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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 11:34:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Akita T
CALDARI : Raven - Raven Navy Issue - Golem
So, this makes the Golem the only Marauder that is not only on par with T1/faction, but actually worse as the faction version, damage-wise.
This is more because the CNR is the only faction ship which does more dps than its normal version.
If we have the odd man out here it is the CNR, not the golem.
Quote: And let's not even begin to mention the "NPC defenders" issue, which get MULTIPLIED by the fact it launches half as many missiles as a T1 Raven, effectively *doubling* the NPC defender effectiveness. VERY bad.
On this however I definately agree. The current defender use in mission will make the cruise-golem rather pointless and a torp golem has just a too low range to be an effective mission ship.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 12:11:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad
Originally by: d026
Even the fact that the CNR is out of line makes the Golem pointles because it is still preferable to get CNR instead of a Golem.
You heard the man. Nerf the CNR!
That.
As said, the ibalanced ship here is the CNR.
Saying an advanced ship needs a buff to be inline with an earlier ship which is a bit imbalanced with all other ships in the same niche is a bit silly.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 13:52:00 -
[3]
About the defender issue - I am beginning to believe that it in fact is no issue.
Someone from SHC claimed that the defender launch chance is based per missile. I thought it was timebased. So I made a little field test on sisi. If the defender launch chance is per missile then there should be a difference in the defenders/time when shooting with 1 and when shooting with 7 launchers on the drake. I should get only 14% of the defenders/time when I fire 1 launcher only than when I fire 7 launchers to be precise.
So I tried exactly that. Fired with 7 launchers on a BS and got around 10-12 defenders per minute. Fired with 1 launcher on the same BS and got around 1-2 defenders per minute.
The correlates pretty well with the theoretical results. I did not test it for very long, so the statistical sample isn't that great (so I welcome anyone who cares to repeat this test), but from what I saw the "defender launch is a fixed chance per missile" statement seems to be correct.
So the defender issue is not there. A raven fires twice the amount of missiles over time as the golem and looses only half its dps per defender, but it will also recieve twice the amount of defenders over time. So both ships will loose exactly the same dps percentage to defenders.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 14:13:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Aramendel on 24/10/2007 14:14:45
Originally by: DARTHxFREE
P.S whats the verdict on the Amarr Black Ops, the presumed PvP ship before the stats were released?
It is essentially a geddon with 85% of its dps with a somewhat worse tank.
Not actually bad really, considering that it is meant ot be used with force recons. Against a jammed target its tank disadvantage does not mean much and dps is *exactly* what a regular recon gang is lacking.
Personally I find the widow (caldari) is a bit better though. It has almost the same dps as the raven while having the same jamming power as the *rook* (it has 20% ECM strength/lvl on sisi, not 10%). That is a pretty potent combination.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 14:58:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Aramendel on 24/10/2007 15:01:46
Originally by: Xaldor Your test results are probably lobsided because your first test is firing fewer missiles than the ship has defenders so they are not all launching, I am pretty sure they do not fire all their defenders if there is just one missile incoming. You will probably find the ship's defender capacity was tested out with your second test. To confirm it add a second or even a third ship and fire a ridiculous number of missiles. If it is a chance per missile the number of missiles shot down would continue to climb based on the number of missiles fired.
If the had a number of launchers with defenders then If I would only launch 1 missle at them it would be intercepted by defenders in most cases. Or at least it should get intercepted far more regulary than when I was fireing all 7 missiles.
But this simply wasn't the case.
The reason your friends missiles were hit and barely one of yours is because your firends missiles were before yours. A defender launch chance seems to get triggered when a missile is fired at the ship, but the defender itself always goes vs the *nearest* missile. So your friends missiles got hit by the defenders he triggered and by the defenders you triggered.
Also, NPC ships do not operate like player ships, they are simpler. They have no cap to worry about and their defensive actions - EW, reps/boosters and..defenders are chancebased. The more advanced databases show these stats.
If you disbelieve it test it yourself. Now. Something which you believe to have seen months ago not under controlled testing conditions is not very conclusive.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 15:37:00 -
[6]
Yes, salvage tackle rigs *really* help. After 7 cargo extenders you do not really need more cargo anyway. In fact you would want to replace a few with istabs and nanos.
note-to-self: I cannot believe I am actually discussing this. But sadly that is indeed the best paladin setup I have seen so far.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 15:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Zolian The CNR doesn't get an extra slot over the Raven, while the fleet pest, vindi, navy mega etc. all do.
Nothing is imblanced here.
Yes, because an extra med slot is just as good more dps for NPCing, right?
No, not really. A normal raven, mega, pest or apoc can tank lvl4 missions just fine without that additional slot. It does not really help them much.
If you disagree then you should have no problem with the CNR loosing a launcher and gaining a med slot instead, right?
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 20:23:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zolian The CNR isn't imbalanced. It just so happens to get more performance in PvE from its extra launcher while the others get either more utility or more tank mostly for PvP. Nothing wrong here, PvE performance should have low priority in balancing, or else the Mega would need a large boost.
Exept, in case you missed it (I mean, it is only in the threat title and such): we are talking about PvE performance here.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 23:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Aramendel on 24/10/2007 23:09:11
Originally by: Sorja 7 x 1-2 = 7-14, how is that different than 10-12?
According to your test defenders are time based tbh
You are making no sense.
Why should they be time based? If they would be time based then I would get the same number of defenders with 1 missle launcher active and with 7 missile launchers active.
Well, not exactly, I would have gotten around 8 defenders per minute and not 10-12 since I am only launching 8 missiles from a single launcher.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.25 09:06:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Actually the other empire faction ships (minus the Fleet Pest) also get a hidden damage bonus by the additional lowslot they get. They are armortankers, and so the extra low usually means an extra damage mod that can be fitted. CNR is a shieldtanker with 5 lows, so adding another really would not do much for damage (3 damage mods are standard fit), hence the only way to boost damage is adding a launcher. The same thing should have been done for the Fleet Tempest too, remove a low and add a turret and it is a fine ship. Please don't try seeing imbalances where there are none.
That assumes that you cannot fit 3 damagemods on lvl4 mega and apoc setups which I kinda doubt.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.25 10:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Akita T LAR+plate or 2xLAR, 3 resist mods = 5 slots. So yeah, you usually fit just 2 damage mods, but 3 on the faction.
Uh.. why on earth would you fit a plate on a PvE setup? That is high stupidity. And you can tank most missions with a single LAR.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.25 10:54:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Aramendel on 25/10/2007 10:54:18
Originally by: Akita T If you can tank most missions with a single LAR, you can also tank most missions with a Large Shield Booster... yet everybody and their dog uses XL boosters on the Raven/CNR.
A LSB is less effective than a LAR, both in capefficiency and in boost amount.
Quote: As for the plate, sometimes when a single LAR isn't enough, and you don't have the cap to use a second LAR, it's usually better to fit a plate instead of a MAR so that you survive long enough to lower the incoming DPS... and it also acts as a slightly better buffer against the LAR's huge cycle time.
Another harderner >>>> a plate. With a DCU structure offers plenty of buffer space. If that is not enough a plate won#t help you much either.
Quote: It's not that you have to, it's what (other) people actually use.
I have also seen people using mealstroms with tachyons. So? People are stupid and use stupid setups.
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.25 17:04:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Aramendel on 25/10/2007 17:04:58
Originally by: Akita T
Quote: A LSB is less effective than a LAR, both in capefficiency and in boost amount.
things which were totally news to me...not
LSB+SBA = 2 modules LAR = 1 module
A LSB is simply not compareable to a LAR 1v1.
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