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Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 05:00:00 - [1] I really don't like Jita, mostly because it is trendy, but also because the competition there tends to have ripple effects on the rest of the market. I'm curious if any other traders and industrialists would like to create a brand new trade hub? Part of the attraction of Jita is that it is known to have everything, one stop shopping if you will. I know that Rens already exists, but it would be kind of fun to start from scratch. Thoughts? <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Kitex Blacktag Test Labs	Posted - 2007.10.06 05:16:00 - [2] Not sure if you're entirely serious or not, but oddly enough, the idea does strike me as fun. Would require quite a few people, but I'm certain there is enough industrial and financial power in this forum to see the job done. Might make for an interesting experiment, if nothing else. Blacktag - Buy ships / Fittings / Drones / Ammo in BULK with Delivery!
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 05:18:00 - [3] If enough other people were interested I would invest the time in finding the right system and do some trading there myself. I'm very serious about not liking jita though. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Benvie	Posted - 2007.10.06 05:22:00 - [4] You would have to choose some place that has some sort of benefit for buyers. Some location advantage, perhaps near a mission hub that doesn't have a market hub nearby, or near an important passage to 0.0.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 05:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Benvie You would have to choose some place that has some sort of benefit for buyers. Some location advantage, perhaps near a mission hub that doesn't have a market hub nearby, or near an important passage to 0.0. I'd prefer to stay neutral of the alliances and not favor one over the other, but if you have some suggestions for systems this could take place in it could be interesting. The other side of it is if we were to choose a very back water system and provided enough people were involved it would become a semi-private bulk traders market of sorts. This would probably last a little while and then eventually be over run by the public. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.06 05:50:00 - [6] reserving my spot in an 'i told you so' post, as you may see this happen sooner than you think I say no more Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.06 06:31:00 - [7] Having a Jita is a good thing. If you start up a new Jita and are actually successful then the only thing you'll do is make people move from Jita to the new place. There is a reason Jita exists and is so big. I personally go there about once a month at most and I don't even buy much... but Jita makes the game a LOT better for lots of people as it simplifies a lot of things and saves lots of time. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 06:46:00 - [8] Originally by: Shadarle Having a Jita is a good thing. If you start up a new Jita and are actually successful then the only thing you'll do is make people move from Jita to the new place. There is a reason Jita exists and is so big. I personally go there about once a month at most and I don't even buy much... but Jita makes the game a LOT better for lots of people as it simplifies a lot of things and saves lots of time. The market would be improved with a competitor of sorts. Ideally if half the population that inhabits and frequents jita quit going there and instead went to another hub the market would be all the much better for it. I'm not sure I even really care if the trammy loving carebears from jita move to the new hub. Probably be better if they didn't. I really like the idea of a bulk traders hub, where say all the buy orders have huge minimum volumes. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.06 06:53:00 - [9] I don't see why it would be good for the economy. I mean there are already a lot of other hubs. The Dev blog showed that other regions make up similar amounts of sales as The Forge. What I'm saying is that if the big time traders leave Jita then all the small time traders will eventually leave too as the bigger traders leave there will be less and less items available. And once they find out there is another hub that traders go to they will go there. But you'd have to get a very large amount of traders to move. Traders worth trillions of ISK combined or they wouldn't be influential enough to change the market. I have 20+ billion worth of buy orders up and I am a tiny tiny part of a much smaller market than Jita. So to sum up: 1) I don't see why it would help to move Jita / try to make 2 Jita's each half the size 2) I don't think you'll be able to do it Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 07:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Shadarle I don't see why it would be good for the economy. I mean there are already a lot of other hubs. The Dev blog showed that other regions make up similar amounts of sales as The Forge. What I'm saying is that if the big time traders leave Jita then all the small time traders will eventually leave too as the bigger traders leave there will be less and less items available. And once they find out there is another hub that traders go to they will go there. But you'd have to get a very large amount of traders to move. Traders worth trillions of ISK combined or they wouldn't be influential enough to change the market. I have 20+ billion worth of buy orders up and I am a tiny tiny part of a much smaller market than Jita. So to sum up: 1) I don't see why it would help to move Jita / try to make 2 Jita's each half the size 2) I don't think you'll be able to do it Jita has too much of an indirect effect on the rest of this market. This is due in part to the number of people trading there and the massive turnover volume that results from that population. Jita too easily sets the trends for markets in other regions. Breaking the Jita population in half or creating a decent competing trade hub would take away some of the power that indirect effect has. The effect would be more distributed against all the other regions. The distribution among other regions would in turn stabilize prices, which is good for consumers. The markets then become sellers markets, while still being fair to the consumer. The consumers in turn buy more, the producers produce more and so on and so on... as for #2 of course I can't do it. I would be but a grain of sand in the ocean of the trade market in this. I do know that my trading activity tends to stabilize prices and hold them where they are for longer periods of time. I know that both of us depend on market instability to make the majority of our isk, but I feel that is a very short sighted approach to the market. I think market stability is much more important to long term profits. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>

Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.06 08:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Dr Slurm I know that both of us depend on market instability to make the majority of our isk, but I feel that is a very short sighted approach to the market. I think market stability is much more important to long term profits. I have not reached a peak in my profits yet... so if using market instability is short sited then I couldn't imagine what long sited is I am not quite sure why you think stability would be a good thing. It would be for producers and such... but not for traders. Stability leads to smaller and smaller margins. Instability = good. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 09:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Dr Slurm I know that both of us depend on market instability to make the majority of our isk, but I feel that is a very short sighted approach to the market. I think market stability is much more important to long term profits. I have not reached a peak in my profits yet... so if using market instability is short sited then I couldn't imagine what long sited is I am not quite sure why you think stability would be a good thing. It would be for producers and such... but not for traders. Stability leads to smaller and smaller margins. Instability = good. Stability creates a larger market. The larger the market, the larger the potential profits. Trojan condoms are good example of this effect. They control the vast majority of the condom market. Advertising to steal customers from other condom manufacturers is no where near as effective as trying to get new people to use condoms. So instead of expanding their market share they expand the market in general which has a greater effect. There are other commodities that I would like to trade, unfortunately they don't have the kind of turn over right now that would make them worth it for me. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Barbicane A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.06 13:37:00 - [13] I like the idea of creating a new market hub. Less competition in Jita means prices will rise all over the universe
Daerkannon Shimmerscale Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.10.06 16:14:00 - [14] Ok, but what about the bulk/volume trader? I go to Jita not because I like it or because I can get the best price there, but because it's the only place that I can go to trade the volumes I deal in in a time frame that doesn't drive me insane. I can see a secondary hub being setup for ship/module trade and maybe some minerals and other building materials, but frankly for the stuff I deal in Jita is the only place to be and splitting it just makes twice the work for me. Twice the work for 10% more profit doesn't look like a winning equation to me. --- Honest officer, the dwarf was on fire when I got here! Can't find a mechanical engineering agent? Need a non-Caldari Navy agent? http://www.eve-agents.com/ for all your agent needs!
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.06 16:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Dr Slurm Stability creates a larger market. The larger the market, the larger the potential profits. You seem to be making the point as to why Jita exists and why Jita is good. Jita is a large market because it is far more stable than the rest of EVE and the profits there are larger if you can keep up. However, it is for these exact reasons that some of us dislike Jita. You can't have it both ways. You also seem to be missing my point. By trying to destroy Jita you'd only be making a new Jita. There will always be a "Jita", even if it goes by a different name. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.06 17:08:00 - [16] I actually have been doing research on a "New Jita" for a while. It actually started with the thread about where can someone set up 10 jump buy orders and not hit Low sec systems. The requirements I had was a little different. As I was looking at a place to setup my own personal "shop" rather then a new hub. It consisted of the following. 1) A lot of Moons. 2) Must be sec status 0.5, 0.6, or 0.7 3) Must have ICE Belts 4) Must be within 10 jumps of a trade hub. Bonuses are - Has Factors, has labs, has a corporation that I have a high enough standing with free reprocessing or very close to free etc. I did find such a system, and a system that a 5 jump range is in the main trade hub and the main mission hub, and there are no low sec systems within 5 jumps so a 5 jump range can be set on all buy/sell orders. It is within 4 jumps it has six regional exists to 3 different regions, and within 10 jumps 20 Regional exists to 5 different regions. Although this is a great system for a personal shop in terms of location and function, it does only have 1 Station and 2 jump gates. Amarr for Life
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.10.06 18:14:00 - [17] O.k. To me a trading hub should be central to everything, how many places do you know with a big market on the outskirts of town? The same should hold true in Eve, if everyone has to travel the same distance to get to it then more people should go to it. I saw this post then i tabbed back into eve (yay for autopilot) opened up the map, looked for the middle of Eve and somewhere like Andrene seems to be about the middle or maybe Dresi which is a lil bit further to the left but then Eve pokes out a lil to the left. I'm not a trade or someone who's into manufacturing and i spend my high sec time about 5 jumps from jita but i don't think i've ever been there the prices have never been that much better and it's totally lagtastic baby.
Kitex Blacktag Test Labs	Posted - 2007.10.06 18:22:00 - [18] LOL @ Quote: Dear Players, Jita Star System is causing players to get stuck. Please avoid this star system if at all possible. Blacktag - Buy ships / Fittings / Drones / Ammo in BULK with Delivery!
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 20:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Dr Slurm Stability creates a larger market. The larger the market, the larger the potential profits. You seem to be making the point as to why Jita exists and why Jita is good. Jita is a large market because it is far more stable than the rest of EVE and the profits there are larger if you can keep up. However, it is for these exact reasons that some of us dislike Jita. You can't have it both ways. If we could magically chunk off a third of jita's population and get them to move elsewhere we could create a competing market. When I say larger market I'm talking across all regions. Not just localized to Jita. Quote: You also seem to be missing my point. By trying to destroy Jita you'd only be making a new Jita. There will always be a "Jita", even if it goes by a different name. I don't want to destroy Jita. It can stay right where it is and continue doing what its doing. I would like to see a second competing market of similar size. I know that sooner or later the newly created hub would become over run, but that is acceptable. Then its just a matter of starting over again in a third location. Originally by: Daerkannon Shimmerscale Ok, but what about the bulk/volume trader? I go to Jita not because I like it or because I can get the best price there, but because it's the only place that I can go to trade the volumes I deal in in a time frame that doesn't drive me insane. I can see a secondary hub being setup for ship/module trade and maybe some minerals and other building materials, but frankly for the stuff I deal in Jita is the only place to be and splitting it just makes twice the work for me. Twice the work for 10% more profit doesn't look like a winning equation to me. If the second hub became popular enough (possibly with people like yourself dropping in and picking up a good deal) it could handle that kind of volume. New players are joining Eve all the time. They have to go somewhere and Jita is getting way too crowded. Originally by: SencneS I actually have been doing research on a "New Jita" for a while. It actually started with the thread about where can someone set up 10 jump buy orders and not hit Low sec systems. The requirements I had was a little different. As I was looking at a place to setup my own personal "shop" rather then a new hub. It consisted of the following. 1) A lot of Moons. 2) Must be sec status 0.5, 0.6, or 0.7 3) Must have ICE Belts 4) Must be within 10 jumps of a trade hub. Bonuses are - Has Factors, has labs, has a corporation that I have a high enough standing with free reprocessing or very close to free etc. I did find such a system, and a system that a 5 jump range is in the main trade hub and the main mission hub, and there are no low sec systems within 5 jumps so a 5 jump range can be set on all buy/sell orders. It is within 4 jumps it has six regional exists to 3 different regions, and within 10 jumps 20 Regional exists to 5 different regions. Although this is a great system for a personal shop in terms of location and function, it does only have 1 Station and 2 jump gates. I can say with certainty that the most jumps you can set for an order without hitting lowsec is 7 and that system has access to 17 other high sec systems (in the same region) within those 7 jumps. The next best is 7 jumps and 9 systems, but the best is 3 jumps with 34 systems. I'm thinking a new system for a hub would need to have a lot of gates so as to make it harder for warring corps to lock down the gates and surrounding area. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:00:00 - [20] Originally by: Gawain Hill O.k. To me a trading hub should be central to everything, how many places do you know with a big market on the outskirts of town? The same should hold true in Eve, if everyone has to travel the same distance to get to it then more people should go to it. I saw this post then i tabbed back into eve (yay for autopilot) opened up the map, looked for the middle of Eve and somewhere like Andrene seems to be about the middle or maybe Dresi which is a lil bit further to the left but then Eve pokes out a lil to the left. I'm not a trade or someone who's into manufacturing and i spend my high sec time about 5 jumps from jita but i don't think i've ever been there the prices have never been that much better and it's totally lagtastic baby. Ever heard of outlet malls? BTW looking at the map isn't going to tell you anything, it would need an indepth query into the database. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>

Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:14:00 - [21] There are already smaller hubs that have nearly every item. There are just so many items in the game that to make sure someplace is stocked with them all would take a massive coordinated effort. More than every regular poster on this forum combined could do. I just do not see how the level of effort would possibly pay off. The only way to get people to go to the new hub would be to offer either higher buying prices or lower selling prices. Why would any rich trader want to lose profits like this and suffer from lower sales while trying to build the hub up? Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:36:00 - [22] Edited by: Dr Slurm on 06/10/2007 21:37:19 Originally by: Shadarle There are already smaller hubs that have nearly every item. There are just so many items in the game that to make sure someplace is stocked with them all would take a massive coordinated effort. More than every regular poster on this forum combined could do. I just do not see how the level of effort would possibly pay off. The only way to get people to go to the new hub would be to offer either higher buying prices or lower selling prices. Why would any rich trader want to lose profits like this and suffer from lower sales while trying to build the hub up? Long term goals. Larger market, larger profit. Nothing to say traders couldn't trade in both the new hub and jita which would maximize their profits. I work at a cab company that I own part of. Drivers typically only think about the short term how much is my paycheck, how much am I booking on the meter. They don't often consider the long term goals of growing the business so that we have more fares in a larger area. Whereas I understand that even though it was slow the last couple of months (because of summer) its still important to provide a high level of service ramping up for winter, when we are the busiest. Whereas the drivers would prefer to have fewer cabs on the road so they make more money. Short term they might be making more money that day in the summer if we pull a bunch of cabs off the road, but long term the whole company looses because we lost good will with customers we didn't service properly. My Trojan analogy is the perfect argument for this. If you can't see it I don't really care. This will probably never get off the ground anyways. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shiva Shakti Gallente Hi-Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.10.06 22:10:00 - [23] Thats good idea (tonight Jita froze for a lot of people) There a simple answer...bring back Yulai, as least there wasn't mission running and all that stuff going on there and I don't seem to remember there being lag there (certainly not to compare with Jita's) Visit EvE Galactic Stock Exchange and Real-time Eve Stock Exchange (in game or out, but trades in game)
Crayon Fusillade	Posted - 2007.10.06 23:07:00 - [24] People are talking about having a new trade hub on the outskirts of a region or between other trade hubs. What would be the problem in having a new trade hub 1 or 2 jumps away from Jita?
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.06 23:38:00 - [25] Originally by: Crayon Fusillade People are talking about having a new trade hub on the outskirts of a region or between other trade hubs. What would be the problem in having a new trade hub 1 or 2 jumps away from Jita? Jita would still have a large effect on it. Which would counteract the point of having a competing market. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Fabricati Diem Burleigh and Strong	Posted - 2007.10.07 02:40:00 - [26] Random thoughts: New York and Hong Kong both do massive amounts of business. There is probably enough trade in Jita that it could lose a large enough amount to create a new hub, and still remain all that is Jita. There will likely be a large amount if instability in the initial stages of a new hub. In the unlikely event the majority of trade moved from Jita to a new location, there would be even more instability and price fluctuation. Given a location, the next step would be massive amounts of minerals and moon materials. There are suppliers and shippers reading this as well as traders. Anyone that wanted to be a part could 'sponsor' part of the market by agreeing to either supply, move, or buy-for-resale a given amount of raw material. For a profit, of course.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.07 02:50:00 - [27] The biggest problem is that everyone who helps make it a bigger market will be making less money while everyone who doesn't help will make more money. So it is more beneficial to not help and make more money. Then you'll still benefit if the people get the new hub up and running in theory. And if they don't? Well, you're still making good money and they all wasted a few months. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.07 03:57:00 - [28] Originally by: Shadarle The biggest problem is that everyone who helps make it a bigger market will be making less money while everyone who doesn't help will make more money. So it is more beneficial to not help and make more money. Then you'll still benefit if the people get the new hub up and running in theory. And if they don't? Well, you're still making good money and they all wasted a few months. You know how you are always whining you have extra ISK kicking around that you want to invest? This would be the reason to invest in a new market. You can't tell me you get the same margin between all the regions you trade in. I know I certainly don't. So some are better then others. This new region wouldn't start as the most profitable place to trade but you wouldn't have to loose anything my moving there and setting up another shop. You don't have to sacrifice one option to pursue another. Thus the growing of you operation. I keep saying this, larger market, larger profit. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.07 04:04:00 - [29] Unfortunately that has nothing to do with the way I trade, so expanding like this wouldn't be horizontal but vertical. This is definitely not something I'd be able to facilitate, it would rely on people who leave their stations. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Estate	Posted - 2007.10.07 06:02:00 - [30] Originally by: Dr Slurm You know how you are always whining you have extra ISK kicking around that you want to invest? You don't have to sacrifice one option to pursue another. Thus the growing of you operation. I keep saying this, larger market, larger profit. I think this idea is great, but there would have to be a very strong group of building material suppliers as well as resellers, as someone already mentioned. Also, we shouldn't underestimate the power of mission hubs. Missions hubs bring carebears, which have tons of useless crap modules, which attracts recyclers, which creates minerals, which attracts builders, who then make modules and ships which attracts everyone else. The station chosen for this would almost -have- to be a strong mission hub for a major faction in order to succeed. Otherwise we're working against the natural flow of things instead of with it.

Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.07 06:37:00 - [31] Anyone got a list of the popular mission hubs? Then it could be narrowed down by general location, number of factories and other factors. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.07 07:33:00 - [32] Edited by: Shadarle on 07/10/2007 07:33:42 You do realize that by picking a mission hub you'll be inheriting a ton of lag as well, right? Best bet is to find a system that is fairly close to a lot of mission hubs and closer to most of them than Jita. Then advertise about it in those hubs once the place is well stocked. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Estate	Posted - 2007.10.07 08:24:00 - [33] 1-2 jumps out from a mission hub might work, but it never hurts to play to the lowest factor (simple-minded players). A large portion of EVE isn't even aware of this forum and this discussion nor do they care. A large subset of that group are casual players who do missions, farm, are nubs, etc. While these people have various degrees of activity, intelligence, and motivation, the easier it is for large numbers of people to dump goods in a single location, the better. The farther away from a mission hub we try to make this thing, the more personal effort and initial cost to traders will have to go into making it work. My opinion: let the simple-minded masses do the work for us. Lag is unavoidable, after all, a trading hub -needs- lots of people to both buy and sell, no?
Palava	Posted - 2007.10.07 09:43:00 - [34] I (my main) still has to learn very much about EvE, but I always try to learn, to adapt and to find new ways of getting something done. And I like the market discussions forum, many people with deep insight in the one thing that keeps the eve-universe alive: business ;) (enough introduction for now, back to topic) For the mission-hub thing: As far as I know, that is how Jita was created? But wouldn't that mean we will create just another Jita? If we want something different, we will have to build on a different ground. What do the market veterans think of a major trade hub for south-eastern empire, with good links to southern 0.0 space and the drone regions? And for getting it running: advertises. everywhere. get it known in the noob corps, in the local of mission hubs, tell your friends in big alliances. just write "theres a new trade hub in ***, fly there and try it. its great!"
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.07 10:01:00 - [35] Originally by: SencneS 1) A lot of Moons. 2) Must be sec status 0.5, 0.6, or 0.7 3) Must have ICE Belts 4) Must be within 10 jumps of a trade hub. Bonuses are - Has Factors, has labs, has a corporation that I have a high enough standing with free reprocessing or very close to free etc. Your system sounds quite good altho for new trade hub it would need to be easily acsessible and roughly equal distance from all four empires. For example from top of my head both Vattuolen and Hentogaira fulfill those 4 points but neither can be considered really trade hub. Hentogaira has low sec system next door and is well .. it's not central Forge, from some cornes of the market you need 20+ jumps to reach it. Neither of them has lab's also. Vattuolen - well perhaps a bit better, the best lev 3 agent in Forge region in it and all that but still relatively low population. Again a bit too far from some corners of the market.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 07/10/2007 07:33:42 You do realize that by picking a mission hub you'll be inheriting a ton of lag as well, right? Best bet is to find a system that is fairly close to a lot of mission hubs and closer to most of them than Jita. Then advertise about it in those hubs once the place is well stocked. yea it needs to be a system that cant turn into another jita though it will be a great location system that many big names routinely stock and advertise thus creating supply and demand from nothing i like this idea but a few things shave to be mentioned sacrifices must be made - you will need to put up a lot of buy and sell orders before you get enough people wanting to go there thus a lot of your isk will be idle for some time but it is a necessary evil someone needs to make this their home or setup some alliance research POS nearby thus creating a reason for people to be there that is entirely in our control i can not stress how important the convenience of the location is - it would be a good idea if it is not in the same region as jita of course many billions will need to be invested and a lot of time for advertising and possibly a well moderated public channel where it would in essence be a clone of local but people would be able to be in it while anywhere in eve - this would help settle it as a contract hub and allow people to price check without flying there or using alts not sure how office fees work and what affects them but i suppose it would have to be a system with a lot of stations to allow for people to setup their operations there without high office prices ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.07 18:35:00 - [37] Sadly, the original "Jita" was Yulai. Even bigger clump of trading and traffic, relatively, than Jita is now. And the solution, make Yulai a wasteland and create Jita. Even other regional markets, as heavily trafficked as they are, do not compare to Jita (Yulai II). Sadly Jita will exist in one form or another. And that may explain why CCP doesn't just sabotage the solar system. (I.e. shut down the markets and watch the market scatter to new places.) It's A GIRL!!!!!
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.07 19:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Shar Tegral Sadly, the original "Jita" was Yulai. Even bigger clump of trading and traffic, relatively, than Jita is now. And the solution, make Yulai a wasteland and create Jita. Even other regional markets, as heavily trafficked as they are, do not compare to Jita (Yulai II). Sadly Jita will exist in one form or another. And that may explain why CCP doesn't just sabotage the solar system. (I.e. shut down the markets and watch the market scatter to new places.) The intentional guiding hands of experienced traders will help create a new one though. I think its totally feasible. Personally I think we would be giving the Devs a hand if we could move some population out of jita by providing another good trading hub. If you trade it, they will come. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.07 19:49:00 - [39] Originally by: Dr Slurm The intentional guiding hands of experienced traders will help create a new one though. I think its totally feasible. Personally I think we would be giving the Devs a hand if we could move some population out of jita by providing another good trading hub. Well I wish you luck. My only rebellion against Jita is against 4-4 CNAP. I use other stations for the selling of the few wares I need Jita's market for and I dread having to make any purchases at that station. I'll happily pay a mark up to not buy at that station but I don't always have that choice. Alternately, people who don't sell in Jita seems to think that there should be a 50%+ markup on items. Of course this just makes me think, "Hmmmm... helluva delivery surcharge." Mind you I see Jita's strongest point as something of a flea market/bulk distributor. Many of the "sundry" items (modules, ships, ammo, materials) can be found in some volume every where. However it is either the unique items or the bulk items (I.e. Components, etc.) that you can not find anywhere else. It's a simple fact of life that Jita exists. Can't change the fact of it, the inevitable creation of it. You can only rail at it, rebel against it to some degree, and be satisfied with that much. It's like the tide. You can splash your fair amount of water in the opposite direction, splash your to your heart's content, but even if you got 1 million people to help you... tide is still going out. It's A GIRL!!!!!
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.07 21:03:00 - [40] Edited by: SonOfAGhost on 07/10/2007 21:05:14 Originally by: Palava What do the market veterans think of a major trade hub for south-eastern empire, with good links to southern 0.0 space and the drone regions? edit: oh, I just realised this hub would be Rens. Actually for the purposes of the OP I think it WAS Rens but (of existing hubs at least) Hek would now be the better choice. CCP nerfed the quality of Rens agents and removed the direct jumps to Ryddinjorn (Metropolis) and Hulm (2 of the Minmatar starter systems, the former a regional jump too). Hek on the other hand, while still smaller than Rens, has benefited significantly from the Rens nerfing, and continues to grow on it's own. Surrounded by research agents. Close to the old Minmatar hub area of Pator/Lustrevik/Eystur where there is still lots of manufacturing/mineral trades. In Metropolis (highest Minmatar system count), 1 jump from Heimatar, 4 jumps from Molden Heath and Sinq Laison. Already on the route from 0.0 to Rens. Not much further now from the 2 starter systems Rens used to be adjacent to, and closer to the third (main) one, Ammold. Full disclosure: I currently trade in both Rens and Hek (among other places) and would expect my profits to be reduced by either of them rising to more galactic significance. What's good for Eve is of greater importance than what's good for me however. Besides, I'll still be gouging customers in other locations Who needs the Nikkei when there's EBay? Lag? GTFOOJ!

