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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.02.24 00:11:00 -
[1]
This is a thread for open discussion regarding the article title above. (Check it out here at Eve Guardian)
I ask the various sides to pick their corners, stop fighting over which CORNER please, and come out fighting. However let's keep the biting, the name calling, trolling, and rabbit punches to an absolute minimum.
I don't think the Ref will put up with any of our usual crap.
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Power
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Posted - 2004.02.24 01:00:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Power on 24/02/2004 01:13:09
 Quote:
and even bagged Kakalot's Scorpion a little bit ago.
emm that didnt happen.
Quote:
"held me up" with 5 blackbirds
try 2 Blackbirds and a MOA
You really should try and verify what ppl tell you before publishing it.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.02.24 01:45:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Shar Tegral on 24/02/2004 01:46:08
Quote:
You really should try and verify what ppl tell you before publishing it.
I humbly apologize. I would've have verified Gunny's quote... wait how do you verify a qoute?
He said it, and he said it to me. Ergo Verified. I retract my apology.
Of course I wonder... did you like the article? 
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.02.24 02:15:00 -
[4]
Quote:
You really should try and verify what ppl tell you before publishing it.
You really should try and think before posting.
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Femme Fatal
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Posted - 2004.02.24 02:20:00 -
[5]
Who would have thought that even months after creating it my magic hat phrase would stick to Ragnar and all those who would follow in his footsteps.. 
Anyone still got that link?
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.02.24 02:23:00 -
[6]
Hehe - classic phrase with its own private place in history.
(We also have 2 for sale if anybody wants one)
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Femme Fatal
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Posted - 2004.02.24 02:27:00 -
[7]
Reading this (very well written) article just made me realize that GunnyP was the first TTI that I ever killed/podded if I remember correctly while he was afk mining in a bestower with basic expanded cargos...
He's come a long way
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.02.24 03:05:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Reading this (very well written) article just made me realize that GunnyP was the first TTI that I ever killed/podded if I remember correctly while he was afk mining in a bestower with basic expanded cargos...
He's come a long way
And it was long ago... ergo you have come a long way yourself.
To be quite honest I remember you quite well myself. You never got near enough to me to target me but you did pod one or two of my people, from the TTI Sub-Crop that I was in.
To be quite honest those were fun days, they ended, we all moved on. But remembering isn't so bad... now that enough time has passed of course.
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.02.24 03:06:00 -
[9]
Has to be said that the recovery post-Ragnar was a surprise, didn't think they would make it. The recovery post the Corp-theft was nigh miraculous.
It would've torn apart the "old" TTi publically i suspect.... which in itself gives pause for thought.
They've done well to lie low and rebuild slowly and cautiously imo.
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Marquedios
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Posted - 2004.02.24 03:13:00 -
[10]
Wow!! Shar, I knew I knew that name. Not that I know you personally or have had any dealings with you, but in previous posts of yours (pretty sure it was you) you seemed to hate TTI with a passion. I want to thank you for posting such an article and opening this thread. That is really big of you.
Outstanding article and once again thank you for writing it :)
Tenßx Incorporated Online Application |
GunnyP
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Posted - 2004.02.24 03:15:00 -
[11]
Edited by: GunnyP on 24/02/2004 03:18:36
Quote:
Reading this (very well written) article just made me realize that GunnyP was the first TTI that I ever killed/podded if I remember correctly while he was afk mining in a bestower with basic expanded cargos...
He's come a long way
I remember it well... want a screen shot of my lowly It 4 being ganked? 
I also remember hunting you down that night and Necro poding you...
All in all a rather fun night...
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.02.24 04:36:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Wow!! Shar, I knew I knew that name. Not that I know you personally or have had any dealings with you, but in previous posts of yours (pretty sure it was you) you seemed to hate TTI with a passion. I want to thank you for posting such an article and opening this thread. That is really big of you.
