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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Piwat King	Posted - 2007.10.07 20:01:00 - [1] While alot of people who hover around empire (unless it's jita) generally don't get a lot of lag issues. which for them is fine. but I'd like to point out something that CCP seems to have missed. 90% of 0.0 players who are experiencing the game killing lag in fleet battles have multiple accounts. ranging from 2 up to 15 for some people (yes really I've heard a few people talk about running that many accounts) now, if lag continues to make the game unplayable, and with several new MMOs on the horizon I would suggest that you shift your focus from walking in stations, and all that crap to something that could cost you easily half your playerbase. if enough 0.0 pilots with thier MANY subscriptions (I have 4 myself and I have had enough of the lag) get fed up as I have then you are going to watch the overall game experience dwindle into nothing. this will have an impact across the entire game atmosphere for everyone. from ore prices, to ship prices to availability of everything. not to mention with the lost revenue, CCP will be forced to cut back on many other things. which will only continue to irritate players and cost them money. now people will say that won't happen. Yes. yes it will. it has already happened to several other MMO's. and where are they now? vaporware. abondon the walking in stations project, take every single person and put them into finding ways to reduce game mechanic lag, to reduce lag in general. and start spending some of that money you've been making hand over fist and invest into the comunity in this game. or watch it die. and no, you can't have my stuff.

ISD BH Desryn ISD BH	Posted - 2007.10.07 20:25:00 - [2] Edited by: ISD BH Desryn on 07/10/2007 20:27:26 The people who work on new content such as ships and walking in stations are NOT the same people who work on any speed/lag issues. Also the majority of them cant simply be moved between the two areas. As with desync, make a logserver of times that it gets laggy and submit it with a bug report. It MIGHT help. Lets Break StuffÖ [Bug Report Here]

Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.07 20:29:00 - [3] Edited by: Valandril on 07/10/2007 20:30:30 Originally by: ISD BH Desryn Edited by: ISD BH Desryn on 07/10/2007 20:27:26 The people who work on new content such as ships and walking in stations are NOT the same people who work on any speed/lag issues. Also the majority of them cant simply be moved between the two areas. As with desync, make a logserver of times that it gets laggy and submit it with a bug report. It MIGHT help. Make logserver build into client, this will make it A LOT easier to submit bugreport with log. And saying that adding new content do not slow progress in fighting with lag, is blasphemy, it will always throw more work at all teams, not only content team. --- Battlecarriers !
Arctur Gestator Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.10.07 21:28:00 - [4] Edited by: Arctur Gestator on 07/10/2007 21:28:10 OH why so many people are that dumb ? U can read everywhere on forum that they can't move them and every day there is 10 new post about moving people that can't be moved. I know that stupidity is big, extremly big but now i think it is unlimited. _________________________ Seize him, bind up him, and toss him to the ant-hill. I can do this all the day :-P
Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.07 22:13:00 - [5] Originally by: Arctur Gestator Edited by: Arctur Gestator on 07/10/2007 21:28:10 OH why so many people are that dumb ? U can read everywhere on forum that they can't move them and every day there is 10 new post about moving people that can't be moved. I know that stupidity is big, extremly big but now i think it is unlimited. No, u can't move ppl, but what you can do is put more money into it, hire outside specialists ie. that will take a look at your code, and suggest what can be optimized to make it work on better performance. --- Battlecarriers !
Jehovah Cooper Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.10.07 23:16:00 - [6] There is no outside specialist who can "look at their code" and help them fix the problem. There might be specialists who can help with certain specific areas and I think CCP does bring these people in. But a massive custom code-base and environment like Eve's will have only one place where you can find subject-matter experts who can find and fix the problems, and that is in the dev group who built the system. It would take months to bring anyone else up to speed on it, and why pay high dollar consulting fees for months just to get a guy who isn't quite as good as your people in house. However, it is simply untrue that putting resources into new content doesn't hurt performance. We see new problems with almost every new content patch - and some of these bugs are ones that will sap resources from need for speed. But what is the alternative? Fire all the content people and work on performance for a year? After that year performance will be better but subscriptions will be down and you won't be able to hire back your creatives. The OP is wrong, the vast staggering majority of accounts stay only in empire, and new features are important to keep their interest in the game (and it is important for those in 0.0 as well). The balanced approach they are following is the only reasonable course.
Solbright altaltaltalt	Posted - 2007.10.09 07:32:00 - [7] Originally by: Jehovah Cooper We see new problems with almost every new content patch - and some of these bugs are ones that will sap resources from need for speed. Well said. Originally by: Piwat King now people will say that won't happen. Yes. yes it will. it has already happened to several other MMO's. and where are they now? vaporware. I've said similar before. However, Eve has no real competitor for us to move away to. SecondLife would be Eve's nearest relative but it isn't really a game. So, for now, CCP are safe to continue with the great experiment.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.09 07:46:00 - [8] Yes, CCP do absolutely squat to fight lag Base problem is, that todays hardware cannot keep up with the freedom in EvE. If you want lag free fleet battles, CCP should setup instanced battlegrounds with a maximum limit to the number of people who can participate on each side. That my friend, in not freedom. WE chose to fight and we want to win, so we bring as many as we can. If the enemy brings just as many, we have to bring more (or we might lose the battle, god forbid), then the enemy brings even more. The numbers just keep going up. I think a good solution would be to set a cap to the number of people in fleets (say 100) and limit a system to 1 fleet from each corp/alliance (so you can have 3 fleets in 1 system, but from different corp/alliances). But again, it is against the freedom that is EvE. I have yet so se any MMO that fields a 200 man fight lag free. Have you tried a 40 vs 40? How was that? Fun? Laggy? Boring? Tough?
Stellar Vix State War Academy	Posted - 2007.10.09 09:04:00 - [9] Edited by: Stellar Vix on 09/10/2007 09:06:12 I have a great collection of games that never have lag guess what? they are offline. Lag is a result of internet communications we dont live in the age of instant communications, playing eve from the other side of the world is like haveing a 3 second delay in talking to somone on the phone. Lag is gonig to happen get over it. Sure they can optimize but there is a limit to how many they can do. and seriously when was the last game you played that allowed the display of 800+ characters all at once? SWA PVP
Stellar Vix State War Academy	Posted - 2007.10.09 09:10:00 - [10] on another note games that never updates its content become vapor ware eventually due to boredom and repitition. Also your an idiot to think that any mmo is lag free, i have experince lag with every single one of them including ones that are supposed to be dead and only a few players are still on per server. SWA PVP
Sleepkevert Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.09 12:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Yes, CCP do absolutely squat to fight lag Base problem is, that todays hardware cannot keep up with the freedom in EvE. If you want lag free fleet battles, CCP should setup instanced battlegrounds with a maximum limit to the number of people who can participate on each side. That my friend, in not freedom. WE chose to fight and we want to win, so we bring as many as we can. If the enemy brings just as many, we have to bring more (or we might lose the battle, god forbid), then the enemy brings even more. The numbers just keep going up. I think a good solution would be to set a cap to the number of people in fleets (say 100) and limit a system to 1 fleet from each corp/alliance (so you can have 3 fleets in 1 system, but from different corp/alliances). But again, it is against the freedom that is EvE. I have yet so se any MMO that fields a 200 man fight lag free. Have you tried a 40 vs 40? How was that? Fun? Laggy? Boring? Tough? Well said, very well said. Originally by: Valandril Edited by: Valandril on 07/10/2007 20:30:30 Originally by: ISD BH Desryn Edited by: ISD BH Desryn on 07/10/2007 20:27:26 The people who work on new content such as ships and walking in stations are NOT the same people who work on any speed/lag issues. Also the majority of them cant simply be moved between the two areas. As with desync, make a logserver of times that it gets laggy and submit it with a bug report. It MIGHT help. Make logserver build into client, this will make it A LOT easier to submit bugreport with log. Oh yes, lets introduce yet ANOTHER resource hog in our EVE client... As if client side lag isn't bad enough these days. I have log server logs of over 500MB (around 200000 lines iirc), and guess what, that is all stored in memory when the thing is running. So yes, let's make bug reporting easyer (for the 1000 people in EVE that know how to do it) by introducing another resource hog for other people. Sign my sig
