will believe your trade hub has credibility and will be interested in deviating away from Jita if your new trade hub has a locational advantage.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.10 16:07:00 - [69] Originally by: Stephar 4) Philadelphia = Amarr Sorry to derail but I think it's mighty Amarran of you to claim my hometown. Grab Guns, Free Philly!!!! It's A GIRL!!!!!
Treelox Amarr Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.10 16:14:00 - [70] /continues the derailing They have only come for the cheese whiz...... -- ] [orange]signature removed (change the zombie gagging sig) - please email us (with the signature URL) if you want to know why - Pirlouit([email protected]

Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.11 09:22:00 - [71] I made a pretty deep query to find the "best" station. My analysis concludes that a new market hub could be successful in Penirgman. Penirgman: Within 3 Jumps you have access to 34 different systems with a combined total 970 factories available all of which systems are high security. Runners up included: Pasha, Kappas, and Ono I think the industrialists are really whats going to push some thing like this. Whereas the traders will probably guide it. So giving them plenty of nearby room to build stuff is important. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.11 10:32:00 - [72] Dodixie area sounds like a fairly good bet, but for the love of God don't actually set up in Dodixie! On a busy day Dodixie already has 300+ people in it, and the factories in the navy station have a permanent day-long queue for slots. Somewhere near there might not be a bad bet; maybe Eglennaert (2 jumps away). ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Palava	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:06:00 - [73] Edited by: Palava on 11/10/2007 14:06:47 Originally by: Dr Slurm My analysis concludes that a new market hub could be successful in Penirgman. But aren't the connections between Amarr and Caldari space better than between Caldari and Gallente/Minmatar? Especially Minmatar, where key systems are about 20 safe jumps from Jita. Atm I don't know how far it is from Jita, but when it is too close, or too far from Minmatar/Gallente to replace Jita, it won't grow very big. Otherwise it would have big industrial potential, as you said.
Ki Shodan Gallente deep blue	Posted - 2007.10.11 17:13:00 - [74] Originally by: Dr Slurm Penirgman: Within 3 Jumps you have access to 34 different systems with a combined total 970 factories available all of which systems are high security. If it is better, why is Amarr 2 jumps away, still the greater hub? There must be another reason than just simply more high sec systems in a 3 jump radius. Could you do the same query for Amarr? Thx. Are those 34 System in the same Region? What about Region jumps in Peni and in Amarr? I guess it is still like ants building an anthill, just put the stuff, where there is already the most other stuff. To make a local hub into an Trade hub near the size of Jita would be far easier, than making a new one out of thin air. Even given, that a few small scale producers already sit in Penirgman, but that is because there are also some labs there. -- Evemail me, if my name is used as guarantor!
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.11 17:25:00 - [75] Originally by: Dr Slurm My analysis concludes that a new market hub could be successful in Penirgman. Penirgman: Within 3 Jumps you have access to 34 different systems with a combined total 970 factories available all of which systems are high security. Runners up included: Pasha, Kappas, and Ono I think the industrialists are really whats going to push some thing like this. Whereas the traders will probably guide it. So giving them plenty of nearby room to build stuff is important. You must have some mad SQL skills to run those queries 970 manufacturing slots are handy, yes, but I think that many may be overkill. If we're going to take away half of Jita's business, then in theory we'll only need half its manufacturing capacity. There are ~800 slots within 1 jump of Jita, usually running near capacity. However the slots 2 jumps out are almost always empty. So to match Jita after half its marketshare is taken away (which would likely take a while), we'd need a site with only 400 slots. To allow for growth and ancillary factors, a site with 500-750 slots nearby would be more than sufficient, and allow us many other possibilities. Also, 3 jumps is a bit much... I manufacture 1 jump away from Jita and that's a small hassle. I can't imagine moving a freighter 6 jumps (there and back) on multiple trips for all the minerals/products. 