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War Analysis Part 3: CCP Sucks

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Musgrat Discordant Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.13 09:38:00 - [31] Amazingly good read, this one is worth of dev response. hint hint Also, you are completely correct when you say that CCP does not truly factor in lag to their game mechanics, and therefore we could only see what they envisioned this game to be if there was in fact no lag. I guess a lot of us are willing to play the game in the hope that one day we can experience that.
Joycalyn UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 09:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Tetsujin it really is a pity about the lag...if it wasn't as ugly and huge as it is this would be the best computer game ever made in my opinion. It pretty much was back in the days of RA vs .5. and stuff (pre-POS). All the additions to the game since have only lowered the fun factor and increased the time sink on 0.0 territory warfare. I only hope the technology will catch up and this game will achieve it's true potential of lag free battles involving many thousands of players.

Jacques Archambault Forum Moderator	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:17:00 - [33] Thread cleaned. Please keep it polite and on-topic thanks. -Jacques forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website!

NereSky Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:31:00 - [34] Good Read shame there isnt more posts like this
Hellown Avis de Captura	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:48:00 - [35] Another good read. more pls.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:39:00 - [36] (I'll quote a few time from some of your 4 post) Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor Examples given include the crashing morale of GS members pre-titan nerf and the argument that the acceptance of former LV pilots (Shinra members merged into RKK and the wholesale addition of Finfleet) have diluted BoB's "elite" identity. While I agree that were not the happiest moments of this war, (morale, as a participant, can be pictured as a "so-so"), GS was not experiencing their first defeat. They once lost to Bob, they lost to D¦. TCF lost (and was formed in) a war against D¦+the old north. RA's will is not to be proven. I think RSF, if the Alliance have to win, will not go back so easily. I'd want to had a few things about LV's pilot. I'm not sure, if Bob is in deep trouble, that they'll stay inside their new host alliance. With M.Pire, they'll have to shoot old friends and some Shinra/Finfleet pilots could think they are not concerned by BoB's defeat (again, if it occurs). (to be continued) 2isk
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:43:00 - [37] Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor Revelations I introduced Fleets, in an effort to improve on (and, it appears, eventually replace) the gang system. The primary results of the Fleet system have been: (...) - Increased size number of players able to utilize these in-game methods within a single fleet (256 max) and the ability to more rapidly form fleets (delegation of invites to Squad Commanders) You're totally wrong here. Organizing a 256 men fleet can take up to one hour before taking off : the interface of the inviting process is particulary horrible to deal with. Something has really to be done here, like a as big as the market 2d window showing bonuses, drag and drop to take people and put them in the correct wing/squad. 2isk
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:46:00 - [38] Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor These changes, combined with the supercapital nerf, are a double-edged (or perhaps even triple-edged) sword. They have returned sup-capital fleets, particularly battleships, to prominent positions in territorial warfare, as they are the only ships able to initiate an attack on a Cyno Jammed system. I agree, and my biaised point of vue says it's normal. Battleships were always the core of a fleet. Prenerf titans made them obsoletes. 2isk
SunglassesInSpace GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:48:00 - [39] Wow I actaully read all that and it makes sense
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:48:00 - [40] Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor I believe that RISE stations in RIT may be the first to have had station services that remained down for longer than a day or two. The station services in C4C and L-C in Fade have been down from the day we first attacked till the day we took control of the stations. Originally by: consider telos ..then we had a fight and he was so dead and then I like became champion of eve and then ccp gave me a medal and a t-shirt and asked me to go out with him on a date to mcD'
Major Stormer Caldari Copperhead Inc. Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:51:00 - [41] I am rather enjoying these. Shame you couldnt post with your main, but well done none the less. Originally by: SirMolle Excuse me? BoB slave corp? k, if thats what you wish, you just got your wish granted. Forever.
Wigglytuff Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:44:00 - [42] This is a thread worthy of a main. Good read.
Impretinent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:50:00 - [43] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor I believe that RISE stations in RIT may be the first to have had station services that remained down for longer than a day or two. The station services in C4C and L-C in Fade have been down from the day we first attacked till the day we took control of the stations. I'm fairly sure services have been kept down pretty much continuously since about the middle of September by PL and our guys. I'm not really sure how any of it really matter either way though.
