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WhatIsItGoodFor
Absolutely Nothin
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:17:00 -
[1]
Previously: War Analysis Part 3: CCP Sucks
Coldest of All Cold Monsters
Today, I'll be examining the social/governmental structures of the two major "powerblocs," describing the pros and cons of each.
Personally, I find this aspect of Eve the most interesting. Despite CCP's in-game terminology of "corporations" and "alliances," very few corporations resemble a business whatsoever (and CCP's tools for such operations are surprisingly poor). "Alliances" is a word evoking a broader entity than the alliance mechanic embodies, and would be more fitting for the entities most consider as supra-alliances of powerblocs, such as RSF and allies or the GBC.
Rather, most of the group dynamics in Eve should be reflected in governmental terms; states, nation-states, semi-feudalism, representative democracy, dictatorship, communism, authoritarianism, or, for you Amarr roleplayers, theocracy.
As Eve is a video game, most of the populace of the game involved in such politics don't actively think of their organizations in this way -- and I doubt many of their leaders spend much time thinking in this way either. The dynamics of most organizations are not actively modeled after real-world forms of government; they spontaneously arise as players feel out how to best operate their particular group, perhaps tweaking here or there to increase the utility of the organization, rather than to adhere to an established method of governance. Naturally, there are exceptions. I would argue that most of the groups actively modeled after existing governmental models are the democracies; while democracy works admirably well in the real world, it requires a significant amount of effort to establish a unique set of rules to apply it to Eve and is thus more likely to be an artificially imposed structure than one that naturally evolved.
Further, corporations have been in the game since it started -- and alliances (formal or informal) have existed nearly as long. The length of their existences has allowed for significant development of different governing styles, which has resulted in the variety we now see. However, organized supra-alliances or "powerblocs" are arguably a relatively recent development in the lifespan of Eve.
The Greater BoB Community -- A Semi-feudal Model
The business arrangements between BoB and their tenants are not always clear, although many have been divulged as time has gone on. It appears that some are relatively "standard" deals -- 6 billion ISK per month per constellation is the most frequently quoted figure -- but that variations are made based on proximity to the battle lines or based on individual alliance (for example, MC paying in a week of free mercenary service per year).
However, I am unaware of any tenancy deals that are entirely free; in short, all tenants within the GBC must provide some type of payment to BoB in order to hold space within BoB's sphere of influence. Whether this is military payment, monetary payment, developmental payment (dropping outposts), or maintenance payment in hostile areas (front-line tenants still must provide and maintain all POSes that hold the area), it still represents an exchange that makes the semi-feudal characterization the most apt.
In return, tenants gain a section of space that is exclusively their own without having to conquer it themselves; assuming it is relatively unassaulted by hostile forces, it would take most alliances very little time to earn the money to pay their rent each month in addition to their own profits.
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WhatIsItGoodFor
Absolutely Nothin
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:18:00 -
[2]
Pros
First, the model creates a clear chain of command; BoB is in charge. Tenants are likely given a degree of autonomy, in that I doubt they are obligated to join BoB military fleets but rather frequently do so because they see the mutual benefit in defending against a hostile territorial invasion. However, it is clear that BoB is in charge of those joint fleets. Disputes among tenants are likely to be settled by BoB as well, and any development of the area (dropping outposts) is likely either ordered by BoB or only allowed when first cleared by BoB.
Second, the model inherently creates a bond of loyalty between lord and tenant; as most tenants are, at least at the beginning of their agreement, incapable of or uninterested in taking space by force, BoB offers them an opportunity that would not otherwise be open to many of them. This, in turn, motivates them to assist BoB when it is requested.
Third, the model results in nearly uniform politics and diplomacy; those who are red to BoB are red to the GBC, and those who are blue to BoB are blue to the GBC. While there are likely a few exceptions here or there (even within BoB itself -- for example, RKK being positive to Jericho Fraction while the rest of BoB is negative), it does result in a more efficient, centralized model of diplomacy.
Fourth, the model distributes the responsibility of 0.0 development in an organized fashion; rather than making one (or three, in the comparative case of the core three RSF alliances) responsible for developing multiple regions of space.
Cons
First, the central premise of the semi-feudal model is based on the assumption that BoB is able to protect the entirety of 0.0 territory that it rents out from territorial invasion; while this was a safe assumption to make when it was the most powerful supra-alliance or powerbloc in Eve, it is no longer this case. This weakens BoB's position to make demands of both with prospective tenants (see the recent defection of M.Pire) as well as existing tenants.
Second, feudalism is has inherent instabilities that encourage the revolt of tenants. BoB must necessarily delegate the responsibilities of 0.0 development and defense from roaming incursions to the tenants themselves; as tenants develop into stronger entities, they may grow to feel an ownership of their particular areas and desire greater independence. To avoid revolt, BoB must thus either bind their tenants to them by fostering their loyalty early, or maintain enough power that even their strongest tenants will not revolt for fear of eviction by BoB itself.