Not as big as you might think. In public I always contained what I felt, as is appropriate for public demeanor. However in private I am free to shock the stuffing out of anyone I so choose... and I often do so.
What I railed against then was decisions or actions that were not entirely ... errr... ahhhh... wise. My arguments were never a reflection on how I feel about a person.
Goodness gracious if that was the case I'd have thrown out Eve long ago. Or even be working for EG since, to be quite honest, I loathed Morkt before I started working with him.
But I acknowledge that of all things I was a very disruptive influence at a very critical time. Of course those who decided, or "suggested", my removal didn't think that far or fair. And there are those around me who would say "what for" in a heartbeat. (Old Hermit is still a bit ****ed that I told him to knock off the Anti-TTI grind)
All in all I am still the same person I was then. I am glad to think that I can not say the same about TTI.
I think I do know what was wrong with TTI but the "in character" restrictions upon me, EG Journalism Standards, forbade me from going there.
TTI, Ragnar and his guys, and far too many other .... dweebs here make this mistake: Not letting go of Beta.
Darn it people. I realize those days were fun, were very interesting but in truth alot of stuff happened by a bunch of people who would only put virtual money down on it. When many of them decided to no longer pay becuase they had to pay... well that showed what their character was about, regardless of the generated fame.
And to be perfectly honest whatever occurred back then was absolutely encouraged. It was BETA ffs. CCP had to know what would happen if: Insert any doggone thing here.
But once it went live... and someone decided to bring up beta. Numbskull!
Second mistake: TTI started running... before it knew how to really walk. TTI started as a MegaCorp. Not transformed into one like many today. It really did start that way. Several hundred TTI employees ready AT LAUNCH.
However the game environment wasn't ready for it. TTI wasn't as well. And, truly, Eve failed TTI in many ways. But a good manager adjusts. TTI tried for too much, too soon. Splat.
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Femme Fatal
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Posted - 2004.02.24 04:47:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Femme Fatal on 24/02/2004 04:53:24
Ya that night was fun, as was that entire period of Eve (We had gotten kinda carried away after Ragnar had been forced to flee from my maller with its assortment of pulse lasers, which led to me sticking around a bit too long when a bit more capable Necro showed up  ). Over the time I fought TTI I actually met some nice people there, aswell as an assortment of idiots, but I guess thats bound to happen in any large corporation. Personally after seeing TTI falling as low as it did I didnt think that they would recover, and certainly not to this extent. Goes to show what a change in managment can do 
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.02.24 04:48:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/02/2004 04:51:44
It has certainly been an interesting year for Taggart. Very much a time of conflicts and great historical significance. Looking back on it all now still gives me a thrill of excitement to think of the crucial council meetings and bold rebellion thereafter. If anything though, the triumph of GunnyP and the new Taggart was to realise that sometimes surrender and ceasefire are not dirty words, and truly there is a need to draw a line under a conflict that you are losing. Many corporations and alliances could learn that lesson, and by accepting terms before it is too late, they gain space to change their path and destiny thereafter.
New Taggart has reaped the rewards for the vision shown by the post Ragnar leadership, and has (to the best of my knowledge) kept the pledges made to secure peace.
The great irony I guess is that Taggart is still strong and recovering even now while the alliance I helped to build to destroy Ragnar's tyranical dream is itself gone to history and faded from the north.
That Taggart should outlast the NVA is pretty much a testiment to GunnyP and his clever statesmanship, and one has to recognise deft decision-making even in a onetime foe.
Still, milady Femme Fatal, we will always have "the magic hat!" its entered the mythology of the eve universe and thats recognition enough for the early conflicts and bold guerilla resistence to the onetime nefarious megacorp. Truly you were an inspiration to us all in those days ...
For my part though I will always remember how six war-torn little corporations launched a movement to defeat a corrupt dictator, a wealthy megacorp and a host of pirate hirelings ... and that the revolution should ultimately fail is no shame nor reason to forget the memory of comrade's past and courage spent in noble cause.
