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Alternate Accounts: The Venereal Disease of Eve?

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Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.10.10 22:00:00 - [31] Originally by: vinnymcg Having an alt doesn't have as much of an impact as you think it does Originally by: vinnymcg """Btw yes I do have an ALT and it is used to manufacture ships, research BPO's, Invent T2 BPC's and manage a corporation made up completely of alts""" And you don't think this effects players looking to manufacture, research, or invent? ---------------
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.10 22:10:00 - [32] Edited by: Aramendel on 10/10/2007 22:10:28 Could be done with your changes easily as well. YOu do not need to be online to keep a production/invention process running. Originally by: Nicho Void *What about the revenue stream?* Instead of allowing players to buy a second account, let players pay for the ability to train skills on multiple characters on the same account. Billing could be on a per character basis (say $4 per character per month) or an account basis ($12 for four per month). The current system (multiple characters, only one training) would stay, but could be upgraded at anytime, for any amount of time. Players would still be able to pay for the ability to create multiple characters. The only difference being that playing with multiple characters at the same time would be impossible. This doesnÆt solve example #5, but the rest require simultaneous connections of the characters to accomplish. Also, what about the impossibility to enforce such a change? Decided to put your head in the sand for that problem and just ignoring it?
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2007.10.10 22:12:00 - [33] Edited by: ViolenTUK on 10/10/2007 22:12:40 Originally by: Aramendel Incorrect. For example. Correct. This application doesnt work for virtually any online game. This has been tried and tested. Server admins can still see the original I.P. www.eve-players.com
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.10 23:35:00 - [34] Saying so does not make it so. Please, explain how they magically can get past proxy servers.
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.10 23:55:00 - [35] Instas were unbalancing to the Risk vs Reward system too and technically an exploit, but because everyone used them CCP just gave us WTZ instead. Restricting Alts however would be a bad move on CCP's part. The way I see it, with 2 characters you're putting 2x as much Risk in and the Reward is the same. (I for instance dual-account PvP. If a fight goes badly, I lose BOTH ships) -----
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2007.10.11 05:12:00 - [36] Originally by: Aramendel Saying so does not make it so. Please, explain how they magically can get past proxy servers. I really have no idea m8. I do know that if you use it it doesnt work. Go figure. www.eve-players.com
Rogerano	Posted - 2007.10.11 05:22:00 - [37] Haha. Oh dear. This is a silly. CCP have provided their customers with the ability to purchase and use as many accounts as they please in any way they please (within EULA or whatever). This is not dissimilar to other MMORPG providers. And good. It's the way it should be. Capitalism FTW. Watching you try to change the way CCP make money will be a short and boring contest. Besides which, this is necessary because many occupations in EVE are so mind-numbingly, batsh*t boring, that finding somebody to do them is terribly hard. And so you create an alt on another account to do it for you full time and competently. Underlying game-play (or lack of) mechanics causes the boredom, and those mechanics will never be changed in any significant way. And so alt accounts are here to stay.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.10.11 07:59:00 - [38] Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Missy Black B. Whos to say what account is an Alt unless they come forth for some unknown reason. (which why would they theres no good reason why they should. and even if there was, if there willing to pay money now, whats stopping them in the future to ahve more accounts running. Same as u ahve said below. So many characters being ownerd by one guy, all trainaing at once.. yeah,na,thanks. Of course there will always be people who break the rules. That doesn't mean that the rules shouldn't be put in place. For starters, concurrent login attempts from the same IP address could be blocked. Wouldn't really work - for example, we've got an in-house private network with a single link out, so both me and my brother appear to be on the same IP adress from outside. Of course, you could still detect we're on different computers, but meh - many people do that with their alts. So, how to make a fail-safe identification what is an 'alt' account and what is a 'main'?
