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Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.10.13 09:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Solant Look, I'm really sorry to break it to you, but you're wrong and your posts in here have misinformed people. Just quit while you're ahead please. i didnt misinform any1. - i said that i prefer to waste 2 month first and then getting skills faster, and with faster i mean the FEELING i have when a skill takes 11 days instead of 13. - i said that i dont give a crap about what "advantage" other players might have over me, and what this mentioned "advantage" is suposed to be, as an older player will allways have it - i also said that every1 will like it different - and finally i said (like others who agreed) to every1 go and try evemon and GET A CLUE. and finally i might add that i have players in the corp who have played for 2 years and started over now... and what did they do? get their learning skills up first. and should i believe some bigmouth in this forums before believing what a trusted senior player is telling me PLUS evemon agrees? stop the stupid arguing, specially when you have no clue what you're talking about. for those with still a doubt, do as some1 suggested: get evemon, make a skillplan for 9-12 month without learning skills maxed and with learning skills maxed and see the difference for yourself. but ofc, if you're the typical 10y old wow player, with the attentionspan of a hyperactive weasel and you dont know if you'll play this game for 1 week or 1 decade... then go ahead, skip learning skills.
Solant Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:54:00 - [32] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: Solant Look, I'm really sorry to break it to you, but you're wrong and your posts in here have misinformed people. Just quit while you're ahead please. i didnt misinform any1. - i said that i prefer to waste 2 month first and then getting skills faster, and with faster i mean the FEELING i have when a skill takes 11 days instead of 13. - i said that i dont give a crap about what "advantage" other players might have over me, and what this mentioned "advantage" is suposed to be, as an older player will allways have it - i also said that every1 will like it different - and finally i said (like others who agreed) to every1 go and try evemon and GET A CLUE. and finally i might add that i have players in the corp who have played for 2 years and started over now... and what did they do? get their learning skills up first. and should i believe some bigmouth in this forums before believing what a trusted senior player is telling me PLUS evemon agrees? stop the stupid arguing, specially when you have no clue what you're talking about. for those with still a doubt, do as some1 suggested: get evemon, make a skillplan for 9-12 month without learning skills maxed and with learning skills maxed and see the difference for yourself. you really dont get it. go to evemon, you say. look at skills with learning to 5 and without. obviously, yes, you will have lesser skill training time due to the fact that you have more stat points. but you still spent 2-3months for those extra 1 to 2 skillpoints. i dont care what your senior players say, I dont care what ANYONE says, this is simple mathematics, and if you dont get it, im sorry for you. fact: spending the extra 2+ months to max out your learning skills will land you at the same spot another player that didnt max said skills out in about 3 years, give or take. if you want to go for the long haul, all the power to you.. at the end of that 3 or 4 years, you will have the upper hand. but for any new player, its really not the highest priority, and at the very least can wait until the end of your first 6 months or year with very little impact, overall. I assure you, I have every idea what I am talking about, there were massive posts on this topic 3 years ago when I first started playing. Oddly enough, noone at the time seemed to have as much trouble grasping the concept as you. Quote: but ofc, if you're the typical 10y old wow player, with the attentionspan of a hyperactive weasel and you dont know if you'll play this game for 1 week or 1 decade... then go ahead, skip learning skills. Well, I've been playing since early 2004. So I have a pretty solid grasp on how long I'll be playing. I guess that makes me 6-7 years old when I started playing, by your estimate? lol.
Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:07:00 - [33] jesus christ how ****** and stubborn can ppl. be? i wont explain for 9837245987345235th time that i dont care a flying ** that i am "ZOMG TWO MONTH BEHIND" to some1 who started the same day as me and i probably dont know and will never meet. all that matters to me is that NOW that i play actively, my skills proceed faster. and now GTFO allready, smartass
Zubana	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: Solant Look, I'm really sorry to break it to you, but you're wrong and your posts in here have misinformed people. Just quit while you're ahead please. i didnt misinform any1. - i said that i prefer to waste 2 month first and then getting skills faster, and with faster i mean the FEELING i have when a skill takes 11 days instead of 13. - i said that i dont give a crap about what "advantage" other players might have over me, and what this mentioned "advantage" is suposed to be, as an older player will allways have it - i also said that every1 will like it different - and finally i said (like others who agreed) to every1 go and try evemon and GET A CLUE. and finally i might add that i have players in the corp who have played for 2 years and started over now... and what did they do? get their learning skills up first. and should i believe some bigmouth in this forums before believing what a trusted senior player is telling me PLUS evemon agrees? stop the stupid arguing, specially when you have no clue what you're talking about. for those with still a doubt, do as some1 suggested: get evemon, make a skillplan for 9-12 month without learning skills maxed and with learning skills maxed and see the difference for yourself. but ofc, if you're the typical 10y old wow player, with the attentionspan of a hyperactive weasel and you dont know if you'll play this game for 1 week or 1 decade... then go ahead, skip learning skills. no i agree completly with Kayna, train your advanced learning skills to level 5 and you can be as neurotic too
Ed Anger Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:56:00 - [35] can someone lock this already? this thread is officially pathetic.
Lord Perdition	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:08:00 - [36] I 100% agree with Kayna Eelai. I have all basic skills + all advanced ( expect charisma ) at lvl 5 It feels great if ya know, that ya have done everything to max your training time. Theres no more "i could have done it faster if i had ...."
Nozomi nrvqsr Les chevaliers de l'ordre	Posted - 2007.10.14 05:02:00 - [37] I made a 3 years+ plan in evemon, with skill I think I'll train in the future, from a scratch (well, almost) toon. Drawn our own conclusion. Oh, the plan is available here, if you want to check it.
KiiLLa	Posted - 2007.10.14 08:42:00 - [38] Edited by: KiiLLa on 14/10/2007 08:45:34 Originally by: Kayna Eelai jesus christ how ****** and stubborn can ppl. be? i wont explain for 9837245987345235th time that i dont care a flying ** that i am "ZOMG TWO MONTH BEHIND" to some1 who started the same day as me and i probably dont know and will never meet. all that matters to me is that NOW that i play actively, my skills proceed faster. and now GTFO allready, smartass Think of it as competing against yourself. If you train all learning to V you will be behind yourself on useful skills and wont catch up until youre 3 years into the game. Scenario 1 Train all learning to IV. Train all learning to V - 2 months. Train a short-term skill plan - 1 month. You spend 3 months and have X applicable skillpoints. Scenario 2 Train all learning to IV and stop at that. Train the same short-term skill plan - 1 month + 5% = 1.05 months. You spend 1.05 months and have the same X applicable skillpoints. After 3 months you will have 95% of 3*X applicable skillpoints. That means you can have a lot more fun with new ships and equipment even faster, although you dont get the feeling of uber-fast learning that you get from all learning V. P.S.: I dont guarantee the correctness of the calculations, but the general picture is still there. For short term plans a 5% margin compared to the absolute differences is very-very small. P.S.2: FYI, insults make your point look all the more immature.
Thonn	Posted - 2007.10.14 12:58:00 - [39] this has nothing to do with training times, it's all about 'are you an obsessive compulsive or not?'.
Simrod	Posted - 2007.10.14 14:21:00 - [40] .
