| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
General Apocalypse
Amarr
Ship Research
   |
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:27:00 -
[91]
Ah no , the only time when IMO you're allowed to use out of game stuff is when it comes to account hacking , TS super admin hacking and forum attack (not forum infiltration) .
 Originally by: CCP Morpheus
nerf ccp plz
Originally by: CCP Oveur
To the gankmobile!
|
Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Estate
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:28:00 -
[92]
EVE is the MMO most accepting and even encouraging of metagaming than any other out there. I think that CCP hasn't "drawn the line" some people are concerned about because they don't want to. As of right now, anything goes as long as it isn't illegal. Some things may be looked down upon by CCP or the EVE community, but anything that isn't illegal or specifically listed as an exploitation or against the TOS is fair game. The gain for the community is more freedom in our sandbox. The penalty is paid in the loss of reputation you might take by using such methods, depending on the specifics of the situation.
I don't see CCP making a claim here, or anywhere, drawing that line because that is the slippery slope they want to stay away from. As long as large swaths of the playerbase aren't decimated due to a metagame action, they aren't likely to care.
And like in real life, you may personally draw your line before or after what CCP dictates, but that only governs your own actions and attitudes, not the rules of this universe as they are at this moment in time.
|
Fenren
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:28:00 -
[93]
Originally by: General Apocalypse
Ah no , the only time when IMO you're allowed to use out of game stuff is when it comes to account hacking , TS super admin hacking and forum attack (not forum infiltration) .
but that is a criminal act. then you call the police.
|
Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Estate
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:32:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Fenren
Originally by: General Apocalypse
Ah no , the only time when IMO you're allowed to use out of game stuff is when it comes to account hacking , TS super admin hacking and forum attack (not forum infiltration) .
but that is a criminal act. then you call the police.
I'm assuming this was a typo and he was listing the only unfair out of game methods, basically, the illegal ones.
|
Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:32:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 18/10/2007 18:33:49
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: Setana Manoro
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 18/10/2007 18:21:48
Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: Fenren
there is still a lot of ways to insure that your alts will never be traced to you.
it can be done in real life and then you only have one face and can only be at one place at a time.
If you do something bad, be a man and take the consequenses of your acts, dont hide behind your alt!
or i you do, hide well.
What he said. It's like a RL criminal complaining the police shouldn't use DNA evidence because it's not sporting!
You make the choice to be a scammer, you deserve to be outed by whatever means necessary.
I'm sorry, where did CCP exactlty in the TOS or EULA that scammers, pirates, ore thieves, corp thieves will be hunted down through 3rd party services and their alt's names splattered on the eve-o forum, thus destroying their enjoyment of the game.
This is not RL, this is a game, that kind of analogy is pretty badly though. Curzon Dax is not the eve-o police and no-one but the ISD for forums and the GM's for the game world should be. Not even CCP employees.
Scammer ruins fun for 100 people, 1 person ruins the fun for the scammer. Sounds unfair to me too, just not the way you are saying.
Scamming is a way of life in EVE and EVE is advertised in such a way. Deal with it or don't play.
Logging IP's through a 3rd party site and using that information to prove out a scammer, is a bit too excessive.
This thread is not about outing a scammer - bad one at that too. This is a thread about a practice that might become standard, and would ruin the enjoyment of the game for more than this scammer particularly.
A line needs to be drawn in this case.
Failgeddon wrecks CCP for XXX annoyed customers ! |
SengH
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:40:00 -
[96]
Edited by: SengH on 18/10/2007 18:45:55
You guys are a bunch of tinfoil hatters... you think thats just a signature your downloading?
you could very easily track someones IP by a sig on eve-o, just host it on your own server and log whoever downloads it. Then just reference post times to IP's and generate a database via there. I'm pretty damn sure all the alliances with any form of counter-intelligence network do this. The simple solution would be to disable signatures on eve-o, but that option in the settings is broken.
