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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.26 05:02:00 -
[1]
There was an initial outcry when the nos nerf hit the server. People cried about the Pilgrim, others said "Wait and see, you just need to find the right fitting". So I decided to withhold judgment until I had a chance to figure the new Pilgrim out.
I've tried to make the Pilgrim work, but it just ain't happening. The Pilgrim was already a niche ship, now it is so niche it is useless.
The problem with the Pilgrim right now is that it cannot run ewar and tank at the same time, and it needs to tank because unlike the other recons it must fight in web-range, a fact that is often pointed out because it is so true.
I've also used 2 neuts and a nos. You can keep neuts running off cap charges decently, and do a great job of killing a targets cap. If you have to run any other mods aside from nos and tackle however your cap bottoms out in about 2 cycles. You can fit lots of cap mods, but suddenly again you have no tank. Nanoing the ship is out of the question as you'll always be in overheated web range.
So now we have a Pilgrim that can't tank, but must fight in range of every ship and it's mother. Down one mid, you now have room for only a single tracking disruptor, as propulsion mod/cap booster/scram/web is almost mandatory. This weakens its tank even more as it will take about twice as much damage from a turretship as before.
Now even 1v1 a Pilgrim already had to pick its targets wisely. Drones and missiles could chew through a Pilgrim fairly easily even pre-nerf, provided you weren't being shot by torps, and that your opponent had decent skills and fitted good hardware. You were restricted to ships that had 75m3 dronebay or below and didn't have 4 or more launchers. Oh, they also had to be slow enough to now be able to MWD out of webrange before you could target them after decloaking.
Right now a Pilgrim can take a T1 cruiser sometimes, and that's about it. Anything smaller than that will just run away from your fat ass, and anything bigger will outgank and outtank you even with TDed weapons and a 0 cap tank.
And now to add insult to hullshot tracking disruptors are also being made useless on the Pilgrim. If you thought Pilgrim prices were low now...woah!
If the Pilgrim is to be limited to neuts now its cargo needs to be at least doubled. In addition it needs its cap recharge rate to the point that it can permarun 2 neuts, tackle gear and 2 TDs. It also needs another mid, take it from a high for all I care, the nos is worthless anyhow, I'd do 3 neuts now if I could actually run them all with a medium cap booster. Further CCP should seriously consider either giving it a flat role bonus to neut cap use (say 50%) or work in a 10%/lvl bonus somewhere. Further the Pilgrims bonus to tracking disruptors needs to be adjusted for the nerf that TDs are receiving.
Until this happens the Pilgrim is useless at killing anything fit for PvP, solo or in gang and can only kill the stupidest of those not fit for PvP.
I've been planning on starting a topic like this, but hadn't had the time to type one up. Probly best that Feng did it first, mine would have been a wall of text for sure. I also vow to keep this topic bumped until something is done.
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.26 09:01:00 -
[2]
Only thing a range bonus would really do is make the thing nanoable, which IMO should be discouraged. I want the Pilgrim to similar to how it used to, having to use neuts is fine even if they only drain as much cap as nos used to and cost you some cap to run. I just don't want to lose an effective mid over it and be forced to use an injector that doesn't have any cargobay to keep its reloads in.
At the least we need more cargo and an extra mid.
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.26 15:35:00 -
[3]
I cannot believe that there are so few people that fly the Pilgrim, surely we can get some more input from hardcore Pilly pilots. If only DE was still with us, he'd have some good points.
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:05:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Phaedruss
Originally by: Corwain
I cannot believe that there are so few people that fly the Pilgrim, surely we can get some more input from hardcore Pilly pilots. If only DE was still with us, he'd have some good points.
The Pilgrim is still a good solo / small gang ship after the NOS nerf, but it now requires some good cap management and reconfiguration of low slots/rigs. You think Pilgrim pilots have it bad now? Wait for the sensor damp nerf...
I'm guessing you're suggesting I fit Cap booster, scram, web ECM burst+2 damps on the Pilgrim and a 1600mm plate+hardeners and maybe a small rep
It works until you get some ****ed off heavy drones auto aggroed to you or you miss a jam (which happens much more often than you'd think)
You're rolling the dice with that deal, not to mention with the increased cap needs you're gonna be chewing through even more cap with that ECM burst, meaning your tiny cargo most likely won't last even 1 fight with cap booster charges. It's just not an option.
As for the Pilgrim being a good gang ship--I seriously want what you're smoking. Your average gang could make the Pilgrim a tertiary target and you'd die before the primary (not to metion stop EWarring to run your tank).
A Pilgrim in gangs has Scorpion syndrome nowadays.
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.27 19:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Phaedruss
Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Phaedruss
The Pilgrim is still a good solo / small gang ship after the NOS nerf, but it now requires some good cap management and reconfiguration of low slots/rigs. You think Pilgrim pilots have it bad now? Wait for the sensor damp nerf...
I'm guessing you're suggesting I fit Cap booster, scram, web ECM burst+2 damps on the Pilgrim and a 1600mm plate+hardeners and maybe a small rep
It works until you get some ****ed off heavy drones auto aggroed to you or you miss a jam (which happens much more often than you'd think)
You're rolling the dice with that deal, not to mention with the increased cap needs you're gonna be chewing through even more cap with that ECM burst, meaning your tiny cargo most likely won't last even 1 fight with cap booster charges. It's just not an option.
As for the Pilgrim being a good gang ship--I seriously want what you're smoking. Your average gang could make the Pilgrim a tertiary target and you'd die before the primary (not to metion stop EWarring to run your tank).