Sanka Cofie Amarr Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:41:00 - [44] Edited by: Sanka Cofie on 13/10/2007 14:43:09 Just wanted to say that these have been some pretty good posts. I know alot of people who actively look for the next one, and thats the mark of a good serial article, news piece, TV program, or serial anything (except killers. the mark of a good serial killer is an awesomely gruesome calling card that says to the cops "hahaha i'm stylish and stuff"). I'm trying to decide if your more EVE-Herodotus or EVE-Walter Cronkite. Seems to me the former. Either way I hope you continue on this topic for a while, or find others that draw your attention, they've been interesting,and provide a better read than anything the EVE News (ISD?) people have put out in a while (no offense ISD ppl). As far as the lag, i've never really understood the mechanics of it. Is it an unsustainable number of players in a single system (a la Jita), constellation, or region that causes the lag? A combination of the above? If its just a single system then your idea of forcing a group to hit multiple systems to take a single structure in one would seem like a really good fix. Like in Homer's epic, The Iliad, when Odysseus and a squad of his bravest men had to knock out the Sheild Generator on the forest moon of Endor before the rest of the fleet could attack the Death Star. -[WillChat4ISK]- I can be the handsome Amarr space captain. You can be the helpless Minmatar slave girl.
WhatIsItGoodFor Absolutely Nothin	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:24:00 - [45] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn (I'll quote a few time from some of your 4 post) Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor Examples given include the crashing morale of GS members pre-titan nerf and the argument that the acceptance of former LV pilots (Shinra members merged into RKK and the wholesale addition of Finfleet) have diluted BoB's "elite" identity. While I agree that were not the happiest moments of this war, (morale, as a participant, can be pictured as a "so-so"), GS was not experiencing their first defeat. They once lost to Bob, they lost to D¦. TCF lost (and was formed in) a war against D¦+the old north. RA's will is not to be proven. I think RSF, if the Alliance have to win, will not go back so easily. I'd want to had a few things about LV's pilot. I'm not sure, if Bob is in deep trouble, that they'll stay inside their new host alliance. With M.Pire, they'll have to shoot old friends and some Shinra/Finfleet pilots could think they are not concerned by BoB's defeat (again, if it occurs). (to be continued) That was actually my point -- that while members and participation of the alliances in question certainly did fall when under heavy duress, the alliances themselves did not crumble entirely as others have. Unless you are saying that every pilot of RSF stayed and endured through the pre-nerf Titan days (or the previously challenges each individual alliance experienced), which I would absolutely disagree with.
Duke Grail DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:15:00 - [46] Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 13/10/2007 03:08:35 Warp To Zero also has had a significnt effect on 0.0 warfare and populations. Thankfully, it won't be around forever. OMG DEV!!!111!!! :P good think i have a copy of all my old insta's in a gsc somewhere.
Alpine 69 Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:39:00 - [47] Originally by: dev1lwoman 3 good write ups, and for once a wall of text worth reading, thanks This. Sweet love for the ones that mod my sig <3 From her? You're on. -Rauth
Ungdall Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:02:00 - [48] I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of this bit of writing and now need to go back and look over the rest of your essays.
dor amwar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:05:00 - [49] Edited by: dor amwar on 13/10/2007 22:05:31 Quote: The second thing to note is that while this nerf hit the GBC hard at the time... i would not say they were hit. because of BGCs superior 'planning' abilities they had the advantage of having the un-nerfed supers almost exclusively for a long time. very well written, thank you.
Danyael Tyren Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:55:00 - [50] Excellent write-up, you are clearly a gentleman and a scholar.
