Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Wrayeth

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Can they out-ewar your raven?

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well they could:)

Originally by: Damned Force

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Edited by: Damned Force on 15/10/2007 08:53:47

Originally by: RoCkEt X

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Just to make a point, cruise ravens dont suck.

i'll post the relevant bits in my setup:

Hi - 6 cruise launcher II + cal navy missiles

Lo - 2 Ballistic Control II's.

568 damage per missile. 6.4 sec rof. dps @ 0% res = 621 DPS. (RNI)

not great, but it hurts and range is 220km. Not many ships can do that dps at such range. however torp ravens do put out more dps, and should not be nerfed like this.

-rocket.

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If damage/ missile is 568 and rof is 6.4sec how u get on 6 launchers more dps than 1 missile damage is?



Between i think this change is nice. Torps would be more used in pvp maybe. Just the incrase of expo radius is not needed. Neither of the short range weapons get such "penality".
Maybe is a logical move, but pls CCP tell us the reason

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Originally by: BugxEarl

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Originally by: Cythrawl

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Originally by: mama guru

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WTF!!!
-Stuff

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Raven is not such a bad ship in small to mid-sized gang. It can project decent fire power at a decent range if paired with proper support due to the fact that Raven can bring decent amount of ECM (now the popular RSDs) which merit itself and the gang mates equally.

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The raven will remain a superb gang ship. Probably the best damage dealer available if the patch goes trough. On the other hand the raven will be so extremely paper thin fit for pure torp gankage that im really woried dying to a frigate..

Originally by: Gamesguy

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Originally by: Kamikaaazi

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torp ravens are allmost impossible to fit with any kind of tank atm.
6 siege II, 2 high empty
100mn mwd II, heavy cap inj II, web II, 24km scram II, sens booster II, tpainter II
LAR II, eanm II, dc II, bcs II, exp II

that takes 15533.2 out of 11875 grid available. That even with 2 high-s empty.
Also you wont still be doing maxed damage since you need at least 2 tpainters.

Lets try shield tanking raven.
6 siege II, 2 empty high
XL II, shield boost amp II, 24km scram, tpainter II, 100mn mwd II, heavy cap inj II
3 PDS II, BCS II, DC II

OOPS, 959.2/875 cpu used and 13780.2/13748.8 grid used.
Lets remember that you arent still doing full damage to some BS-s and you dont have a web. Also your shield resists are utterly crappy.

Really, raven has some really big problems and unless it gets a major grid boost it wont still be worth ****.

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Thats because you're an unimaginative moron. This is the standard gank plated neutron mega setup:

7x Neutron Blaster Cannon II (CN AM L)

1x Quad 100mn mwd or T2(doesnt matter)
1x Warp Disruptor II
1x Fleeting Web
1x Medium eletrochem inject

3x MFS II
2x 1600mm plate
1x EANM II
1x DCU II

5x Ogre II

3x Trimark armor pump I.

1252 DPS, max velocity 969 m/s, effective hp 105k. Fits with a cpu implant.



This is a raven with the new torp changes

6x Siege Missile Launcher II (CN torpedos)

1x Quad Lif MWD
1x Target Painter II
1x Large Extender II
2x Invul II
1x Fleeting web OR Medium inject.

3x BCU II
1x 1600mm plate
1x DCU II

5x Hammerhead II, 5x Warrior II.

3x Core Defense Field Extender I

1105 DPS, max velocity 1013 m/s, effective hp 106k. Fits with a PG implant.

The mega has 150 more dps, and can scram, but the raven can start shooting earlier and do full damage from 30km, not to mention it can switch to javelin and hit 150k. In addition, the raven is slightly faster and has more flexibility in drones(for example you can carry a spare set of warriors for inties or a set of light ecm drones if you need to get away).

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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torp raven is getting a huge buff here, its shocking people can't see that.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Originally by: d026

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why should i fit a 1600mm plate and gimp my allready slow raven even more? ahh because it looks better in comparison to a mega.. without the 1600'plate i only achive 99k effective hp thats 6k less.. i mean you also could fit a shield extender to your mega couldnt you? and BTW you are missing a TP! so no web and no scram.. both mods required.. so - another invul..

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A shield extender gives a mega a whopping 3k more hp, you could take off the plate but then you lose around 10k hp(5k less if you fit pdu instead). If you're gonna nitpick about 5% effective hp then the raven has about 90 dps tank with the natural shield regen, the mega has 15.

How am I missing a tp? A single tp puts a 400 sig bs(like the mega) to 540 sig(550 with SF 5). In addition, it does have a web, since the raven doesnt need cap to fire guns it doesnt need an injector as badly as does the mega.

