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War Analysis Part 4: Coldest of All Cold Monsters

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Local Her0 Minmatar La Mancha Corp	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:52:00 - [31] you write down what i think, if only i could write down what i think too i'll keep on trying, and u keep writing
Natas Dog Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:53:00 - [32] Edited by: Natas Dog on 13/10/2007 23:53:04 Originally by: Grimpak you might be right, but this guy over here is pretty much more neutral than 99.9% of the populace that frolics here in CAOD. I thought replying to this effect, but he's an alt anyway. I tend to let the alts smack among themselves if I can help it. Unless this is DigitalCommunist's alt, in which case I reply with lol. _______________________________________________________________ He who laughs last... is usually the one the joke was about.
Cringeley GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:33:00 - [33] Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor As Eve is a video game, most of the populace of the game involved in such politics don't actively think of their organizations in this way -- and I doubt many of their leaders spend much time thinking in this way either. Goonfleet's early leadership contained a preponderance of current events dorks (including me) and we did actually think way too much about economic and political models. Remedial in particular had a permanent boner for the American economic libertarian model, but overall we ended up with a very effective Third Way style of economic management, in which the corp and sub units of the corp run logistics and other more specific programs that benefit the group, like free frigates or special ship reimbursements, but the vast bulk of the day to day logistics is handled through free market economics. We even, eventually, abandoned penalties for deliberate market relisting of war supplies put on sale at low prices by other goons. The squad system was also a terrific goonfleet innovation. I don't know if anyone has ever done it on this scale in Eve before (or even at all, since we've been the largest single corp in the game since not long after our inception). I had nothing to do with it, and I thought at the time that it would just divide our strength. But it's been tremendously important both culturally and as a kind of competitive force (but not bitter competition) driving people to greater efforts. Squads arose out of deliberate forethought and debate in the directorship about how the corp could be structured to deal with multiple competing goals and projects that didn't necessarily require everyone working on them. The original idea was that squads would bid on contracts for the corp and then carry them out independently, but even though that went by the wayside the squads have still been superb at stopping a multi-thousand pilot corporation from turning into a faceless mass. It's not just one big community, it has smaller communities inside. Of course that's a bit like the corp->alliance structure that most alliances have, but this was a top down restructuring of the corporation and everyone retains their goonfleet identity first and foremost, whereas for corps joining alliances the structure comes from the bottom up and there is a relatively strong tendency for corps to split off when times are tough or their interests change.
Sivlan Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:45:00 - [34] Originally by: Cringeley Remedial in particular had a permanent boner for the American economic libertarian model, but overall we ended up with a very effective Third Way style of economic management, "lolbertarianism" Originally by: Cringeley The squad system was also a terrific goonfleet innovation. I don't know if anyone has ever done it on this scale in Eve before (or even at all, since we've been the largest single corp in the game since not long after our inception). I had nothing to do with it, and I thought at the time that it would just divide our strength. But it's been tremendously important both culturally and as a kind of competitive force (but not bitter competition) driving people to greater efforts. ** Gamma, seriously. Originally by:** Cringeley Of course that's a bit like the corp->alliance structure that most alliances have, but this was a top down restructuring of the corporation and everyone retains their goonfleet identity first and foremost, whereas for corps joining alliances the structure comes from the bottom up and there is a relatively strong tendency for corps to split off when times are tough or their interests change. This is spot on. Goons are all goons, but some goons are more :downs: than others.
Colonel Drego Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.14 02:46:00 - [35] You are doing an entirely excellent job, and every post has been a great read. Keep it up.
Tetsujin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 03:24:00 - [36] i believe that the strength of the "cooperative nations" model relies implicitly on the main powers in the group being autocracies. this allows for planning and implementation to be handled and discussed relatively swiftly by a very limited number of individuals within the group.
WraithFire Cassandra's Light Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.14 03:35:00 - [37] Originally by: Tetsujin i believe that the strength of the "cooperative nations" model relies implicitly on the main powers in the group being autocracies. this allows for planning and implementation to be handled and discussed relatively swiftly by a very limited number of individuals within the group. Ummm.... yeah like what he said. BTW, this is an interesting thread. It is rivetting and out right enchanting read. I have to say, " One of the best thread of the year." In addition, two thumbs up from Ebert and Roeper plus mine too. So, make it 3 thumbs up.
Death Church The Night Corporation Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.10.14 04:41:00 - [38] I still can't believe KOS is still around.
Thoric Frosthammer Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.10.14 05:18:00 - [39] I mean no offense to our good friends the Goons and allies when I say this, but when I saw "cooperative nations model", and thought of the Goons, I had a mental picture of the delegates to the UN having a kegger and taking turns telling fart jokes and see which one can make the translator snort beer out his nose. This might actually be a more productive model for the UN.
