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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.02.26 21:20:00 -
[1]
 Quote:
Mr M > One feature I'd like to see is a way to disrupt jump gates. One way this could be done is that after the jump gate has taken x amount of damage it takes it y amount of time (modified by system security level) to realign itself. This would give pirates a tool to actually act as highway robbers and not just as homicidal maniacs. It could also be used to lure an attacking fleet into a system of choice.
TomB > Me too Mr M :)
TomB > But my fellow devs have too much fear of me having that feature ...
Mr M > With a way to disrupt the jump gates, and a large warp disruptor pirates would have the tools to lock down people and asking for a toll. Instead of just killing anything they see and hope they'll get some nice things from the wreck. So in the end, this could be a good thing for the victims too
TomB > I would like to hear more ideas on this subject, but no in here, I've been getting feedback on this on irc how pirates can do something else than just shooting down value for players etc. and I want to hear and discuss more on this subject.
I actually thought this would be the solution INSTEAD of warp disruption fields. It is badly needed. Right now, you can stop traffic going in one direction (coming thru the gate) somewhat effectively with a 40km disruption field (if you can get ahold of one  ) but you can't stop people from insta-jumping.
There needs to be a way to actually shut down one-way traffic through a jumpgate. The idea of piracy is to be able to HOLD UP traffic unless they can assemble a force to kick you out. Fine, lets not have it in empire space. I don't care about empire space anymore, better things are coming. But in terms of 0.0 space, it is BADLY needed if you want to defend a region.
In that sense it should merely be a module that you equip to your ship, with a certain effective range, that you lock the gate and activate it, shutting down that stargate.
If it were me programming it, I'd make it a module that can only be equipped on Covert Op ships.
Any thoughts?
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Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2004.02.26 22:47:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Hellspawn01 on 26/02/2004 22:47:44
Whoever has such a module can seperate a whole region like fountain. Disable the 3 main gates and the region is isolated like Jove space. Good thing for alliances, bad thing for traders, pkers and other pirats. Just imagine:
SA disables the 40GX-P system and the Stain region is free for all miners. They could mine and don¦t have to fear enemies from the other side of the gate.
This would make the game very unbalanced and unfair for the newer players.
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Eve is not game, it¦s a way of life! |
Rapturea
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Posted - 2004.02.26 23:06:00 -
[3]
monopolizing whole regions..
sorry, bad idea.
When I was a kid my favorite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school we'd all go play in his cave, and every once in a while he would eat one of us. It wasn't until later that I found out that Uncle Caveman was a bear. -jack handy |
Hematic
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Posted - 2004.02.26 23:54:00 -
[4]
As long as something shows up on the map as not working. I'm kind of against the idea of having a 100% death trap without any kind of prior knowledge.
It should also be something that requires enough effort to make it not so common so that every choke point to 0.0 is completely shut off with no hope of ever breaching it.
But the concept has merit.
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.02.27 01:27:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Cao Cao on 27/02/2004 01:28:43
Hellspawn,
I think the idea is that you can only disable the gate in one direction. So you'd actually have to have someone sitting at the jumpgate you wanted scrambled (and thereby having the possibility of being taken out by an opposing force). I agree with you that if you could disable the gate from the OTHER SIDE without any possibility of being challenged, yeah, kinda unbalanced.
But I don't think that's the idea. If CCP wants us to be able to control space, however, this is NECESSARY. There has to be a counter to bookmarks (which are fine IMO as people who put in effort are able to travel faster). Anyway I think this is a very very important element that needs to be implemented.
EDIT: would just like to point out how valuable this would be as an anti-pirate tool as well.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2004.02.27 02:31:00 -
[6]
This would be fine if Jump Drives were even remotely near being ready ... 
MOOrovingian  "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Robotek Hybrid
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Posted - 2004.02.27 03:00:00 -
[7]
i think we should put it in game and see how it works and how players will use it.Surely som1 will figure sum freaky way to use it.
how it would work in cao cao's words is the person jamming the gate in that system so no1 can leave that gate but ppl on the other side can still come thru.
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Araviel
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Posted - 2004.02.27 04:06:00 -
[8]
how about not making a completely jam, but just a light scramble that makes the jumps longer. lets say 2-5 sec before jump is possible, could be intressting. ?