Thrus Caldari The Phalanx Expeditionary Conglomerate Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2007.10.09 16:12:00 - [12] just an idea but if you are running 4+ accounts perhaps CCP is not to blame for your lag issues. Most residental internet connections have a crappy upload speed and good download. when you are sending commands and updating things to CCP from many clients through one connection it could well be that upload that is killing things. Examples: Verizon DSL Starter package (about $15 a month) Download = 768 Kbps Upload = 128 Kbps Verizon DSL PowerPack (about $30 a month) Download = 3 Mbps Upload = 768 Kbps Comcast Cable (about $43 a month) Download = 4 Mbps Upload = 384 Kbps gaming is a two way street and we have to be sure that we have available throughput in both directions before we start blaming them.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.09 22:22:00 - [13] The lag we have in fleet battles is NOT bandwith related, is not EVEN network related. ITs ALL server OVERLOAD. THe ammound of data eve transmits is very very very low. Any 300k connection is enough to play eve with 100% efficiency (if you dont use eve voice). If you have a vey large internet lag you will have liek 1 to 1.5 s lag. That is NOTHING on eve combat. The alg we have in battles take s MINUTES. Because server is overloaded.. A network package simply cannot find any , not a single route between any 2 other computers that will take 30 minutes to run it. Get out of your heads the idea this is connection related. Its simply processign power on the server. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.09 23:09:00 - [14] Get a clue and read a dev blog? --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.10 00:01:00 - [15] Personally I'm wholly unconvinced that CCP could not be doing more to make the game scale smoothly in high serverload environments. It shouldn't be possible to die without loading grid - period. There's no reason why the server should be putting a ship on grid, without actually sending the grid to the client controlling that ship, which currently appears to be what happens.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.10 01:13:00 - [16] Edited by: Arana Tellen on 10/10/2007 01:13:50 Edited by: Arana Tellen on 10/10/2007 01:13:32 Originally by: James Duar Personally I'm wholly unconvinced that CCP could not be doing more to make the game scale smoothly in high serverload environments. It shouldn't be possible to die without loading grid - period. There's no reason why the server should be putting a ship on grid, without actually sending the grid to the client controlling that ship, which currently appears to be what happens. Refere to my above post. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
Jehovah Cooper Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.10.10 04:08:00 - [17] Yes there are a variety of issues, but the one we complain about most are the node issues. If you have not been in a very large fleet battle you may have never seen this, but its not client lag (fps) and its not network lag (packet loss or latency). Its server processing that is constrained. Node lag gives you issues like modules unable to activate. You will never see that just because you run 4 acccounts or your ISP sucks. You will see that when in a system with 500 people trying to fight at a pos. If the node hasn't been reinforced (dedicated) you may see it in other systems as well because they share that node with busy system. While there are hardware constraints, many of the problems are software or can be solved in software. And many of the problems are new and new ones are introduced regularly. And yes fundamentally there are game design issues to overcome to figure out how to create good incentives to use smaller groups of forces. But I can't really imagine how that can work. Artificial constraints will just introduce other problems though that might be preferrable in some ways.
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.10 04:50:00 - [18] Originally by: Arana Tellen Edited by: Arana Tellen on 10/10/2007 01:13:50 Edited by: Arana Tellen on 10/10/2007 01:13:32 Originally by: James Duar Personally I'm wholly unconvinced that CCP could not be doing more to make the game scale smoothly in high serverload environments. It shouldn't be possible to die without loading grid - period. There's no reason why the server should be putting a ship on grid, without actually sending the grid to the client controlling that ship, which currently appears to be what happens. Refere to my above post. Read all dev blogs, they don't talk about it because they're not looking for it. It's not about grid simulation, it's about the fact that my ship will be on grid, without my client showing me the grid. There is no reason for this - the node should not be putting ships on a grid before actually sending them the grid status.
Stellar Vix State War Academy	Posted - 2007.10.10 06:31:00 - [19] They talk about improving game play ALL THE TIME. They spend tonns on hardware and are constantly optimizing the code, your technically playing EVE-Online 3 right now its how often they rewrote the code the game entirely. Other would argue more times. SWA PVP
Solbright altaltaltalt	Posted - 2007.10.10 11:02:00 - [20] Originally by: Stellar Vix They talk about improving game play ALL THE TIME. They spend tonns on hardware and are constantly optimizing the code, your technically playing EVE-Online 3 right now its how often they rewrote the code the game entirely. Other would argue more times. Yet the game gets more sluggish ALL THE TIME.
Solbright altaltaltalt	Posted - 2007.10.10 11:08:00 - [21] Originally by: James Duar It shouldn't be possible to die without loading grid - period. There's no reason why the server should be putting a ship on grid, without actually sending the grid to the client controlling that ship, which currently appears to be what happens. That's actually a good thing that you don't receive all data when the server is struggling. It stops the server from collapsing. Whether you should be visible to those that you can't see is another question all together.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.10 11:12:00 - [22] Originally by: Jehovah Cooper Yes there are a variety of issues, but the one we complain about most are the node issues. If you have not been in a very large fleet battle you may have never seen this, but its not client lag (fps) and its not network lag (packet loss or latency). Its server processing that is constrained. Node lag gives you issues like modules unable to activate. You will never see that just because you run 4 acccounts or your ISP sucks. You will see that when in a system with 500 people trying to fight at a pos. If the node hasn't been reinforced (dedicated) you may see it in other systems as well because they share that node with busy system. While there are hardware constraints, many of the problems are software or can be solved in software. And many of the problems are new and new ones are introduced regularly. And yes fundamentally there are game design issues to overcome to figure out how to create good incentives to use smaller groups of forces. But I can't really imagine how that can work. Artificial constraints will just introduce other problems though that might be preferrable in some ways. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=493 Quote: Early next year we are looking at replacing all our servers for the third time with some next-generation hardware, utilizing tech such as Infiniband so we can start doing something like RDMA. This is to enable solar systems to scale multiple CPU cores and even physical machines. Get ready to party because this means bastard systems such Jita and Saila should have better performance. We're not harboring any illusions, we know that regardless of the hardware there will be high-load systems, but it's a start. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.10 11:17:00 - [23] Shut up ingrateful people! CCP has done a LOT!!! The server is MUCH more stable than 1 year ago. THings that used to make a node crash last october now only make you take like 20 seconds to load. And nubmers that usually gave you 5 minutes lag now only give you less than 30 seconds lag. The new uber lag scale is because WE PLAYERS force more people in battles. OUr fleet have grown much fater than CCp can make the server grow. FAT battle is a great example. Who had ever heard of a 780 man fleet battle including almost 150 carrier all with fighters out 1 year ago? NO ONE because at that time even halkf that number would collapse node!!! CCP has done alot!!! If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