Third, it brings together tenants that may have difficulty cooperating with one another unless under direct supervision from BoB itself. Whether it is in mutual defense from roaming incursion gangs or cooperation for space development or resource sharing, it is less likely for that tenants will naturally assist one another in a semi-feudal environment unless the structure of that assistance has been established by BoB itself -- examples would include GBC-wide cooperative programs and intel channels. The very nature of semi-feudalism encourages division -- tenant A pays BoB for constellation X, tenant B pays BoB for constellation Y. While it is certainly possible for a semi-feudal system to develop cohesion among tenants, there is no cohesion inherently built into the system itself.
The RedSwarmFederation -- A Cooperative Nations Model
In this instance, RSF applies to not just the three alliances present in the title (RA, GS, TCF) but also the smaller alliances considered part of that powerbloc, such as UNL and KOS.
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Ramlir
0.0 Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:18:00 -
[3]
im ***
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WhatIsItGoodFor
Absolutely Nothin
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:18:00 -
[4]
I exclude IAC and AAA, only because while those groups are part of the powerbloc in the current war, if the war were to go in the favor of the larger Coalition's favor, it is questionable whether they would maintain as close a political relationship -- I suspect that AAA in particular would reset standings with many, if not all, of the RSF powerbloc with the exception of RA due to their history. This is not due to any perceived hostility between AAA and the rest of the RSF powerbloc, but rather simply that AAA are one of those groups that notoriously dislike an abundance of blues.
The defection of M.Pire also raises similar issues; if the GBC were to win the War, it is obvious that the new territory absorbed would be managed in a fashion similar to their current semi-feudal model. However, if the RSF were to win the War, it is highly unlikely that existing RSF alliances would absorb the entirety of former GBC space.
In that event, it remains to be seen whether the alliances that do claim some of that space will, at the end of the War, be part of the RSF powerbloc or not. For example, should M.Pire fully defect (where they stand with RSF is unclear, as comments from M.Pire members have conflicted) and take space in conjunction with RSF forces in Feythabolis or Esoteria, are unlikely to remain friendly to the core RSF alliances after the War concludes (although they may negotiate non-territorial invasion pacts).
This is all a long way of saying that while additional alliances may work with core RSF alliances and claim former GBC space (if the war tips in that direction), the discussion of the RSF as a Cooperative Nations model is primarily about those that are likely to remain in that powerbloc even after the War has concluded.
Another note worth making: the Cooperative Nations model also likely applies to the current Old North of RZR/MM/Pure and allies.
The Cooperative Nations model is as it sounds; a group of larger, autonomous alliances working cooperatively toward goals that benefit the whole. While individual alliances within the RSF may have smaller tenants, I am unaware of any such tenants that claim space; Amerame's term of "civilians" is particularly fitting. Each territorial claiming alliance has autonomy within their claimed space, and it is also not uncommon for overlap or sharing of space among those alliances to occur as well, as long as it does not interrupt efforts or tenant agreements of the sov-claiming alliance.
Pros
First, increased likelihood of cooperation militarily (either in defense of roaming gangs or in territorial warfare) and financially (sharing of space or resources). As the primary purpose of the Cooperative Nations model is mutual defense rather than rental of space, the individual alliances will be more motivated to assist one another to the end of making the larger powerbloc stronger.
I realize some will take issue with my use of the phrase "mutual defense," as the RSF has and continues to engage in offensive warfare; however, as I have argued previously, I believe that as soon as the GBC and the RSF coalesced into the entities they are today that war between them was inevitable -- the war is arguably one of defense for both, as neither believes they could ever coexist. In other words, I believe that, should the RSF win this War, that they will not engage in offensive territorial warfare as a single entity in the future (although individuals within the powerbloc may do so without the assistance of the rest) unless they encountered another threat to their existence like the GBC.
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Kirex
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:18:00 -
[5]
COMBO BREAKER
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WhatIsItGoodFor
Absolutely Nothin
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:19:00 -
[6]
Second, the limitation of sovereignty maintenance and control to alliances experienced in and equipped to handle them even under hostile conditions. While the GBC model distributes this effort across multiple tenants, the RSF model relies on a select handful of alliances to handle the effort in order to ensure it is handled properly. Even the weakest logistics link of the five RSF alliances named above, KOS, has exhibited much better logistical abilities than many GBC tenants -- for example, during the attempted GBC invasion earlier this year in C3-0YD.
Third, as each individual alliance is considered autonomous, the Cooperative Nations model do not contain any inherent reasons for revolt.
Cons
First, a lack of any clear chain of command. This means that any cooperative battle plan must be proposed, reviewed, and approved by all alliances that are involved, rather than being in the hands of a single alliance's leadership.
Second, a lack of centralized diplomacy can lead to diplomatic incidents or mixed standings; particular incidents of note would be those involving SMASH and Roadkill earlier this year, and more recently Curse Alliance. A similar situation could emerge should M.Pire fully side with the RSF in coming weeks, as it is difficult to imagine M.Corp (ex-LV) and RA setting standings to one another. In essence, the benefits of autonomy can result in mixed standings across the RSF alliances.