Edit: the folder your sig is stored in is called
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c246/verizana/setanasig.jpg
I know a character called Verizana(ex Suprm/BOB)... he an alt of yours perhaps?
If he is it would be pretty dammn ironic considering BOB is rumored to use iptracker signatures :P
|
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:45:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Setana Manoro
I'm sorry, where did CCP exactlty in the TOS or EULA that scammers, pirates, ore thieves, corp thieves will be hunted down through 3rd party services and their alt's names splattered on the eve-o forum, thus destroying their enjoyment of the game.
This is not RL, this is a game, that kind of analogy is pretty badly though. Curzon Dax is not the eve-o police and no-one but the ISD for forums and the GM's for the game world should be. Not even CCP employees.
Scamming in game is something I have no problem with. (Well, only a small problem). There are ways and mechanisms to deal with scams, and fair enough, it's "all in the game".
Scamming on these forums is IMO using an out of game resource that there is no way of knowing if it's a scam or not.
Therefore using any other out of game means to identify that scammer is certainly no worse than the scammer themselves.
It's CCP's fault ultimately for actively encouraging scamming all over the place. The line should be drawn, and that line ends when you log out of the Eve Online client.
Watch your wallets at the fanfest, there could be an OOG scammer at work!
|
Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:49:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Matalino on 18/10/2007 18:53:14
Originally by: Setana Manoro
This is a thread about a practice that might become standard, and would ruin the enjoyment of the game for more than this scammer particularly.
If this practice became standard then it would ruin the credibility of those who engage in it.
Just look at the response in this thread. Even those like myself who think that such a practice is acceptable, will not visit Curzon's IGB website, because he has shown that he would use the data like that.
Curzon has paid a price with a portion of his reputation to make that accusation against General Starscreem. (I say against General Starscream, because in my opinion, his reputation has be ruined by the actions of Miss Fiona, not the other way around as most seem to assume.)
Contrast that with Chribba, who has come in here to say that he thinks that such a use of IGB logs is a matter of moral choice, and that his choice is to NOT use his logs like that.
By making the choices that they have, each site administrator has changed the amount of data that they can collect.
If Curzon continued to use his website to hunt down alts, fewer and fewer alts would use his site. Thus rendering his policy moot.
As long as Chribba sticks to his policy, then there is no reason to fear using his sites. If he were to suddenly change that policy without warning, even his mighty reputation would be tainted.
People should simply educate themselves as to who maintains the sites they trust, and extend the level of trust to those sites, based on the level of trust that they have for the administrators.
There is little reason to think that this practice will become any more standard than it already is. At most, those who were ingorant of this practice can and should be educated of its existance, then left to respond as they see fit.
This practice is easily regulated by players voting with their feet. Don't visit sites that have policies that you don't like.
**************************
Datacore Harvesting IPO |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:52:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Would YOU like someone telling people your alts because they found out your IP in some way you didn't know about?
All anyone has to do is ask me my alts. I've got zero trouble with answering. Just because many players in Eve use their alts to do dirt doesn't mean it is a privileged activity that should be respected as being sacrosanct. I realize many of you two-faced jerks, who can't function if you didn't have an alt to clean yourselves of responsibility, might wish it was treated as such but tough crap. Regardless of the so called eula nature of the use of ip address, Curzon only said they were the same. Curzon never released the actual details. Curzon acted within the parameters of his own morals and never violated any of our basic minimum ethics. (The eula.) So, this is much ado about nothing.
It's A GIRL!!!!! |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:55:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 18/10/2007 18:55:32
Originally by: Shar Tegral
[justify] Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Would YOU like someone telling people your alts because they found out your IP in some way you didn't know about?
All anyone has to do is ask me my alts. I've got zero trouble with answering. Just because many players in Eve use their alts to do dirt doesn't mean it is a privileged activity that should be respected as being sacrosanct. I realize many of you two-faced jerks, who can't function if you didn't have an alt to clean yourselves of responsibility, might wish it was treated as such but tough crap.