2 jumps out would be the max distance I'd be willing to manufacture at. Just think of the time needed: Manufacturing Distance from Hub - Warps needed for Round Trip Same station - 0 Same system - 2 1 Jump - 4 2 Jumps - 6 3 Jumps - 8 8 Warps in a freighter + 6 Jumps would take around 15-20 minutes. Too much wasted time for my tastes. So perhaps run the query with 500+ slots within 2 jumps? Also, we should discuss advertising. Would something as simple as tossing out cans around Jita 4-4 that said "Avoid the lag, visit our one stop shop in XXX, region XXX. Prices equal to Jita." be sufficient? Once details are ironed out, we definitely need to bring aboard those in the Stations, Outposts Forum (the producers). We can also consider advertising on external websites, such as Eve-Files. The best possible thing would be if CCP did a news story about it, or a blog - reaches a ton of eyeballs and gives legitimacy to our project. It's in CCP's best interest that Jita's traffic be lowered, so perhaps they'd be willing to help us out. Speaking of prices, I think prices should be maintained within 5% of Jita, which is where we'll come in. Penirgman is a highly traveled spot in Domain, but it's 2 jumps away from the well established Amarr system. Pasha is also in an active area of Amarr space, in Tash-Murkon, but it's 2 jumps away from the regional hub of Tash-Murkon Prime and in a dead end system. Kappas (Lonetrek) and Ono (The Citadel) are quite close to Jita. Are there any potential areas in Gallente/Minmatar space? If not, I'll feel sorry for them once Factional Warfare arrives... -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.11 18:28:00 - [76] Originally by: Amicus Pauperi Originally by: Dr Slurm My analysis concludes that a new market hub could be successful in Penirgman. Penirgman: Within 3 Jumps you have access to 34 different systems with a combined total 970 factories available all of which systems are high security. Runners up included: Pasha, Kappas, and Ono I think the industrialists are really whats going to push some thing like this. Whereas the traders will probably guide it. So giving them plenty of nearby room to build stuff is important. You must have some mad SQL skills to run those queries 970 manufacturing slots are handy, yes, but I think that many may be overkill. If we're going to take away half of Jita's business, then in theory we'll only need half its manufacturing capacity. There are ~800 slots within 1 jump of Jita, usually running near capacity. However the slots 2 jumps out are almost always empty. So to match Jita after half its marketshare is taken away (which would likely take a while), we'd need a site with only 400 slots. To allow for growth and ancillary factors, a site with 500-750 slots nearby would be more than sufficient, and allow us many other possibilities. Also, 3 jumps is a bit much... I manufacture 1 jump away from Jita and that's a small hassle. I can't imagine moving a freighter 6 jumps (there and back) on multiple trips for all the minerals/products. 2 jumps out would be the max distance I'd be willing to manufacture at. Just think of the time needed: Manufacturing Distance from Hub - Warps needed for Round Trip Same station - 0 Same system - 2 1 Jump - 4 2 Jumps - 6 3 Jumps - 8 8 Warps in a freighter + 6 Jumps would take around 15-20 minutes. Too much wasted time for my tastes. So perhaps run the query with 500+ slots within 2 jumps? Also, we should discuss advertising. Would something as simple as tossing out cans around Jita 4-4 that said "Avoid the lag, visit our one stop shop in XXX, region XXX. Prices equal to Jita." be sufficient? Once details are ironed out, we definitely need to bring aboard those in the Stations, Outposts Forum (the producers). We can also consider advertising on external websites, such as Eve-Files. The best possible thing would be if CCP did a news story about it, or a blog - reaches a ton of eyeballs and gives legitimacy to our project. It's in CCP's best interest that Jita's traffic be lowered, so perhaps they'd be willing to help us out. Speaking of prices, I think prices should be maintained within 5% of Jita, which is where we'll come in. Penirgman is a highly traveled spot in Domain, but it's 2 jumps away from the well established Amarr system. Pasha is also in an active area of Amarr space, in Tash-Murkon, but it's 2 jumps away from the regional hub of Tash-Murkon Prime and in a dead end system. Kappas (Lonetrek) and Ono (The Citadel) are quite close to Jita. Are there any potential areas in Gallente/Minmatar space? If not, I'll feel sorry for them once Factional Warfare arrives... -AP I'll give my results another look when I get home. I don't think 970 factories is that much. I think unrestricted growth in that area would encourage industrialists to inhabit the area. I can tell you that Kappas and Pasha had access to over 1500 factories within a few jumps. Amarr also had a decent factory to station ratio within a few jumps. I think if you're looking for a minmatar system it will probably have to be rens or hek. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.11 18:50:00 - [77] I just got finished doing some lazy-ass shopping in Hek. (Quick outfitting of some l2 mission ships) I found the experience to be rewarding. The market there has developed nicely even if it is still a very pale shadow of Jita. The volume isn't 25% of the way there but the wideness of the selection. For a customer it is nice and well recommended. Disclosure: I have nothing on the Hek or Metro markets. (At this time - I may also be entering it though.) It's A GIRL!!!!!