Menkaure Amarr Vanitas Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.07 23:04:00 - [41] Soo, get together a bunch of industrialists and traders, and stock a specific system out with every single item ingame, you mean? Would probably work if the system was advertised - everything would probably need to be overpriced, to reduce outflow of stuff by enterprising traders, so it'd lose viability to consumer. I don't think locations that big an issue really, personally I'd take a system with good access that has as many factories as is possible. Be very interested if you attempted it.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.07 23:13:00 - [42] Hek also has access to both heimatar (2 jumps) and sing liason (2 jumps). Seems to be pretty high mineral traffic there also. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.07 23:18:00 - [43] Originally by: Menkaure Would probably work if the system was advertised - everything would probably need to be overpriced, to reduce outflow of stuff by enterprising traders, so it'd lose viability to consumer. That's a good point, didn't think about that. If you under-price stuff people will jsut buy it all up. If you over-price stuff no one will come. If you price it the same as Jita then why not just go to Jita. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.07 23:46:00 - [44] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Menkaure Would probably work if the system was advertised - everything would probably need to be overpriced, to reduce outflow of stuff by enterprising traders, so it'd lose viability to consumer. That's a good point, didn't think about that. If you under-price stuff people will jsut buy it all up. If you over-price stuff no one will come. If you price it the same as Jita then why not just go to Jita. What exactly is wrong with people buying all the stuff up? Oh yea that's kind of the point right? <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Mother Clanger M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.08 00:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Menkaure Would probably work if the system was advertised - everything would probably need to be overpriced, to reduce outflow of stuff by enterprising traders, so it'd lose viability to consumer. That's a good point, didn't think about that. If you under-price stuff people will jsut buy it all up. If you over-price stuff no one will come. If you price it the same as Jita then why not just go to Jita. I would pay a slight premium to know I could go to a system on a Sunday, find everything I need for a battleship/hac/dictor etc. and not have to waste half my time in fighting lag. That to me should be the point of this hub.
Menkaure Amarr Vanitas Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.08 01:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Dr Slurm Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Menkaure Would probably work if the system was advertised - everything would probably need to be overpriced, to reduce outflow of stuff by enterprising traders, so it'd lose viability to consumer. That's a good point, didn't think about that. If you under-price stuff people will jsut buy it all up. If you over-price stuff no one will come. If you price it the same as Jita then why not just go to Jita. What exactly is wrong with people buying all the stuff up? Oh yea that's kind of the point right? Not people, just a few traders shipping stuff out to Jita would balls the idea up. You bring in a load of T2 guns or ships or something, underprice it to attract people.... someone else buys it all up and ships it back out again. Although you're still making a profit, it would soon dry up the market and make the entire idea (a viable competitor to Jita) come to an abrupt end. You want people to know that - like Jita, you can get everything you need in this system at any time. Alot of people will still pay overpriced for a non-laggy access. Just see above.
Menkaure Amarr Vanitas Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.08 01:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Menkaure Not people, just a few traders (haha, Traders are people too! Seriously!)
Kitex Blacktag Test Labs	Posted - 2007.10.08 03:02:00 - [48] Originally by: Shadarle That's a good point, didn't think about that. If you under-price stuff people will jsut buy it all up. If you over-price stuff no one will come. If you price it the same as Jita then why not just go to Jita. I don't see any need to under-price at all. Location is everything. I, for example, have my empire HQ 18 jumps from Jita. I can't stand making the trip, but if I want to completely outfit a given ship in a single station, I rarely have a choice. Price is a consideration, but I'd definitely pay Jita+25% at a hub half the distance away, provided I was confident that everything I might need would be stocked. It's probably all academic anyway. It would require enough people to build that competition would certainly develop, resulting in goods both under and overpriced, without any real level of control. My personal inclination would be to overprice slightly. Blacktag - Buy ships / Fittings / Drones / Ammo in BULK with Delivery!
GenderBender	Posted - 2007.10.08 03:16:00 - [49] I may have missed something, but if another system effectively becomes the "New Jita" (as Jita became the "New Yulai"), won't everyone just congregate there? In turn, wouldn't we end up with worse lag in that particular system because it doesn't have it's own dedicated node?
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.08 03:31:00 - [50] Originally by: GenderBender I may have missed something, but if another system effectively becomes the "New Jita" (as Jita became the "New Yulai"), won't everyone just congregate there? In turn, wouldn't we end up with worse lag in that particular system because it doesn't have it's own dedicated node? The idea is not to replace jita but provide a competitive alternative. As long as the industrialists and traders can keep up with demand in the new hub I don't see it being a problem if someone comes in and cleans out a mineral or other commodity. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>

Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2007.10.08 06:12:00 - [51] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Menkaure Would probably work if the system was advertised - everything would probably need to be overpriced, to reduce outflow of stuff by enterprising traders, so it'd lose viability to consumer. That's a good point, didn't think about that. If you under-price stuff people will jsut buy it all up. If you over-price stuff no one will come. If you price it the same as Jita then why not just go to Jita. If everything is the same, except the population, why go to Jita? The only reason to go to Jita is the reasonable expectation the you can get almost everything there. If there's a closer place that meets that expectation, going to Jita is an exercise in frustration. I make sales on convenience more than price by this same philosophy. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Estate	Posted - 2007.10.08 07:36:00 - [52] I think this thread is making progress with the various ideas and points being made. So Hek is an already growing hub that might be able to serve this purpose. Great. But is it the best choice? As for "why not just go to Jita", as long as this hub is closer to 50% of empire than Jita, and we price things reasonably close to Jita prices, then we end up with two markets splitting empire's customer base instead of just one super market. With pricing, we could price a little low, but just price the same or a little more than Jita. If this market is closer to 50% of empire than Jita, people will use it. Also, keeping prices about the same as Jita, even a tiny bit lower, prevents the idea of non-involved traders taking everything to Jita and profiting on our goods since the difference will be small enough to be useless.
Luke Lor'aul	Posted - 2007.10.08 11:19:00 - [53] What about a .5 or .4 Jita? A Jita connected to a large Lowsec pipeline, where its in high or lowsec, would be very beneficial to players like me, who have a little lower sec status who can't go into Jita or Rens. I think the profits on a lowsec or close to lowsec Jita would be tremendous.
Kasumi Kreig Caldari United Systems Navy Infinite Innovation	Posted - 2007.10.08 11:32:00 - [54] Originally by: Luke Lor'aul What about a .5 or .4 Jita? A Jita connected to a large Lowsec pipeline, where its in high or lowsec, would be very beneficial to players like me, who have a little lower sec status who can't go into Jita or Rens. I think the profits on a lowsec or close to lowsec Jita would be tremendous. Hek is 0.5 and has a factory.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.09 00:41:00 - [55] I'm pretty sure this would never work out in a 0.4 security system. It wouldn't attract enough of the right business. I have to admit I'm partial to Hek because I already trade there. That and it has access to heimatar and sing liason easily. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Lilan Kahn Amarr The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.09 01:07:00 - [56] Tash-murkon prime. My favorit shopeing place, item not in stock in tash? go to amarr 2 jumps over or pengrima 4 jumps over
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.09 03:40:00 - [57] I think this is a wonderful idea and I'd be willing to help out with the venture. Jita's lag is one thing, but the fact that it can influence all of empire makes me despise the place. Good if you're rich enough to swing the markets to and fro. Horrible if you're anyone else. And ideally, competition is good for the customer, right? I'm understanding this to be an attempt to create another large self-sustaining hub. In order to do so, we should analyze the reason Jita rose to prominence over thousands of other systems and see if another place has those same conditions. There's many aphorisms regarding the siting of a business. Location, location, location. Build it and they will come. Truths boiled down which should be well heeded. I'll first analyze this from a demand perspective. Customers shop at Jita for a variety of reasons. One stop shop for EVERYTHING. Great prices. Ability to find rare/non market items. Close to home. As traders, we can recreate the first 3 conditions. Placing the new hub "Close to home" is simply dependent upon finding where people live. This is information I presume only CCP has; we are left to speculate. I assume that the majority of consumers fall into 2 categories: Mission Runners and 0.0 Dwellers. Jita is only a handful of jumps away from the gigantic mission hub that is Motsu. Looking around the Eve map, the Gallente area around Dodixie is 2nd largest, followed by the Minmatar area around Pator. No Amarrian system seems to stand out for missioning. From my time in 0.0, I know that 0.0 Dwellers are willing to fly insane distances to get the things they need; perhaps siting this new hub close to the south would benefit those in that half of Eve. The reason I don't include industrialists is because they aren't tied down to any particular location. Miners go where the 'roids are, and they're everywhere. Manufacturers, traders, logistics go wherever there's money to be made. It seems only mission runners are tied down to a system. Based on this analysis, the Dodixie area would be quite attractive for Missioners. For a 0.0 supply hub, the southern regions of Derelik (gateway to Curse/Providence) or Khanid (gateway to Catch/Querious) would be suitable. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any large mission regions with 0.0 access. Secondly, we can analyze this from a supply perspective. As a trader/manufacturer, the things I notice about Jita is its sheer number of manufacturing slots. 300 in system. 500 more 1 jump away. And these are almost always running at full capacity. For a new hub to really be able to take off on its own, it must have manufacturing capacity. Demand for my items does me no good if I have nowhere to build them. Since I produce consumer goods, not only will I need manufacturing slots, but I'll also need supplies. This means minerals, salvage, and T2 Construction Components. Named mods only come from mission areas as well as salvage, so proximity to a mission hub would be beneficial. Research/Invention slots don't seem to make a difference since Jita's closest are 5 jumps away. T2 Industry largely occurs in 0.0/low sec, then gets hauled into empire. Right now, the largest difference I can see between Jita and the other racial hubs is that Jita has T2 supplies. Raw, Processed, Advanced, Components, Datacores, Decryptors. Thus the further away from Jita the better. Dodixie is 15 jumps away; Rens is 25. Looking at Rens, it is the Minmatar racial hub, 5 jumps from a large missioning area, and 2 jumps from Derelik, which I mentioned earlier. It has some manufacturing capacity. After looking at all this, perhaps Rens is the best place to create a new Jita-level hub. Rens is already well stocked and built up, and many people already know about it. The only thing it seems to lack is a T2 industry. Could the solution be so simple? I leave you with this final quote - "The rewards in business go to the man who does something with an idea." Best of luck with this idea -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.09 04:03:00 - [58] Nice analysis. I think I'm gonna take a look at the data dump and see if I can find a station/system that fits the criteria so far. Namely good connections to other systems/regions and factory capacity. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Palava	Posted - 2007.10.09 09:46:00 - [59] Edited by: Palava on 09/10/2007 09:51:55 A very good read, Amicus. That somehow made me think of the law of high numbers (dunno how it is called really), from stochastics. If you test something with sufficiently enough tests, it will flatten out to a certain number or value, like an average. And in a certain way phenomenons like Jita will only be recognizable with high enough numbers, but then at the same moment it is a natural phenomenon created by the environment of EvE, created by coincidental states (like the factory capabilities, near to mission hub etc.). Perhaps the T2 good market is strong only in Jita because it has very limited numbers on the supplier side. We all know how complicated it is to set up the T2 chain, and so only the more dedicated or clever (no offense to the rest please!) are going into it. This less competetion leads to price fixing and monopolies or very small supply in other regions, where prices are noticable higher than Jita. If you want to move some T2 industries to the new hub, you will have to start with the very basics of T2 production. Just through trading and hauling you can't bootstrap it out of nowhere (unless you can abjure some profits) because anything in the new hub would still be costlier than Jita. I hope my conclusions are correct, kind regards to everyone here edit: Its a circle, like already often said, and especially true regarding the small T2 market: industrialists go to Jita because they are sure to find what they look for, and the suppliers sell there because they know their stuff sells. I have no solution how to break the circle of these loving two or how to redirect it to a new market. But I know it will take awhile...
Jin Steele Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.10.09 12:31:00 - [60] There is a much easier way that will be just as beneficial, but will take 10-20 billion in capital to start effectively probably. The answer is simple. When you undock from the 4-4 station, there is between 100-200 people stuck there trying to warp. This is because the three most common gates (new caldari, sobaseki, perimeter) are all behind the station. If we move to the 4-5 caldari navy station (i think this is the right one), it faces the other way, therefore eliminating the massive amount of people stuck outside the station, and helping immensely with the lag. If we could get enough people to start buying and selling there, it would allow more volume of trade and quicker turnover.

Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.09 17:48:00 - [61] Originally by: Jin Steele There is a much easier way that will be just as beneficial, but will take 10-20 billion in capital to start effectively probably. The answer is simple. When you undock from the 4-4 station, there is between 100-200 people stuck there trying to warp. This is because the three most common gates (new caldari, sobaseki, perimeter) are all behind the station. If we move to the 4-5 caldari navy station (i think this is the right one), it faces the other way, therefore eliminating the massive amount of people stuck outside the station, and helping immensely with the lag. If we could get enough people to start buying and selling there, it would allow more volume of trade and quicker turnover. An even better solution is to spend 10-20 billion to get a ton of people in battleships with smartbombs, then whenever a cluster of people otuside the station is large enough to have them all detonate at once and then clean up all the loot. Do that while you're telling people to go to a different hub or a diff station and people might just do it. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.09 17:53:00 - [62] Originally by: Shadarle Do that while you're telling people to go to a different hub or a diff station and people might just do it. I remember one fellow trying something similar to that. People ***ed and moaned till the GM's gave him a ban warning. They decided that sitting an Armageddon with smb's on along the flight path was griefing. So it is okay to cluster around a station in huge packs for the chance to suicide gank someone but it is not okay if you do it to a huge mass of people. Me thinks. It's A GIRL!!!!!**
Cutie Chaser Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.09 19:09:00 - [63] How about a less drastic approach? Try to get all module/ammo sales moved over 1 system. Leaving ships/manufacturing supplies in Jita. That halves the amount of people in one system while still making it conveniently. You could further divide(or differently divide) items into the surrounding systems. No reason to try to talk people into moving 1/2 across the galaxy, since each system is independently controlled it would be just as little lag that way, and people might actually be willing to do it, since it takes less effort :P *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Mother Clanger M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.10 02:04:00 - [64] It really doesn't matter that it's half way across the galaxy from Jita unless you're talking about the logistics of moving stuff out of Jita. From a consumer standpoint, all that matters is I can get everything I need in one station. There's a very simple way of getting everyone to go there too: advertising. The product (1 stop shopping) must be genuine though.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.10 02:27:00 - [65] Originally by: Cutie Chaser How about a less drastic approach? Try to get all module/ammo sales moved over 1 system. Leaving ships/manufacturing supplies in Jita. That halves the amount of people in one system while still making it conveniently. You could further divide(or differently divide) items into the surrounding systems. No reason to try to talk people into moving 1/2 across the galaxy, since each system is independently controlled it would be just as little lag that way, and people might actually be willing to do it, since it takes less effort :P because that wouldn't be creating a competing market. just moving the problem. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Nummb	Posted - 2007.10.10 03:29:00 - [66] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Jin Steele There is a much easier way that will be just as beneficial, but will take 10-20 billion in capital to start effectively probably. The answer is simple. When you undock from the 4-4 station, there is between 100-200 people stuck there trying to warp. This is because the three most common gates (new caldari, sobaseki, perimeter) are all behind the station. If we move to the 4-5 caldari navy station (i think this is the right one), it faces the other way, therefore eliminating the massive amount of people stuck outside the station, and helping immensely with the lag. If we could get enough people to start buying and selling there, it would allow more volume of trade and quicker turnover. An even better solution is to spend 10-20 billion to get a ton of people in battleships with smartbombs, then whenever a cluster of people otuside the station is large enough to have them all detonate at once and then clean up all the loot. Do that while you're telling people to go to a different hub or a diff station and people might just do it. I PROCLAIM SHADARLE AS MY IDOL I have 3 accounts with all three of them having a battleship pilot, I am down for smartbombing some haulers
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2007.10.10 09:18:00 - [67] Edited by: Stephar on 10/10/2007 09:20:47 Here's something to consider when discussing trade hubs: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=454910 I'll quote the top 20 for convenience: Quote: 1 Tokyo Japan 1191 2 New York USA 1133 3 Los Angeles USA 639 4 Chicago USA 460 5 Paris France 460 6 London UK 452 7 Osaka/Kobe Japan 341 8 Mexico City Mexico 315 9 Philadelphia USA 312 10 Washington DC USA 299 11 Boston USA 290 12 Dallas/Fort Worth USA 268 13 Buenos Aires Argentina 245 14 Hong Kong China 244 15 San Francisco/Oakland USA 242 16 Atlanta USA 236 17 Houston USA 235 18 Miami USA 231 19 Sao Paulo Brazil 225 20 Seoul South Korea 218 You can see that there are two main "trade hubs" in the real world: Tokyo and New York. Why 2 instead of 1? Because they are on opposite sides of the world and divided by the Pacific Ocean. You could have the same effect in EVE if you divided empire into two sectors, with low security in the middle... that would give EVE two very nice trade hubs. Now if you are to look at a single region, say, the USA... they would look kinda like this: 1) New York = Jita 2) Los Angeles = Rens 3) Chicago = Oursulaert 4) Philadelphia = Amarr 5) Washington D.C. = Tash-Murkon Prime Jita, like NYC, is the main hub. It's got the stock exchange, all the big buildings, and sits right on top of the ocean across from Europe. Compared to the other sub-hubs, Rens is located pretty far from Jita... just like Los Angeles. This distance makes it easier for the Rens market to develop as doesn't face as much direct competition with Jita. You also have some other nearby trading hubs in San Francisco & San Diego, similar to what you'll find in Minmatar space. Oursulaert is the main Gallente hub, sort of how Chicago is the main midwestern hub. Amarr is sort of close to Jita, and hence, somewhat overshadowed by Jita's market. Plus, Amarr is also a couple of jumps from another sub-hub with Tash-Murkon Prime. You sort of see the same thing with the major cities close to NYC (Philly & DC). Of course, this is just a rough comparison... but hubs are an unavoidable consequence of trade. The only reason that multiple hubs exist is because of distance and accessibility. EVE will always be dominated by a single hub unless you increase the distance between hubs (increase travel time) or make the hub less accessible (increase lag). And as I said earlier, you could also throw down the equivalent of the pacific ocean by dividing empire with a sea of low security, and watch hubs pop up and thrive in each oasis of high security.
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.10 10:25:00 - [68] Unfortunately I don't have the capital to take part in this kind of operation. But to add my thoughts on the matter I believe marketing is going to be a key factor to the success of this project. One of the key benefits Jita has is that it is well known. All new players are directed to Jita and players learn that Jita is where you go to get what you want at market prices. Advertise your new trade hub well enough and people will believe your trade hub has credibility and will be interested in deviating away from Jita if your new trade hub has a locational advantage.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.10 16:07:00 - [69] Originally by: Stephar 4) Philadelphia = Amarr Sorry to derail but I think it's mighty Amarran of you to claim my hometown. Grab Guns, Free Philly!!!! It's A GIRL!!!!!
Treelox Amarr Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.10 16:14:00 - [70] /continues the derailing They have only come for the cheese whiz...... -- ] [orange]signature removed (change the zombie gagging sig) - please email us (with the signature URL) if you want to know why - Pirlouit([email protected]

Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.11 09:22:00 - [71] I made a pretty deep query to find the "best" station. My analysis concludes that a new market hub could be successful in Penirgman. Penirgman: Within 3 Jumps you have access to 34 different systems with a combined total 970 factories available all of which systems are high security. Runners up included: Pasha, Kappas, and Ono I think the industrialists are really whats going to push some thing like this. Whereas the traders will probably guide it. So giving them plenty of nearby room to build stuff is important. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.11 10:32:00 - [72] Dodixie area sounds like a fairly good bet, but for the love of God don't actually set up in Dodixie! On a busy day Dodixie already has 300+ people in it, and the factories in the navy station have a permanent day-long queue for slots. Somewhere near there might not be a bad bet; maybe Eglennaert (2 jumps away). ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Palava	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:06:00 - [73] Edited by: Palava on 11/10/2007 14:06:47 Originally by: Dr Slurm My analysis concludes that a new market hub could be successful in Penirgman. But aren't the connections between Amarr and Caldari space better than between Caldari and Gallente/Minmatar? Especially Minmatar, where key systems are about 20 safe jumps from Jita. Atm I don't know how far it is from Jita, but when it is too close, or too far from Minmatar/Gallente to replace Jita, it won't grow very big. Otherwise it would have big industrial potential, as you said.
Ki Shodan Gallente deep blue	Posted - 2007.10.11 17:13:00 - [74] Originally by: Dr Slurm Penirgman: Within 3 Jumps you have access to 34 different systems with a combined total 970 factories available all of which systems are high security. If it is better, why is Amarr 2 jumps away, still the greater hub? There must be another reason than just simply more high sec systems in a 3 jump radius. Could you do the same query for Amarr? Thx. Are those 34 System in the same Region? What about Region jumps in Peni and in Amarr? I guess it is still like ants building an anthill, just put the stuff, where there is already the most other stuff. To make a local hub into an Trade hub near the size of Jita would be far easier, than making a new one out of thin air. Even given, that a few small scale producers already sit in Penirgman, but that is because there are also some labs there. -- Evemail me, if my name is used as guarantor!
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.11 17:25:00 - [75] Originally by: Dr Slurm My analysis concludes that a new market hub could be successful in Penirgman. Penirgman: Within 3 Jumps you have access to 34 different systems with a combined total 970 factories available all of which systems are high security. Runners up included: Pasha, Kappas, and Ono I think the industrialists are really whats going to push some thing like this. Whereas the traders will probably guide it. So giving them plenty of nearby room to build stuff is important. You must have some mad SQL skills to run those queries 970 manufacturing slots are handy, yes, but I think that many may be overkill. If we're going to take away half of Jita's business, then in theory we'll only need half its manufacturing capacity. There are ~800 slots within 1 jump of Jita, usually running near capacity. However the slots 2 jumps out are almost always empty. So to match Jita after half its marketshare is taken away (which would likely take a while), we'd need a site with only 400 slots. To allow for growth and ancillary factors, a site with 500-750 slots nearby would be more than sufficient, and allow us many other possibilities. Also, 3 jumps is a bit much... I manufacture 1 jump away from Jita and that's a small hassle. I can't imagine moving a freighter 6 jumps (there and back) on multiple trips for all the minerals/products. 2 jumps out would be the max distance I'd be willing to manufacture at. Just think of the time needed: Manufacturing Distance from Hub - Warps needed for Round Trip Same station - 0 Same system - 2 1 Jump - 4 2 Jumps - 6 3 Jumps - 8 8 Warps in a freighter + 6 Jumps would take around 15-20 minutes. Too much wasted time for my tastes. So perhaps run the query with 500+ slots within 2 jumps? Also, we should discuss advertising. Would something as simple as tossing out cans around Jita 4-4 that said "Avoid the lag, visit our one stop shop in XXX, region XXX. Prices equal to Jita." be sufficient? Once details are ironed out, we definitely need to bring aboard those in the Stations, Outposts Forum (the producers). We can also consider advertising on external websites, such as Eve-Files. The best possible thing would be if CCP did a news story about it, or a blog - reaches a ton of eyeballs and gives legitimacy to our project. It's in CCP's best interest that Jita's traffic be lowered, so perhaps they'd be willing to help us out. Speaking of prices, I think prices should be maintained within 5% of Jita, which is where we'll come in. Penirgman is a highly traveled spot in Domain, but it's 2 jumps away from the well established Amarr system. Pasha is also in an active area of Amarr space, in Tash-Murkon, but it's 2 jumps away from the regional hub of Tash-Murkon Prime and in a dead end system. Kappas (Lonetrek) and Ono (The Citadel) are quite close to Jita. Are there any potential areas in Gallente/Minmatar space? If not, I'll feel sorry for them once Factional Warfare arrives... -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.11 18:28:00 - [76] Originally by: Amicus Pauperi Originally by: Dr Slurm My analysis concludes that a new market hub could be successful in Penirgman. Penirgman: Within 3 Jumps you have access to 34 different systems with a combined total 970 factories available all of which systems are high security. Runners up included: Pasha, Kappas, and Ono I think the industrialists are really whats going to push some thing like this. Whereas the traders will probably guide it. So giving them plenty of nearby room to build stuff is important. You must have some mad SQL skills to run those queries 970 manufacturing slots are handy, yes, but I think that many may be overkill. If we're going to take away half of Jita's business, then in theory we'll only need half its manufacturing capacity. There are ~800 slots within 1 jump of Jita, usually running near capacity. However the slots 2 jumps out are almost always empty. So to match Jita after half its marketshare is taken away (which would likely take a while), we'd need a site with only 400 slots. To allow for growth and ancillary factors, a site with 500-750 slots nearby would be more than sufficient, and allow us many other possibilities. Also, 3 jumps is a bit much... I manufacture 1 jump away from Jita and that's a small hassle. I can't imagine moving a freighter 6 jumps (there and back) on multiple trips for all the minerals/products. 2 jumps out would be the max distance I'd be willing to manufacture at. Just think of the time needed: Manufacturing Distance from Hub - Warps needed for Round Trip Same station - 0 Same system - 2 1 Jump - 4 2 Jumps - 6 3 Jumps - 8 8 Warps in a freighter + 6 Jumps would take around 15-20 minutes. Too much wasted time for my tastes. So perhaps run the query with 500+ slots within 2 jumps? Also, we should discuss advertising. Would something as simple as tossing out cans around Jita 4-4 that said "Avoid the lag, visit our one stop shop in XXX, region XXX. Prices equal to Jita." be sufficient? Once details are ironed out, we definitely need to bring aboard those in the Stations, Outposts Forum (the producers). We can also consider advertising on external websites, such as Eve-Files. The best possible thing would be if CCP did a news story about it, or a blog - reaches a ton of eyeballs and gives legitimacy to our project. It's in CCP's best interest that Jita's traffic be lowered, so perhaps they'd be willing to help us out. Speaking of prices, I think prices should be maintained within 5% of Jita, which is where we'll come in. Penirgman is a highly traveled spot in Domain, but it's 2 jumps away from the well established Amarr system. Pasha is also in an active area of Amarr space, in Tash-Murkon, but it's 2 jumps away from the regional hub of Tash-Murkon Prime and in a dead end system. Kappas (Lonetrek) and Ono (The Citadel) are quite close to Jita. Are there any potential areas in Gallente/Minmatar space? If not, I'll feel sorry for them once Factional Warfare arrives... -AP I'll give my results another look when I get home. I don't think 970 factories is that much. I think unrestricted growth in that area would encourage industrialists to inhabit the area. I can tell you that Kappas and Pasha had access to over 1500 factories within a few jumps. Amarr also had a decent factory to station ratio within a few jumps. I think if you're looking for a minmatar system it will probably have to be rens or hek. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.11 18:50:00 - [77] I just got finished doing some lazy-ass shopping in Hek. (Quick outfitting of some l2 mission ships) I found the experience to be rewarding. The market there has developed nicely even if it is still a very pale shadow of Jita. The volume isn't 25% of the way there but the wideness of the selection. For a customer it is nice and well recommended. Disclosure: I have nothing on the Hek or Metro markets. (At this time - I may also be entering it though.) It's A GIRL!!!!!
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.11 21:06:00 - [78] Originally by: Shar Tegral I just got finished doing some lazy-ass shopping in Hek. (Quick outfitting of some l2 mission ships) I found the experience to be rewarding. The market there has developed nicely even if it is still a very pale shadow of Jita. The volume isn't 25% of the way there but the wideness of the selection. For a customer it is nice and well recommended. Disclosure: I have nothing on the Hek or Metro markets. (At this time - I may also be entering it though.) Ever since Hek got mentioned in this thread I've noticed my sales are through the roof in that system. Not sure if that is the contributing factor, but it correlates. I looked up Amarr within 2 jumps it has access to 20 high sec systems and 736 factories. Which is still pretty good. I'm not a really big fan of trading in amarr because the trade is so stagnant, but this kind of project would changes that. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 04:20:00 - [79] How do you mean by stagnant? Prices are non-volatile? Overall growth in the Amarr market has ceased? I make decent money there, as I do in every other place.. Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.12 04:35:00 - [80] I guess the amount of volume traded didn't seem like it was worth the long trip down there. I could be wrong. I haven't traded their in a while now. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>

Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.12 04:49:00 - [81] Originally by: Amicus Pauperi How do you mean by stagnant? Prices are non-volatile? Overall growth in the Amarr market has ceased? I make decent money there, as I do in every other place.. Prepare for an onslaught of competition then. Every place that gets firmly mentioned as profitable gets invaded by the lurkers. Perhaps we shouldn't mention the huge profits made in Khanid Prime? It's A GIRL!!!!!
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 04:55:00 - [82] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Amicus Pauperi How do you mean by stagnant? Prices are non-volatile? Overall growth in the Amarr market has ceased? I make decent money there, as I do in every other place.. Prepare for an onslaught of competition then. Every place that gets firmly mentioned as profitable gets invaded by the lurkers. Perhaps we shouldn't mention the huge profits made in Khanid Prime? Lurkers know this: profits can be made anywhere. So move outta Jita and show some love for the smaller hubs... you may be surprised to find that you actually make MORE than you did in Jita. And I'm not trying to deceptively coerce you... I don't spend much time in Empire anymore so there's no reason for me to lie to ya. Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 05:12:00 - [83] Originally by: Dr Slurm I guess the amount of volume traded didn't seem like it was worth the long trip down there. I could be wrong. I haven't traded their in a while now. And you're right, that's one reason I'm hesitant to setup the new hub in the Amarr area. If you look into it, the amount of people populating the Amarr area is significantly less than elsewhere. Distribution of Empire dwellers, by racial area: Caldari > Gallente > Minmatar > Amarr Amarr (the system) is the racial hub, and its volume isn't all that great. Which makes me doubt the potential of setting up the new hub in Penirgman. But then again, it can be argued that maybe people don't live there because they have a crappy, overpriced, inconsistent market. So is the low residence a result of poor market performance, or is the poor market performance due to low residence? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Personally, I think Amarr has a small population because Amarrians are filthy slaveholders who have few decent ships. On the other hand, the capitalist Caldari pigs are large in number and have many popular ships. Down with the Amarr! j/k, I don't give much thought to the RP aspect of EvE, it's just humorous. -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.12 05:20:00 - [84] Originally by: Amicus Pauperi j/k, I don't give much thought to the RP aspect of EvE, it's just humorous.-AP I don't much either however I do bend towards it. I wouldn't set up shop in Amarran space when I can do so in my Gallente homeland. (Which I do btw). I do also sell some stuff near to Rens but not in the same volumes. PS: Not all Matari come from Metropolis, Heimatar, and Molden Heath. In case you wonder about that. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 06:02:00 - [85] Holy smokes... clearly I can't play Eve and keep up with you on the forums. So I'm just going to toss this out there for everyone who doesn't know and stop posting to the forums Race - Racial Hub Amarr - Amarr Caldari - Jita Gallente - Oursalurt Minmatar - Rens Each region tends to have their own "sub-hub" as well. I'll leave it to the astute market researcher to discover those. Didn't know that some Minmatar come from Gallente space, although that would be inline with their "diaspora" backstory. So back on track... I like Minmatar/Gallente space for the new hub. Dunno exactly why, just a tingling feeling down there. And by down there, I mean in my gut. What does everyone else think? -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.12 06:09:00 - [86] Edited by: Shar Tegral on 12/10/2007 06:09:33 I'm liking Hek for a Min/Gall hub. It can be a bit dangerous in Coleile and through the Aufay pipe, alot of suiciders due to traffic volume. But it is a quick connect to Sinq, Essence, Heim, Molden Heath, Verge... a few others that are not too far off. Rens is actually good for more of a Min/Amarr hub. It's quite a bit closer to the Amatar areas and the lesser supported Amarran regions. Our-so-lagged is like Jita, age old hub. Everyone knows it and sadly most people use just the one missioning station there. I try to base any sales out of Renyn just to avoid the crowds myself. Interesting ideas though. Originally by: Amicus Pauperi Holy smokes... clearly I can't play Eve and keep up with you on the forums. -AP Multiple screens and computers allow me the freedom to carebear and pvp while posting on the forums. Yes, life is good. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2007.10.12 21:07:00 - [87] One thing to check for is accessibility to null sec entry points. Not having to resupply in Jita would, IMO, be a nice draw. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Kaaii Caldari Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.10.12 22:04:00 - [88] I haven't seen (what I feel) mentioned is the single driving force making jita what it is today... Convenience.... Its where "you can get almost anything" in one spot. People still brave the lag, buying stuff on the way in before getting there, to dock, fit and be gone, with instant ship ready modules of all descriptions. While this serves the pvp community, and to a lesser extent, mission runners, its primarily a one-stop shop to get your self fitted out with minimal running around. Couple this with your low ball sellers and you have a pilots wet dream.... Now add the budding/intermediate/advance industrialist, a pinch of tools, equipment, minerals, invention supplies and misc skills, and you've doubled the load, again by making it a one stop shop. You want to move/compete with jita, you have to cater to the "me/now I want it all right away" player, the instant gratification player, to have any chance of reducing the load on the system. How many of you/us/them folks can pony up the net worth of jita market resources, even with for thought and planning... Not many I'll wager, if any at all.. Kaaii According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.12 22:31:00 - [89] Originally by: Kaaii I haven't seen (what I feel) mentioned is the single driving force making jita what it is today... Convenience.... It has but your additions on it is very good. It's A GIRL!!!!!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.10.13 01:21:00 - [90] i support the hub to be pen but not minmatar space ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem

Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.13 03:21:00 - [91] Originally by: SiJira i support the hub to be pen but not minmatar space there's more interest in using minmatar space for the new hub so far. Can you give any compelling reasons to not locate it there? <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Mahili	Posted - 2007.10.13 08:06:00 - [92] It is apparent that building a new trade hub will probably be done by offering a wide range of supplies and by advertising. If we divide supplies into rough categories, we have : ships (built by manufacturers, who like to have mineral supplies close by), named items (supplied by mission runners, ratters, 0.0 space), and T2 items (which manufacturing I know very little about). Large regional hubs usually do a decent job of providing ships and named items from local suppliers, with a bit of help from traders. That leaves the T2 market. For me, the point that sticks the most from this thread is the practicality of Jita for everyone involved in T2 manufacturing. Therefore, it seems that the location of the new hub could be chosen for optimal convenience for those people (and probably in Gallente/Minmatar space). While I cannot provide any answer, I would ask you to consider the question of locating a new trade hub from this point of view : where would it be most convenient for a T2 manufacturer, if he/she had a choice ?
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2007.10.13 08:57:00 - [93] Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 13/10/2007 08:58:43 In the immediate aftermath of the Highways closure; Oursulaert competed with Jita to be the primary hub. Over time Jita grew and emerged as the biggest hub and Oursulaert slipped into second place. Rens and Amarr emerged the other Hubs. As more time passed Oursulaert, Rens and Amarr started to stagnate. The Coriault constellation in Sinq has eclipsed Oursulaert over the last year. Hek is looking to do the same to Rens. Hek is one jump from Minmar COSMOS cluster and therefore has a good supply of invention stuff. It has plenty of stations, factories and most services and a very good Mech. Eng. R&D agent. At 0.5 security It's a good system for POS and is surrounded by other 0.5 systems. It has multiple low sec access points within a few jumps. Coriault constellation is the closest developed cluster to the Gallente COSMOS in Algintal. The only systems between these two hives of activity are Bei, Colelie, Deltole and Aufay. Bei is the only system with plenty of stations & services. The center of mass of the Minmatar and Gallente trade hubs seem to be converging through market forces naturally. Seeding and Marketing of this area can only boost this.
Aslord	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:05:00 - [94] i thinks thats funny, so will they be an anti-jita, jita
Daeva Vios Ardent Adversary Anvil.	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:12:00 - [95] Pardon me if I've missed something, but I've gone through and didn't see anything mentioned. While it's very interesting to discuss forming a new trade hub, I think folks are forgetting that a lot of traffic is contributed by mission runners, at least in the form of supplies. (this got mentioned, but in passing) The volume of goods that enter any hub must come from somewhere. The only way to get many items is from mission-runners and ratters/explorers. To effectively steal business from Jita, the supply needs to be severely curtailed, matched by a growth in supply in the new hub and sufficient advertising. It's a nice exercise to plan it, but what about execution?
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:10:00 - [96] Originally by: Daeva Vios ... a lot of traffic is contributed by mission runners, at least in the form of supplies. The volume of goods that enter any hub must come from somewhere. The only way to get many items is from mission-runners and ratters/explorers. To effectively steal business from Jita, the supply needs to be severely curtailed, matched by a growth in supply in the new hub and sufficient advertising. It's a nice exercise to plan it, but what about execution? I don't know if we need to curtail supply at Jita as much as fully stock the new station. There are many named items that get melted down but the few that are heavily traded (Arbalest etc) can be easily imported from Jita. That's where the traders come in. And Hek is very close to the large Minmatar missioning area, much like how Jita is very close to Motsu. I'm not too sure what Angel ships drop but I have a feeling that Missile Launchers aren't one of them, so we'll have to perpetually import that item. -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Daeva Vios Ardent Adversary Anvil.	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:25:00 - [97] But how many mission runners operate in Minmatar space, as opposed to Caldari space? I think it's kinda silly to underestimate the demand for modules that are used quite a lot in missions but not so much in PvP. Jita is handy because of the supply from Motsu, but also because of the demand from Motsu and PvP combined. PvP alone can carry a minor hub but not a major one, and as far as the concentration of mission-runners goes, Caldari space has it. Nowhere else comes even close to the population that Caldari space has. Just look at the totals in both the econ blogs. Caldari space approaches 50% of total market movement, and I don't think that's solely because of Jita. I think it's a clear preference for the Caldari race and Caldari ships for mission running. Moving a hub out of Caldari space is a nice gesture, but how would you beat the fact that the Caldari race has very nice attribute distribution to start with (the best, so I hear) and the best ships for running missions at a low level of SPs?
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:14:00 - [98] The best race is actually Minmatar Seibestor, but that is an argument for another day. The answer to all your questions is propaganda. I don't think it would take much to entice some of the care bear player base to other regions. Maybe just a little advertising and spamming local. Just because your character is born one race doesn't mean you have to stay there. I think we can entice the players with a new and better market. As for implementation, that still needs to be planned obviously. At this point I don't even think we are close to agreeing on a spot of where to do it. But Hek is looking nicer and nicer. I think it would also be feasible to setup two of these new hubs at once. I don't think it would strain the logistics of the operation too much. Perhaps there could three areas of concentration: an industrial park in a strategic location, and two trade hubs. Then an organized logistics team could distribute from the industrial park to the trade hubs. This would help distribute office space and keep the costs for that down relatively. It would also allow for a lot more expansion. This would be very similar to the US and China operate currently. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:24:00 - [99] Originally by: Daeva Vios But how many mission runners operate in Minmatar space, as opposed to Caldari space? I think it's kinda silly to underestimate the demand for modules that are used quite a lot in missions but not so much in PvP. Jita is handy because of the supply from Motsu, but also because of the demand from Motsu and PvP combined. PvP alone can carry a minor hub but not a major one, and as far as the concentration of mission-runners goes, Caldari space has it. Nowhere else comes even close to the population that Caldari space has. You're right, the amount of mission runners in Minmatar space is less than Caldari. I'd estimate that that for every 3 Minmatar missioners, there's 4 Caldari. I think you may be overestimating the demand created by Missions...I've never lost anything larger than a frigate while missioning/ratting(inexperienced early days). Granted, I own a cruiser and a battlecruiser, and will probably own a battleship eventually. However, I don't see myself losing those ships. However, down in crazy 0.0 land, I've lost tons of ships. Large mission areas demand consumables - ammo, drones, and the such. The volume of consumables doesn't make up for their low material costs, therefore, I believe that PvP (and the loss of ships/mods) is the main drive of the market, not missions. Please enlighten me if my logic is at all faulty. Originally by: Daeva Vios Just look at the totals in both the econ blogs. Caldari space approaches 50% of total market movement, and I don't think that's solely because of Jita. I think it's a clear preference for the Caldari race and Caldari ships for mission running. Sit down with a calculator and the market interface, and tell me again that Jita DOES NOT make up a large majority of the Caldari market (and by extension, the universal market). I fly many Gallente ships, but I still shop in Jita. I have little preference for Caldari ships, yet I contribute to the Caldari economy. That isn't so odd now is it? Originally by: Daeva Vios Moving a hub out of Caldari space is a nice gesture, but how would you beat the fact that the Caldari race has very nice attribute distribution to start with (the best, so I hear) and the best ships for running missions at a low level of SPs? Which is why lots of people start off missioning in Caldari space. However, it's quite popular to move out and mission with other races too. I find Ravens all over empire... People travel 20+ jumps for the cheap convenience of Jita. If we can recreate that in a system only 10 jumps away from where they live, then they'd have no reason to visit Jita ever again. -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:35:00 - [100] Originally by: Dr Slurm The best race is actually Minmatar Seibestor YES! You may ignore my digression. It's A GIRL!!!!!

Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:27:00 - [101] So lets hear nominations for a new hub. We'll just assume these systems are on the table, in no particular order: Hek Rens Amarr Dodixie Oursulaert Any others? <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:26:00 - [102] Actually I was eagerly awaiting your query to see if there were any good manufacturing areas in Minmatar/Gallente space. Although realistically it'd be a lot easier to "elevate" an already popular area to "Jita status". I'm also curious to know how many people are willing to commit some time and resources to this project. Show of hands anyone? o\| Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:54:00 - [103] Originally by: Amicus Pauperi Actually I was eagerly awaiting your query to see if there were any good manufacturing areas in Minmatar/Gallente space. Although realistically it'd be a lot easier to "elevate" an already popular area to "Jita status". I'm also curious to know how many people are willing to commit some time and resources to this project. Show of hands anyone? o\| Minmatar space is a lot more sparce for factories (hint hint DEVS). In Metropolis Hjortur has access to 13 systems and 457 factories within 2 jumps. Aldilur has 451 factories and 13 systems in 3 jumps. In Heimatar Krilmokenur has 547 factories and 15 systems in 3 jumps. Pator 453, 12, 2 In Verge Vendor Sortet 568, 16, 3 Well I'm obviously interested. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.14 02:16:00 - [104] Edited by: SencneS on 14/10/2007 02:22:46 Edited by: SencneS on 14/10/2007 02:20:49 Maybe there should be some consideration for high sec moons as well. A system with the most moons in a 0.5, 0.6, 0.7, Has at least 3 stations. With a really good regional network and is high factories within 5 jumps. If there is a system with 50moons this could possibly draw more people into the system for labs, personal factories etc. Edit:- If you look at the 2D maps by Omby Page 5 is very interesting. According to the map Sinq Laison is the one region that really has the most links to other regions. You could say by looking at it, it's the center of the map. 9 Regions link to Sinq, thats more then any other region across EVE. Amarr for Life
SiJira	Posted - 2007.10.14 04:38:00 - [105] my vote remains for pen and in strong opposition to minmatar space ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.14 06:08:00 - [106] Originally by: SiJira my vote remains for pen and in strong opposition to minmatar space Well there are a lot more reasons to use minmatar space then there is amarr space. So far you just sound biased, which leads me to support minmatar space all that much more. So cough up some reasons for one over the other or be prepared to be ignored. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.14 06:44:00 - [107] Originally by: Dr Slurm So cough up some reasons for one over the other or be prepared to be ignored. He probably has the same issue I have - not really welcome in Min space, BUT I think that is a good reason to start up in a region apposed to the Caldari/Jita standings. I would rather see it in Galentte space for standing reasons but maybe the objective should be to create a hub for "Min/Gal" pilots that spend all their time mission running. With the new faction wars looking like they'll be coming Min/Gal empire WILL need a hub like Jita. That could ultimately be why Jita is Jita.. Look at the stats, more Caldari.. Why? Because they can start with more skill points, they have the Raven which is a Mission runners dreamboat, so naturally their main hub is more popular. And this does somewhat explain Amarr being pretty large. For an empire with almost the lowest player pop why is Amarr a mini-Jita? Maybe because that's the only place those thousands of mission runners can trade it. Amarr for Life
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:22:00 - [108] Originally by: Dr Slurm Originally by: Amicus Pauperi Actually I was eagerly awaiting your query to see if there were any good manufacturing areas in Minmatar/Gallente space. Although realistically it'd be a lot easier to "elevate" an already popular area to "Jita status". I'm also curious to know how many people are willing to commit some time and resources to this project. Show of hands anyone? o\| Minmatar space is a lot more sparce for factories (hint hint DEVS). In Metropolis Hjortur has access to 13 systems and 457 factories within 2 jumps. Aldilur has 451 factories and 13 systems in 3 jumps. In Heimatar Krilmokenur has 547 factories and 15 systems in 3 jumps. Pator 453, 12, 2 In Verge Vendor Sortet 568, 16, 3 Well I'm obviously interested. I'm in as well. I think you might have missed looking at both sides of the regional jump, I count 24 factory stations within 2 jumps of Hek between Metropolis and Heimatar, 42 if you go to 3 jumps. Not sure where you got your odd numbers from, it looks to me like they all have 50 slots each, so 1200 and 2100. Not my idea of sparse :) Where I work currently I seem to have the slots (and usually the whole system) to myself, and central to all 3 Minmatar regionals. Originally by: SencneS With the new faction wars looking like they'll be coming Min/Gal empire WILL need a hub like Jita. Very good point. While I'd thought enough to stem my own Amarr standings slide I hadn't actually thought about how the same applied to customers on the move rather than traders. On the other hand this will mostly apply to mission runners not PvPers. As for location, I'm also partial to Hek of course, but would make an effort to help if another location is ultimately chosen. I would however like to recommend against Sinq. As has been stated, much of the trade will be PvP customers. Also if successful getting 1 alternate super-hub running another is a possiblity. So wherever we go should be somewhat de-centralized so that they each have their own spheres of influence rather than directly competing and so that they're accessible from different areas of 0.0. Caldari (Jita) up North, Minmatar (Hek/Rens) S&E, Amarr (?) S&W. Ultimately it's about where the most customers already are that are travelling far to Jita that we could provide a SIGNIFICANTLY closer point. I don't think saving 5-10 jumps is enough for someone that already travelled 30 or more from their 0.0 home, we should be looking for 11+ from Jita. Let's settle on which corner of Empire (SW or SE) first, and then the merits of systems in those corners. Boosting an existing hub does make sense, as mentioned, but if the customers are traversing a market deadzone we shouldn't rule out a new one until we know roughly where we want it. Who needs the Nikkei when there's EBay? Lag? GTFOOJ!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.10.14 16:48:00 - [109] Originally by: Dr Slurm Originally by: SiJira my vote remains for pen and in strong opposition to minmatar space Well there are a lot more reasons to use minmatar space then there is amarr space. So far you just sound biased, which leads me to support minmatar space all that much more. So cough up some reasons for one over the other or be prepared to be ignored. making hek or rens more than they already are would just cause another dedicated node required to sustain them, there is already a huge amount of trade in nearly a line from hek to rens making penirgman the new hub would be creating something new - on the weekend there are people there - on weekdays it is merely a ghost system was your original post serious? are we to make a new hub Quote: it would be kind of fun to start from scratch. hek is already well populated are we to achieve a remarkable feat or merely bolster an already thriving trade hub that anyone with a couple billion and a few days of time could do? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:01:00 - [110] I'm going to have to alter my query. Right now it is the same data that I sold to the guy wanting to know the max buy order distances in empire with no low sec included. I should probably go back and account for that. Personally I would love to see two new hubs pop out of merely our hard work and cooperation, but I don't really see that happening. So far the general opinion in this thread has been that we should try to embolden an already used sub-major hub. I don't really have a problem with either. If we were to pick a brand new place I would want a good reason for it. Like an abundant supply of factories, moons and level 3 agents or something. What I do like about pen is that it is relatively uninhabited and has access to the most high sec systems, and a **** ton of factories. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>

SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:16:00 - [111] Edited by: SencneS on 14/10/2007 17:20:10 When you run that query make sure you account for same region restrictions. You said you can say for certain that there are no systems for 10 jumps, but when you place a buy order it's 10 jumps in that region only. It doesn't extend to different regions. There are several systems across eve that you can get 10 jumps without hitting low sec. However if you include other regions the most I could find from "The Forge" and "Domain" was about 5-6 jumps but those low sec systems where in different regions. If you have want a system look at The Forge and look at Mitsolen, it's actually 12 jumps from Ihakana the closest Low sec system in The Forge, however its only 7 jumps from Pakkonen, Pakkonen is in Lonetrek. If you accounted for this fair enough, and sorry, however I don't think you have given your statements about this query so far. Also I believe you're already doing this but you also need to consider systems with stations. Obviously a low sec system can't have a market if it doesn't have a station so they can be omitted. Same Mitsolen example - Oijanen is actually 11 jumps and is a low sec system, however you can place an buy order that reaches that system. Simply because no one can fill it. Akora is the next system making it 12 jumps like Pakkonen. Amarr for Life
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:40:00 - [112] Ok lets start over with the query: An Ideal system must: 1. Have a station 2. Not be low sec 3. Have a large amount of factories in the nereby area The dataset I have used stops at the border of regions, I could change this. I can also remove the high-sec only consideration. Any other requirements? <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:53:00 - [113] Originally by: Dr Slurm I can also remove the high-sec only consideration. Don't. There would be no serious consideration of a low sec hub by anyone. Considering freighter traffic, I don't blame them much either. (High sec ain't safe but low sec is something else entirely.) I would say that there needs to be low sec nearby with 0.0 not too far away either. Here's an idea for you. What is the number of jumps from Jita to: Amarr, Oursaleart, Rens. (Being the acknowledged capital-ish like hubs) Then have a search looking for systems that have the same kind of reach but swaps in Jita instead. (I.e. distance from Amarr, Rens, Jita). Hmmmm... even typing that it sounds complicated and unnecessary. nvm It's A GIRL!!!!!
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.14 18:04:00 - [114] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Dr Slurm I can also remove the high-sec only consideration. Don't. There would be no serious consideration of a low sec hub by anyone. Considering freighter traffic, I don't blame them much either. (High sec ain't safe but low sec is something else entirely.) I would say that there needs to be low sec nearby with 0.0 not too far away either. Here's an idea for you. What is the number of jumps from Jita to: Amarr, Oursaleart, Rens. (Being the acknowledged capital-ish like hubs) Then have a search looking for systems that have the same kind of reach but swaps in Jita instead. (I.e. distance from Amarr, Rens, Jita). Hmmmm... even typing that it sounds complicated and unnecessary. nvm I meant the high sec requirement on the surrounding systems, not the system in question. As for the second part, I really don't feel like writing a path finding algorithm today or ever for that matter. What my script currently does is pull up a list of systems above or equal to .5 security. It then iterates through each system preforming subsequent queries. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Palava	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:42:00 - [115] It was possibly mentioned ago: If you still want to start from scratch, what do you think of an Empire - 0.0 trade hub in Derelik, for example in the San Matar or Mossas constellation? Just out of the blue, Maspah for example. Factories, location (opposite end of Empire from Jita, close to Rens/Hek but far from Amarr/Sinq), possibilities for High and Lowsec POSs, close Lowsec for 0.0 logistics - and it is near to a large part of 0.0 . Any further thoughts on this?
Meleil	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:57:00 - [116] The southern regions wouldn't be a bad place at all. I'd gladly participate in this if we manage to find a system or systems to populate. ~Mel
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:23:00 - [117] Originally by: Dr Slurm Ok lets start over with the query: An Ideal system must: 1. Have a station 2. Not be low sec 3. Have a large amount of factories in the nereby area The dataset I have used stops at the border of regions, I could change this. I can also remove the high-sec only consideration. Any other requirements? For me I'd run... 1) Must be in 0.5,0.6,0.7 sec status 2) Must have lots of moons at least 30 3) Must have at least 4 stations 4) Must have level 1,2,3,4 and story line agents 5) Must have ICE Belts 6) Must be at least 10 jumps from Jita, but no more then 25 7) Must be in Min or Gal space 8) Must be in a region that has a semi-developed market already (Explain later) 9) Must be able to place at least 5 jump buy orders without intercepting low sec (Stationed) systems 10) Must have at least 250 factories within 3 jumps 11) Some asteroid belts but less then 10 so ratting isn't very popular. The reason for number 8 is, maybe the idea is not to create a new one from scratch but somehow get everyone to consolidate into a station. If you take Genesis or Everyshore they have somewhat decent marks but they are all spread out, creating a hub with everyone in here can be done anywhere, but if we can create a hub and get the "Locals" to setup shop in the same system that's a lock for a new Jita. Actually - What about Carirgnottin? Some stats It is a 0.6 system in Everyshore (Gal) It has an ICE belt It has 68 Moons Location 5 Jumps from Oursulaert 17 Jumps from Jita 19 Jumps from Amarr You can place a 5 jump buy order without hitting a low sec system 2250 Factories within 10 Jumps (11 jumps it's every factory in the region, 2300 total) 950 Factories within 5 Jumps (Another 50 1 more then it's a big cluster 400 Factories within 2 Jumps. 100 Inventions and Lab slots within 2 Jumps (160 within 5 jumps) The station I docked at had 17 open offices It has 4 Gates. Everyshore has 9 total low sec systems, 6 of which are surrounded by high sec or dead end systems, NONE of those 6 are in main pipes and can be easily by passed without any additional jumps. Amarr for Life
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:55:00 - [118] Well #9 is a bit limiting considering there are only two systems with a 7 jump no low sec limit and only 4 5 jumpers. That is quite a query to put together though. Might take me a few days. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.15 04:16:00 - [119] Where do you get the 2 systems that have 7 jumps no low sec? I only ask because I can look at the 2D maps and see plenty of systems with a 5 jump (in the same region) that don't hit low sec. As a buy order that's really all the buyer cares about "Is this going to be filled in a low sec system?" assuming they are too chicken to go out and get it. Amarr for Life
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.15 04:58:00 - [120] Originally by: SencneS Where do you get the 2 systems that have 7 jumps no low sec? I only ask because I can look at the 2D maps and see plenty of systems with a 5 jump (in the same region) that don't hit low sec. As a buy order that's really all the buyer cares about "Is this going to be filled in a low sec system?" assuming they are too chicken to go out and get it. Perhaps my data is skewed. In my spreadsheet it says Carirgnottin can only go 1 jump without running into a low sec system. I see only 4 systems where you can place 5 jump orders. This was a pretty solid query and I did double check it. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>

SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.15 05:45:00 - [121] Load up this... http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/ombey/Eve_Regions.pdf Goto page 22 Carirgnottin is on the left hand side middle of the page, that map is 100% accurate and was updated at the end of last month. I am in everyshore right now (To see factories etc) and it is correct. However, there are 2 "non-station" systems 2 jumps away, which could explain why your data only has 1 jump. Is it hitting a non-station system and canceling that route? Amarr for Life
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:19:00 - [122] Originally by: SencneS Load up this... http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/ombey/Eve_Regions.pdf Goto page 22 Carirgnottin is on the left hand side middle of the page, that map is 100% accurate and was updated at the end of last month. I am in everyshore right now (To see factories etc) and it is correct. However, there are 2 "non-station" systems 2 jumps away, which could explain why your data only has 1 jump. Is it hitting a non-station system and canceling that route? I'm not sure. I'm going to take a hard look at the script tomorrow to see what went wrong. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2007.10.16 00:34:00 - [123] Originally by: Dr Slurm Originally by: Amicus Pauperi Actually I was eagerly awaiting your query to see if there were any good manufacturing areas in Minmatar/Gallente space. Although realistically it'd be a lot easier to "elevate" an already popular area to "Jita status". I'm also curious to know how many people are willing to commit some time and resources to this project. Show of hands anyone? o\| Minmatar space is a lot more sparce for factories (hint hint DEVS). In Metropolis Hjortur has access to 13 systems and 457 factories within 2 jumps. Aldilur has 451 factories and 13 systems in 3 jumps. In Heimatar Krilmokenur has 547 factories and 15 systems in 3 jumps. Pator 453, 12, 2 In Verge Vendor Sortet 568, 16, 3 Well I'm obviously interested. Sortet or the Ammar systems nearby could be a good secondary location. It has close access to 0.0, and low sec thoroughfares to all empires. The Verge Vendor market is sparse enough that jump-starting a hub there would be relatively easy. I like the primary location near Minmatar/Gallente Cosmos systems, except for the proximity to Oursalaert. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.16 03:12:00 - [124] Originally by: Pang Grohl The Verge Vendor market is sparse enough that jump-starting a hub there would be relatively easy. I look at it from a different angle, I don't think it would be that great to try and start one from scratch. There is simply not enough on this forum to fire up a hub, even if everyone that reads this forum devoted 100% of their buy/sell orders. My personal opinion is to try and bolster a small already existing hub, one that has some decent supply already but no where near the caliber of Jita. It would be a lot easier to beef up a small hub then to try and start a new hub. That is why I thought it would have a higher chance to succeed by using a Region that has a market but doesn't have a Hub. As I looked though Everyshore's market it has a sizable number of items available spread out all over the place but no central hub. I'm sure other Regions also are similar. Of course the smaller the region the easier it would be to "Hub" as people don't need to travel as much. Most central system in Verge Vendor (A name with Vendor in it does scream marketing) is Alenia - 5 Jump buy order doesn't hit low sec, only misses 2 High sec system in the entire region - Stou (Most agents) and Amygnon. 10 Jump buy order covers the entire region (No need to train past level 3 on marketing skills. Metropolis - Most central system Tolkubad - 10 Jump range covers 61 high sec only systems. 14 jumps from Hek. For me I think it's a toss up between, Everyshore, Metropolis, and Verge Vendor, other regions for Gal/Min are already heavily developed Trading hubs. I think Verge is too small, I can't really speak for Metropolis as I don't spend any time in there. Everyshore is still my favorite, I just can't get past the somewhat developed market that is spread out with no central place other then a mission runners hub, decent connection and not too large, not too small. Amarr for Life
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.17 03:28:00 - [125] I took a look at my query. I'm not exactly sure what is wrong with it. It seems to be stopping at the regional borders for some reason. I'm going to keep debugging it. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.17 04:16:00 - [126] Originally by: Dr Slurm I took a look at my query. I'm not exactly sure what is wrong with it. It seems to be stopping at the regional borders for some reason. I'm going to keep debugging it. Well for "Buy orders" you do want it to stop at Regional Borders, for location however you want it to ignore boarders. I wish I could help you out more though I just know next to nothing about sql queries even though I have the data Amarr for Life
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.17 04:35:00 - [127] Originally by: SencneS Originally by: Dr Slurm I took a look at my query. I'm not exactly sure what is wrong with it. It seems to be stopping at the regional borders for some reason. I'm going to keep debugging it. Well for "Buy orders" you do want it to stop at Regional Borders, for location however you want it to ignore boarders. I wish I could help you out more though I just know next to nothing about sql queries even though I have the data Not exactly true. I think the script is exiting the loop when it hits a regional border. Thus is why it missed the 5 jump range in Cari. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
bluejeansandpudding	Posted - 2007.10.18 19:17:00 - [128] How ambitious is this thread? Jita moves more than some of you may fancy.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Psychedelic Party Stellar Economy Experts	Posted - 2007.10.18 19:41:00 - [129] Originally by: SencneS Most central system in Verge Vendor (A name with Vendor in it does scream marketing) is Alenia - 5 Jump buy order doesn't hit low sec, only misses 2 High sec system in the entire region - Stou (Most agents) and Amygnon. 10 Jump buy order covers the entire region (No need to train past level 3 on marketing skills. Actually, as a player living near Verge Vendor, the hub in Verge Vendor seems to be Alentene right now, not Alenia, which makes sense as there are 6 stargates leading into the system; the system has direct access to 3 lines of traffic, where Alenia is really only getting traffic from two directions. I don't remember precisely, as I'm at work right now, but I think there was more stations in Alentene, as well. Just helping with the survey! ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Estate	Posted - 2007.10.20 08:05:00 - [130] I was just wondering if there is any update on the technical numbers for potential new hubs via Slurm's script. Also, has anyone looked at the actual traffic through said potentials, to see how they scale up to the numbers and how we theoretically think hubs naturally form? Would be nice to check for unknown factors that we may be missing. I would do it but ... well, I've not been online much lately =/

Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.20 11:49:00 - [131] I've a had pretty busy week and haven't looked at the code much. Something I've done in the past is take a screen shot every 30 min of the eve map. makes for an interesting watch. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Mahili	Posted - 2007.10.20 18:41:00 - [132] Carirgnottin - or anywhere in Everyshore really - looks attractive for production, and the sector has some good agents (including some Caldari ones, curiously), but it will be a real challenge to start a trade hub there. The region is sandwiched between Essence, with Oursulaert a few jumps away, and Sinq Laison, a few jumps from Aunia where trade is currently concentrating. Also, it is far away from Minmatar space, since the high-sec route goes through Sinq Laison and to the Hek pipe. On the plus side, it is connected to the Genesis region on the Amarr side.
Daedalus DuGalle Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2007.10.26 04:53:00 - [133] Carirgnottin specific info: 7 belts in System. I doubt that's enough to support large scale production, but I guess if this gets up and running it'll be like Jita; the minerals will be shipped in. Crapload of moons. Market for goods is pretty crap. Not much available, and usually overpriced. Mineral market is not so good either. High prices relative to rest of the universe. Therefore any Anti-Jita attempts will have to either ship in minerals from another region or suck up the higher production costs for a while. 3 stations with factory slots in system which is nice. about 50% are being used, which is mildly surprising, so I guess some corps are living here already. Originally by: Chribba Buy me enough Smirnoff Ice at the fanfest and I might get too drunk and do a Britney with you
Amicus Pauperi ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 01:44:00 - [134] I've been away for a couple weeks. How has the search for a new hub been going? If the database query has hit a dead end, I'm still all for boosting Hek to major hub status -AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.11.01 02:31:00 - [135] Originally by: Amicus Pauperi I've been away for a couple weeks. How has the search for a new hub been going? If the database query has hit a dead end, I'm still all for boosting Hek to major hub status -AP I'm not sure what's wrong with my code right now. I've looked at it and it makes sense, but its a large amount of data to try to debug. It's better then Quafe!
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.01 02:38:00 - [136] Originally by: Daedalus DuGalle Carirgnottin specific info: 3 stations with factory slots in system which is nice. about 50% are being used, which is mildly surprising, so I guess some corps are living here already. hi, welcome to my home. Enjoy your visit ---------------------- sig out of order, returning soon FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 04:16:00 - [137] Originally by: Daedalus DuGalle Carirgnottin specific info: 7 belts in System. I doubt that's enough to support large scale production, but I guess if this gets up and running it'll be like Jita; the minerals will be shipped in. Crapload of moons. Market for goods is pretty crap. Not much available, and usually overpriced. Mineral market is not so good either. High prices relative to rest of the universe. Therefore any Anti-Jita attempts will have to either ship in minerals from another region or suck up the higher production costs for a while. 3 stations with factory slots in system which is nice. about 50% are being used, which is mildly surprising, so I guess some corps are living here already. Everyshore has been a low population region for a long time and is slowly starting to grow. Being close to dodixie, having plenty of slots and the region's market can still be easily manipulated are all good things. Similar jump range to hek/rens and jita. Everyshore is my home when I'm not out shooting at people. Quote: "... I doubt they would have the skillpoints and cap fleet to take and make soverignty over a large established alliance like BoB."
Caffeine Junkie Caldari The Ministry Of Funny Walks	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:35:00 - [138] Originally by: Dr Slurm I really don't like Jita, mostly because it is trendy, but also because the competition there tends to have ripple effects on the rest of the market. I'm curious if any other traders and industrialists would like to create a brand new trade hub? Part of the attraction of Jita is that it is known to have everything, one stop shopping if you will. I know that Rens already exists, but it would be kind of fun to start from scratch. Thoughts? Tell me where and I'll shop there, anything to avoid Jita. I'd imagine a lot of other players would too. Owner of the Kyonoke Pit
Fabricati Diem Burleigh and Strong	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:38:00 - [139] To keep adding to the location discussion: Would it be easier/more sustainable to take one of the second tier hubs - Ours, Rens, etc - and push it up to Jita status, rather than starting with a location that has a lower market development? At least as a first attempt at the AJ, anyway.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:10:00 - [140] Originally by: Fabricati Diem To keep adding to the location discussion: Would it be easier/more sustainable to take one of the second tier hubs - Ours, Rens, etc - and push it up to Jita status, rather than starting with a location that has a lower market development? At least as a first attempt at the AJ, anyway. only problem i see with that is if the systems around those established hubs can't support them after a point i.e. factories, missions, belts, and labs to a lesser degree. It's better then Quafe!

Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.11.18 17:20:00 - [141] This idea isn't dead. I'm still all for it, but I have to put my involvement on hold until I finish the Eve-Trader.com project. After the site is up I will come back to this project. It's better then Quafe!
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.11.19 10:09:00 - [142] By the way, when can we expect that site to be up?
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.11.19 15:22:00 - [143] as soon as its done. It's better then Quafe!


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