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.11 09:21:00 - [39] Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Aramendel Saying so does not make it so. Please, explain how they magically can get past proxy servers. I really have no idea m8. I do know that if you use it it doesnt work. Go figure. Yet are somehow unable to prove or even explain it.
w4rped 1	Posted - 2007.10.11 11:10:00 - [40] Ok...after reading the original post and just a few of the others...here is MY personal opinion on what you have to say. As with many mmo's and even OLD school RPG's...SOME people like to run more than one charactor. In D&D it helped fill a role if you only had a small group of friends playing. Ultimately..risk and reward is NOT altered. you are still paying for skills for the other charactor..you are paying for ships..and it's the same as two players operating together as a team. one kills one hauls one loots one salvages. Not everybody has 8 years to put into this game. and speaking as someone who runs two accounts at once...it still requires the ability to multi-task. Whether you run two accounts in windowed mode or two systems all together how effectively can someone manage one pilot while the other is being pounded on and needs its drones checked, ammo checked, Hitpoints checked and whether or not he's just been jammed and needs to relock? As far as allowing only one connection from any IP that is rediculous. THink of all the people who have multiple computers networked through the house for family and friends. Principle? IF you want to spend the extra isk it takes to run a second account...which gets rather expensive...you still have to work just as hard..and it isn't as reliable as a 2 man team. A main this a main. If the alt is on a 2nd account...at least one of its three slots is being constantly trained...if someone chooses to sell that charactor (by eve's system of doing so for isk of course) that charactor still will be trained. and there the customer finds his reward for his time and money and effort into creating the clone. In order to "specialize" a pilot...you need a charactor already made that is well capable of supplying the isk to do so...which in the concept of role playing, and filling multiple roles...would be the same as a friend giving a friend some help in the game to get started so he can come duke it out with some folks. Love it or leave it..those of us paying $30 a month deserve to make use of what we're paying for. And ultimately, when it comes down to the pewpew...or the missions..or the mining..no matter the time period of doing so..we will be focusing on one charactor OR the other. as i've tried...moving my eyeballs two seperate ways at once just hurts real bad. For the most part when you're playing two accounts one of them's sitting by until your other can find a break. More productive than running 1 account? Sure if you can manage it right and not lose ships in the process. Equally productive as two actual people running seperate accounts? No way. There are how many years worth of skillpoints available in this game? I mean sure we MAY stick around the entire time to learn them all on one guy but...that's another aspect of this game...there are several paths to take..and if you're willing to put the effort or cash into doing so...then of course you should be able to reap the benefits. And as far as gank looter charactors..you could do that with an alt charactor on your account that you absolutely trained 0 skillpoints into. Personally this game would be quite tedious without my lil alt buddy. and i know of thousands who would agree.

Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:48:00 - [41] I appreciate you taking the time to read my post and some of the others. Originally by: w4rped 1 Ultimately..risk and reward is NOT altered. you are still paying for skills for the other charactor..you are paying for ships..and it's the same as two players operating together as a team. I'm sorry, but I still disagree. Increasing the amount of isk risked is not the same as increasing risk. If I field 7000 battleships and a million titans, I have risked a ridiculous amount of isk, but the fact that no one is capable of engaging me reduces the risk itself. Having an alt watch your back while mining does the same by reducing the number of pilots who would engage you. Originally by: w4rped 1 As far as allowing only one connection from any IP that is rediculous. THink of all the people who have multiple computers networked through the house for family and friends. Yes, yes, I regret typing the suggestion. Surely there are other ways though? Maybe not perfect, but doable. Originally by: w4rped 1 Principle? IF you want to spend the extra isk it takes to run a second account...which gets rather expensive...you still have to work just as hard..and it isn't as reliable as a 2 man team. Not as reliable, but much easier to arrange. Originally by: w4rped 1 In order to "specialize" a pilot...you need a charactor already made that is well capable of supplying the isk to do so...which in the concept of role playing, and filling multiple roles...would be the same as a friend giving a friend some help in the game to get started so he can come duke it out with some folks. Except in this case, the "friend" is yourself, and you aren't helping anyone else (like a new player), you're helping yourself. It's self-serving at the core, which is completely fine. Originally by: w4rped 1 Love it or leave it..those of us paying $30 a month deserve to make use of what we're paying for. And ultimately, when it comes down to the pewpew...or the missions..or the mining..no matter the time period of doing so..we will be focusing on one charactor OR the other. as i've tried...moving my eyeballs two seperate ways at once