EPIC Recruitment post
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Glyphe Temare
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Posted - 2004.02.27 08:34:00 -
[9]
Quote:
i think we should put it in game and see how it works and how players will use it.Surely som1 will figure sum freaky way to use it.
Easy, have both sides of the gate disrupted with the big fleet on the side that can be attacked. No way to get out or get in.
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lash
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Posted - 2004.02.27 09:12:00 -
[10]
Or how about this. Make the jam happen just like Cao Cao said. Say for indefinate periods of time. But make it so that only a Co Op ship can make the jam. Not only that make it so that the modual needed to fit on such a ship has around the same penalties as a Cloaking device. Basicly kills all cap and all shields. Having the modual require the exact same base stats as the ship gives in powergrid and cpu output would keep people from fitting really anything good otherwise. With the ship having to stay in the area of effect to keep the gate closed down you could easly make it possible.
A lone little frigate sitting next to a gate with no sentrys, no shields, and no cap is a very very soft target to take care of.
So what if the enemy knows your comming.
The area of effect should last around 5 minutes for the gate systems to regain control and reactivate the gate. This gives people time to hualt a progression of a enemy force temporarily, but also the ability to still over take a enemy with ease.
For pirates this would be a tool you need. With the high skill levels and softness of the target that the ship has it would scare away most of the n00b pirates. You could in effect with a solid sized force, the warp disruption fields and this new modual and requirments seal off a entrance and create chaos. But the seal wouldnt be forever.
This would also keep 2 people in battleships from just sitting there working as a furing squad, and let them actually hold people up.
Thats my thoughts on the matter.
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"You ever hear of the Seattle Seven? That was me. And, um, six other guys." |
Bobtheminer
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Posted - 2004.02.27 13:28:00 -
[11]
Why? Surely if you're not strong enough to keep people out, then natural selection will assure that you are usurped. Don't see why the devs should be expected to help you out in that situation.
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Finestaut
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Posted - 2004.02.27 13:43:00 -
[12]
I would argue that some of the deployables proposed in shiva would make fortifying a gate much, much easier and may make the idea of gate jamming obsolete. After all, you deploy a big warp scrambler, a force field, and 3 or 4 sentry guns over a gate, and what are they gonna do?
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.02.27 14:07:00 -
[13]
Quote:
I would argue that some of the deployables proposed in shiva would make fortifying a gate much, much easier and may make the idea of gate jamming obsolete. After all, you deploy a big warp scrambler, a force field, and 3 or 4 sentry guns over a gate, and what are they gonna do?
afaik those deployables must be deployed at a moon, within the sphere of influence of a control tower.
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DaniB
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Posted - 2004.02.27 15:25:00 -
[14]
Edited by: DaniB on 27/02/2004 15:29:24
Quote:
Quote:
Mr M > One feature I'd like to see is a way to disrupt jump gates. One way this could be done is that after the jump gate has taken x amount of damage it takes it y amount of time (modified by system security level) to realign itself. This would give pirates a tool to actually act as highway robbers and not just as homicidal maniacs. It could also be used to lure an attacking fleet into a system of choice.
TomB > Me too Mr M :)
TomB > But my fellow devs have too much fear of me having that feature ...
Mr M > With a way to disrupt the jump gates, and a large warp disruptor pirates would have the tools to lock down people and asking for a toll. Instead of just killing anything they see and hope they'll get some nice things from the wreck. So in the end, this could be a good thing for the victims too
TomB > I would like to hear more ideas on this subject, but no in here, I've been getting feedback on this on irc how pirates can do something else than just shooting down value for players etc. and I want to hear and discuss more on this subject.
I actually thought this would be the solution INSTEAD of warp disruption fields. It is badly needed. Right now, you can stop traffic going in one direction (coming thru the gate) somewhat effectively with a 40km disruption field (if you can get ahold of one ) but you can't stop people from insta-jumping.
There needs to be a way to actually shut down one-way traffic through a jumpgate. The idea of piracy is to be able to HOLD UP traffic unless they can assemble a force to kick you out. Fine, lets not have it in empire space. I don't care about empire space anymore, better things are coming. But in terms of 0.0 space, it is BADLY needed if you want to defend a region.
In that sense it should merely be a module that you equip to your ship, with a certain effective range, that you lock the gate and activate it, shutting down that stargate.
If it were me programming it, I'd make it a module that can only be equipped on Covert Op ships.
Any thoughts?
