Originally by: Kernel

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Second: they had lost those stations. As seemingly everyone in the game who doesnt have you blacklisted has pointed out, they could not win the final fight. It was numerically impossible.

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Originally by: DeTox MinRohim

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Originally by: marakor

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...

---

Took you 20 pages to finally spill your same old song. You're losing your touch mate.

-------------

---

Originally by: Celdorae

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Anvil., Angels of Discord, CORE, Dark Matter Coallition, Ekliptika, Event-Horizon, Fallout Project, Insurgency, IRON, Invictus, Ka-Tet, Morsus Mihi, Mordus Angels, Mostly Harmless, Pandemic Legion, Peons of Doom, Pure, RA, Razor Alliance, Roadkill, Rule of Three, Nxt Level, Smash Alliance, Stela Polar,Synchronizerz, TCF, The Makhai, Hydra Alliance, Fate. Corp, Te-KA,Vae Victis. The Covenant Alliance, Prismatic Refraction, The Reckoning. Phoenix Allianz, The Makhai.

---

Originally by: Platinum Sapphire

---

By the way, the spin I am seeing here (and on the SHC boards) from BoB reminds me a lot of the following scenario:

Husband> "Aww, c'mon baby, I didn't mean to hit you. I mean, look.. the bruise isn't even that big... Baby, please don't leave me... I promise never to hit you like that again..."


At least M.Pire has the brains to leave that relationship...

---

Originally by: Gungankllr

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Edited by: Gungankllr on 11/10/2007 11:32:02
I can confirm that last week prior to all this I turned down a Goon offer based on us wanting to remain loyal to BoB.

Too bad they didn't feel that we were worthy allies.

---

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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Originally by: Temerlyn

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Wow, Just Wow...

Ive read other forums now on the same subject and i am impressed with the assumptions.

We are out for ourselves, so is everyone else, why are we any different.

Income comes from 0.0 space.

Both parties offer the exact same thing except....

Goons offer it for free.

In both scenarios, with who ever we go with we would have to fight for the right to own that space. Thing is with bob i thought we already earned some of that.

Yes ego's got the better of us, on both sides. We started ratting, you said get out blah blah blah...

we made a mistake on that front sure but BoB immediate reaction was to slap us down.

42 bill was a miss communication sure. Thing is when i started this i knew it was 6 billion. But thats 6 billion more than we wanted to pay.

When goons approached us its because we had a relationship with ex ascn members. Its the who you know scenario there. As we stated we said no as we already had a side. This cant be proven at all but it is the truth.

Bob you just need better diplomats.

But realistically it does not matter.

Even had you guys been uber nice to us it still would of cost us 6 billion a month. 6 billion more than what we wanted to pay.

But for an alliance to survive it needs 0.0. Only place left to turn to was goons. lo and behold they extended an olive branch. We looked at it and wrote up a list of requirements for us to accept such a deal.

They gave us every single one.

Bob, you cannot beat that deal, you refuse to.

But i am getting beyond myself here. this has been epic in so many ways. More than any of us expected. The public support has been surprisingly overwhelming in and out of coad.

So thanks to all friends and enemies alike, this is gunna be hella fun.

---

This is a pretty interesting post in that it more or less confirms BoB's story. The Goons bought you out, and your price for switching sides was 6 bil a month. I have complete understanding for looking after your own alliance first, but this thread has all been about trying to lay the blame on BoB. The fact is that you turned away from your long term allies because of 6 bil a month.

Note that you don't know what it will cost you to live in Goon territory in the long run.

I always liked M.Pire, and I thought you did a great job holding us off in the north, but this turncoat deal as tarnished you. Of course the coalition will jump on this, claiming you're not turncoats and that you have "seen the light", but as you yourself have admitted here, you turned on your allies because of isk. Well done.

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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I would have hoped you would have at least understood the "price" part of my post, but I will clear it up for you. BoB wanted 6 bil for a constellation. M.Pire said "No and just for that we're joining Goons". Thus the price for joining Goons was 6 bil.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Huh? The price for switching sides is 6bn? Interesting reading comprehension.

The way I read it, MPire didn't ask for 6bn nor did Goons offer it. It was BoB demanding 6bn isk for 'friendship', whatever the **** that means in their twisted little world. What kind of friend is it if they charge you 6bn a month?