just hurts real bad. ...this is the general opinion I've been hearing and it begs the question, why then do you need an alt? Originally by: w4rped 1 More productive than running 1 account? Sure if you can manage it right and not lose ships in the process. Equally productive as two actual people running seperate accounts? No way. 1 person with an alt can become more productive than 1 person with 1 account. Sounds like the definition of imbalance. The fact that an alt won't make as productive as 2 people doesn't really have anything to do with it, other than pointing out a need for better efficiency with an alt. Originally by: w4rped 1 There are how many years worth of skillpoints available in this game? I want you to imagine an Eve where people have no hope of learning all skills. I see a lot more individual specialization, instead of cookie cutter PvP alts, mining alts, etc etc. It would spice things up if you had to make choices. Originally by: w4rped 1 Personally this game would be quite tedious without my lil alt buddy. and i know of thousands who would agree. And herein lies a major problem. Why be complacent with a tedious game, simply because you've decided to pay more to make it bearable? If those same 1000 people started drilling CCP to make their game more interesting for the individual player, don't you think things would improve? ---------------
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2007.10.11 15:06:00 - [42] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Aramendel Saying so does not make it so. Please, explain how they magically can get past proxy servers. I really have no idea m8. I do know that if you use it it doesnt work. Go figure. Yet are somehow unable to prove or even explain it. Doesnt need proving or explaining. If you and a number of people try the said application or similar applications and they dont work then this is usually sufficient for most people. I have known a number of people try out these applications and the server admin can still read the original I.P. when they connect in. This doesnt mean to say they will never work its just that in many peoples experience they tend to be ineffectual. I dont know how ccp have their eve servers set up or how a server admin looks after their security so i obviously i cant comment how effective they would be with tranquility. I do have some cologues that work in I.T. and networking that will say it is in general straightforward to block proxy I.P.s which is how the application you itemized in your post functions. www.eve-players.com
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.11 16:28:00 - [43] Originally by: Nicho Void Yes, yes, I regret typing the suggestion. Surely there are other ways though? Maybe not perfect, but doable. Like? That is your problem, you are not thinking it through. So all what you are posting are just pipedreams. Originally by: ViolenTUK Doesnt need proving or explaining. The problem think that every village moron can say "This is so." But that alone is a pointless statement. The important thing is not simply to claim something (It is on the internet, so it must be true!), but to explain why one is saying that, aka "This is so, because...". A blanket statment without proof or arguments is pretty much just hot air. Quote: I have known a number of people try out these applications and the server admin can still read the original I.P. when they connect in. This doesnt mean to say they will never work its just that in many peoples experience they tend to be ineffectual. I dont know how ccp have their eve servers set up or how a server admin looks after their security so i obviously i cant comment how effective they would be with tranquility. I do have some cologues that work in I.T. and networking that will say it is in general straightforward to block proxy I.P.s which is how the application you itemized in your post functions. Update: Decided to try this particular app with BF2. Most of the proxys simply caused time outs. One from the US allowed me to connect in to a friends server. The BF2CC showed my I.P. in England. See what i mean? That I can accept Yes, most programs will likely not work, but from a technical standpoint it is definately possible to mask your IP. "It does only work with HTTP" is just not correct. Of cource, question is if it would be worth the bother to do it for eve and/or if your average user has the means to even do it. So there is the question if such measures would be used in any significant numbers. The main problem with IP blocks is the question if you are not doing more damage than you prevent by using them. People using shared IPs is while not too common neither really that rare. Trying to use IPs as filtering option would result in a lot of collateral damage.
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.10.11 18:11:00 - [44] Originally by: Aramendel Like? That is your problem, you are not thinking it through. So all what you are posting are just pipedreams. No, my problem is that people reading this thread are focusing on the implementation, not the point. This is not a campaign for improvement of IP filters. Phase 1: Address problem, raise awareness. Phase 2: Push CCP to remedy the situation. You know, allow the people with the budget and the technological expertise to figure out an acceptable solution. ---------------
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.11 19:20:00 - [45] Exept it does not work that way. There are solveable problems and there are problems which are unsolveable or where the cure has far bigger negative impacts than the disease. Anything you could do to limit alt accounts is something of the latter, not the former. As said, its a pipedream. No, "surely there is a way" is not a general principle. Welcome to reality.