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.11 21:06:00 - [78] Originally by: Shar Tegral I just got finished doing some lazy-ass shopping in Hek. (Quick outfitting of some l2 mission ships) I found the experience to be rewarding. The market there has developed nicely even if it is still a very pale shadow of Jita. The volume isn't 25% of the way there but the wideness of the selection. For a customer it is nice and well recommended. Disclosure: I have nothing on the Hek or Metro markets. (At this time - I may also be entering it though.) Ever since Hek got mentioned in this thread I've noticed my sales are through the roof in that system. Not sure if that is the contributing factor, but it correlates. I looked up Amarr within 2 jumps it has access to 20 high sec systems and 736 factories. Which is still pretty good. I'm not a really big fan of trading in amarr because the trade is so stagnant, but this kind of project would changes that. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 04:20:00 - [79] How do you mean by stagnant? Prices are non-volatile? Overall growth in the Amarr market has ceased? I make decent money there, as I do in every other place.. Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.12 04:35:00 - [80] I guess the amount of volume traded didn't seem like it was worth the long trip down there. I could be wrong. I haven't traded their in a while now. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>

Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.12 04:49:00 - [81] Originally by: Amicus Pauperi How do you mean by stagnant? Prices are non-volatile? Overall growth in the Amarr market has ceased? I make decent money there, as I do in every other place.. Prepare for an onslaught of competition then. Every place that gets firmly mentioned as profitable gets invaded by the lurkers. Perhaps we shouldn't mention the huge profits made in Khanid Prime? It's A GIRL!!!!!
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 04:55:00 - [82] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Amicus Pauperi How do you mean by stagnant? Prices are non-volatile? Overall growth in the Amarr market has ceased? I make decent money there, as I do in every other place.. Prepare for an onslaught of competition then. Every place that gets firmly mentioned as profitable gets invaded by the lurkers. Perhaps we shouldn't mention the huge profits made in Khanid Prime? Lurkers know this: profits can be made anywhere. So move outta Jita and show some love for the smaller hubs... you may be surprised to find that you actually make MORE than you did in Jita. And I'm not trying to deceptively coerce you... I don't spend much time in Empire anymore so there's no reason for me to lie to ya. Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 05:12:00 - [83] Originally by: Dr Slurm I guess the amount of volume traded didn't seem like it was worth the long trip down there. I could be wrong. I haven't traded their in a while now. And you're right, that's one reason I'm hesitant to setup the new hub in the Amarr area. If you look into it, the amount of people populating the Amarr area is significantly less than elsewhere. Distribution of Empire dwellers, by racial area: Caldari > Gallente > Minmatar > Amarr Amarr (the system) is the racial hub, and its volume isn't all that great. Which makes me doubt the potential of setting up the new hub in Penirgman. But then again, it can be argued that maybe people don't live there because they have a crappy, overpriced, inconsistent market. So is the low residence a result of poor market performance, or is the poor market performance due to low residence? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Personally, I think Amarr has a small population because Amarrians are filthy slaveholders who have few decent ships. On the other hand, the capitalist Caldari pigs are large in number and have many popular ships. Down with the Amarr! j/k, I don't give much thought to the RP aspect of EvE, it's just humorous. -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.12 05:20:00 - [84] Originally by: Amicus Pauperi j/k, I don't give much thought to the RP aspect of EvE, it's just humorous.