Third, while I argue that this model has no inherent qualities to encourage revolt or infighting, the effects of a major fallout among the alliances in the RSF powerbloc would be far more disastrous than the revolt of a BoB tenant. At the least, if a single member of the RSF powerbloc defected, it would result in a hostile entity close to the rest of the bloc (and, should that defector ally with other enemies, offer a beachhead for strikes at the rest of the RSF). At the worst, it could result in the dissolution of the entire powerbloc.
Conclusions
Ultimately, both the GBC semi-feudal model and the RSF cooperative nations model have significant pros and cons for all involved parties, whether landlord, tenant or ally, both in peace-time and during war.
In peace-time, the semi-feudal model is far more beneficial to small alliances; it offers the opportunity for them to reap the benefits of 0.0 territory without requiring the ability to claim it, whereas the cooperative nations model only offers such opportunity to smaller corporations operating as "civilians," or large friendly alliances capable of claiming space for themselves.
In war-time, the precise opposite is true, for reasons outlined in Part 1. Large alliances (including those in the cooperative nations model, as well as BoB and their most powerful tenants in the semi-feudal model) are able to withstand the challenges of war, and "civilians" in the cooperative nations model can flee with relatively few losses. However, the small tenant alliances of the semi-feudal model can likely do neither; the very reason the semi-feudal model benefits them in peace time is that they do not have adequate military power for territorial warfare, and attempts to flee will likely mean abandonment of significant assets used in the development of 0.0 infrastructure.
In truth, this means that the War is more likely to affect the semi-feudal model than vice versa -- I suspect that either BoB's weaker tenants will be removed by hostile forces, or BoB will pro-actively choose to rearrange its agreements and treat those weaker tenants as "civilians" who are not accountable for claiming territory or expected to engage in the War.
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WhatIsItGoodFor
Absolutely Nothin
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:20:00 -
[7]
On the other hand, the cooperative nations model is more likely to affect the War than vice versa -- specifically, the RSF's ability to continue acting as a cohesive entity despite being multiple entities will significantly affect their success or failure in the War, while it is unlikely that the War will change their model in an significant way.
Tomorrow will be War Analysis Part 5: The Bait of Sin. This will examine and debunk popular talking points and trolls used as propaganda by both sides of the current War. While I appreciate the posters who have complimented my threads to date as being a "refreshing change for CAOD," the intention of these threads has not been to change the style of CAOD discourse (which is impossible). I appreciate good trolls and snappy comebacks; the key word there being good. I hope that discussing the most common ones for their accuracy or relevance will prompt people to, at the least, come up with better ones.
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Mi Tinkura
Heimdall Space Transportation Systems Holding
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:21:00 -
[8]
epic first
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Rbel Ion
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:23:00 -
[9]
I've not read any of your posts.
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Ramlir
0.0 Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:24:00 -
[10]
to those wondering what i was saying above, it was im ga y
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Kurt Armstrong
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:35:00 -
[11]
Again another interesting read.
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Natas Dog
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:07:00 -
[12]
Not bad. I'm curious which trolls are going to be called out in the next installment.
_______________________________________________________________
He who laughs last... is usually the one the joke was about. |
Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:09:00 -
[13]
you just broke my eyes
Paradox V2.0 is recruiting! |
Nek Tuomatta
Advanced Combat Machines and Equipment
Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:09:00 -
[14]
Will be a nice read. Did I make first page?
You are now reading my sig!
 Originally by: Gaius Kador
Nothing surprises me as to the lengths Star Fraction will go to push their propaganda on the public masses.
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Calimor
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:16:00 -
[15]
Nice read, good job.
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Ramlir
0.0 Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:16:00 -
[16]
The OP is a goon btw and his continued seriousposting is an embarassment.
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Ramlir
0.0 Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ramlir
The OP is a goon btw and his continued seriousposting is an embarassment.
mlyp
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Dr Paithos
Minmatar
Republic Deep Space Institute
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ramlir
to those wondering what i was saying above, it was im ga y
You should really start a new thread for that, want help with the banner?
Originally by: RedFall
How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.
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Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:25:00 -
[19]
Very nice post, tho tbh i worry for you reading so much from a game of internet spaceships. Then again some of us do take it all a bit too seriously dont we :)
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Mag's
MASS
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:31:00 -
[20]
Great read once again, many thx. 
Mag's
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Phrixus Zephyr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 22:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ramlir
to those wondering what i was saying above, it was im ga y
Nobody cares.
Originally by: consider telos
..then we had a fight and he was so dead and
then I like became champion of eve and then
ccp gave me a medal and a t-shirt and asked
me to go out with him on a date to mcD' |
Celestra Doxaila
Enosis
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Posted - 2007.10.13 22:23:00 -
[22]
Thanks for some more good analysis. This is the kind of stuff I play eve for.
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KIZERIAN
Caldari
SKORPION CORP
Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2007.10.13 22:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor
I am unaware of any such tenants that claim space.
Good to see our pet alliance cloak t2 works a treat.