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2007.10.11 21:14:00 - [46] The Answer: Karma. Basically, any slot on the account has it's own Sec Status. Regardless of how many times characters are deleted and reincarnated, that Status follows them into their new life. Obviously characters with bad "Karma" would be spawned far away from noob zones. Obviously there's still the abuse of raising sec status through ratting, but that adds a timesink a ganker would rather not have to face, especially with a fresh noob character skillset.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises	Posted - 2007.10.11 22:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 11/10/2007 22:32:34 Originally by: Carniflex Don't be lazy. Creeate your own 'alt' with timecode and join the real players. You can buy it for isk Does it take effort to do so ? Yes if does. But as you pointed out in your post rewards are there if you put in some effort. Effort? I think money is more fitting. Apart from that I find 800k SP market and science alts more irritating. It really devalues those professions. _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Tral Kul	Posted - 2007.10.11 23:58:00 - [48] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 11/10/2007 22:32:34 Originally by: Carniflex Don't be lazy. Creeate your own 'alt' with timecode and join the real players. You can buy it for isk Does it take effort to do so ? Yes if does. But as you pointed out in your post rewards are there if you put in some effort. Effort? I think money is more fitting. Apart from that I find 800k SP market and science alts more irritating. It really devalues those professions. Devalues them HOW? See this is the probelm I'm having with you, you're not really offering any help you're just whining and saying 'it must go away' without really thinking though how you would do, why you should do and how you're going to break it to a sizeable number of people that thier alt accounts (and I've heard of people that run way more then 2) are gone.
Solant Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.12 09:15:00 - [49] Edited by: Solant on 12/10/2007 09:22:28 Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: vinnymcg Having an alt doesn't have as much of an impact as you think it does Originally by: vinnymcg """Btw yes I do have an ALT and it is used to manufacture ships, research BPO's, Invent T2 BPC's and manage a corporation made up completely of alts""" And you don't think this effects players looking to manufacture, research, or invent? umm... no? please explain to me how it has any negative impact on them, aside from the fact that there is someone else out there producing crap. how is it any different from any other character? does the fact that said industry alt has a main who is skilled in combat change the experience in ANY way for random_industry_dude_01? it really doesn't. this is one of the dumbest posts ive seen in here in a long time. basically what you're getting at is there isn't enough cake to go around in eve, but there is currently WAY more than enough cake to go around... so shove it. the underlying problem with this change, is that it has to be something you START your MMO with. you cannot allow players from day 1 to have as many alts as they want, and SUPPORT alts for years through programs such as the power of 2, then all of a sudden one day just pull the plug and royally screw hundreds of players out of something they have built over several years of gameplay. it is not enough to simply ship said characters onto one account (notwithstanding the fact that many players have 3+ accounts) because you cant DO anything with those characters now. the fact you haven't even considered this, proves to me that you are blindly posting this without applying any intelligent thought at all. which makes me regret wasting my time posting a reply.
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.10.12 15:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Solant umm... no? please explain to me how it has any negative impact on them, aside from the fact that there is someone else out there producing crap. You hit it on the head. There is someone else out there producing crap. I'm really at a loss for words as far as explaining this more clearly. John is a PvP'er who buys his mods. Mary is an industrialists who makes money from selling things to John on the market. John decides to make a production alt to manufacture all of his **. Mary loses out. I think it's pretty simple to understand, but maybe I'm just missing something here. Originally by:** Solant how is it any different from any other character? does the fact that said industry alt has a main who is skilled in combat change the experience in ANY way for random_industry_dude_01? it really doesn't. You're damn right the main doesn't matter. It's the alt! Dude, seriously, you're artificially flooding the professions with characters that will produce and sell exclusively to main accounts, or undercut up and coming producers. It throws everything out of balance because at the end of the day, it's still just an alt...if margins are down, you can make them up on the main account. Originally by: Solant this is one of the dumbest posts ive seen in here in a long time. basically what you're getting at is there isn't enough cake to go around in eve, but there is currently WAY more than enough cake to go around... so shove it. Good to see you're sticking to the high ground and avoiding flames. Post somewhere else if you can't keep your frustration in check. Originally by: Solant the underlying problem with this change, is that it has to be something you START your MMO with. you cannot allow players from day 1 to have as many alts as they want, and SUPPORT alts for years through programs such as the power of 2, then all of a sudden one day just pull the plug and royally screw hundreds of players out of something they have built over several years of gameplay. I've never advocated an abrupt change. That withstanding, why the ** not? This game has seen