-AP I don't much either however I do bend towards it. I wouldn't set up shop in Amarran space when I can do so in my Gallente homeland. (Which I do btw). I do also sell some stuff near to Rens but not in the same volumes. PS: Not all Matari come from Metropolis, Heimatar, and Molden Heath. In case you wonder about that. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 06:02:00 - [85] Holy smokes... clearly I can't play Eve and keep up with you on the forums. So I'm just going to toss this out there for everyone who doesn't know and stop posting to the forums Race - Racial Hub Amarr - Amarr Caldari - Jita Gallente - Oursalurt Minmatar - Rens Each region tends to have their own "sub-hub" as well. I'll leave it to the astute market researcher to discover those. Didn't know that some Minmatar come from Gallente space, although that would be inline with their "diaspora" backstory. So back on track... I like Minmatar/Gallente space for the new hub. Dunno exactly why, just a tingling feeling down there. And by down there, I mean in my gut. What does everyone else think? -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.12 06:09:00 - [86] Edited by: Shar Tegral on 12/10/2007 06:09:33 I'm liking Hek for a Min/Gall hub. It can be a bit dangerous in Coleile and through the Aufay pipe, alot of suiciders due to traffic volume. But it is a quick connect to Sinq, Essence, Heim, Molden Heath, Verge... a few others that are not too far off. Rens is actually good for more of a Min/Amarr hub. It's quite a bit closer to the Amatar areas and the lesser supported Amarran regions. Our-so-lagged is like Jita, age old hub. Everyone knows it and sadly most people use just the one missioning station there. I try to base any sales out of Renyn just to avoid the crowds myself. Interesting ideas though. Originally by: Amicus Pauperi Holy smokes... clearly I can't play Eve and keep up with you on the forums. -AP Multiple screens and computers allow me the freedom to carebear and pvp while posting on the forums. Yes, life is good. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2007.10.12 21:07:00 - [87] One thing to check for is accessibility to null sec entry points. Not having to resupply in Jita would, IMO, be a nice draw. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Kaaii Caldari Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.10.12 22:04:00 - [88] I haven't seen (what I feel) mentioned is the single driving force making jita what it is today... Convenience.... Its where "you can get almost anything" in one spot. People still brave the lag, buying stuff on the way in before getting there, to dock, fit and be gone, with instant ship ready modules of all descriptions. While this serves the pvp community, and to a lesser extent, mission runners, its primarily a one-stop shop to get your self fitted out with minimal running around. Couple this with your low ball sellers and you have a pilots wet dream.... Now add the budding/intermediate/advance industrialist, a pinch of tools, equipment, minerals, invention supplies and misc skills, and you've doubled the load, again by making it a one stop shop. You want to move/compete with jita, you have to cater to the "me/now I want it all right away" player, the instant gratification player, to have any chance of reducing the load on the system. How many of you/us/them folks can pony up the net worth of jita market resources, even with for thought and planning... Not many I'll wager, if any at all.. Kaaii According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.12 22:31:00 - [89] Originally by: Kaaii I haven't seen (what I feel) mentioned is the single driving force making jita what it is today... Convenience.... It has but your additions on it is very good. It's A GIRL!!!!!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.10.13 01:21:00 - [90] i support the hub to be pen but not minmatar space ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem



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