Strange how the tides of war and peace do turn ms Tegral, and now you are remembered as a furious foe of Taggart when how differently matters stood last summer.
All things change.
And memory is flattering.
Love and peace
JF Public Forum |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.02.24 05:07:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Strange how the tides of war and peace do turn ms Tegral, and now you are remembered as a furious foe of Taggart when how differently matters stood last summer.
I can't help but laugh myself to apoplexy over this. Especially considering the black eyes you gave me when I was so valiantly trying to defend TTI on these very forums. Quite a lesson, all of them.
You notice my tagline. In it is probably the only deceit I've made... I knew, long before I did any reporting, that the switch from Hero to Zero is applicable to all.
As you pointed out... Here to Zero in 3-4 months. Not bad but says little for realities though.
PS: Kind words from you are good to hear. I guess not being a muppet encourages you to say them eh?
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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SYCO
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Posted - 2004.02.24 06:59:00 -
[16]
blah blah blah blah....nva will never be what VA was....with tti being pretty much the backbone....i miss it
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Shia Dai
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Posted - 2004.02.24 07:15:00 -
[17]
Quote:
I humbly apologize. I would've have verified Gunny's quote... wait how do you verify a qoute?
He said it, and he said it to me. Ergo Verified. I retract my apology.
Of course I wonder... did you like the article?
"Verifying a quote" means verifying that the facts asserted in a person's statement are true before you print them, offering them for truth. It is one thing to quote someone for the purpose of showing that they spoke the words of what is quoted - it is a totally different thing to quote someone in an attempt to show that the facts or events that the person spoke of actually occurred.
The critical difference is that the former is legit and appropriate whether or not the facts asserted in the quote are true or not, while the latter situation is hearsay and totally inappropriate without some other kind of corroboration of the facts. Here, your quote was offered for the purpose of proving the truth asserted therein - and thus you should have outside verification of those facts. Hearsay is generally inappropriate means of proving facts, both in a court of law and also in journalism.
So before you come out with your smart-ass remarks again try to think a little bit about what people are saying to you - you might learn something.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.02.24 14:50:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Shar Tegral on 24/02/2004 14:51:44
Quote:
"Verifying a quote" means verifying that the facts asserted in a person's statement are true before you print them, offering them for truth. It is one thing to quote someone for the purpose of showing that they spoke the words of what is quoted - it is a totally different thing to quote someone in an attempt to show that the facts or events that the person spoke of actually occurred.
There is a pointed lesson in Eve about "verification". Most times it is absolutely impossible. Claim/Counterclaim, screenshots and doctored screenshots, smack/no smack talk. Verifiable takes on a spin all of it's very own in Eve.
However there is something verifiable regarding this particular qoute. GunnyP. In a small dispute over claims I am inclined to believe GunnyP. I do not know the person who choose this as his point so the choice of what to accept as truth is not very difficult. (EG: S.I.T.S. "What is in a Name?")
Quote:
The critical difference is that the former is legit and appropriate whether or not the facts asserted in the quote are true or not, while the latter situation is hearsay and totally inappropriate without some other kind of corroboration of the facts. Here, your quote was offered for the purpose of proving the truth asserted therein - and thus you should have outside verification of those facts. Hearsay is generally inappropriate means of proving facts, both in a court of law and also in journalism.
A: The article has nothing to do with Combat. It is not a battle report. It is not a commentary on anyone other than TTI and at that point, specifically, GunnyP.
The qoute is, in and of itself, an example of the difference between TTI's current CEO and the former CEO. And it is only used as such.
B: I would not bandy the words Legit nor Journalism. Far too many people find rude surprises in both areas due to some very misconceived ideas. Neither area follows logic or reason for any great lengths of time.
Quote:
So before you come out with your smart-ass remarks again try to think a little bit about what people are saying to you - you might learn something.