more nerfs than I care to count. What about those players who skilled for a specific thing only to have it changed? Change happens. Yes, it would be a big change. Yes, some people would be ed. This is why I'm trying to facilitate discussion, so that we could come to a conclusion that is acceptable to both parties. Originally by:** Solant it is not enough to simply ship said characters onto one account (notwithstanding the fact that many players have 3+ accounts) because you cant DO anything with those characters now. I've offered the suggestion of unlimited character slots as a solution. As far as usefulness, why not? The characters can do everything they were skilled and created to do...except concurrent use, which is what this all comes down to. If this were an 0.0 gank whine thread, the phrase would be "Get some friends, noob!". Originally by: Solant the fact you haven't even considered this, proves to me that you are blindly posting this without applying any intelligent thought at all. which makes me regret wasting my time posting a reply. Here's a tip sport: When you encounter an opposing opinion, don't label it as unintelligent and storm off, it makes you look juvenile. If you can't discuss something like an adult, go play with your toys. ---------------

Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.10.12 15:35:00 - [51] Originally by: Tral Kul Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 11/10/2007 22:32:34 Originally by: Carniflex Don't be lazy. Creeate your own 'alt' with timecode and join the real players. You can buy it for isk Does it take effort to do so ? Yes if does. But as you pointed out in your post rewards are there if you put in some effort. Effort? I think money is more fitting. Apart from that I find 800k SP market and science alts more irritating. It really devalues those professions. Devalues them HOW? See this is the probelm I'm having with you, you're not really offering any help you're just whining and saying 'it must go away' without really thinking though how you would do, why you should do and how you're going to break it to a sizeable number of people that thier alt accounts (and I've heard of people that run way more then 2) are gone. I'd like to point out the part where you say, "and I've heard of people that run way more then 2", and then point you back to "Devalues them HOW?". This seems like the definition of devaluation to me. When more of something becomes available, doesn't the existing supply become less needed? ---------------
Stakhanov Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.10.12 15:43:00 - [52] Alts were allowed in the very beginning of Eve. It was a poor decision , but it's too late to change things now. Originally by: F'nog One does not simply log into Jita.
Yamichi Wiggin Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 16:03:00 - [53] At the end of Page 2, we get (I think) the first person who actually agrees that alts are a bad thing. Doesn't that imply that perhaps your perception isn't quite accurate? We've gone back and forth on the risk/reward thing and I still say that having two ships in a belt doesn't reduce or change the risk/reward issue. Yes it reduces the chances of you getting hit by a solo pirate because it reduces how many of them will be willing to jump you solo. But as I explained earlier, my reward does NOT increase linearly with what I've risked. I risk MORE (iske, game time, ships) than I gain. between them, they seem to balance out. Bottom line remains to me that your problem is accurate- Risxk:Reward isn't balanced. I think your cause is grossly inaccurate. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body. There is no love in fear
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.10.12 18:01:00 - [54] Edited by: Nicho Void on 12/10/2007 18:04:03 Originally by: Yamichi Wiggin At the end of Page 2, we get (I think) the first person who actually agrees that alts are a bad thing. Doesn't that imply that perhaps your perception isn't quite accurate? It's tough to tell. A large portion of the argument is, "This can't change, it's too hard. Besides, alts don't hurt anything." As if the ideal itself is secondary. If we could wait on the "how" and focus on the "why", we might get somewhere. Originally by: Yamichi Wiggin Bottom line remains to me that your problem is accurate- Risxk:Reward isn't balanced. I think your cause is grossly inaccurate. We're obviously not going to see eye to eye here, which is fine. Instead, come at it from the angle of a new player looking to specialize in trade. Doesn't the existence alts make this chosen player's profession less desirable? If you don't think so, I encourage you to watch the General Discussion forum for a few days. Someone will inevitably post about how they're new and they want to get into trading or production. The responses will politely tell that player that everyone has alts for that stuff and that they should focus on mining, mission running, or PvP. Those threads are the reason for this discussion. I find it sad that the complexity of Eve gets reduced to so little. EDIT: Originally by: Alz Shado The Answer: Karma. Basically, any slot on the account has it's own Sec Status. Regardless of how many times characters are deleted and reincarnated, that Status follows them into their new life. Obviously characters with bad "Karma" would be spawned far away from noob zones. Obviously there's still the abuse of raising sec status through ratting, but that adds a timesink a ganker would rather not have to face, especially with a fresh noob character skillset. I think this is an excellent idea. ---------------
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.12 20:33:00 - [55] Originally by: Nicho Void If we could wait on the "how" and focus on the "why", we might get somewhere. Not really. A discussion always has to be about both. An idea can be great, but if it is totally unimplementable it is still pointless. Ignoring a problem won't make it solve itself. If you are stuck with it now you will be stuck with it later.