Schlieren Altiprlayle GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 05:22:00 - [40] man oh man do i ever love fart jokes ____________________________ stop posting
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 05:25:00 - [41] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer I mean no offense to our good friends the Goons and allies when I say this, but when I saw "cooperative nations model", and thought of the Goons, I had a mental picture of the delegates to the UN having a kegger and taking turns telling fart jokes and see which one can make the translator snort beer out his nose. This might actually be a more productive model for the UN. Actually we are alot more like mid 19th century America, furthermore
Sanka Cofie Amarr Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.10.14 15:08:00 - [42] I always thought GOON was an anarcho-syndicalist commune that takes it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two thirds majority in the case of... -[WillChat4ISK]- I can be the handsome Amarr space captain. You can be the helpless Minmatar slave girl.
Tetsujin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 15:34:00 - [43] Originally by: Sanka Cofie I always thought GOON was an anarcho-syndicalist commune that takes it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two thirds majority in the case of... no that's Rise.
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:45:00 - [44] Originally by: Sanka Cofie I always thought GOON was an anarcho-syndicalist commune that takes it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two thirds majority in the case of... Is layla still in D-L? ----------- HI IM DUCKMONSTER
grindel Caldari Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:48:00 - [45] Again, great post, thx. I like Thorics' proposal !
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.14 23:47:00 - [46] Originally by: Sanka Cofie I always thought GOON was an anarcho-syndicalist commune that takes it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two thirds majority in the case of... For effective leadership a small number of people need to make important decisions. Even in real world governments which are democracies which depend on a simple majority you find even minority governments still have agreements with other political parties to form a majority on important issues. So autocracies make decisions which are decisive and rapid but may annoy members. Though this is proven to be effective in eve (given that everyone is so combat orientated). Eve has one feature that reduces the likelihood of revolt is that you can "like it or leave it". This is different from the real world where you might not have another country to turn to if you don't like your current country. For member corps in eve you can always turn to empire if you don't like your leadership. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Originally by: rycar Devian 666 is awesome quote this if you're down
Aries Acheron Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.15 02:56:00 - [47] WhatIsItGoodFor, may I ask if I can contact you for Eve Tribune? Be it by this alt or any other character. I'd like to repost much of what you've written there, as well as interview you by some means if possible. If you'd like to leave some contact information, perhaps out of game like MSN. (GASP!), that would be appreciated. Please evemail me, Aries Acheron if you're interested? Seeya and keep writing! :D ~~~ Survive Eve! Eve Tribune
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:38:00 - [48] As a student of politics and military history in RL I just have to say how refreshing and well thought out these reads have been, even if I dont agree personally with some of your thesis. Still Id like to give you the benefit of the doubt in your defense that it has more to do with a lack of perspective or lack of reliable sources than any diliberate bias one way or the other. Your analysis is by far and away the most well thoughtout of the war to date and you should be commended on your efforts. I would love to have the time to write out an analysis of regionalisation and the effect this has on the socio-political canvas of eve, using the Drone Regions contribution to the war as a case study but tbh im snowed under with RL work as it atm. Maybe during the summer break ill get around to it. Keep up the excellent work. To those who are accusing the writer of bias, I can only chuckle. Of course there is bias, he admits himself that his perspective is going to be tainted by his own association and viewpoint on the war. This thesis is not an absolute "truth" or completely accurate portrayal of the reality of the war, nor does it claim to be. Its one persons well thought out opinion and should be viewed as such. Any claims he has made he has backed up with references or stated that they are musings of his own mind- I really dont think you can ask much more from an analysis of an online struggle tbh. 10/10 Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
Swanny231 KAOS. KA0S Theory	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:39:00 - [49] Originally by: wicked cheese been good reads so far. cant wait for "part 27: thorax, avatar, and armageddon. coincidence or not?" Lmao, To the OP: Great series and I am looking forward to more, keep em coming, they are a refreshing change in this forum. ------------ This is my sig, there are many like this, but this one is mine ! Oh let's not forget I have been told I am the Token Black Guy Pfffft
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:42:00 - [50] Originally by: Devian 666 Eve has one feature that reduces the likelihood of revolt is that you can "like it or leave it". This is different from the real world where you might not have another country to turn to if you don't like your current country. For member corps in eve you can always turn to empire if you don't like your leadership. Yeah, couldnt agree more. This really is one major factor that differentiates RL politics from Evetics. Not recognising this and adapting RL comparisons or operational models to corps within eve tends to lead to some bad assumptions, decisions and results. Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:42:00 - [51] Edited by: Malcanis on 15/10/2007 06:42:38 Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik As a student of politics and military history in RL I just have to say how refreshing and well thought out these reads have been, even if I dont agree personally with some of your thesis. Still Id like to give you the benefit of the doubt in your defense that it has more to do with a lack of perspective or lack of reliable sources than any diliberate bias one way or the other. Your analysis is by far and away the most well thoughtout of the war to date and you should be commended on your efforts. I would love to have the time to write out an analysis of regionalisation and the effect this has on the socio-political canvas of eve, using the Drone Regions contribution to the war as a case study but tbh im snowed under with RL work as it atm. Maybe during the summer break ill get around to it. Keep up the excellent work. To those who are accusing the writer of bias, I can only chuckle. Of course there is bias, he admits himself that his perspective is going to be tainted by his own association and viewpoint on the war. This thesis is not an absolute "truth" or completely accurate portrayal of the reality of the war, nor does it claim to be. Its one persons well thought out opinion and should be viewed as such. Any claims he has made he has backed up with references or stated that they are musings of his own mind- I really dont think you can ask much more from an analysis of an online struggle tbh. 10/10 Random thought: CCP already employs an economist, and the guy has said that he finds EvE's game economy is a truly interesting experiment. I wonder if a historian might also find something worthwhile in the game? All the elements are there: different societial types, class struggle, moral systems in conflict: economic conflict, military conflict, philosophical conflict. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Swanny231 KAOS. KA0S Theory	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:45:00 - [52] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer I mean no offense to our good friends the Goons and allies when I say this, but when I saw "cooperative nations model", and thought of the Goons, I had a mental picture of the delegates to the UN having a kegger and taking turns telling fart jokes and see which one can make the translator snort beer out his nose. This might actually be a more productive model for the UN. ------------ This is my sig, there are many like this, but this one is mine ! Oh let's not forget I have been told I am the Token Black Guy Pfffft
Jurgurtha O RLY corp YTMND.	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:56:00 - [53] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Yeah, couldnt agree more. This really is one major factor that differentiates RL politics from Evetics. Not recognising this and adapting RL comparisons or operational models to corps within eve tends to lead to some bad assumptions, decisions and results. Evetics... somehow I dont see this one catching on...