True, and like I, some don't have a problem with coming clean with alts. HEck, if i ever made another account(not saying i don't have one  ) i'd probably add another member in the Jones family.
I'm just saying, that IF you wanted to kkeep your alt as a separate character, away from your main thingadoo, you should have that right protected.
Disclaimer: All people in EVE named Jones ARE NOT my alts 
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:55:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: Setana Manoro
I'm sorry, where did CCP exactlty in the TOS or EULA that scammers, pirates, ore thieves, corp thieves will be hunted down through 3rd party services and their alt's names splattered on the eve-o forum, thus destroying their enjoyment of the game.
This is not RL, this is a game, that kind of analogy is pretty badly though. Curzon Dax is not the eve-o police and no-one but the ISD for forums and the GM's for the game world should be. Not even CCP employees.
Scamming in game is something I have no problem with. (Well, only a small problem). There are ways and mechanisms to deal with scams, and fair enough, it's "all in the game".
Scamming on these forums is IMO using an out of game resource that there is no way of knowing if it's a scam or not.
Therefore using any other out of game means to identify that scammer is certainly no worse than the scammer themselves.
It's CCP's fault ultimately for actively encouraging scamming all over the place. The line should be drawn, and that line ends when you log out of the Eve Online client.
Watch your wallets at the fanfest, there could be an OOG scammer at work!
Up to about 1 yr ago, scamming on this forum is prohibited. Scamming with IPO's is now allowed, scamming with characters and GTC's is still prohibited as is in the game. CCP views both the game world and the website as one entity, as you can see by the language used in the TOS - link in the OP.
Failgeddon wrecks CCP for XXX annoyed customers ! |
Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:57:00 -
[102]
Originally by: SengH
Edited by: SengH on 18/10/2007 18:45:55
You guys are a bunch of tinfoil hatters... you think thats just a signature your downloading?
you could very easily track someones IP by a sig on eve-o, just host it on your own server and log whoever downloads it. Then just reference post times to IP's and generate a database via there. I'm pretty damn sure all the alliances with any form of counter-intelligence network do this. The simple solution would be to disable signatures on eve-o, but that option in the settings is broken.
Edit: the folder your sig is stored in is called
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c246/verizana/setanasig.jpg
I know a character called Verizana(ex Suprm/BOB)... he an alt of yours perhaps?
If he is it would be pretty dammn ironic considering BOB is rumored to use iptracker signatures :P
Oh c'mon, I can do that by right clicking on my browser on the pic and pressing properties. Counter-intelligence my butt. :)
Verizana made this sig for me, for 30m isk, it's hosted on his/her imageshack account.
Failgeddon wrecks CCP for XXX annoyed customers ! |
SitAtJita
The Scope
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 18:57:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Missed the point again.
Person A is a scammer, and person B is not.
This is what i'm getting at with different characters, played WITHOUT connection to eachother. EXCEPT, via some out of game way.
Be it binoculars outside the window.
If those two characters are from the same person, should NOT be an issue of discredit.
Then again, this not not what Miss Fiona/General Starscream did. He mixed alts by making them post in support of each other. Like using an alt to support her, and turn out that this alt has been supporting a general starscream's alt on his scammish auction.
If it was a roleplaying person, who was roleplaying two different chars, and purposefully kept those characters apart, then probably most people would understand it, and respect that separation.
But General starscream was just mixing his alts all the time, so anything his alts do is an reason of discredit not only for him but also for all his alts, since they are all used and mixed for the same purposes!
|
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:00:00 -
[104]
Originally by: SitAtJita
Then again, this not not what Miss Fiona/General Starscream did.
Exactly, and as i stated many a times, i'm not discussing this particular event, but the issue concerning it/around it.
As such, you're quite agreeing(i think), that if a person is honestly playing two characters, they should be allowed so in their own privacy.