Cyriel Longinus XERCORE	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:02:00 - [51] I recall when the cluster would stress with only 9,000 Players online. In comparison to then, the game has certianly improved. Answers are not easy to come by when pushing the boundaries of something no one else has done before. Obviously in the past and present, CCP has been pushing the boundaries and provided us a dam good game. The effort is obvious. The passion is obvious. There is a history of growth and success for CCP and EvE that span YEARS. Seriously, if you can make the difference step up from behind the alt, volunteer or apply for a job at CCP. No amount of carefully chosen words in a seemingly objective format will hide a tantrum or amount to the creditability of action. Score: CCP = Providing Years of Entertaiment to EvE Fans WhatIsItGoodFor (alt) = A whole lot of unoriginal wind
BAteh Amarr The Elear	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:38:00 - [52] Originally by: Musgrat a lot of us are willing to play the game in the hope that one day we can experience that. With an MSSQL database? Abandon all hope. OP: Excellent post.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:50:00 - [53] Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn (I'll quote a few time from some of your 4 post) Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor Examples given include the crashing morale of GS members pre-titan nerf and the argument that the acceptance of former LV pilots (Shinra members merged into RKK and the wholesale addition of Finfleet) have diluted BoB's "elite" identity. While I agree that were not the happiest moments of this war, (morale, as a participant, can be pictured as a "so-so"), GS was not experiencing their first defeat. They once lost to Bob, they lost to D¦. TCF lost (and was formed in) a war against D¦+the old north. RA's will is not to be proven. I think RSF, if the Alliance have to win, will not go back so easily. I'd want to had a few things about LV's pilot. I'm not sure, if Bob is in deep trouble, that they'll stay inside their new host alliance. With M.Pire, they'll have to shoot old friends and some Shinra/Finfleet pilots could think they are not concerned by BoB's defeat (again, if it occurs). (to be continued) That was actually my point -- that while members and participation of the alliances in question certainly did fall when under heavy duress, the alliances themselves did not crumble entirely as others have. Unless you are saying that every pilot of RSF stayed and endured through the pre-nerf Titan days (or the previously challenges each individual alliance experienced), which I would absolutely disagree with. That is 95% true for TCF. "OK I go !! Where could I lead/be leaded in french ??????? OK I stay !!!!!" 2isk
Mortania Minmatar Carbide Industries R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.14 04:30:00 - [54] Originally by: Cyriel Longinus I recall when the cluster would stress with only 9,000 Players online. In comparison to then, the game has certianly improved. Answers are not easy to come by when pushing the boundaries of something no one else has done before. Obviously in the past and present, CCP has been pushing the boundaries and provided us a dam good game. The effort is obvious. The passion is obvious. There is a history of growth and success for CCP and EvE that span YEARS. Seriously, if you can make the difference step up from behind the alt, volunteer or apply for a job at CCP. No amount of carefully chosen words in a seemingly objective format will hide a tantrum or amount to the creditability of action. Score: CCP = Providing Years of Entertaiment to EvE Fans WhatIsItGoodFor (alt) = A whole lot of unoriginal wind You failed to understand his point. It wouldn't matter if CCP had a server that could handle 5,000 players in a system, the playerbase would just bring 7,000 to the party and it would fail. CCP needs to stop thinking they can overcome lag through superior firepower, it's a doomed proposition, and why "The Need for Speed" is a failed endeavour before it's over. They need to start coming up with systems that don't require massive fleets, that actively DISCOURAGE massive fleets. Otherwise lag will always be present. --- Destroying asteroids one at a time, to make the universe safer.
Schlieren Altiprlayle GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 06:03:00 - [55] Originally by: Mortania You failed to understand his point. It wouldn't matter if CCP had a server that could handle 5,000 players in a system, the playerbase would just bring 7,000 to the party and it would fail. The playerbase is not infinite in number. It is possible to provide enough optimized computing power which would enable any number of server -- client interactions. Quote: They need to start coming up with systems that don't require massive fleets, that actively DISCOURAGE massive fleets. EVE's barely-explained, byzantine game mechanics already strain credulity, and while almost anything would be preferable to what now is the case, at the same time it seems hard to understand how CCP approaches--and approached--these mechanics in the past. The balance between the ruleset and how it could be implemented in-game seems to favor concept over performance, which suggests future revisions might only introduce a different set of bottlenecks, perhaps forseeable, yet optimistically ignored, left to the discovery of CCP's disenchanted clients. I suppose it's understandable that they would prefer to stick with the devil they know. ____________________________ stop posting
Salastil GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 07:31:00 - [56] Edited by: Salastil on 14/10/2007 07:34:30 The lag is unavoidable and effects everyone equally, there is no strategy in the game aside from the defender cramming as much ships into the system and letting the automated POS guns and auto-aggressing fighters and drones do the work because they are still trying to target the primary that was called thirty minutes previous.