KIZ
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Lunas Feelgood
S.A.S
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.10.13 22:25:00 -
[24]
Simply awesome. Really enojoyed that
Picture
Image changed to link as you may only have 1 image in your signature. -Yipsilanti ([email protected])
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.10.13 22:35:00 -
[25]
In on the first page \o/
Reading now.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated) |
Ramlir
0.0 Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.13 22:36:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Originally by: Ramlir
to those wondering what i was saying above, it was im ga y
Nobody cares.
homophobe
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 22:36:00 -
[27]
Excellent analysis IMO, spot on. I believe you have conveyed the differences between the GBC and RSF model excellently.
Semi-Feudal/Feudal and Cooperative Nations, describes the two models perfectly. I'm going to have to quote you from here in another thread, to hammer home a few points.
Furthermore..
Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor
I appreciate good trolls and snappy comebacks; the key word there being good. I hope that discussing the most common ones for their accuracy or relevance will prompt people to, at the least, come up with better ones.
Really looking forward to this..... some lessons in forum etiquette for CAOD are long overdue !!
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Darkstar Deceiver
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Posted - 2007.10.13 23:01:00 -
[28]
first page!!!
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Digicomm
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.10.13 23:22:00 -
[29]
You can tell by now that you are not writing as a neutral observer. As it has been said all along there is no Neutral in EvE, everyone has a side, everyone is rooting for someone else and of course hoping another one to fail.
You fail at being completely objective. You have even put your spin on some things. Use less opinion and more fact.
However, I like to see more of this of course it does beat Goon circle jerk posts about Rise and the like.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.13 23:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Digicomm
You can tell by now that you are not writing as a neutral observer. As it has been said all along there is no Neutral in EvE, everyone has a side, everyone is rooting for someone else and of course hoping another one to fail.
You fail at being completely objective. You have even put your spin on some things. Use less opinion and more fact.
However, I like to see more of this of course it does beat Goon circle jerk posts about Rise and the like.
you might be right, but this guy over here is pretty much more neutral than 99.9% of the populace that frolics here in CAOD.
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planetary interaction idea! |
Local Her0
Minmatar
La Mancha Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.13 23:52:00 -
[31]
you write down what i think, if only i could write down what i think too
i'll keep on trying, and u keep writing 
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Natas Dog
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.13 23:53:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Natas Dog on 13/10/2007 23:53:04
Originally by: Grimpak
you might be right, but this guy over here is pretty much more neutral than 99.9% of the populace that frolics here in CAOD.
I thought replying to this effect, but he's an alt anyway. I tend to let the alts smack among themselves if I can help it. Unless this is DigitalCommunist's alt, in which case I reply with lol.
_______________________________________________________________
He who laughs last... is usually the one the joke was about. |
Cringeley
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.14 00:33:00 -
[33]
Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor
As Eve is a video game, most of the populace of the game involved in such politics don't actively think of their organizations in this way -- and I doubt many of their leaders spend much time thinking in this way either.
Goonfleet's early leadership contained a preponderance of current events dorks (including me) and we did actually think way too much about economic and political models. Remedial in particular had a permanent boner for the American economic libertarian model, but overall we ended up with a very effective Third Way style of economic management, in which the corp and sub units of the corp run logistics and other more specific programs that benefit the group, like free frigates or special ship reimbursements, but the vast bulk of the day to day logistics is handled through free market economics. We even, eventually, abandoned penalties for deliberate market relisting of war supplies put on sale at low prices by other goons.
The squad system was also a terrific goonfleet innovation. I don't know if anyone has ever done it on this scale in Eve before (or even at all, since we've been the largest single corp in the game since not long after our inception). I had nothing to do with it, and I thought at the time that it would just divide our strength. But it's been tremendously important both culturally and as a kind of competitive force (but not bitter competition) driving people to greater efforts. Squads arose out of deliberate forethought and debate in the directorship about how the corp could be structured to deal with multiple competing goals and projects that didn't necessarily require everyone working on them. The original idea was that squads would bid on contracts for the corp and then carry them out independently, but even though that went by the wayside the squads have still been superb at stopping a multi-thousand pilot corporation from turning into a faceless mass. It's not just one big community, it has smaller communities inside.
Of course that's a bit like the corp->alliance structure that most alliances have, but this was a top down restructuring of the corporation and everyone retains their goonfleet identity first and foremost, whereas for corps joining alliances the structure comes from the bottom up and there is a relatively strong tendency for corps to split off when times are tough or their interests change.
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Sivlan
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.14 00:45:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Cringeley
Remedial in particular had a permanent boner for the American economic libertarian model, but overall we ended up with a very effective Third Way style of economic management,
"lolbertarianism"
Originally by: Cringeley
The squad system was also a terrific goonfleet innovation. I don't know if anyone has ever done it on this scale in Eve before (or even at all, since we've been the largest single corp in the game since not long after our inception). I had nothing to do with it, and I thought at the time that it would just divide our strength. But it's been tremendously important both culturally and as a kind of competitive force (but not bitter competition) driving people to greater efforts.