To be quite honest, I receive alot of pointers (in e-mail) from people who have noticed my growth as a reporter. I also recieve alot of hate mail too... which I read and debate on the merits inside ignoring the delivery of the content.
The non-chalant way I answered the gentleman was quite intentional. I, again quite honestly, don't care about how many ships were present. Irrelevant.
As to the nature of his corporation... I'm sure that others would happily put them down but I don't care to. Again Irrelevant.
As you'll notice... I got to the point by wanting to know what he though about the rest of the article. If making light of a light situation is smart ass then guilty I am.
Of course I'm guilty of such things on a regular basis.
So... did you like the article?
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Power
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Posted - 2004.02.24 15:48:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Power on 24/02/2004 16:19:28
The artical was well written and an enjoyable read.
However i still believe CEOs of corp's concerned in artical's should be eve-mailed before hand.
Quote:
There is a pointed lesson in Eve about "verification". Most times it is absolutely impossible. Claim/Counterclaim, screenshots and doctored screenshots, smack/no smack talk. Verifiable takes on a spin all of it's very own in Eve.
More reason to make an attempt to contact someone in my opinion. As we could have easily showed gunny wasnt taken by 5 Blackbirds.
But for Kakalot losing his ship we have no evidence because it just didnt happen.
Ps I did say "try" and contact ceos. All i ment is that an eve-mail should be sent before publication of articals.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.02.24 16:04:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Quote:
I humbly apologize. I would've have verified Gunny's quote... wait how do you verify a qoute?
He said it, and he said it to me. Ergo Verified. I retract my apology.
Of course I wonder... did you like the article?
"Verifying a quote" means verifying that the facts asserted in a person's statement are true before you print them, offering them for truth. It is one thing to quote someone for the purpose of showing that they spoke the words of what is quoted - it is a totally different thing to quote someone in an attempt to show that the facts or events that the person spoke of actually occurred.
The critical difference is that the former is legit and appropriate whether or not the facts asserted in the quote are true or not, while the latter situation is hearsay and totally inappropriate without some other kind of corroboration of the facts. Here, your quote was offered for the purpose of proving the truth asserted therein - and thus you should have outside verification of those facts. Hearsay is generally inappropriate means of proving facts, both in a court of law and also in journalism.
So before you come out with your smart-ass remarks again try to think a little bit about what people are saying to you - you might learn something.
Its not a job, its a game news service.
It's a bit of fun that adds atmosphere and enjoyment to thousands of people who play. Its not a court of law and it doesnt have paid professional journalists working on it. Its a game news serive.
Im very sick of forum pedants trying to enforce unrealistic and unworkable pseudo-fantasy-RL ethics on a game news service because its how they imagine a real news service might work. (That and associated muppets who try to or threaten to sue us).There are NO tools to verify anything at all in EVE, which is why quotes are put forward as is - they are the statement of the person giving them - not EGs presentation of truth.
If you want to show us how its "really done" though i encourage you to do so: Put your money where your mouth is and the whole of EVE will see how well you do when set against your own "standards".
You've got two days to do a histoire on the Big Bang Burger Bar, submit it to [email protected] and we will then publish it(providing its readable). We will then run a public disection of it over these forums applying your own "rules of law".
Until then - fly safe.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.02.24 16:16:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 24/02/2004 16:19:38
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 24/02/2004 16:18:49
Quote:
The artical was well written and an enjoyable read.
Glad you enjoyed it - thats the point of it all.
Quote:
However i still believe CEOs of corp's concerned in artical's should be eve-mailed before hand.
Why? If you have issue with something GunnyP stated take it up with HIM. FTLOG he mentioned one age old no-importance incident that 99.9% of peole couldnt give a flying fruitbat about.
Quote:
As we could have easily showed gunny wasnt taken by 5 Blackbirds.
No you couldn't. FACT. There is no way at all you can ever prove it didn't happen as he said. FACT.
I don't care if it did or didn't - point is neither he nor you can prove a thing, you can argue about it lots though to no purpose at all. - Which is what you're doing publically here, 99.99% of people dont give a ****, and its derailing this thread.