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 07:54:00 - [57] I wouldn't personally say CCP sucks. They do seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place (as metaphore for 'non linear growth in task/message queues' vs 'spiraling arms escalation in 0.0) , and indeed the problems of 700 people shooting each other in lag may well be unsolvable , but I think CCP tackled the problem all wrong. When it became clear that from the player perspective there where two problems, both incompatible in solution;- 1) Players need to bring lots of people to a fight because the other side is also doing that (Whoever backs down loses), PLUS 2) Players need to bring less people because the lag sucks. ... CCP tried to respond by area effect weapons. However both attempts appear to of failed. The first one, the TITAN, was an unmitigated disaster, because of how massively broken the Asymetry was. Team #1 would get its numbers reduced to almost zero, Team #2 was still free to blob the living hell out of the arena. Too powerful. The second one, Bombers , has the opposite problem. Whilst being far more 'democratic' (A new player could train one up in a few months, in theory.) the bang for buck factor just made it not worth it. Regardless AOF weapons in almost any MMO are fun killers. One guy gets a bunch of kills, the other guys don't even get to play. Wouldn't it be easier to just allow newbie griefing in empire? Oh yeah. Lag. (No Im not advocating newbie killing, I'm being Rhetorical). The problem with these , is they treat the symptoms, not the causes. Rather than breaking up the 'blobs' (Abusive term for large group of customers out to have fun) by force, break them up by objective. If the POS's required to take out a system where easier to kill, but had to be taken out simultaneously, and more methods where in place to avoid the gate cluster**** , then clearly the elements would be in place to start breaking up the 'blobs'. I'm also going to say this right now. Fighters suck. You have an entity that causes the same amount of lag as a player, and you can stick at LEAST five on a gate per carrier. Whee. Also carrier can be somewhere else. If theres drone rewriting going on, make them dumber and less needing of complex interaction. Why do they NEED collision detection? 99% of eve players would happily accept that the fighter goes through instead of around obstacles, if it meant that fighters didn't lag a battlefield into worthlessness. And please, profile that fleet code. It still is true that dropping fleet in a battle will make the battle playable again. This shouldnt happen. Somewhere in that code, something is doing something else terribly wrong. Otherwise, I still love EVE and thank CCP for making it for us, and I certainly empathise with CCP that this isnt easy stuff to fix. ----------- HI IM DUCKMONSTER
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 08:00:00 - [58] Originally by: BAteh Originally by: Musgrat a lot of us are willing to play the game in the hope that one day we can experience that. With an MSSQL database? Abandon all hope. OP: Excellent post. And python No seriously man. I'm a linux guy, and I'd make different decisions, but folks like to bash on MS-SQL and Python without any real understanding of what the roles of them here are. MS-SQL has problems, but I've no indication I've seen that used in a proper enterprise configuration its any less fast than DB2/ORACLE/MYSQL/Pick-your-favorite. Its just what they chose for whatever reason. Likewise, until I see anyone point out a dynamic language that isn't Scheme, is as easy as Python to learn AND has that microthreading goodness that EVEs concurrency relies on, I'll continue to maintain that CCP's choice of stackless was inspired genius. ----------- HI IM DUCKMONSTER
Byzan Zwyth Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.10.14 18:54:00 - [59] can only imagine how awesome eve would be without lag. Anyone who has been in a large battle knows the crazy stuff you have to deal with. To be honest when new details of game changes come out all I think about is screw the new ships and all that fancy new trash. I would trade it all for a noticeable improvement in battle lag. ---------------------- Rank: Tech 1 and a 1/2 cannon fodder Pointless forum slowing bandwidth hogging signature pic inc?
Maysta PhaCade The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.14 23:12:00 - [60] Originally by: Sekket There's a book within you, I think you should write it, and save us all from the wall of text. I have to disagree. If you don't like it, don't read it! WTF, moaning about this. To the OP... good work. Keeps me sane at work, gives me something to read and think about. Keep em coming please.

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