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Gecko O'Bac
Aquilae Stellaris
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.10.15 21:15:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Rells
Well HACs are not going to take down even a small, competently configured, POS without losing a significant number of the HACs so there is no problem there. Any decently defended POS will be fine. Medium POS and Large POS would simply PWN a HAC fleet.
Ok I realize I haven't been clear. I wasn't really talking about taking down the pos. I was talking about taking down jump bridges or, more important, cynojammers. With a Hac fleet you can take one down. Sure, you'll take losses, but if the base is setup mostly against BSs, than you'll take fewer losses.
(Just to be clear: since all the ships in the gang can use normal jumpgates, you wouldn't need to jump directly in the cynojammed system. Even if you were able to do that, it would be counterproductive since it would be a populated system where the scout would be noticed immediately, while entering with the whole gang already assembled leaves less time for reprisal)
Originally by: Rells
Large multi-battleship and bubble camps would be ineffective at stopping this and an alliance would have to defend its people and assets in space rather than galavanting around blowing up others without concern over defending their own space. It would have no effect on POS warfare whatsoever.
Well, I dislike blobbing as the next man, but as of now they're the only halfway efficient way to defend your territory. You can't have roaming gangs prepared all the time to respond to an attack anywhere in your territory, it is simply not feasible unless you hold only 2 or 3 systems. The only viable thing is blocking chokepoints and pipelines. That is why I'd prefer that only recon classes were allowed jumping in that jump portal. A fully fledged HAC/Recon gang is bad enough with a direct attack. I wouldn't want them to simply jump through enemy lines and camp my outpost, for example (POSes are defended, outposts not), without a chance to prevent that.
Originally by: Rells
You cant check the following stat but CCP can. I would guess that less than 1% of players in eve are qualified in recon ships or covert ops ships. Those are high skill point training plans that are not accessible to the newer players. What is an allaince to do? Make a gang and mandate anyone newer than 6 months cant go along? Seems artificial and unnecessary.
CCP needs to stop desinging more toys for the superalliances and more for the rest of the game. A Black ops ship only able to jump recons would only be effective in a superaliance that can muster 50 recon ships.
Look... I've heard any kind of statistic about who can fly recons. And they're not that hard to train. You may want to consider a few things first of all:
1) You have to account only for 0.0 and lowsec residents, since the cynofields can't be opened in empire. You have so reduced the total interested population by quite a lot of people.
2) You have to account for alts, which ARE a considerable % of the population. And many people play them simultaneously with their main char.
That said, recons aren't even that hard to train, especially if you make an alt for that (so you can skip ratting skills or whatever). But besides alts, they're not really that skill intensive. Mine is a little corp, still we've got quite some recon pilots, most do not have 2 years of gameplay.
You are right when you say that I do not have that kind of figures, but I still think (considering the things I said), that we're talking about a % quite higher than the 1% you're talking about.
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ollobrains
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.16 05:14:00 -
[32]
all these new ships are going to boost skirmish and behind enemy lines warfare, the overall impact once people start getting the skills in terms of 0.0 and low sec warfare is going to change a lot of things. Depends on nerfs, boosts etc later on but interesting times ahead
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.16 05:17:00 -
[33]
Uhh how woudl you be able to jump portal into a system with a cyno jammer?
As for recon gangs, argue all you want but putting all these resources into a ship that can be used by less than 1% of the population is rather stupid. As for them being "not that hard to train", they take 6 months to train and be able to use properly. Finally, as for all of 0.0 being alts, we cant make the whole game assuming everyone is an alt of someone else. There are a lot of new players in 0.0 and we dont want to make 0.0 unaccessible only to alts of multi billion isk, multi-million sp players. The superalliances have enough toys.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
ollobrains
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.16 05:23:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Rells
Uhh how woudl you be able to jump portal into a system with a cyno jammer?
As for recon gangs, argue all you want but putting all these resources into a ship that can be used by less than 1% of the population is rather stupid. As for them being "not that hard to train", they take 6 months to train and be able to use properly. Finally, as for all of 0.0 being alts, we cant make the whole game assuming everyone is an alt of someone else. There are a lot of new players in 0.0 and we dont want to make 0.0 unaccessible only to alts of multi billion isk, multi-million sp players. The superalliances have enough toys.
obviously as far as cyno jammers go they jam all cynos. Dunno how CCP will handle that one it will just leave certain systems untouchable. Maybe raise resources etc. A point of this game is the population will adjust based on CCPs changes if changes affect super sized alliances then super sized alliances will form to take advantage if they discourage supersized alliances then smaller groups ( looking at the last 4 years for example the mineral changes and drone changes as well as system soviengty have led to a lot of sudden political shifts) i expect after this patch a few changes may happen as well.