A Pilgrim in gangs has Scorpion syndrome nowadays.
I suggest you read what is written and stop filling in the blanks with fiction.
Then I fail to see how a sensor damp nerf would affect Pilgrims. I still contest however that a Pilgrim is a good gang ship. It has poor damage, and no cap to run its tank while neuting. With the necessity to fit a cap booster its mids are now lacking.
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.29 03:13:00 -
[6]
What needs to happen is for the pilgrim to get an extra mid to fit its new cap booster into, and perhaps a role bonus to neut cap use.
Its problem right now is that it doesn't have the cap to neut and tank at the same time.
Secondary problems are that its cargo bay (where the cap booster charges should go) is tiny.
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.29 13:56:00 -
[7]
I'd really like to see a Devs input on the whole Pilgrim situation. Especially one that has actually flown one on TQ.
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.29 16:33:00 -
[8]
Failing that I'd like a post from someone who actually is able to get the Pilgrim to work nowadays, and a description of what they've actually been able to kill with it and how.
As it is any pilot with half a brain and an injector fitted can kill a Pilgrim due to the long neut cycle time, tiny Pilly cargo for its cap charges, and the HP advantage most ships hold over the Pilly.
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.29 20:08:00 -
[9]
Amarr do get shafted quite a bit, but I'm much more concerned with the Pilgrim than anything else. See, the Pilgrim is the ship that got me into PvP in the first place. Watched "Behind Enemy Lines" by Ginaz when I was a wee noob with 2 months under my belt. At the time I was doing hauling and mining for a living, this video changed my EVE career.
I just loved the idea of stalking your prey unseen, and just decloaking right next to them and attacking. Nowadays instead of needing a new pair of shorts your enemy needs a new rib from laughing so hard.
I got into PvP, learned the ropes with the Arbitrator and graduated to the Pilgrim. I fly other races (notably Gallente, a bit of Caldari, just now getting into Minnie) but I always came back to the Pilgrim. While I can fly many ships the Pilgrim was my first love and it tears me up to see her reduced to a pile of scrap. If no change is made I predict we'll see prices of 30mil apiece in the next year, which will be amazing for a T2 cruiser.
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.31 13:10:00 -
[10]
It's funny, we haven't even gotten much negative feedback in this thread. I remember when the Nos nerf went into effect and people would post stuff like "Fill the lows with CPRs and put CCC rigs on it, it is still good!"
Guess those people actually fought someone with it and died.
I'd really like some Dev response on this issue!
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.11.01 22:29:00 -
[11]
Nothing wrong with pilgrim except for the slight possibility of not enough cargo space but thats minor.
Have you ever FLOWN a Pilgrim since the Nos nerf? Secondly the cargo space ISN'T minor, it's freaking HUGE. I can only fight in a minimal DPS ship for like 2-4mins before cap charges run out. If I'm having to run any reppers though your cap will bottom out before your charges do. EWar+tank deactivates, you die in 15-30secs.
covert cloak allows you to choose your battles, choose them more wisely next time imo.
OK, I guess next time instead of engaging that frigate that MWDs out of web range before I can target him due to locking delay of the decloak, or engaging that turreted HAC or BC I'll engage that T1 cruiser that I could beat...with a T1 frigate! Right!
Also fit 1 neut 2 nos
Fitting ANY nos right now is a waste of time. Your neuts will be pushing their cap below yours, which means the nos will do NOTHING.
Also bring TDs to a turret ship fight
And what exactly do you THINK we've been fitting? Dur.
Also 150 m3 drone bay incoming is 15 medium drones, bring ecm drones to escape a fight if u suddenly decide you're in over your head.
Firstly you're gonna need replacement drones as some ships can nearly 1-volley your medium drones and you can't scoop->deploy after the next patch. Secondly ECM drones are rolling the dice, using them certainly won't fix the multitude of problems with the Pilgrim.
Also dual rep tank the pilgrim since u have loads of cap with 2 nos and a med injector
So when my nos are returning no cap since my cap will be either the same (0) or higher than the target ship (for the first 30-60secs of the battle) and my injector is furiously trying to keep my neut running...where is the cap coming from to run my TWO reppers?
OK, all sarcasm aside, it doesn't work. The nos don't give you any cap. With only 1 neut your cap will be less strained, but you'll be doing very minimal cap damage to your target ship, so they'll just sit there and tank you until you run out of cap charges first.
No MWD either, thats dead pilgrim,
Again, HAVE YOU EVER FLOWN A PILGRIM? A MWD will help you get in quick and get away quick, but your approach will always be cloaked, so you're running at basespeed. In any decent scrap you'll be webbed so you won't be able to MWD away. Turning on the MWD makes your sig go THROUGH THE ROOF completely nullifying any theoretical advantage your TDs are giving you.
Only reason fitting a MWD to a Pilgrim is to avoid gatecamps that try to decloak you with inties. MWD->cloak and there's minimal chance they'll get you.
Armor rep amount rigs aswell
OK, now I'm SURE you're trolling. Armor rigs make you go slower, and you already go ~200m/s cloaked, which you'll be 90% of the time. With armor rigs you're gonna be somewhere around 160-170m/s prolly. HELL NO!
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Corwain
Gallente
Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.11.07 15:29:00 -
[12]
The Pilgrim will never damage well, we want the Pilgrim to tank well and tackle/ewar well which the Rapier can do with a speedtank and damps+webscram.
Right now the pilgrim can drain someone for 60secs, then cap out and die. It can't tank, yet it is required to operate withing 10km for med nos/neuts 5km if you fit small. WTF.
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