**** Gamma, seriously.
Originally by: Cringeley
Of course that's a bit like the corp->alliance structure that most alliances have, but this was a top down restructuring of the corporation and everyone retains their goonfleet identity first and foremost, whereas for corps joining alliances the structure comes from the bottom up and there is a relatively strong tendency for corps to split off when times are tough or their interests change.
This is spot on. Goons are all goons, but some goons are more :downs: than others.
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Colonel Drego
Silver Snake Enterprise
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.10.14 02:46:00 -
[35]
You are doing an entirely excellent job, and every post has been a great read. Keep it up.
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Tetsujin
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.14 03:24:00 -
[36]
i believe that the strength of the "cooperative nations" model relies implicitly on the main powers in the group being autocracies. this allows for planning and implementation to be handled and discussed relatively swiftly by a very limited number of individuals within the group.
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WraithFire
Cassandra's Light
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.14 03:35:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tetsujin
i believe that the strength of the "cooperative nations" model relies implicitly on the main powers in the group being autocracies. this allows for planning and implementation to be handled and discussed relatively swiftly by a very limited number of individuals within the group.
Ummm.... yeah like what he said. 
BTW, this is an interesting thread. It is rivetting and out right enchanting read. I have to say, " One of the best thread of the year." In addition, two thumbs up from Ebert and Roeper plus mine too. So, make it 3 thumbs up. 
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Death Church
The Night Corporation
Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.10.14 04:41:00 -
[38]
I still can't believe KOS is still around.
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Thoric Frosthammer
Fallen Angels Inc
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.10.14 05:18:00 -
[39]
I mean no offense to our good friends the Goons and allies when I say this, but when I saw "cooperative nations model", and thought of the Goons, I had a mental picture of the delegates to the UN having a kegger and taking turns telling fart jokes and see which one can make the translator snort beer out his nose.
This might actually be a more productive model for the UN.
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Schlieren Altiprlayle
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.14 05:22:00 -
[40]
man oh man do i ever love fart jokes
____________________________
stop posting |
Martin VanBuren
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.14 05:25:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer
I mean no offense to our good friends the Goons and allies when I say this, but when I saw "cooperative nations model", and thought of the Goons, I had a mental picture of the delegates to the UN having a kegger and taking turns telling fart jokes and see which one can make the translator snort beer out his nose.
This might actually be a more productive model for the UN.
Actually we are alot more like mid 19th century America, furthermore
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Sanka Cofie
Amarr
Nubs.
D-L
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Posted - 2007.10.14 15:08:00 -
[42]
I always thought GOON was an anarcho-syndicalist commune that takes it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,
but by a two thirds majority in the case of...
-[WillChat4ISK]-
I can be the handsome Amarr space captain.
You can be the helpless Minmatar slave girl. |
Tetsujin
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.14 15:34:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Sanka Cofie
I always thought GOON was an anarcho-syndicalist commune that takes it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,
but by a two thirds majority in the case of...
no that's Rise.
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duckmonster
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.14 17:45:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Sanka Cofie
I always thought GOON was an anarcho-syndicalist commune that takes it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,
but by a two thirds majority in the case of...
Is layla still in D-L?
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HI IM DUCKMONSTER |
grindel
Caldari
Quantum Industries
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.14 17:48:00 -
[45]
Again, great post, thx.
I like Thorics' proposal !
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Devian 666
Sectoid Technologies
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Posted - 2007.10.14 23:47:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Sanka Cofie
I always thought GOON was an anarcho-syndicalist commune that takes it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,
but by a two thirds majority in the case of...
For effective leadership a small number of people need to make important decisions.
Even in real world governments which are democracies which depend on a simple majority you find even minority governments still have agreements with other political parties to form a majority on important issues.
So autocracies make decisions which are decisive and rapid but may annoy members. Though this is proven to be effective in eve (given that everyone is so combat orientated).
Eve has one feature that reduces the likelihood of revolt is that you can "like it or leave it". This is different from the real world where you might not have another country to turn to if you don't like your current country. For member corps in eve you can always turn to empire if you don't like your leadership.
I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Originally by: rycar
Devian 666 is awesome quote this if you're down
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Aries Acheron
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.10.15 02:56:00 -
[47]
WhatIsItGoodFor, may I ask if I can contact you for Eve Tribune? Be it by this alt or any other character. I'd like to repost much of what you've written there, as well as interview you by some means if possible. If you'd like to leave some contact information, perhaps out of game like MSN. (GASP!), that would be appreciated.
Please evemail me, Aries Acheron if you're interested? Seeya and keep writing! :D
~~~
Survive Eve!
Eve Tribune
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PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.15 06:38:00 -
[48]
As a student of politics and military history in RL I just have to say how refreshing and well thought out these reads have been, even if I dont agree personally with some of your thesis. Still Id like to give you the benefit of the doubt in your defense that it has more to do with a lack of perspective or lack of reliable sources than any diliberate bias one way or the other.