---

I'd say it is your reading comprehension that is lacking, particularly the "reading between the lines" part. What you are saying is that BoB wanted M.Pire to pay 6 bil a month to stay friends, but that is blatantly untrue. BoB offered a rent deal for a constellation for 6 bil a month. M.Pire could have accepted the deal and inhabit nice space behind the lines. They could have declined the deal and continued to fight, and perhaps get to carve out some space for themselves, maybe even their old LV space. They could have declined the deal and claimed neutrality in lieu of low income due to lack of space. What they chose is instead to ally themselves with their old enemies and turn on all of their friends.

I would have hoped you would have at least understood the "price" part of my post, but I will clear it up for you. BoB wanted 6 bil for a constellation. M.Pire said "No and just for that we're joining Goons". Thus the price for joining Goons was 6 bil.

---

You make no sense. There was no deal therefore there was no price. You're implying that if BoB had demanded 1bn and MPire would have turned it down, they would be even greater sellouts because they 'sold out for just 1bn'? What I see is BoB insulting MPire to the core by that 6bn offer.

What you BoB-alts continue to fail to see is that this whole renting **** is what is going to kill you. Aside from the MC I guess, there is noone on your own side you respect, except if they continue to be good little boys and pay you. That is what is biting you in the ass and you still don't seem to grasp it.

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Originally by: Velios

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oh god, pyramid-style quotations have started to emerge since marakor got involved. It will be one page per post soon.

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Originally by: Lee Bian

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Originally by: JeanPaul Sartre

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Keep blues on your overview M.Pire .. regardless of the 26 pages.. many will distrust you now and forever.

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or maybe just not ask them to pay to fight with them

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Originally by: marakor

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Id say a razor/mm nap and back to branch maybe on the cards as they seem to be getting along and giving each other pats on the bottom about the fighting lol maybe this was the plan all along as fatal had just put up a new outpost and the surrender was not even discussed with them.

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Originally by: mamolian

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Originally by: marakor

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HEHE i just found my post on the "what happens to MPIRE now" thread



Originally by: marakor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Id say a razor/mm nap and back to branch maybe on the cards as they seem to be getting along and giving each other pats on the bottom about the fighting lol maybe this was the plan all along as fatal had just put up a new outpost and the surrender was not even discussed with them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ok i was out by a alliance or so but the basic idea was there and i suppose the BOB offer of a safe-ish system for 6 bil a week gave them the excuse to drop a dolly and say it was all BOB's fault for forcing them to be goon b*tches.

If the PVPERS in MPIRE cannot see they were manipulated by STK and the carebears amoung them so they could get nice safe systems to build their super capitals in then they are dumber than even i thought. This has been coming since the titan nerf put allowed the goon blob to actualy work.

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Cmon keep posting **** for brains, I'm hitting F5 every few mins in an attempt to snatch post 1000!

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Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

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just ignore marakor, I only remove him from the ignore list when I want to read some badly written and poorly thought homoerotic fanfiction, just to remind myself how pathetic he is (he will probably reply to this post too, eh eh).

Welcome aboard m.pire

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Originally by: Murukan

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Originally by: marakor

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Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

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just ignore marakor, I only remove him from the ignore list when I want to read some badly written and poorly thought homoerotic fanfiction, just to remind myself how pathetic he is (he will probably reply to this post too, eh eh).

Welcome aboard m.pire

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dun dun duuuun

Nice to see the moron with the blocker he actualy turns off to read what he wants to block is still ******** enough to actualy brag about it. LOL NOW THAT IS WHAT I CALL THE DEFINITION OF PATHETIC AND SELF IMPORTANT.

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do you know how to write a coherent sentence? Gosh you're a ******* idiot aren you not?

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Originally by: dralid

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Originally by: marakor

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Originally by: Murukan

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Originally by: marakor

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Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

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just ignore marakor, I only remove him from the ignore list when I want to read some badly written and poorly thought homoerotic fanfiction, just to remind myself how pathetic he is (he will probably reply to this post too, eh eh).

Welcome aboard m.pire

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dun dun duuuun

Nice to see the moron with the blocker he actualy turns off to read what he wants to block is still ******** enough to actualy brag about it. LOL NOW THAT IS WHAT I CALL THE DEFINITION OF PATHETIC AND SELF IMPORTANT.

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do you know how to write a coherent sentence? Gosh you're a ******* idiot aren you not?

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If you can read it and understand it then who cares apart from petty ****ers w
ho cannot argue a point apart from a critique on abstract crap.