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.15 01:13:00 - [41] Wow, Kayna, stop posting. training skills... :(
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.10.15 11:43:00 - [42] Edited by: Pottsey on 15/10/2007 11:44:50 ô Originally by: Solant spending the extra 2+ months to max out your learning skills will land you at the same spot another player that didnt max said skills out in about 3 years, give or take.ö ôOriginally by: Kayna Eelai behind yourself on useful skills and wont catch up until youre 3 years into the game. ö Wrong and wrong as your not factoring in all the new skills that come out in 3 years. There are plenty of examples where you end up with more useful skill points after spending two months training to adv5 as you trained new skills. Its not 3 years to catch up. ItÆs the guy without adv5 who has to spend years catching up but never does. I have adv5 now and if I spend 6months training all the new skills that come out in November I am way ahead in useful skill points then the copy of me without adv5. Every time you train a new skill that came out after you got adv5 then you pull ahead. Passive shield tanking guide click here
RaTTuS BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.15 12:08:00 - [43] Sigh! if it is your only account then I suggest 4/4 and then do skills to want to play for. - do the extra 5's when you want if it is a 2nd account and you are then you may as well go for 5/5 if you plan on using that account for 3years + the main thing is to have fun - -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve [Now Verified] & RaTTuS Home
Kera Va'Tauri	Posted - 2007.10.15 17:45:00 - [44] Can someone explain to me where they are getting this magical 3 years time frame from? Lets look at it this way: Depending on your base attributes, it payoff varies between 18 million skill points and about 23 million skill points in the attribute that you trained. Lets take this character for example. I trained to Clarity 5 (I.E. Adv Perception 5). I'm ahead of where I would have been at lvl 4 once I've trained 22.5 million skill points in perception skills where Perception is the primary attribute. (or 45 million skill points if I only train Perception as the secondary attribute). In other words, if you haven't started training any perception skills, and you plan on training battleship 5, the support gunnery skills, and Tech 2 turreted weapons, you're not too far away from being better off training Clarity 5 than just leaving it at 4. Its NOT a 3 year pay off to make Clarity 5 worth it. My very rough calculations shows about 380 days to pay off for my character, and I think my estimate is too high. The same logic can be used for the ADV Memory learning skill as well. If you plan on training Drone Interfacing 5, Drone Durability 5, and the first tier learning skills to 5, you're not too far off from paying off ADV Memory 5. ADV Int 5 is a little harder to justify, but if you plan on taking the comp skills to 5, shield or armor repping skills to 5, the fitting skills to 5, and the cap skills to 5, that might make ADV Int worth while. I know my character has apx 5 mil skillpoints in Engineering and maybe 2 mil in Electronics, so I haven't broken even from ADV Int 5 yet, but I'm almost half way there. ADV Willpower 5 is another questionable one. I've already shown that you're going to pay off ADV Perception 5 in around a year, which means thats already half way to paying off ADV will 5. Train HAC 5 and Command Ships 5, and you've pretty much paid off ADV will 5. ADV Charisma 5 is pretty hard to make worth it. Train Fleet command to 5 and the rest of the leadership skills to 5, and its worth it. Max out the trading skills and mission running skills and it might be worth it. But overall, you're probably best leaving Charisma at 4/4, at least until some new skills are implemented.
Nabar Phargal Gallente Anqara Expeditions The OSS	Posted - 2007.10.16 02:53:00 - [45] I made a skillplan with almost all spaceship command (included 5 days of leadership) that would take me 410 days, 2 hours to complete. I have all the basic learning at V and the advanced at IV. If I put Clarity V on the front of that it brings the training time down to 410 days and 10 hours. If I add Focus V on the front it becomes 416 days, 12 hours. I would have to train a different skill group to recoup the cost of the other advanced learnings. Add another 450 days training other things and it adds up to about 3 years. That is an example of the amount of time it takes to recoup the investment in advanced V for all skills. Pottsey will claim that the advanced V will let him train up levels of Marauder faster than the rest of us. If I'd trained up the advanced V learning when I started this character a year ago, I still wouldn't be in a T2 BS as soon as I will be since I didn't train them. Maybe I'll regret it next year. shrug
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.10.16 06:36:00 - [46] Edited by: Pottsey on 16/10/2007 06:37:07 ôPottsey will claim that the advanced V will let him train up levels of Marauder faster than the rest of us.ö Not just T2 battleships if youÆre a drone pilot youÆre going need drone bandwidth or you might not be able to use all your drones and there are tons of other new skills being added. WhatÆs with all this talk of skill plans that last years? Last time I checked almost everyone changeÆs the plans all the time and adds new skills. When ever you change the plan or add skills adv5 is an advantage. Most people try a new career path 6+months down the road having adv5 means learning that new path much faster. EDIT: What about when T3 arrives? learning adv5 will be great for that. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Cortei	Posted - 2007.10.16 08:24:00 - [47] Amazingly enough, what I'm learning in finance applies to this situation. The payback period for taking advanced learnings to 4 takes about one year. PP for adv. learnings to 5 is about three years. Taking no learnings at all gives you a PP of no time. What would matter would be how long you're planning to play the game, so you could determine an internal rate of return. From there you could determine a Net Present Value for investing the time for the learnings. The Net Present Value would determine which path would be worth it. I'll post my situation when I have the time. Maybe with a graph or rate vs. NPV. My Hypothesis would be that if you stuck around for a period of about 5 or more years, that the NPV of learnings to five would outweigh learnings to 4 by a large amount. It's a hypothesis, so I could be wrong. Note, Net Present Value is exactly that. The amount its worth to you now for the investment given. I guess I could apply the NPV to the monthly expense, but I'd rather not do that.