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Gecko O'Bac
Aquilae Stellaris
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.10.16 08:23:00 -
[35]
Reading comprehesion for the win.
As you may notice I explicitly stated in my above post that a black ops gang DOESN'T need to jump directly in a system since they can... You know, just use warpgates to move around?
What you would do is sending the cynoship, cloaked, to a nearby, possibly unpopulated system, open the cyno there and jump the gang in. And then travel by warpgates to the cynojammed system and (if HACs and the like were allowed to jump along with recon classes) wreak havoc, possibly destroying the cynojammer itself.
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Christina Bamar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.10.17 03:02:00 -
[36]
I don't understand the "well it will let people hurt defenders" line.
From my understanding that's the entire point of Black Ops ships. Rev 2 pushed the advantage over to the defender's side with the new POS mechanics, and now Rev 3 gives some power back to attackers through Black Ops BS.
I can see reasons not to allow HACs, but "well it would make defending hard" is pretty obvious, and the whole point.
Rather than limit the types of ships, I'd much rather if they limited the number. If each Black Ops BS could jump bridge any cruisers(or BC) and smaller, but only allow 5-10 through each, then that would be a much better situation.
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Gecko O'Bac
Aquilae Stellaris
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.10.17 16:16:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
I don't understand the "well it will let people hurt defenders" line.
From my understanding that's the entire point of Black Ops ships. Rev 2 pushed the advantage over to the defender's side with the new POS mechanics, and now Rev 3 gives some power back to attackers through Black Ops BS.
I can see reasons not to allow HACs, but "well it would make defending hard" is pretty obvious, and the whole point.
Rather than limit the types of ships, I'd much rather if they limited the number. If each Black Ops BS could jump bridge any cruisers(or BC) and smaller, but only allow 5-10 through each, then that would be a much better situation.
That wouldn't be much of a limit since you could just have two or three black ops and the limit is gone.
That said, having experienced first hand the revised pos combat, I can say that the cynojammer is very vulnerable since you don't have to take out the pos to kill it.
As it is now, the only thing between the cynojammer and the enemy fleet is INTELLIGENCE.
Without intelligence of enemy fleet movements you can't defend the ynojammer. It's a matter of minutes (without intelligence) getting a BS fleet inside the cynojammer system, kill the jammer and then jump the capital fleet inside, with virtually no chance of reprisal by the attacked alliance (unless they were preparing a fleet nearby the attacked system for some reason).
If a black ops group with hacs and whatever could jump in a nearby system and then enter and kill the cynojammer, it would render intelligence completely useless since a 3 minute warning isn't enough to gather enough people to effectively defend the pos against an organised gang.
Still I don't see why many of you seem to think that having only recon classes would gimp the squad too much... IMHO it works wonderfully as a deep striker team, if you want something heavier take a mothership filled with hacs and jump with a regular cynofield. You can even use the Black ops team as a decoy while mounting an offensive with hacs or bss traveling through warpgates...
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.18 02:02:00 -
[38]
Losing 20 hacs to take out a single cyno jammer doesnt seem to be a sustainable process.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
Gecko O'Bac
Aquilae Stellaris
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.10.18 08:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Rells
Losing 20 hacs to take out a single cyno jammer doesnt seem to be a sustainable process.
Well neither losing multiple BSs because the defending alliance had enough time to mount a conteroffensive...
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Christina Bamar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.10.19 05:52:00 -
[40]
You're making it sound as if one roaming HAC gang is going to conquer your home system. You're completely glossing over the tiny little fact that it only works if your enemy has a sizeable capital and support fleet to take down your POS, and you don't have even close to the numbers to fight them back. Basically, in the worst case that you're describing the situation would be exactly the same as it was pre-Rev 2...
The point of cyno jammers and their rev 2 brethern was to provide objectives for medium sized gangs... like... I dunno... lets say a 20-30 man roaming gang.... Right now cyno jammers pretty much just encourage massive blobbing (as you've seen with TRI's invasion). Giving more hit and run objectives and less blobbing up objectives is 100% a good thing.
Reinforced timers are there to keep people from conquering your space before you can mount your defence. No one ever said that your cyno jammer should be safe from being disabled before you can mount a defense. I just don't see a situation where being able to take down a cyno jammer with a HAC gang will allow an enemy to take your space when they wouldn't be able to otherwise. If you can't fight them after your cyno jammer is down, then tbh they outnumber you enough that you'll lose either way, so what you're really saying is that you think people should have to suicide dozens of BS to take down a cyno jammer, which I definitely do not agree with.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.10.19 08:00:00 -
[41]
And how exactly is a gang of dps impaired black ops bs /that are on top of it hilariously expensive) and recons (again awesome dps...not) take out your precious cyno jammer in any reasonable amount of time if at all?
Quit whining, the defenders advantage is still massively there and should be reduced still if anything.
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Loedem
Minmatar
Knockaround Guys
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Posted - 2007.10.19 12:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: ollobrains
all these new ships are going to boost skirmish and behind enemy lines warfare, the overall impact once people start getting the skills in terms of 0.0 and low sec warfare is going to change a lot of things. Depends on nerfs, boosts etc later on but interesting times ahead
Exactly. I'm looking forward to it. This is all part of CCP's bigger picture that offers alternatives to fleet battles. 
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Will Stronghold
Firing Squad
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Posted - 2007.10.19 12:55:00 -
[43]
As for cyno inhibitors, I think they should inhibit any kind of cynos (covert or not). The Black-Ops ships are very specializes, so as such I see no problem when only cov-ops, recon and black-ops can use their portal however the covert cyno should work as any cyno so any jump capable ship should be able to jump to it as long as he is in gang, weather its Jump capable new freighter or carrier or another Black-Ops should make no difference.
Well thats just my 2 ISK in the pot
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.22 16:28:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Will Stronghold
As for cyno inhibitors, I think they should inhibit any kind of cynos (covert or not). The Black-Ops ships are very specializes, so as such I see no problem when only cov-ops, recon and black-ops can use their portal however the covert cyno should work as any cyno so any jump capable ship should be able to jump to it as long as he is in gang, weather its Jump capable new freighter or carrier or another Black-Ops should make no difference.
Well thats just my 2 ISK in the pot
I would agree with this. No portal if a cyno jammer is active.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
Kaaii
Caldari
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.10.22 18:50:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Kaaii on 22/10/2007 18:52:08
Edited by: Kaaii on 22/10/2007 18:50:15
Just how do these ships work anyway? Anyone really know?
Do you get in your widow, click a system on the map and say "cyno here", then everyone jumps thu?
You don't need a cyno pilot already in system to pull these in do you??
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there.
kieron
Director of Community Relations,
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Secondus Dawkins
Fade to Black Inc
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.22 19:31:00 -
[46]
Some people seem to be taking the wrong approach here. We are talking about spec-ops here. No HACs, inties or anything else that isn't stealth oriented should be going through the covert cynos. Think about it conceptually, the idea is that these are little elite gangs designed to harass from behind enemy lines... HACs and the like would make the whole thing something else entirely.
The black ops team should be outnumbered and out gunned, that's the beauty of the thing. Recently when BoB and friends were sieging F4, a group of SBs and a couple cov-ops were able to tie up a gang that was almost three times their number and flying much more impressive ships. While we only killed a couple of them, they had to focus on us, which allowed other groups to move with impunity. This is the essence of the concept; harassment much more than damage, disruption more than destruction.
Finally, as someone was suggesting earlier that any jump-capable ship should be able to jump to a covert cyno, heck no! Again, this breaks the concept, and further, can you imagine an un-locatable spike of 50 red caps in your system? By the time you were able to probe them out they would be melting a POS. You can't Blitzkrieg by stealth. A cap fleet (or even a single cap ship) is, by definition, far from subtle.
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Secondus Dawkins
Fade to Black Inc
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.22 20:12:00 -
[47]
And while I'm thinking about it, the skills are not much of a barrier. To begin with, this is a specialty, like so many others in the game, so it stands to reason that only a small proportion of the player base will have access to it. Also, if you are interested and are already in T2 racial frigs, it won't take you long at all to get into a cov-ops ship. Finally, I suspect that far more than 1% of eve is either capable or less than 14 days away from being capable of piloting one of the requisite ships. Thus I can't really see any valid arguments against the current setup. I feel that it is ideal as stated.
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.24 05:05:00 -
[48]
I didnt say it was only for older players. I said probably 1% of the game flies them. You have to realize that the average eve player isnt qualified to run one well, if at all. I just think the restriction to recon oriented ships is not needed.
However, if they dont remove local in 0.0 then it will be a mute point anyway.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
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