Quote:
But for Kakalot losing his ship we have no evidence because it just didnt happen.
Likewise you cannot prove Kakalot didnt lose his ship - you simply can NOT prove that. (Again I dont care and I also know that GunnyP cant prove he did).
FTLOG people get used to EVE - there are NO MEANS to prove virtually anything happened (though wait for the CSM this week).
Quote:
Ps I did say "try" and contact ceos. All i ment is that an eve-mail should be sent before publication of articals.
Bascically - no. Its an unrealistic restriction on EG. We contact people where their opinion is required centrally to the article in question. In this case its an irrelevance, based on a throw-away quote that EG isnt even presenting as anything other than what GUnnyP said. Its not important at all to the article in question - and as shown above - any reply or contradiction is nothing more than gossip in anycase (just as GunnyP's original statement is).
I really do wish people would wake up a little bit and realise the restrictions within EVE and the impossibility of actually "proving" anything.
Without access to EVE server logs you can prove NOTHING. We are aware of this and thus contact "opposing parties" wherever their input is needed to balance an article. This is an article about the changes to TTI - its not an article about some obscure bloody ship-kill that GunnyP happened to mention - frankly nobody gives a toss if there were no ships or 1000 ships there.
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syndic4te
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Posted - 2004.02.24 16:52:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/02/2004 04:51:44
It has certainly been an interesting year for Taggart. Very much a time of conflicts and great historical significance. Looking back on it all now still gives me a thrill of excitement to think of the crucial council meetings and bold rebellion thereafter. If anything though, the triumph of GunnyP and the new Taggart was to realise that sometimes surrender and ceasefire are not dirty words, and truly there is a need to draw a line under a conflict that you are losing. Many corporations and alliances could learn that lesson, and by accepting terms before it is too late, they gain space to change their path and destiny thereafter.
New Taggart has reaped the rewards for the vision shown by the post Ragnar leadership, and has (to the best of my knowledge) kept the pledges made to secure peace.
The great irony I guess is that Taggart is still strong and recovering even now while the alliance I helped to build to destroy Ragnar's tyranical dream is itself gone to history and faded from the north.
That Taggart should outlast the NVA is pretty much a testiment to GunnyP and his clever statesmanship, and one has to recognise deft decision-making even in a onetime foe.
Still, milady Femme Fatal, we will always have "the magic hat!" its entered the mythology of the eve universe and thats recognition enough for the early conflicts and bold guerilla resistence to the onetime nefarious megacorp. Truly you were an inspiration to us all in those days ...
For my part though I will always remember how six war-torn little corporations launched a movement to defeat a corrupt dictator, a wealthy megacorp and a host of pirate hirelings ... and that the revolution should ultimately fail is no shame nor reason to forget the memory of comrade's past and courage spent in noble cause.
Strange how the tides of war and peace do turn ms Tegral, and now you are remembered as a furious foe of Taggart when how differently matters stood last summer.
All things change.
And memory is flattering.
Love and peace
beh, u write to damn much!!@
---
--- |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.02.24 17:02:00 -
[23]
We all talk too much... that's the joy and pain of it all.
In my case I type faster then some people talk. During the ceremony for the late "Amarr" emperor I was in local when the GM's showed up. I, through my fast typing, simulcasted the commentary over to the IRC.
Guess it was a Shar-casted event... 
But, and don't take this the wrong way, Eve itself does not present enough creative outlet, in game. So many of us, who have this strong creative desire, use this venue, and others, to satisfy it as much as we can.
Not bad for a measely $12.95(US) a month really. And in our efforts we give you something to read, enjoy, and troll if you so like. 
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Lomex
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Posted - 2004.02.24 17:07:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lomex on 24/02/2004 17:08:35
hello Femme 
Marquedios, don't confuse in-game related activities with out of game activities. Nor confuse passionate disapproval as hatred.