Simply answer: "No"
Why? Cause a small bunch of players (in so called alliances) control the entire non-empire room. So the slogan of Eve (5000+ systems) will end up in 1000 systems for the new gamer and empire players, 4000 few in alliances...
Problems? There will only be 2 factions left... the mighty alliances with "pro gamers" and the casual players not risking all (the never ending carebear story)
Instant jumps? Hell, 15km from gate is fine... stop that bookmarks now!
And last point... its difficult enough to come into the lucrative 0.0 non empire space as it is now... everywhere these sitting and waiting and nothin doin but scammin¦ uber pilotin¦ gatecampers... its bad enough like it is!
Iam scared on that idea, really...
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Imperishable
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Posted - 2004.02.27 18:44:00 -
[15]
This idea, if done properly, won't allow a group of players to cut off entire regions of space from all the outsiders. The key here is that gates would be disrupted only on one end. So lets say some alliance goes on other side of their border and cuts off the gate that leads inside. All thier ships will be stuck, they won't be able to run back home. And eventually, they will have to leave, or someone kicks them out.
Just do this: give gates lots of shields. If player brings down the shields to 50%, gate stops working. So the campers have to keep pounding on the gate now and then, else it starts working again. It's possible that during a long battle for the gate, it will start working before all the enemy is killed.
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Shauna
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Posted - 2004.02.27 22:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Shauna on 27/02/2004 22:39:29
Edited by: Shauna on 27/02/2004 22:26:44
Hmmmm, so I heard that the disruption fields only prevent someone from jumping out, right?
I'd think jumpgates could effectively be shut off by a module (or better yet, a small platform) that makes a disruption field that forced incoming warpfields to destabalize and thus make people drop from warp XX km from the destabalizer... you could effectively block off a gate by forcing people to drop from warp 30-50 km from the gate. Back it up with a sufficient blocade and people either have a looooooong gauntlet to run -or- run away... either way, the blcoade becomes very effective and insta-jumps are neutralized.
Course, if a sufficient force could get organized you could break the blocade. Such a device would necessarily take a little doing and some time to set up... and be sufficiently expensive that blocaders won't view it as something they just want to abandon unless things are pretty bad.
Oh well... just my idea of how I'd like to see some kind of warp interdiction platform =) |
Eneroth
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Posted - 2004.02.27 23:21:00 -
[17]
gonna be easy to stop bm users "when" shiva comes with all those nice stuff that u can deploy. Such as "X" that only allows corp members to warp in inside the range.
Ahh hard to explain. check the newsletter and look at a flash thingie and u will see.
-Any fool can pull a trigger.- |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.02.28 03:15:00 -
[18]
Quote:
gonna be easy to stop bm users "when" shiva comes with all those nice stuff that u can deploy. Such as "X" that only allows corp members to warp in inside the range.
Ahh hard to explain. check the newsletter and look at a flash thingie and u will see.
I don't think all "that stuff" can be deployed at a jumpgate, only at moons where you own a control tower.
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Sun Sliver
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Posted - 2004.02.28 23:18:00 -
[19]
Honestly I like the idea of having stargate scrams. Cant believe im saying that but peeps take advantage of stargate jumps to often. I would add 1 thing to it. Give a 60 sec delay on jumpin or a '1 warp in sys' break. Sometimes peeps come in by mistake and i would like to give them a chance to get out, but being able to keep an nmy in sys would be a fun hunt ;)
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Kalast Raven
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Posted - 2004.02.29 00:37:00 -
[20]
I think this is a terrible idea because it will eliminate speed as a method of running blockades. Perhaps bookmarks need to be eliminated but in no way should a person or group be able to disable gates, either from one side or both. Next thing you'll want is a deployable webifier...
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K. Raven
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Jhered Stern
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Posted - 2004.03.03 15:52:00 -
[21]
One thing that has made Eve more interesting was the concept of capturing a station. This has given alliances and PvP groups clear objectives in the game. However, this concept is still in its infancy and I would like to suggest a few things concerning star gates.
1)The idea of being able to jam a gate is a good one however devices for jamming a gate shouldnÆt be deployable. The use of these devices should be skill based and have strict limits placed on them. For instance, operating one of these devices should have a powerful effect on the operating ships systems. i.e. disrupts weapon tracking, locking, movement etc.
2)The use of these devices should require considerable group tactics on the part of the user(s).