Turk Turkletun	Posted - 2007.10.16 08:25:00 - [48] I think your decision about advanced skills is best taking it stat by stat. Lets take my new character for example; It is going to take me roughly eleven days to take Clarity to five. And by my calculations it will take under a year of perception skills to make that time up. Since this character is going to primarily focus on combat, i think it is worth it. On the other hand, it will take me roughly sixteen days to take Eldetic Memory to five. So it will take me a lot longer to make that time up. And i wont be using Memory nearly as much as i will be using Perception, so i do not plan on taking Eldetic Memory to five. All that being said, i do understand the psychological gratification of having learning skills maxed, and knowing you're getting max sp/hour for your character. Also this character is being made as an alt, so i still have my main to keep me occupied through all of this, so that helps too.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.10.16 09:55:00 - [49] ôOriginally byCortei The payback period for taking advanced learnings to 4 takes about one year.....ö Payback is meaningless what matters is which gives the most useful skill points. Adv5 can give more useful skillpoints in as little as 6 months. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Nabar Phargal Gallente Anqara Expeditions The OSS	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:46:00 - [50] Originally by: Pottsey ôOriginally byCortei The payback period for taking advanced learnings to 4 takes about one year.....ö Payback is meaningless what matters is which gives the most useful skill points. Adv5 can give more useful skillpoints in as little as 6 months in a skill that is introduced in a patch. I added the caveat Pottsey left out Let's define useful skillpoints. Here's my definition: Skillpoints that have an application besides getting you more skillpoints. By my definition a theoretical me that trained all the advanced learnings to V as soon after creation as possible could not possibly have as many useful skillpoints as I do now. By my definition, the only possible way for the useful skillpoint balance to come before the oft calculated payback period has passed would be for CCP to seriously overhaul the whole skillpoint system.
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.10.16 13:54:00 - [51] Training Advanced learning to 5 will only pay off after 3 years....it's not...hard to understand...... Very very simple, here. Or so it should have been! Geez! Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last And that's why I love that homely boat!
KiiLLa	Posted - 2007.10.16 13:59:00 - [52] Fine, fine. I rest my case and wont argue any longer. Let 'em overconfident hyperactives train up a worthless 21 ranks of skills up to level 5 and stare proudly at their shiny 20 mil sp, when by that time ill have only 18 mil and all of it will be spent in combat skills that have practical applications. Suits me, less competition = more killmails. ^_~
Mister Doom	Posted - 2007.10.16 14:01:00 - [53] Edited by: Mister Doom on 16/10/2007 14:01:58 I am proud of it.
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.10.16 14:08:00 - [54] Excellent stats. I sure wouldn't mind those! Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last And that's why I love that homely boat!