I remember back in the early beta days when Tank CEO was hooning around Lonetrek in a Moa (It was a big ship back then). He was pirating and had caught out a few TTI indies and frigates, maybe even some small cruisers.
He came into TTI public irc channel to, at a guess, gloat  .
Well I was talking to him quite amicably, other TTI members were all for kicking him out and telling him to get lost etc...
Its a game. I may not agree with him. I may be at war with him. It doesn't mean we can't be friends.
The same goes for Anla. I'll trust neither of these people with my money or my pod (gerroff Tank), but I see no reason to not be civil or even friendly with them.
Shar and I are alike in many of our views, however I believe him to be extreme at times, certainly its my belief he could have focused his vocal outrages more at the source. Frustrating when the source doesn't want to listen or is absent. Many of us simply decided not to even try, or at least not too hard, and so were left with only one honourable recourse. We left.
GunnyP is a much better listener, and Ragnar would certainly never have entertained a CEO vote against him.
Shia Dai - Hearsay and quotes (be they accurate or not) are very much the domain of journalism and you are kidding yourself if you think they aren't. Listen intently to the news, especially political, and you will hear many quoted sources and qualifiers such as "believed to be".
*edit* shar... its $14.99 now *edit*
___________________________________________
Join in the NEW Sci-Fi Quiz |
Kakalot
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Posted - 2004.02.24 17:14:00 -
[25]
To Morkt:
I told my corpmates in corp chat that i dont actully care and i actually didn't want to make a post about it. It's not like it matters to me, and yes it's a nice story there.
Keep up the good work.
________________________________________________________
http://users.pandora.be/zebras/Kakalot.jpg |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.02.24 17:19:00 -
[26]
Quote:
To Morkt:
I told my corpmates in corp chat that i dont actully care and i actually didn't want to make a post about it. It's not like it matters to me, and yes it's a nice story there.
Keep up the good work.
I'll say thank you. And apologize if there is any misconceptions created by the article. Thank you for not caring and thank you for liking the story.
BTW Pak wouldn't be interested in contacting me about doing some interviews? (Shameless aren't I, but the rent must be met!)
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.02.24 17:36:00 -
[27]
Quote:
beh, u write to damn much!!@
On the contrary mÆdear, I donÆt write [b]enough[/b] ;) I'm always being moaned at by Jericho Directors to explain our ideology in narrative allusion! Forum comment is a displacement activity for real work clearly...
That said, I agree with Morkt entirely, in-game news is often going to inaccurate from certain perspectives ... and guess what! You have the perfect recourse ... write and submit an opinion piece of your own.
Thats the road to interesting dialogue and creative vision.
Hindering an in-game service with real world "standards" of journalistic professionalism is mad ... whats next? Forcing alliance pilots to take a flight license test or holding trade channel scammers to the board of commercial ethics!
;)
Love and peace
JF Public Forum |
Blade Durrant
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Posted - 2004.02.24 21:00:00 -
[28]
Journalists have standards!?!. Quite frankly until modern telecommunication breakthroughs, the news was anything but accurate (see the Spanish-American war). Journalists like all people have opinions, and unfortunately, opinions often come out in an article via word choice. I applaud all the efforts on the part of people in the EVE universe that are attempting to give us a journalistic medium, and prehaps we could convince CCP to add a section to the EVE newsletter for ingame happenings, oped pieces, editorials, battle reports, and articals like this to add to the unique flavor EVE has (after all we dont spend all our time plotting to backstab everyone else in the universe, we need something to keep us busy during downtimes).
That said, keep up the fine work to all EVE journalist. These articles add a unique dimension to this game, and help out RP efforts too.
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Wren
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Posted - 2004.02.24 21:45:00 -
[29]
Heh, errr, hmmmm, yeah....eeeps!
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Olympus Nemus
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Posted - 2004.02.25 03:19:00 -
[30]
Moved from EVE General Discussions
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