Your analysis is by far and away the most well thoughtout of the war to date and you should be commended on your efforts. I would love to have the time to write out an analysis of regionalisation and the effect this has on the socio-political canvas of eve, using the Drone Regions contribution to the war as a case study but tbh im snowed under with RL work as it atm. Maybe during the summer break ill get around to it.
Keep up the excellent work.
To those who are accusing the writer of bias, I can only chuckle. Of course there is bias, he admits himself that his perspective is going to be tainted by his own association and viewpoint on the war. This thesis is not an absolute "truth" or completely accurate portrayal of the reality of the war, nor does it claim to be. Its one persons well thought out opinion and should be viewed as such. Any claims he has made he has backed up with references or stated that they are musings of his own mind- I really dont think you can ask much more from an analysis of an online struggle tbh.
10/10
Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place?
Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag |
Swanny231
KAOS.
KA0S Theory
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Posted - 2007.10.15 06:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: wicked cheese
been good reads so far. cant wait for "part 27: thorax, avatar, and armageddon. coincidence or not?"
Lmao,
To the OP: Great series and I am looking forward to more, keep em coming, they are a refreshing change in this forum.
------------
This is my sig, there are many like this, but this one is mine !
Oh let's not forget I have been told I am the Token Black Guy Pfffft |
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.15 06:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Devian 666
Eve has one feature that reduces the likelihood of revolt is that you can "like it or leave it". This is different from the real world where you might not have another country to turn to if you don't like your current country. For member corps in eve you can always turn to empire if you don't like your leadership.
Yeah, couldnt agree more. This really is one major factor that differentiates RL politics from Evetics. Not recognising this and adapting RL comparisons or operational models to corps within eve tends to lead to some bad assumptions, decisions and results.
Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place?
Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag |
Malcanis
High4Life
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 06:42:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Malcanis on 15/10/2007 06:42:38
Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
As a student of politics and military history in RL I just have to say how refreshing and well thought out these reads have been, even if I dont agree personally with some of your thesis. Still Id like to give you the benefit of the doubt in your defense that it has more to do with a lack of perspective or lack of reliable sources than any diliberate bias one way or the other.
Your analysis is by far and away the most well thoughtout of the war to date and you should be commended on your efforts. I would love to have the time to write out an analysis of regionalisation and the effect this has on the socio-political canvas of eve, using the Drone Regions contribution to the war as a case study but tbh im snowed under with RL work as it atm. Maybe during the summer break ill get around to it.
Keep up the excellent work.
To those who are accusing the writer of bias, I can only chuckle. Of course there is bias, he admits himself that his perspective is going to be tainted by his own association and viewpoint on the war. This thesis is not an absolute "truth" or completely accurate portrayal of the reality of the war, nor does it claim to be. Its one persons well thought out opinion and should be viewed as such. Any claims he has made he has backed up with references or stated that they are musings of his own mind- I really dont think you can ask much more from an analysis of an online struggle tbh.
10/10
Random thought: CCP already employs an economist, and the guy has said that he finds EvE's game economy is a truly interesting experiment. I wonder if a historian might also find something worthwhile in the game? All the elements are there: different societial types, class struggle, moral systems in conflict: economic conflict, military conflict, philosophical conflict.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Swanny231
KAOS.
KA0S Theory
|
Posted - 2007.10.15 06:45:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer
I mean no offense to our good friends the Goons and allies when I say this, but when I saw "cooperative nations model", and thought of the Goons, I had a mental picture of the delegates to the UN having a kegger and taking turns telling fart jokes and see which one can make the translator snort beer out his nose.
This might actually be a more productive model for the UN.
 
------------
This is my sig, there are many like this, but this one is mine !
Oh let's not forget I have been told I am the Token Black Guy Pfffft |
Jurgurtha
O RLY corp
YTMND.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 06:56:00 -
[53]
Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Yeah, couldnt agree more. This really is one major factor that differentiates RL politics from Evetics. Not recognising this and adapting RL comparisons or operational models to corps within eve tends to lead to some bad assumptions, decisions and results.
Evetics... somehow I dont see this one catching on...
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PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.15 07:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jurgurtha
Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Yeah, couldnt agree more. This really is one major factor that differentiates RL politics from Evetics. Not recognising this and adapting RL comparisons or operational models to corps within eve tends to lead to some bad assumptions, decisions and results.
Evetics... somehow I dont see this one catching on...
I scratched my head for all of about 3 minutes on this. Couldnt think of a better name for it. Eve-o-tics? MachiEVEllian discourse?
Undoubtedly tho, RL frameworks or political theories have to be bastardised to incorperate game mechanics. Theres much to be said about the support of Neo-realist doctrines in the NBSI policies of most alliances, but you cant transplant the actual political theory to eve, it needs to be adapted. So I say someone come up with a nice hybrid. Perhaps New Edenism would best describe this penchant for in depth analysis of virtual pewpew.
As for the above poster who suggested CCP hire an historian to actually develop a "History of New Eden", all I can say is sign me up- that would be awesome, tho I doubt they would pay me to do it.
One can dream however...
Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place?
Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag |
Arokan Manturi
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:46:00 -
[55]
I cant be bothered to reading all of this
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Jaikar Isillia
Blue Labs
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:50:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Death Church
I still can't believe KOS is still around.
itz cuz wearz nightz
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PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
|
Posted - 2007.10.15 09:55:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Arokan Manturi
I can't be bothered to reading all of this
Maybe you should try, it might help with your own grammatical errors.
Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place?
Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag |
Miss KillSome
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.10.15 11:40:00 -
[58]
very good reading!!
Keep it coming.
And where is todays lesson?? i am so bored at school, need something to read..
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HawkSC RND5
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Posted - 2007.10.15 12:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Malcanis
Random thought: CCP already employs an economist, and the guy has said that he finds EvE's game economy is a truly interesting experiment. I wonder if a historian might also find something worthwhile in the game? All the elements are there: different societial types, class struggle, moral systems in conflict: economic conflict, military conflict, philosophical conflict.
Who says they don't have more experts sitting back-stage?
CCP stands for Crowd Control Productions...
http://www.answers.com/topic/ccp-hf
It is a great game, but it could be a great science / other experiment...And they have to be mad not to use all the opportunities...
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Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.10.15 15:27:00 -
[60]
While a good analysis of the motivations of the big power blocks, there was not enough focus on the roles of the smaller players/pets among them. Specifically, the motivation that a Bob Pet feels towards their space is the desire to maintain a profit generating space. Meanwhile, the Coalition does not enslave Pets - rather most are small alliances which built infrastructure themselves.
What that means is that a Pet who is pushed has a much lower maximum morale and can more easily abandon its space. After all, should Bob win, there will be other places to rent. Fighting to the death for Home and Country just isn't something they are motivated for. Besides, 6 bill a month drain on an alliance is nothing to laugh at.
Coalition members are automatous states, who can't exactly just sign a new rent agreement on the other side of town. If a Coalition alliance gets hit, like Razor and MM recently did, they either fight like hell to get that space back or slink away to Empire and start from scratch. Most small alliances know that they are fighting for their very right to be in 0.0. This gives them a higher maximum morale.
Coalition members also suffer from infighting problems. If two Pets were to fight each other, Bob would just pull the rental agreement on one of them and that would be that.
Coalition alliances fight amongst themselves with little regard to what RSF thinks. I cite as examples the SMASH/Roadkill vs MADPACT skirmish and Rule of Three vs Angels of Discord events. Such events distract from the greater goal of killing Bob. Pets don't suffer from infighting because Bob won't let them (in effect, Bob just chooses the victor.)
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Aries Acheron
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.10.15 16:57:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Princess Jodi
While a good analysis of the motivations of the big power blocks, there was not enough focus on the roles of the smaller players/pets among them. Specifically, the motivation that a Bob Pet feels towards their space is the desire to maintain a profit generating space. Meanwhile, the Coalition does not enslave Pets - rather most are small alliances which built infrastructure themselves.
What that means is that a Pet who is pushed has a much lower maximum morale and can more easily abandon its space. After all, should Bob win, there will be other places to rent. Fighting to the death for Home and Country just isn't something they are motivated for. Besides, 6 bill a month drain on an alliance is nothing to laugh at.
Coalition members are automatous states, who can't exactly just sign a new rent agreement on the other side of town. If a Coalition alliance gets hit, like Razor and MM recently did, they either fight like hell to get that space back or slink away to Empire and start from scratch. Most small alliances know that they are fighting for their very right to be in 0.0. This gives them a higher maximum morale.
Coalition members also suffer from infighting problems. If two Pets were to fight each other, Bob would just pull the rental agreement on one of them and that would be that.
Coalition alliances fight amongst themselves with little regard to what RSF thinks. I cite as examples the SMASH/Roadkill vs MADPACT skirmish and Rule of Three vs Angels of Discord events. Such events distract from the greater goal of killing Bob. Pets don't suffer from infighting because Bob won't let them (in effect, Bob just chooses the victor.)
That's largely propaganda. There's a few rental entities who do it for money, but just as many actually want to have a stake in a system. Or just to fight RSF/IAAAC for their own reasons. Xelas did what you basically said, and well. They're pretty useless. Many of the others will fight, since they've invested into space that is 'their' turf now. Even if it was originally rented or bought. Incidentally, these are the guys with the free deals (Exuro, Fix, etc)
~~~
Survive Eve!
Eve Tribune
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Aperion Madante
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.15 18:20:00 -
[62]
Your analysis is interesting to say the least, though I would say there's an inherent strength in the cooperative nations model that RSF has that you're missing. Keep in mind, I don't know enough of the inner workings of the GBC to fully comment in this non-fakepost.
First off, those who join that have been displaced from another region, or if a new alliance wants to carve out a chunk of territory in the Coalition for their first time are given the opportunity. We don't give out territory for free, however. Those who want it must bring something to the table, whether that's contributing to the overall war in ships, assisting in logistics support, throwing up POSes, whatever it is they're good at so long as it contributes meaningfully in some way. Once it's decided we like them well enough, they're either given a piece of space in existing RSF territory if it can be spared and agreed upon, or newly conquered space on the front lines.