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BoB Alt Alert!

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Originally by: Akelorian

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So instead of looking through 34 pages, can someone give me a breakdown of everything thats happened? and I better not get RockRoll'd again..

/me hates Zastrow now.

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Originally by: Orree

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Originally by: marakor

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Originally by: Celdorae

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Anvil., Angels of Discord, CORE, Dark Matter Coallition, Ekliptika, Event-Horizon, Fallout Project, Insurgency, IRON, Invictus, Ka-Tet, Morsus Mihi, Mordus Angels, Mostly Harmless, Pandemic Legion, Peons of Doom, Pure, RA, Razor Alliance, Roadkill, Rule of Three, Nxt Level, Smash Alliance, Stela Polar,Synchronizerz, TCF, The Makhai, Hydra Alliance, Fate. Corp, Te-KA,Vae Victis. The Covenant Alliance, Prismatic Refraction, The Reckoning. Phoenix Allianz, The Makhai.

---

I see a lot of names here and yes over the 5-6 months these guys may have shot a gun or two at you but lets be honest making out that for 6 months all theese guy were constantly attacking you and that you were worn down eventualy after a long and bitter war is a total fabrication. The largest fleet that came against you was when razor and buddies attacked with tri and we had about 400 ships total. You repulsed that attack and it was days if not weeks before razor and buddies came back with a better plan and tri were nowhere near bkg and razor fleets were considerably smaller than 400.

---

You're absolutely right in that many of those entities contributed very little, if anything to the overall campaign in the North. The list major, active players is far shorter than a lot of peopel seem to want to admit.

Where you're missing the boat is that is wasn't about numbers OR Triumvirate. The major difference in the success of the third offensive was that for the FIRST time, the final assault on BKG was part of a larger plan--- well-organized, well-orchestrated and far more determined than the earlier assaults on V7-M1D and BKG. Those first assaults were basically off-the-cuff, hastily prepared operations. The first attack on BKG was carried out with other objectives in mind and those objectives were actually successful from our point of view, even if the assault itself failed to secure BKG for our side.

Yes...they seemingly folded to a smaller force, but the plan under which that force operated was better in every way. Couple with that the fact that it was coming after months of pretty steady pressure, and you have a situation where these guys were at a breaking point and saw very little reason to continue to be subjected to the onslaught. My guess is that if they had felt like there was any hope of reinforcement, they might have tried to stick it out. There really wasn't, so they didn't.


However...this thread isn't about any of this. It's about shabby treatment in the face of service and sacrifice. It's about the consequences of that sacrifice. It's about proof of what many of us have been saying for a very long time.

---

Originally by: Cringeley

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Originally by: Lipix

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41 pages? srsly?

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It's possibly one of the most significant moments in recent Eve history: a corporation that had been willing to operate alongside BoB publicly exposing them for what they are, and at the same time displaying the virtue of self respect and independence for all to see.

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Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam

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Originally by: Kryztal

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We are arrogant and our allies and friends know that, we also show respect to those that show us respect.

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With an attitude like that, I see very hard times ahead of BoB. By the looks of things it seems the number of alliances who respect BoB is getting smaller and smaller each day.

It was about time.

Originally by: Kryztal

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We gave m.pire our respect and got nothing but smack back. With attitude like that your better suited on the other side anyway.

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M.pire "behaved" nicely in the North and even though they had to retreat, they did it gracefully. Many of us Northeners appreciate it.

Good choice empire!

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Originally by: Cringeley

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Originally by: Matty Walker

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Funny how that prediction turned out, isn't it?

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I'm being 100% serious when I say that if DBP and a few other BoB trolls hadn't pushed us so hard and been so arrogant, we might have evaporated by now. They forged us into a blade aimed at their own hearts just because they couldn't shut up.











*trolls the **** out of RISE*

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Originally by: Avon

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Since it is an old timer like you Boonaki, I'll answer.

The 6bil/month deal was a rental offer for space.
It had nothing to do with being allowed to fight with MC and BoB, or maintaining standings, or anything like that.

It wasn't a demand, "pay up or die", or anything like that, just a simple business offer.

They could have easily made their own alternative arrangements, or accepted MC's offer of a free staging point, but instead they rushed to CAOD and announced their defection, claiming that BoB was demanding 6bil per corp to continue fighting ... almost as if it was a cover story ..
Whilst untrue, this disinformation was warmly accepted by the coalition, because it is what they wanted to hear.
It made good ammunition to use against other "pets", ie: BoB will make you pay or turn on you; and: you can say no to paying rent too!; rather than the more honest message: You too can betray your allies, join the bad guys, lie about your reasons, and then be treated like heroes!