Chromakey Dreamcoat Caldari Model Of Aggression	Posted - 2007.10.16 17:36:00 - [55] Edited by: Chromakey Dreamcoat on 16/10/2007 17:36:03 Originally by: Mister Doom Edited by: Mister Doom on 16/10/2007 14:01:58 I am proud of it. Just because it looks good or makes you feel good doesn't mean it's sensible or even smart. But I guess we have to define what's "smart".
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.10.16 17:53:00 - [56] ôBy my definition, the only possible way for the useful skillpoint balance to come before the oft calculated payback period has passed would be for CCP to seriously overhaul the whole skillpoint system.ö I can think of another way for you to have more useful skillpoints. You trained adv5 then train to use a rail gun ship. 7months later you corp changeÆs goals and you want to try as a gang assist pilot, or stealth pilot or perhaps a cargo pilots. Having adv5 means you can change paths much easer and end up with more useful skill points then if you had adv4. Yes if you never change career paths adv5 might not be wroth it. But if you change paths and learn new things which most people do then adv5 is worth it. As you didnÆt know 7months+ ago that you where going change paths, you couldnÆt have trained those new skills instead of adv5. ôLet 'em overconfident hyperactives train up a worthless 21 ranks of skills up to level 5 and stare proudly at their shiny 20 mil sp, when by that time ill have only 18 mil and all of it will be spent in combat skills that have practical applications.ö ItÆs more of a case those with the so called worthless skills can learn all the new PvP ships and max out those skills weeks before you do. Giving them the advantage. ôTraining Advanced learning to 5 will only pay off after 3 years....it's not...hard to understand...... Very very simple, here. Or so it should have been! Geez!ö I still donÆt agree. As I proved above you can in two siturations end up better off with adv5 in 6months not 3 years. If you end up better off then the skills has paid its self off. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Kera Va'Tauri	Posted - 2007.10.16 18:30:00 - [57] Originally by: Dubious Drewski Training Advanced learning to 5 will only pay off after 3 years....it's not...hard to understand...... Very very simple, here. Or so it should have been! Geez! False! Training ALL the ADV learning skills to 5 takes 3 years to pay off. Training just perception to 5 takes about a year to pay off (depending on your starting stats of course). In other words, if you're planning on flying capital ships there is no reason not to train Clarity 5. ADV Int and Will to 5 don't hurt either, and training Adv Will AND Adv Perception to 5 pays off in about 18 months. As for Advanced Charisma, I see no reason to waste the time. ADV Mem is pretty hard to justify as well, unless you plan on maxing all the drone skills.
ChiseFu	Posted - 2007.10.16 18:38:00 - [58] I can't help but agree with Kayna Eelai. Thinking that it will take 3+ years to get a return on investment is a very narrowminded approach. You need to figure that once learning is out of the way you will have more fun because the skills you need are coming in a lot quicker. As for him/her misguiding newbies all that Kayna is doing is sharing a point of view. I find that most EVE players are pretty intelligent and will find their own style.
Affirmativ	Posted - 2007.10.16 18:43:00 - [59] Using pure skillpoint measurements to define 'ahead' and 'behind' is so obscenely flawed...oh god...is this thread for real? I bet you want numbers next to your name to denote how many SP you've got don't ya? What about the very real gametime/experience you lose out on by not being able to progress as your training 15 day learning skills up? Guess what....you never make that back up. ooops. But go ahead, if skillpoints are your disfunction, go ahead...that you think you are somehow going to benefit in the very long term is *****ing me up.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.10.16 18:51:00 - [60] Edited by: Pottsey on 16/10/2007 18:50:59 "Guess what....you never make that back up. ooops. But go ahead, if skillpoints are your disfunction, go ahead...that you think you are somehow going to benefit in the very long term is *****ing me up.!ö Do some of you guys not read? Those of us with adv5 are going benefit next month when we can learn all those new skills and new ships far faster then those without learning. Its not going take 3 years we will be ahead 1 second after training a new skills. We can max out a new skills and start a 2nd new skill all while the people without learning are still on there first skill. Passive shield tanking guide click here

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