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.15 07:32:00 - [54] Originally by: Jurgurtha Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Yeah, couldnt agree more. This really is one major factor that differentiates RL politics from Evetics. Not recognising this and adapting RL comparisons or operational models to corps within eve tends to lead to some bad assumptions, decisions and results. Evetics... somehow I dont see this one catching on... I scratched my head for all of about 3 minutes on this. Couldnt think of a better name for it. Eve-o-tics? MachiEVEllian discourse? Undoubtedly tho, RL frameworks or political theories have to be bastardised to incorperate game mechanics. Theres much to be said about the support of Neo-realist doctrines in the NBSI policies of most alliances, but you cant transplant the actual political theory to eve, it needs to be adapted. So I say someone come up with a nice hybrid. Perhaps New Edenism would best describe this penchant for in depth analysis of virtual pewpew. As for the above poster who suggested CCP hire an historian to actually develop a "History of New Eden", all I can say is sign me up- that would be awesome, tho I doubt they would pay me to do it. One can dream however... Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
Arokan Manturi Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.15 08:46:00 - [55] I cant be bothered to reading all of this
Jaikar Isillia Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:50:00 - [56] Originally by: Death Church I still can't believe KOS is still around. itz cuz wearz nightz
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:55:00 - [57] Originally by: Arokan Manturi I can't be bothered to reading all of this Maybe you should try, it might help with your own grammatical errors. Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
Miss KillSome Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.10.15 11:40:00 - [58] very good reading!! Keep it coming. And where is todays lesson?? i am so bored at school, need something to read..
HawkSC RND5	Posted - 2007.10.15 12:13:00 - [59] Originally by: Malcanis Random thought: CCP already employs an economist, and the guy has said that he finds EvE's game economy is a truly interesting experiment. I wonder if a historian might also find something worthwhile in the game? All the elements are there: different societial types, class struggle, moral systems in conflict: economic conflict, military conflict, philosophical conflict. Who says they don't have more experts sitting back-stage? CCP stands for Crowd Control Productions... http://www.answers.com/topic/ccp-hf It is a great game, but it could be a great science / other experiment...And they have to be mad not to use all the opportunities...
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.15 15:27:00 - [60] While a good analysis of the motivations of the big power blocks, there was not enough focus on the roles of the smaller players/pets among them. Specifically, the motivation that a Bob Pet feels towards their space is the desire to maintain a profit generating space. Meanwhile, the Coalition does not enslave Pets - rather most are small alliances which built infrastructure themselves. What that means is that a Pet who is pushed has a much lower maximum morale and can more easily abandon its space. After all, should Bob win, there will be other places to rent. Fighting to the death for Home and Country just isn't something they are motivated for. Besides, 6 bill a month drain on an alliance is nothing to laugh at. Coalition members are automatous states, who can't exactly just sign a new rent agreement on the other side of town. If a Coalition alliance gets hit, like Razor and MM recently did, they either fight like hell to get that space back or slink away to Empire and start from scratch. Most small alliances know that they are fighting for their very right to be in 0.0. This gives them a higher maximum morale. Coalition members also suffer from infighting problems. If two Pets were to fight each other, Bob would just pull the rental agreement on one of them and that would be that. Coalition alliances fight amongst themselves with little regard to what RSF thinks. I cite as examples the SMASH/Roadkill vs MADPACT skirmish and Rule of Three vs Angels of Discord events. Such events distract from the greater goal of killing Bob. Pets don't suffer from infighting because Bob won't let them (in effect, Bob just chooses the victor.)

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