But, whatever.
In all honesty I am happier with STK on the other side, and some people in the m.pire leadership also; but I do feel for a lot of the members of the alliance. It is clear from their posts in this thread that they haven't all been told the same story, and I think they probably deserved better than that.

I know the leaders of that alliance have to do what they think is best for their membership, what's left of it, but I am not sure what they thought was best actually was. Even if switching sides was the only way to survive, I feel that the way they went about it did more harm to them than good.

I hope they survive, and I hope they prosper, and I truely hope they bring it. Unfortunately I am not convinced.

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Originally by: Xenuchrist

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Edited by: Xenuchrist on 18/10/2007 23:42:12
1st! -Oh wait...

Originally by: marakor

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The 6bil isk was an excuse/drama bomb used by the leadership and carebear members of STK/MPIRE to switch to what they consider to be the winning side of the war. It has been on the cards since the titan nerf allowed blobbing to be successful subsequently allowing goon/allies to push BOB back.

There are plenty of areas in eve for an alliance of STK/MPIRES size to go had they chosen to officialy reset standings to BOB but they have instead chosen to ally/hide behind RA/GOON. Couple this with the surrender in BKG that was done without losing a single of the six outposts and without informing or consulting their allies who were actualy in battle at the time shows an alliance leadership that due to RA/GOONS big push decided to switch sides.

I believe this is because the loudest voices in STK/MPIRE are those who wish a nice bit of defended/safe space to build their super capitals and carebear in and they doubt they can find this on the BOB side of the fence any longer and do not have the nerve or belief in themselves to find it on their own.

---

Wow. Just wow. Even for a forum smack alt, there's no law prohibiting having actual points... -or just making sense. (Your quoting BOB's Dark Lord/Head spintress, now see if you can take some pointers from him as well.)

At the time this occured, Lower Catch was fallen/falling and CAOD was full of discussions about the impending colapse of IAC, and even the beginning of the end of the Coalition itself... Surely it would be much safer for us evil plotters, if we waited a little longer to see how that played out? No?

--

---

Originally by: Avon

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Finally, you seem to ignore any possibility that your own diplomats may not have been the most 'diplomatic' people, despite numerous references to that by M.Pire.

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Heh, I never commented on it actually - not by design, however.
M.Pire were treading on BoB's toes, and worse, trying to cut in to our arrogance monopoly! I wouldn't be surprised in the least if our diplomats were less than diplomatic.

However, BoB's offer (which they didn't have to make at all), was not the only allied offer on the table - it was just an alternative option extended to them.

I am genuinely curious as to why they shunned MC's offer, and refused to even talk with them on TS (posting here instead), and didn't even mention it when explaining the situation.
Why did M.Pire feel that abandoning their allies in the North should entitle them to space which other people either stand and fight for, or pay to use?
They are the first to claim that they were fighting with MC, not BoB, and yet BoB, not MC, should support them when they fail? And when they don't, they are somehow disrespecting them?

And what ever happened to all the indignation shown towards those alliances which can't take and hold their own space? I thought they didn't deserve to be in 0.0?
Isn't that the claim which the coalition level at BoB "pets"?
The whole situation is a marvel of coalition hipocrisy, both about "Pets" and e-honour & e-respect; and I love it.

---

Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Originally by: Avon

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However, BoB's offer (which they didn't have to make at all), was not the only allied offer on the table - it was just an alternative option extended to them.

---

Maybe this is the critical point. Are you sure that M.Pire was aware that this was just an alternative to living with MC?

Of course you also might want to consider that the offering of the option in itself could be construed as a pretty grave insult.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Originally by: marakor

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Edited by: marakor on 19/10/2007 11:16:12

Originally by: Malachon Draco

---

Originally by: Avon

---

However, BoB's offer (which they didn't have to make at all), was not the only allied offer on the table - it was just an alternative option extended to them.

---

Maybe this is the critical point. Are you sure that M.Pire was aware that this was just an alternative to living with MC?

Of course you also might want to consider that the offering of the option in itself could be construed as a pretty grave insult.

---

Ask yourself this bud.

A alliance that was on your side had just bailed on its coalition without informing them in fact while these said allies were actualy in battle in system and as such costing six outposts without actualy losing a single one in battle.