CCP Sputnik	Posted - 2007.10.10 11:41:00 - [24] Edited by: CCP Sputnik on 10/10/2007 11:41:08 We are on it CCP Sputnik CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering

Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.10 13:34:00 - [25] Edited by: Valandril on 10/10/2007 13:35:46 Originally by: CCP Sputnik Edited by: CCP Sputnik on 10/10/2007 11:41:08 We are on it... ...since 2003' /me couldnt resist :P And yea hell of good job, now instead node crash, 700ppl desync. yay I think i preffered node crash :P --- Battlecarriers !
Ol' Delsai Caldari Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.10 14:04:00 - [26] Originally by: Valandril I think i preffered node crash :P Actually you are right, since the nodes don't crah anymore, lag has become one of the major battle parameter/strategy And I don't like the sound of it
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.10 14:13:00 - [27] Originally by: Valandril ...since 2003' /me couldnt resist :P And yea hell of good job, now instead node crash, 700ppl desync. yay I think i preffered node crash :P Back in 2003 nodes could crash from 50 vs 50 and up... You really think they haven't done anything to improve it sofar? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs

CCP Atropos	Posted - 2007.10.10 14:31:00 - [28] You have to remember that 3 years ago, with the hardware back then, the players would still try and push the boundaries. Back then, the limits were 50 v 50 before the server exploded. As time has gone by, and we've upgraded the server hardware, adding in some simply mind boggling stuff (two RAMSAN's anyone?) the frontier has been pushed further back. Now we're at a point where people can physically locate up to 1000 people in a system, and push the nodes of the server beyond breaking point, and still want to do everything they normally do. Whilst it is our intention to have this capability, you have to understand just how far we've come in terms of server performance, and client improvements over the life cycle of EVE. We're always looking to improve the bleeding edge of player interaction; whether it's in Jita through the market or in 0.0 busting up a station, we want both sides of the coin to have a relatively lag free experience. However, human nature being what it is, players will always form larger and larger groupings, until an outside force steps in to limit them; in these cases the server steps in and says enough is enough (ie: dies) Hopefully the fixes and changes in each release go one step further towards allowing these ever larger player gatherings, but you know the old saying: give them an inch and they'll take a mile!

Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.10 14:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Valandril ...since 2003' /me couldnt resist :P And yea hell of good job, now instead node crash, 700ppl desync. yay I think i preffered node crash :P Back in 2003 nodes could crash from 50 vs 50 and up... You really think they haven't done anything to improve it sofar? And when i told that nothing improved ? I claim that its still broken which is fact. --- Battlecarriers !
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.10 14:41:00 - [30] Edited by: Shevar on 10/10/2007 14:41:20 Originally by: Valandril I think i preffered node crash :P Originally by: Valandril And when i told that nothing improved ? I claim that its still broken which is fact. Euhm that kinda implies yuo preferred the situation of 2003 as opposed to the current situation. Anyways to the mayor alliances complaining, how about not bringing 500 people? Honestly you know up front it will be lagged to hell and back and yet you jump in to toss a coin and see who has the least ammount of lag... --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs

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