Which brings us to the problem, how would one know if they are/aren't playing two separate characters, except if they say so?(which is usually dismissed as "yeah right")
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:02:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Setana Manoro
Up to about 1 yr ago, scamming on this forum is prohibited. Scamming with IPO's is now allowed, scamming with characters and GTC's is still prohibited as is in the game. CCP views both the game world and the website as one entity, as you can see by the language used in the TOS - link in the OP.
OK, I guess I'm still running on "old rules".
I'll have to agree to disagree in this case. The game for me starts when I hit "connect", but it's CCP's bat and CCP's ball so who am I to argue.
The margins are blurred here as they don't fit totally into the "3rd party" mould because they connected to a website from within the client.
For what it's worth, I've never trusted a website in the IGB primarily due to the potential for data gathering.
|
civdariri
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:07:00 -
[106]
A persons I.P: IS personal information. Your address as home is personal information you may not own your address or your I.P. but it is personal information.
|
MrTripps
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:09:00 -
[107]
Just to prove I'm not someone's alt I am freely providing my IP address: 192.168.168.151.
Certainty of death...small chance of success...what are we waiting for? - Gimli |
Ares Splinter
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:10:00 -
[108]
Originally by: civdariri
A persons I.P: IS personal information. Your address as home is personal information you may not own your address or your I.P. but it is personal information.
Actually no, its public information
|
civdariri
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:14:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Ares Splinter
Originally by: civdariri
A persons I.P: IS personal information. Your address as home is personal information you may not own your address or your I.P. but it is personal information.
Actually no, its public information
You are utterly incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personally_identifiable_information
|
MrTripps
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:14:00 -
[110]
Originally by: civdariri
A persons I.P: IS personal information.
Oh, yes. PING is obviously a tool of the devil.
Certainty of death...small chance of success...what are we waiting for? - Gimli |
civdariri
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:17:00 -
[111]
You are missing the point. You are not permitted to post personal information publically. You may have that information yourself and be subjected to laws governing the use of such information but you may not post it publicly.
|
SengH
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:18:00 -
[112]
Edited by: SengH on 18/10/2007 19:20:10
Originally by: civdariri
A persons I.P: IS personal information. Your address as home is personal information you may not own your address or your I.P. but it is personal information.
no it isnt its stored in a public database ARIN for US IPs APNIC for asian et al.
Setana Manoro by counterintelligence I meant the person running the photobucket server if they wanted to could easily sync up the post times with IP's and find out whose alt is whose, thats why your run it off your own server and log access times.
And for those nubtards out there, MAC addresses are not unique. Your cable modem mac address is pretty much unique if you dont know how to mask/spoof it using a vpn/proxy/tor but your computer mac address is not. It can be changed to whatever you want by adding a single registry key to whatever you want just google for it.
The only people who do OWN IP's are the large entities that bought up entire subnets back when they went up for auction. I highly doubt you are one of them.
|
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:20:00 -
[113]
Originally by: MrTripps
Just to prove I'm not someone's alt I am freely providing my IP address: 192.168.168.151.
192.168.*.* is a private range. That's your address on your side of the router, not anything that would be any use in finding you on the Internet.
|
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
BROTHER'S WORD
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:21:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: Matalino
The warning is universal for every website in existance. If you don't want them to use information, then don't give it to them.
They cannot limit how you use the information you receive from them, and you cannot limit how they use the information that you give to them.
Don't know why you keep on it, when i said you were right on the case already.
That's not me, you know.
But I will add this. I realized it had to be an in game browser website because there has to be a way to connect IP address with character names. It's not enough for someone to get your IP, they need to somehow get you to tell them your character names as well. So either Fiona registered on a forum with both accounts (which would be a stupid thing to do) or it was an IGB thing, which is a bit less stupid but still his fault.
Other than that, the only way someone could figure out your alts is by looking over your shoulder while you play (which is not CCPs problem) or by hacking your computer (or a forum you use) which falls under harassment and is already a bannable offense (Just ask Kugut... the nameless one). Eve masks your IP (afaik) and if someone found a way around that CCP would jump on their ass like a rabid dog.