Yamichi Wiggin Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 20:55:00 - [56] Edited by: Yamichi Wiggin on 12/10/2007 20:56:10 Originally by: Nicho Void It's tough to tell. A large portion of the argument is, "This can't change, it's too hard. Besides, alts don't hurt anything." As if the ideal itself is secondary. If we could wait on the "how" and focus on the "why", we might get somewhere. To be fair, I've never said a word about the how. I've left that to other people. I'm focused solely on the why of the matter. I think that alts aren't the reason for people saying "don't start out aiming for production" and such. My main is a year and a half old. My alt is about 8 months old. I'm considered young in my corp/alliance. even without alts, somebody with that many SP is going to be better at stuff he's 'dabbled' in than you will be at a month old. The typical way of starting the game is to find things you like and push to get good at it. Invention, production, etc take a while to get profitable. You need standing with corps to get the cores. You need the ability to fly decent combat ships to run the complexes to get the advanced skillbooks or you need a lot of isk to purchase them. To be a successful trader, you need to know the market and you need some isk to make your initial purchases. The FASTEST way to get good at that stuff and attain the resources to get started is... missions, ratting and mining. So as a noob, your fastest route to doing what you want is running missions and playing the market for practice. Just like real life. Most of us don't turn 16 and jump into a CFO position of a major research firm. We start out doing simple tasks and learning where our strengths lie. That's how noobishness in Eve is erased. By experience. The presence of alts may exacerbate this but it's certainly not the cause of it. it gives the noobs a slightly taller ladder to climb before they can go pay cash for their Titan but that's about it. Edit: no idea why this is in italics... the switch is only on one word... ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body. There is no love in fear
Plekto Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.12 22:00:00 - [57] The real problem is that people in real life are buying and selling stuff in-game. It all boils down to this, and currently there are three huge holes in CCP's security. 1:Trial accounts can interact with the real paid accounts economically. This allows throwaway account to generate real ISK and items that can be traded to other players. Solution: Trial accounts cannot interface in the economy in any meaningful way and with other players economically AT ALL. All items when it is converted to a real account are lost and the player only gets to keep their skills and a newbie ship. 2:Time Cards. #1 leads to people using this ISK to buy time cards. This effectively kills any profit on that account for CCP! The real account has long-term staying power and forms the hub of a real-life ISK buying and selling franchise. Free trial accounts were turned into real world money. Oops. Solution: No more time cards to be sold online or traded. CCP sets up a money order system and they mail out one time card at a time to those without credit cards. The numbers are linked to that user by CCP and can't be traded. 3:Alts allow a player who has a mind to, to effectively do the same thing because they are not regulated(makes macros a snap to use). Alts aren't bad, in themselves, so much as alts should only be allowed on credit card based accounts. ID must be verified so that you don't have tons of alts in China and elsewhere from time card based accounts. You pay with a real banking account for three months or more at a time? You can have an alt. We'll even give you a special price. Do all three of these and isk selling will be rare. If any one is left unchanged, it won't stop the problem. In order to regulate out of game isk selling and Chinabots(tm) and the like, we all must take this sort of nerf. P.S. WHY isk selling is bad is because if your enemy can but a Dread once a week with isk they got out of game($30 or $40 a month, considering insurance costs), you'll never compete. The "sandbox" has a hole in it, essentially.
Yamichi Wiggin Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.12 22:11:00 - [58] Problems: 1- Not much of a trial if you don't get anything from it. Why bother? That's two wasted weeks of gang time. Could knock out a fair amount of learners in that time. Could get started on low level missions with that. LOTS of things that you can do in two weeks and having it all taken away would be horrible. The idea of setting up a trial server is one that has been tossed around but I don't like it. That's like test driving a car in a simulator. blehhhh 2- What you said here doesn't even make sense to me. I quite literally don't get how you go from GTC to real world money maker. you pay real money for a GTC and you sell it for ISK. Or you buy it for isk. Only CCP is allowed to sell them for actual money. so no revenue lost there. If I farm a complex then why not get somebody else to pay for my subscription? And as for your solution. Sending an e-mail is free. Sending actual paper mail or whatever (this is what it sounds like you're advocating) costs a fair amount. And it adds up to a LOT when you think of how many thousands of GTCs they'd be sending and to how many countries they go. That's just silly. You're thinking in the wrong century. 3- This just doesn't make sense either. My main is over a year old. I make good isk. If I want an alt and don't want to pay money for him but I have ISK to spare, why shouldn't I be able to fund my alt off my in-game income? Again, somebody else can pay the real money to CCP and I can pay them the isk. btw- start a thread. don't hijack. This thread has (thus far) been a (mostly) intelligent debate about the impact alts are having on the Eve economy and the Eve experience. Your post is pretty much preaching about isk selling. There are a lot of posts about how to get rid of isk sellers. Go spam them. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body. There is no love in fear
Plekto Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 00:15:00 - [59] Originally by: Yamichi Wiggin Problems: 1- Not much of a trial if you don't get anything from it. Why bother? That's two wasted weeks of gang time. Could knock out a fair amount of learners in that time. Could get started on low level missions with that. LOTS of things that you can do in two weeks and having it all taken away would be horrible. The idea of setting up a trial server is one that has been tossed around but I don't like it. That's like test driving a car in a simulator. blehhhh That is what a TRIAL is. Why it's important to disconnect the two is because of how it ties into #2. Quote: 2- What you said here doesn't even make sense to me. I quite literally don't get how you go from GTC to real world money maker. you pay real money for a GTC and you sell it for ISK. WRONG. You use a free account. You mine with it using a macro. You take the minerals and transfer them to another player. That player sells those for a load of ISK. With 3-4 trial accounts, you've made enough to buy a time card. With the time card account, you make enough with macros to never have to pay for the game. THAT'S how it's done. They get real game-time, which is used to generate ISK which they sell for free because you can give what you do with the trial accounts to other players or sell it. This isn't one guy in Sheboygen doing it, it's hundreds of people in Asia at once generating money as a full-time job. No, thousands. Spoof an IP and log in with fake ids as a trial account. EVE is one of the few games in the world that allows you to make in-world money and items on trial accounts that caries over/can be sold(like it being against the rules is going to stop them) Quote: Sending actual paper mail or whatever (this is what it sounds like you're advocating) costs a fair amount. And it adds up to a LOT when you think of how many thousands of GTCs they'd be sending and to how many countries they go. They would only go to North America and Europe, essentially, since it would require hard cash via Western Union otherwise and that's going to KILL the "ChinaBots" right there. The reason they do it is because they can get isk for nothing and isk is worth(checks Sparter) Roughly $10 or 250 million ISK. 25 million ISK, no matter HOW it's made in EVE is worth $1 in the real world. I'd like to also point out that Congress in the U.S. and the E.U. in Europe certainly will be taxing online games and selling if they can in the next few years. If this isn't stopped, in a few years, EVE might actually be charging you a tax for isk you make in-game. (oh, look, I just got everyone's attention) Quote: 3- This just doesn't make sense either. My main is over a year old. I make good isk. If I want an alt and don't want to pay money for him but I have ISK to spare, why shouldn't I be able to fund my alt off my in-game income? Again, somebody else can pay the real money to CCP and I can pay them the isk. Because this loophole causes far far more problems than it ever solves. The truth is, yes, it will suck, but it has to be done in order to get rid of the problem. And if you think I'm joking about taxing in-game income, just wait. And, it is relevant as well. getting rid of or severely limiting alts has to be done for many reasons, but the tie-in with sellers and farmers also is part of it(and reason enough, actually) Look, if I had my way, I'd get rid of them entirely, but CCP isn't going to ever do that, so less restrictive compromises have to be worked out.
Tral Kul	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:21:00 - [60] Originally by: Nicho Void I'd like to point out the part where you say, "and I've heard of people that run way more then 2", and then point you back to "Devalues them HOW?". This seems like the definition of devaluation to me. When more of something becomes available, doesn't the existing supply become less needed? And I'd like to point out you've still not answered my question. Your position is that the mere existence of the account devalues all other accounts of that profession, I find that ridicilous. People still have to have the time to actually use them, not to mention an account is an account you've not shown how the fact that say Bob over there who happens to have 2 accounts is harming the game for John who only has one. More over some people run more then 2 accounts because they set up speciality characters like for example setting up a combat assistance character that sololy focuses on leadership skills and warefare links or a cap ship pilot or a scienctist or a manufacturer or ....... Let's face it there's countless ways to specialize in EVE and by specializing new players can actually compete with the veterans (so if anything you're arguement is the other way around because the new player actually can compete sooner). If you can't put together a consistent, logical and reasonable arguement for how alts are a 'veneral disease' then I'm done wasting my time.



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