I never said this was a solo setup. This is a GANG setup, a point is not required. Webs are rather nice though since tackler in web range=dead tackler.

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Originally by: Tral Kul

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You know I really don't think people get it, if you want damage expect to lose range; that's almost a basic balancing tenet of CCP.

Does the Raven perhaps lose a little cause of range? Yes but it's still going to be a terror.

About the effective hp I have a question did you do that with favored or unfavored resists?

Because a mega taking explosive damage (unless sacerficing 2 lows to get it up) will be having a really bad day.

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Originally by: Tenebrious

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Originally by: Vigaz

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sig -> 530
rof -> -33%
range -> -80%

more damage & less tanking... mmm and perfect range for enemies to give ravens a lot of damage...

if u can choose, u wanna tell me that u prefer to gank with new torps?

inst better to warp @ 50km from the 'war field' and to do less damage? without the needing of a tp, and just with a mwd to keep distance...

for pvp it can be a discussion if is better or not (worst imho) for pve is for sure an immoral change... (what I have to do with my 7xCN siege? try to sell them for pvp? lol)

Pls Devs give ravens a chance to be useable for something... do not change rules in such strict way, I think itÆs unfair.

sig and rof changes r almost balanced (u wanna do more damage? Remove 1 tanking mid slot and add tp) but changing the range of 80% is unacceptable... Iv'e never heard about such big nerf (speaking about range)

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Yes because doing 1100 DPS to more than 30km is balanced.

I posted a perfectly viable pvp raven setup that is very similar to the plated neutron mega setup.

CN torp launchers worthless? Too bad, how is that different from every other faction gun?

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Don't forget that not only do they do 1.1k DPS but they can choose their damage type as well. The raven will be hands down the most damaging ship in the game if this goes through. I really hope CCP finds some midpoint between these new torps and the old. The damage is a bit absurd.

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Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Originally by: d026

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why should i fit a 1600mm plate and gimp my allready slow raven even more? ahh because it looks better in comparison to a mega.. without the 1600'plate i only achive 99k effective hp thats 6k less.. i mean you also could fit a shield extender to your mega couldnt you? and BTW you are missing a TP! so no web and no scram.. both mods required.. so - another invul..

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A shield extender gives a mega a whopping 3k more hp, you could take off the plate but then you lose around 10k hp(5k less if you fit pdu instead). If you're gonna nitpick about 5% effective hp then the raven has about 90 dps tank with the natural shield regen, the mega has 15.

How am I missing a tp? A single tp puts a 400 sig bs(like the mega) to 540 sig(550 with SF 5). In addition, it does have a web, since the raven doesnt need cap to fire guns it doesnt need an injector as badly as does the mega.

I never said this was a solo setup. This is a GANG setup, a point is not required. Webs are rather nice though since tackler in web range=dead tackler.

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Either they both get a warp scram or neither do, because if your going on the fact that your in a gang, a mega can get an additional mid to work with. As was said before you cannot use the assumption of your gang will take care of it unless you apply it to both setups.

And while those ships keep similar damage on BSs when you start to target cruisers the ravens w/1TP are going to lose more DPS then the mega. In the end your not going to see any caldari pilots who trained another races short range gank ship go back to a siege raven for long.

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Originally by: Zyondor

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Edited by: Zyondor on 17/10/2007 19:55:28
SiSi Torp Stats for T1 and T2

Torp Stats

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Originally by: Inflexible

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Edited by: Inflexible on 18/10/2007 11:31:08
My opinion is, that new torps are ok, it's raven who needs serious rework.

As a short range ship it needs massive agility boost, maybe some fitting and slot layout changes. Torpraven is AFAIK only BS with 2 empty unusable slots.
It's not only immobile, but also unable to tank and tackle same time. As a short range BS it needs MWD, scram, web (everyone needs web, especialy slow ship) and - thanks to new torps - target painter.

Slot layout permits to fit dualrep armortank if you throw away damagemods, but powergrid is simply too tight.

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Originally by: Inflexible

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Edited by: Inflexible on 18/10/2007 11:59:56

Originally by: Ruato

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Ive been thinking about this and i simply cant figure what problem they are trying to fix with this change.

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There are 2 problems: Caldari BS being overpowered in PvE and underpowered in PvP. And this is step in right direction.
I'm missile specialized user and I like this change. Only thing which is beyond me is explosion radius nerf.

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Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

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That's quite a respectable set-up, however how does it fare once the target painter drones have inevitably been destroyed?

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