How much value would you put on said alliance and membership other than a bit of income?. They could hardly be depended on to hold the line or even trusted to not negtiate a separate peace behind your backs if things looked to be even slightly difficult.

GOON may value such members but i think that most would consider them a liability and a flaw that could widen over time and spread into your own ranks instead of a benifit. Id say that this is the most inportant point ppl seem to be missing in all this.

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If the attitude from BoB is like yours, and they considered M.Pire more a liability than an asset, surely they are happy to see them on the other side? More easy targets.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Originally by: marakor

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

---

Originally by: marakor

---

Edited by: marakor on 19/10/2007 11:16:12

Originally by: Malachon Draco

---

Originally by: Avon

---

However, BoB's offer (which they didn't have to make at all), was not the only allied offer on the table - it was just an alternative option extended to them.

---

Maybe this is the critical point. Are you sure that M.Pire was aware that this was just an alternative to living with MC?

Of course you also might want to consider that the offering of the option in itself could be construed as a pretty grave insult.

---

Ask yourself this bud.

A alliance that was on your side had just bailed on its coalition without informing them in fact while these said allies were actualy in battle in system and as such costing six outposts without actualy losing a single one in battle.

How much value would you put on said alliance and membership other than a bit of income?. They could hardly be depended on to hold the line or even trusted to not negtiate a separate peace behind your backs if things looked to be even slightly difficult.

GOON may value such members but i think that most would consider them a liability and a flaw that could widen over time and spread into your own ranks instead of a benifit. Id say that this is the most inportant point ppl seem to be missing in all this.

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If the attitude from BoB is like yours, and they considered M.Pire more a liability than an asset, surely they are happy to see them on the other side? More easy targets.

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Perhaps they did and considered them only worth a bit of profit but the fact is you did not answer the question or do you dispute my facts?.

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I was not there in the final weeks of the fight between M.Pire and the Northern Coalition forces. But from what I hear, there was nothing left to defend. BKG was completely overrun, and with it, the strongest defended position that M.Pire/the new North had.

But I can't comment on your facts, since I have no exact knowledge of what happened. I can imagine that what you call 'the facts' are what BoB perceives to be true, while I also think that M.Pire has a completely different view of 'the facts'. I'm not even sure 'the facts' even exist in this case.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Originally by: marakor

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Your claim that they spent months under heavy attack is total fiction cos i was there and even if it was true it does not excuse there betrayal of their allies who were actualy in battle in this "capital system" when they negotiated a secret and seperate peace without even consulting their allies and reset standings.

That betrayal is a stain on a reputation that will never rub off but then to drama bomb BOB because of an standard rental offer saying was an insult to their honor/pride/self respect is a hipocracy that defies belief considering MC's free space offer and if you cannot see that its because of the side your on and nothing else.

Oh and BOB/RAGOON both can kiss my ass and if there was a third power block (whitch i think there should be in eve) id join it and shoot both the ****s.

---

Listen, I wasn't there so I can't give any real opinion on how it exactly ended. Maybe M.Pire are a bunch of sad losers and gits. They don't seem to be that to me, but what do I know? The only point I am trying to make is that if BoB treats them like that, they should not be surprised about how it turned out.

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Originally by: Avon

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Originally by: Orangir

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Originally by: Avon

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Who exactly is trying to save face here?

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Pretty much just you, considering almost the entire Eve community has come out in support of M. Pire's decision.

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Show me the figures.

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Originally by: Faith Black

---

Originally by: marakor

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And perhaps the bailing on the new north without consulting coloured the BOB diplo's opinion.

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Truth is, the New North didn't owe anything to BoB and BoB didn't owe anything to us.
We've been fighting each day over months for our space that we didn't get from BoB. If we owe someone something, then MC. They are really the only one, who could ask us to explain us, but think Seleene is a realist and not pointing the finger at us so easily.

Afaik communication with the rest of the gbc was a bit laggy anyway since the beginning, a fact that we quite early accepted, which I interpreted as not being really needed or important enough. So basically we had our fights and their theirs, which brings me also back to the 1st point: BoB doesn't/didn't owe anything to us and we not to them. They can't complain to us for losing in the North.

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Originally by: Cringeley

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We all want this thing to hit 50 pages, and the truth and a point of view from sombody who is not total proGOON and anti-BOB is exactly the way to achieve it.

---