3)Additionally, a counter measure such as a gate stabilizer should also be available. Ideally both sides of the gate would need to be captured in order to completely control traffic. Capturing one side only disrupts traffic from that direction.
4)Gates located at Key choke points should be susceptible to capture much like a space station. Ideally both sides of the gate would need to be captured in order to completely control traffic. These should be referred to separately from normal gates. We could call them primary gates.
5)Captured gates should have an interface that would allow the capturing party to set up defenses, alerts and tolls.
6)Captured gates should show up on the map and show who has captured the gate.
The purpose of the above is to bring in objectives for alliances and corporations to achieve. This would make the game much more interesting and create a visible measure of a corporation/alliances power in the game.
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Jhered Stern
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Posted - 2004.03.03 15:55:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Jhered Stern on 04/03/2004 02:53:53
Double post sorry!
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Xanther
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Posted - 2004.03.03 16:09:00 -
[23]
My personal opinion, it's a bad idea. Disabling bookmarks that let people instant jump is all you need. Blockade running can be fun, but you have to actually be able to run the blockade to do it. What happens when only these Uber allilances can acess the outer regions? prices for high end minerals spike, players can't afford anything without joining a corp (and there are some of us that like working solo), and people get ****ed. Deployable warp jammers at gates? sure
PC sentry guns at gates? could be unfair
Gate jammers? bad idea |
Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2004.03.04 01:49:00 -
[24]
I have an even better idea, why not outfit your starship with a coin operator so that you have to pay a toll to your favorite pirates anytime you want to undock, that way pirates will need even less work to do to make isk... grrreat
As if pirating wasn't easy enough as it is... Get a bunch of mates in battleships and camp a gate and wait for suckers to come through and kachiing!
Geeze how lazy can you be. But hey, go ahead, lock yourselves into you systems, we'll see how long it takes for people to stop coming through altogether. Pirates will have to do their own mining, for once, haha.
Greed and laziness aside (since obviously they are natural human tendencies), a way to make this fair would be to have a contingent of the gate's faction police/navy come in to restore working order x amount of time after the gate was disabled, as any consciencious owner/operator would do. This would force the lazy pirates to fight and kill the navy ships, or run...
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Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2004.03.04 02:03:00 -
[25]
and regarding CAO CAO's point about defending a region: use people... OR are you saying you want to be able to defend 'your region' as easily as possible? How can people come in to kick you out if the gates don't work?That is a bit of a problem for massive retaliation, eh?
Further, piracy was never about having a foolproof way to stop people. Successful pirates ambush and creep up on people, and sometimes, if the pirates don't execute well, the victim gets away, that's the nature of the business. Since when do pirates run toll booths? In reality they don't because they need to be able to run away from the law. You mean to turn piracy into a convenience experience, which is lame... If you want a sureshot moneymaker, go mine morphite, but don't try to make a travesti of piracy.
My last point brings me to a major issue in Eve, pirates do not suffer consequences of their lawlessness. I mean, who ever comes after them? How about some serious NPC bounty hunters to alleviate the dearth of player retaliation? The current security hit is a joke, seeing as pirate characters still make a fortune in empire space by using their alts to ship loot and zydrine to Yulai... And honestly I am ok with that, since you should reward resourcefulness, but toll booths? LMAO
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Tok Narok
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Posted - 2004.03.04 09:00:00 -
[26]
It's a good idea, something that I've been wanting for ages.
Instead of shutting down the entire gate though (which does seem to be a little too strong), why not just stop targetted ships jumping?
Perhaps a module similar to a warp scrambler, that "anchors the targetted ship in the current system" and stops it using the jump gates?
Sort of best of both worlds then...
Popular deviant. |
Ordo Abchao
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Posted - 2004.03.04 19:50:00 -
[27]
You can stop people with insta jumps, you just have to put your forces in the right place. Remember, they still have to warp from somewhere.
Order out of Chaos |
Mr M
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Posted - 2004.03.04 22:01:00 -
[28]
Quote:
1)The idea of being able to jam a gate is a good one however devices for jamming a gate shouldnÆt be deployable. The use of these devices should be skill based and have strict limits placed on them. For instance, operating one of these devices should have a powerful effect on the operating ships systems. i.e. disrupts weapon tracking, locking, movement etc.
2)The use of these devices should require considerable group tactics on the part of the user(s).
3)Additionally, a counter measure such as a gate stabilizer should also be available. Ideally both sides of the gate would need to be captured in order to completely control traffic. Capturing one side only disrupts traffic from that direction.
Yep, yep and yep. That was my basic idea. Also, to prevent this from being way too powerfull it should only be effective for a couple of minutes. So to cut off a region from intruders you'd to have a couple of battleships stationed there 24/7 (wich I don't think even the biggest corps can have (at least not for very long before the guards gets bored to tears)).
And yes, this is a great tool for pirates but I belive this can be a good thing for us all. Today pirates has a 10 second window before an incomming ship jumps the gate so there's really no time for them to ask for a toll. Instead they destroy your ship and hopes there will be some nice pieces to pick up. With a disrupted jump gate and a warp disruptor they'd have a lot more time. And we, the non pirates, would also have some time to offer them a bribe and/or plea for mercy. Sure, maybe you'd have to pay a couple of millions of isk or dump your cargo, but you would still have your ship.
http://orecalc.evegeek.com | http://www.evegeek.com |
Xanther
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Posted - 2004.03.05 16:02:00 -
[29]
I don't know how it works when you have it bookmarked, but here's what I think would work well.
Pirates deploy one or more warp jammers near gate. Anyone warping to the gate, whether from autopilot or a bookmark that's 1 meter from the gate, will drop out of warp at the edge of the disruption field. This makes sense as the warp drive would cut out at the edge of the disruption field.
Players are free to run away (unless the pirates web them), give in and pay whatever price the pirates demand, or try to run the blockade.
This would be easier on CCP as they wouldn't have to design a new set of modules from scratch and they wouldn't need to mess with how the gates work.
This is good for players because it makes it possible for corps to control regions like they want. You can't take control of the region without bringing in a fleet big enough to destroy or drive off the defenders. The only thing that would be able to consistently make it would be frigates(and interceptors) specifically fitted for speed. This creates a new PC career: blockade runner. I personally think this would solve the issues and be a lot of fun for the blockade runners. |
Jhered Stern
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Posted - 2004.03.05 16:33:00 -
[30]
Mr. M I share your ideas on this. Have the ability to capture key gates and control them would add flavor to the game. It would create objectives for corporations a alliances and provide a true measure of their strength. In addition it would generate a great deal of PvP and actually reduce the amount of pirating in Empire Space (thats if it is implemented in 0.0 as I suggested). Here is a good example:
Take P3EN-4 for example: you have 4 gates that would need to be taken in order to control this system. On the North end you have the IPAY to P3EN-4 gate (ng1) and the P3EN-4 to IPAY gate (ng2). To the South you have Obe to P3EN-4 (sg1) gate and P3EN-4 to Obe gate (sg2). This is a classical choke point and my suggestion for ôcapturableö gates would work well here.
Scenario : The FE wants to control all traffic into the Vale of the Silent. The sg1 gate is located in the Forge region and is the ôgatwayö from Caldari Space to FE space. ItÆs a .3 system thus the gate is uncapturable and due to the sentry guns it would not be advisable to try and jam this gate. However, the sg2 leads from a 0.0 (FE space) to a .3 so this gate would be susceptible to gate jamming. It would not be capturable because it does not have a capturable counterpart in Obe. So at the south end of P3EN-4 FE would have to commit at least 1 jamming ship to jam the gate and small force to protect the ship. This would allow FE to control traffic from P3EN-4 to Obe but not from Obe to P3EN-4.
Now in the North the Gate from ng2 has a complementary gate in ng1 since this is the only ingress/egress into this system this gate would be capturable like a space station and controlled. This would effectively allow FE to control P3EN-4 and trap an enemy within the system (thus making the system a strategic stronghold for FE which an enemy would need a significant force to take over). The problem FE faces in this scenario is that they would have to commit ships to protect both sides of the gate complex sg1 and sg2 to protect and control the complex. Once achieved they could toll charge traffic from ng1 to ng2 and vise a versa. Or completely blockade the system. The only way to break the blockade would be to capture ng1 or come up through the Obe side and capture ng2. There are other ways to do this but I think you get the point.
Imagine the battles that would take place in order to control just this one system. Who ever control these systems would indeed wield true power. Most importantly however, we will now have clear objectives in our wars as well as a measure of our skill and strength.
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