What this does not guarantee is that GoonSwarm will come to that alliance's aid if they get invaded (clarification: this isn't to say we wouldn't defend an ally because that would be just dumb). They must be self-sufficient and able to fend off attacks of relative size to their own. We want each member of the Coalition to be strong in their own right should we not be able to come to their aid. Also, what they do in their space is their own business once it's theirs. They can tell us (GoonSwarm) to take a hike if they don't want us ratting/mining there and would be within their rights to kill/pod a goon if they didn't comply.
Knights of Southerncross as an example were once a Lokta Volterra pet that were incapable of defending against the advancing RA/Goon fleet and fell apart quickly. However, as part of the RSF I see them a far more capable now than they ever were under LV, and they do participate meaningfully in the war. Furthermore, they have defended successfully against a BoB attempt to take space belonging to them (whether or not it was a serious attempt by BoB, who knows, and I know they'd never answer honestly). Anyone who says they're useless either aren't going on ops, not part of RSF and have no clue, or just plain stupid.
Now, this isn't to say that we don't have tenants who rent space because we do. They are not required to take part in the war and usually have only a few reasons for wanting space. What they pay for are the rights to a certain system (or even just a moon), blue standings, and the guarantee that we won't blow them up. Everything else is up to them.
RSF doesn't use nor want pets. We have a big enough circlejerk going on as is without someone else trying to suck us off for favors. But anyone who joins the coalition does so knowing who we are, who our enemies are, and that we will laugh at them if they screw up. This goes both ways, though, and they'd better be ready to laugh at us for the inevitable screw-ups we have of our own.
I won't kid anyone: I'm biased, but if you can look past my alliance tag and give a real response/argument to this, I can promise I'll respond in kind. But only this once.
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WhatIsItGoodFor
Absolutely Nothin
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Posted - 2007.10.15 20:24:00 -
[63]
Apologies for the delay on Part 5. I hope to have it finished within the next 8 hours, but that depends on a few things. It might have to wait until tomorrow.
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WraithFire
Cassandra's Light
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.15 23:37:00 -
[64]
Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor
Apologies for the delay on Part 5. I hope to have it finished within the next 8 hours, but that depends on a few things. It might have to wait until tomorrow.
Woot! Are you neglecting your duties? 
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Sky Grunthor
Minmatar
MKS Directorate
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Posted - 2007.10.17 15:37:00 -
[65]
  Impatient for next installment
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Danyael Tyren
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.17 17:57:00 -
[66]
Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor
Apologies for the delay on Part 5. I hope to have it finished within the next 8 hours, but that depends on a few things. It might have to wait until tomorrow.
Take your time, we'll just have to find something else to post about here.
Not like all the forum *****s here aren't already spamming F5.
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Elfaen Ethenwe
Eternal Rising
EternalRising
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Posted - 2007.10.18 02:36:00 -
[67]
i actually enjoyed reading this thread i just left it a few days to be de-trolled. Its been a while since i could say that. Keep it up.
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Eventus
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.18 04:58:00 -
[68]
/runs from the walls of text as they close in
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sartorii
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.19 05:25:00 -
[69]
while an interesting read, this is the worst in the series IMO..
far to much conjecture and supposition compared to previous threads.. this installment qualifies mostly as an 'opinion' post.. Your previous installments were more in the 'analysis' vein, and far more accurate and interesting.
"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic] |
WhatIsItGoodFor
Absolutely Nothin
|
Posted - 2007.10.24 13:37:00 -
[70]
As happens, real life has interfered with the writing of the final three Analysis posts that are yet to come, although for anyone interested, there's an interview with me up on Eve Tribune.
However, recent events prompt me to bump this thread with a quote:
Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor
In truth, this means that the War is more likely to affect the semi-feudal model than vice versa -- I suspect that either BoB's weaker tenants will be removed by hostile forces, or BoB will pro-actively choose to rearrange its agreements and treat those weaker tenants as "civilians" who are not accountable for claiming territory or expected to engage in the War.
BoB's current evacuation of Feythabolis, Paragon Soul, and Esoteria and the opening of all regions to their tenants has borne this theory out, although in a slightly different manner than the "civilians" in TCF space as described by Amerame. Rent paid in war service rather than ISK or assets that go directly to BoB, with all GBC space open (with restrictions on some areas).
This is an excellent shift in modus operandi by the GBC, reducing those who will claim territorial sovereignty to essentially BoB, MC, and FIX.
I suspect that had this change come two months ago, the GBC would have been in a stronger war position -- or, at least, found it easier to effectively evacuate Feythabolis as deemed necessary, rather than abandoning Esoteria and Paragon Soul outright.
I also suspect that, should the war either effectively stalemate or turn in the other direction once again, the GBC will retain this model for the duration of the war -- shared space among all GBC entities with some limitations, with exclusive right and territorial sovereignty held by only the fewest, strongest entities. While it is less beneficial economically for the GBC, I argued before (and remain convinced now) that it is a stronger model of governance during wartime.
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