What I'm really saying is that there's nothing new here. Anything truly underhanded is already bannable because it would be hacking.
I also would like to add that I often play in a cyber cafe and I'm not the only person there who plays eve. Thus connecting our IPs would suggest that we're alts, but we sure as hell aren't. Anyone who accuses me of being that douchebag shmosalish is gonna **** me off.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
civdariri
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:24:00 -
[115]
I am fully entitled to look up anyones name and address by either the internet or other media and in most cases i am at liberty to keep this information for myself. I may not under any circumstances make this information known publicaly via the internet or any other means.
|
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:26:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Frug
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: Matalino
The warning is universal for every website in existance. If you don't want them to use information, then don't give it to them.
They cannot limit how you use the information you receive from them, and you cannot limit how they use the information that you give to them.
Don't know why you keep on it, when i said you were right on the case already.
That's not me, you know.
Ah yes, sorry about that 
In this case, the IP was provided to Curzon willingly, agreed.
Using it in such manner, debatably(as can be seen) wrong/ok.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
3535325385hdgsbndgsdjg
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:27:00 -
[117]
Edited by: 3535325385hdgsbndgsdjg on 18/10/2007 19:28:14
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Would YOU like someone telling people your alts because they found out your IP in some way you didn't know about?
All anyone has to do is ask me my alts. I've got zero trouble with answering. Just because many players in Eve use their alts to do dirt doesn't mean it is a privileged activity that should be respected as being sacrosanct. I realize many of you two-faced jerks, who can't function if you didn't have an alt to clean yourselves of responsibility, might wish it was treated as such but tough crap. Regardless of the so called eula nature of the use of ip address, Curzon only said they were the same. Curzon never released the actual details. Curzon acted within the parameters of his own morals and never violated any of our basic minimum ethics. (The eula.) So, this is much ado about nothing.
My alts are not to be mixed with each other. Call me schizophrenic but my alts are separate people and if one day one of them scams the others are not at fault or should ever be considered tainted because of that outcasts acts. If one did scam then she definitely would show her intentions from the first moment of life and would not fool people by friendship and breech of trust.
|
Aranbaal
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:29:00 -
[118]
2 accoutns having the same iP as each other does not mean they are alts of each other.
Am sure a very large portion of users have dynamic ip's which means the ip you use one day could easily be given to someone else that plays the next. Especially where isp's like AOL are concerned. Having run forums and webistes before i have seen users have the same ip on AOL within hours of the other person last using it.
It could also be equally posible that the person who had one account is a friend of the other and had logged on at his house. I know many people who regularly have lan parties where they all gather ad play eve on the same line.
That said loggin people's ip's for no reason is just plain wrong. What was the intended use of knowing peoples ip's? And why would someone be activily checked accounts ip's aainst records they have. The only reason i can see for someone doin such a think would be for hacking.
|
SengH
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:30:00 -
[119]
Edited by: SengH on 18/10/2007 19:31:14
Originally by: Frug
stuff
easy.. the moment you clicked post, it was timestamped 2007.10.18 19:21:00. Now for example sheriff jones signature (just using you as an example) on this page was running on his own server. Your web browser downloads his signature and he logs your IP. He now knows that IP is associated with that character using a script that parses eve-o and starts building a database of commonly used IP's by characters. Over a long period of time, you can build a list of commonly associated IPs with characters and compare common IPs.
Another thing now is the API key issue, the more prolific corps will request API keys to confirm alts. There would be no reason to hide your API key unless you did really have something to hide.
Originally by: Aranbaal
other stuff
Just an fyi.. if your friend does something to get permabanned by CCP, you'll be permabanned too.
|
ViolenTUK
Gallente
Vindicated Exiles
|
Posted - 2007.10.18 19:30:00 -
[120]
I could post my own I.P. if i wanted to but yes i agree you cant post anyones I.P. without their consent as it is personal information. I understand that forum administrators may use forum members I.P.s for their forums security but they arent able to make this information made public.
www.eve-players.com |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |