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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:08:00 -
[91]
Sure, you can find some pretty creative uses for a 1 mil ISK destroyer or a 5 mil ISK cruiser... but when people kind of already cringe of the idea to find some "creative use" for an underpowered assault frigate at 10-20 mil ISK, what "creative uses" DO you HOPE to find for a 800+ mil ISK piece of underpowered hardware ?
Sure, a Paladin makes a GREAT salvager, probably THE best possible salvager that could have ever existed... but will anybody actually use it as a salvager, at a 800+ mil pricetag ?
Hell no ! Maybe a couple of crazy people who have no clue what to do with their ISK, but that's about IT.
Yeah, stats aren't everything.
But believe it or not, some people actually are able to "glimpse" what can be one with a ship just by looking at its stats.
_
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Adunh Slavy
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:12:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: Akita T
[Mind "explaining" that in here then please ?
Done
-AS |
Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:14:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Steyr Daghan
In the real world tech evolution sometimes takes a step back or to the side. It's not perfectly linear, it's chaotic. Look att WWII for exemple, not every new tank that came out was successfull, better than what it was supposed to replace or could fill its role as intended. However, many of them turned out to be excellent at something they were not intended to be good at, when the soldiers got their hands on them. It's the same in EVE as you may have noticed. As William Gibson put it "the street finds its own uses for things".
A bit off topic here, but do you have an example of that tank analogy?
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Steyr Daghan
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:19:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Akita T
<snip>Hell no ! Maybe a couple of crazy people who have no clue what to do with their ISK, but that's about IT.
Yeah... you mean like carriers would probably make GREAT transports but who the hell would pay a billion for a transport?
Wait a second.... everyone is!
Huh.
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Adunh Slavy
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:20:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Qui Shon
A bit off topic here, but do you have an example of that tank analogy?
Sherman tank - Was never intended to be a bulldozer. Soldiers placed tractor blades (plows) on the front of the tanks to cut through the hedgerows of Normandy.
-AS |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:26:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Steyr Daghan
stuff about wwII
i dont care about rl stuff and real world military evolution. i care about shipstats and roles that are of use to ME. marauders are not usefull for me thus i complain. for all roles a marauder can fulfill i have a better cheaper alternative except for tractoring up to 40k. so i give a **** about evolution and hidden niche roles they maybe could fill. i want a well designed marauder that gives me a time advanteage while doing pve in form of faster killing to make eve's pathetic pve content more bearable.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:29:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Akita T
[Mind "explaining" that in here then please ?
Done
Might want to actually read the thread, and keep reading the replies 
Originally by: Steyr Daghan
Originally by: Akita T
<snip>Hell no ! Maybe a couple of crazy people who have no clue what to do with their ISK, but that's about IT.
Yeah... you mean like carriers would probably make GREAT transports but who the hell would pay a billion for a transport?
Wait a second.... everyone is!
Huh.
And I suppose the fact that they have MORE raw firepower as most battleships (and a huge dronebay for encounters with smaller/different ships), can jump to cross blockades or just get anywhere fast, that they can repair (well, half of them anyway) POS shields, that they make moster supports (either shield/armor/energy, pick two), that they have an insane tank (both raw HP and DPS), that they can carry assembled ships and full of cargo too, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME costing roughly as much as a Marauder would end up in cost now has absolutely nothing to do with what you just said... right ?
Oh, and they might not get the DPS nerf, but they ARE getting the transport nerf, and they will end up eventually losing some DPS in "solo" situations somehow.
Yes, they ARE getting nerfed, and nerfed severely.
And they still will cost as much, and will STILL be more popular as the Marauders.
Because Marauders share a few major drawbacks with the carriers (1-bil-ish pricetag AND insane skill requirements), but from most other viewpoints, they are vastly inferior.
The only thing they can do better ? Tractor from 40km instead of 20km (heh) and use normal stargates. That's IT.
_
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Laudicia
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:31:00 -
[98]
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:36:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Oh really, then why did you comment on a post comparing modules to ships then, eh? If they are apples to car parts, you should have said so from the start.
Instead you wanted to compare price and performance, and I showed the simple fact that increased price does not always mean increased performance, and especially so when comparing faction to T2. Only after this did the comparison become off topic to you.
I'm not going to play the infinite recursive quote game, so go back and reference the posts yourself. Kimiko Kurosawa asked a question about the new T2 ships and why anyone would bother. This turned into a discussion specifically about the price progression of ships, with an emphasis toward T1 BS >>> Faction >>> Marauder. Someone else *coughyouraltcough* randomly decided to bring T2 mods into the discussion, then made a statement about battleships and how they equate to T2 modules. Simply put? They don't. T1 >>> named T1 >>> T2 >>> Faction modules scale across two, three, maybe four variables. The progression is mostly linear decreases to fitting requirements and increases to benefit, with T2 typically being an exception Ships vary across a dozen variables. They do so in some very, very dramatic ways. The ships themselves quite often change roles from the base ship.
A T1 cap charger increases your cap recharge rate. A T2 cap charger does the same. So does best named, faction, storyline, you name it. A covert ops ship is fundamentally different from the frigate upon which it is based. Apples and car parts.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:47:00 -
[100]
Ahh, good point. Thanks Aduhn. Just thinking about it makes me want to reinstall Company of Heroes and fire up the ol' Tommycooker.
Originally by: d026
i want a well designed marauder that gives me a time advanteage while doing pve in form of faster killing to make eve's pathetic pve content more bearable.
But will it? Even if you got your 300-600mill state issue raven, would that make your PvE more bearable? Are you shooting for a certain isk amount, and stop missioning, stop "suffering the pain", when you reach it? Is that really all CCP should design the Marauders for, to reduce the time you have to suffer missioning?
Now that you put it in such crass words, maybe underpowered but versatile really isn't such a bad way to go. So all that remains is reducing the price, fixing the Paladin, and maybe nerfing Kronos a bit. (Yes yes, I said it, nerf for balance...sigh.)
As for myself, even though the income is paramount, I still *enjoy* certain aspects of missioning, I still want to try out new combo setups for my missioning duo. Perhaps when I've exhausted all effective combos of the four races BS's I can think of I'll start to feel like you do. For now, I have a few ideas I'd like to try with the Golem / Kronos / Sin as they are now, all those slots gives so manny options.
Unfortunately, cross training so much means I won't have the skill prerequisites anytime soon.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:49:00 -
[101]
Quote:
*tank analogy*
The problem with the tank analogy is that Germany, England, Russia, etc. didn't have an open market and a spreadsheet full of numbers they could parse ad infinitum. The playerbase has the kind of tools at their hands to objectively say, "X performs qualitatively worse in category Y than ship Z." While numbers aren't everything, they're enough to sway the populace away from bad risks with minuscule potential for equivalent reward. No use no input, no input no changes, no changes no use, and the band plays on.
Regardless, what we're doing with all these side tracks and all the nit-picking is arguing about the third brush stroke from the right hand corner in a Monet of Fail. Akita's right: nobody seems to be at the helm ATM.
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Arvald
Caldari
House of Tempers
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:58:00 -
[102]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Well, htat's a bit debatable and "taste" oriented really.
I don't mind future nerfing of things, or like i like to call it, changing of things, but i do like new content and i for one can see many many wondrous uses for the marauder.
Not to mention our wovely drone frigate, BS sized cov-ops etc.
The matter off "this stat % vs this stat %", is the kind of EVE i don't play, and as such, it becomes an opinion thing.
but can you argue with the ECM frigate?
base opitmal range on ECM:52 km
base locking range on EW frigate:50km
WHY!!! WHY!!! what does the bonus to ECM range DO!!!!
it does nothing... it's not needed...
i agree with this, i was so looking forward to being able to jam an enemy bs at 150km WAAAAAAAAAAAH
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Im in your forums derailing your threads |
Steyr Daghan
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:02:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Qui Shon
A bit off topic here, but do you have an example of that tank analogy?
I was also thinking of the Sherman. An even better (non-tank) analogy would perhaps be the german 88 mm anti-aircraft gun (not bad nor outstanding in its intended role, but exceptional when someone pointed it at a tank).
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:08:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Now that you put it in such crass words, maybe underpowered but versatile really isn't such a bad way to go. So all that remains is reducing the price, fixing the Paladin, and maybe nerfing Kronos a bit. (Yes yes, I said it, nerf for balance...sigh.)
Reducing the price and drasticaly lower the skillreq would be def a way to go if the bonuses stay as they are.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:10:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Even if you got your 300-600mill state issue raven, would that make your PvE more bearable? Are you shooting for a certain isk amount, and stop missioning, stop "suffering the pain", when you reach it? Is that really all CCP should design the Marauders for, to reduce the time you have to suffer missioning?
Yeah it would, i could go back to more interesting stuff earlyer.
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Steyr Daghan
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:13:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Steyr Daghan
Originally by: Akita T
<snip>Hell no ! Maybe a couple of crazy people who have no clue what to do with their ISK, but that's about IT.
Yeah... you mean like carriers would probably make GREAT transports but who the hell would pay a billion for a transport?
Wait a second.... everyone is!
Huh.
And I suppose the fact that they have MORE raw firepower as most battleships (and a huge dronebay for encounters with smaller/different ships), can jump to cross blockades or just get anywhere fast, that they can repair (well, half of them anyway) POS shields, that they make moster supports (either shield/armor/energy, pick two), that they have an insane tank (both raw HP and DPS), that they can carry assembled ships and full of cargo too, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME costing roughly as much as a Marauder would end up in cost now has absolutely nothing to do with what you just said... right ?
Wrong. On the contrary what you said have nothing to do with it.
I would bet half the carriers in eve do not see any combat, at least not intentionally. They're being used as transports because its the only reasonably safe way to transport anything to and from 0.0.
So for that use, and presumably for most carriers, the firepower and rep-power are not factors. For those who use them as such they are 1 bil transports.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:14:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Arvald
i agree with this, i was so looking forward to being able to jam an enemy bs at 150km WAAAAAAAAAAAH
Hmm... REALLY ? Let's look at it slightly differently.
You get 54km optimal jamming range at max skills (plus a 27km falloff) on any ship with multispectrals.
On racial jammers, it's 81km optimal, and 40.5km falloff on any ship.
On the Kitsune, you get up to 50% extra range, so up to 81km multispec and 121.5km racial, on top of the falloff.
Now, the base lock range on the Kitsune is 42km (down from 60km on the T1 version).
With max skills, that's 52.5 km.
Now, assuming the new scripts WILL enable SBIIs to grant the same 60% range boost (base range boost is now just 30%), you get...
With one Sensor Booster II, 84km (and you just gave up one ECM slot).
With a second Sensor Booster II, 127+ km (and you just gave up 40% of your max jamming power by using 2 out of 5 midslots).
So, in order to get enough targetting range to reach the max OPTIMAL of your modules (not falloff, just optimal), you have to sacrifice two out of five possible slots to sensor boosting.
Oh, and did I meantion, this ship is a SHIELD tanker ? With just two lowslots ?
So... remind me again, what's the point of an ECM optimal range bonus on THIS ship ?
It's like a slap on the face saying "haha, here, have some bonus which if you plan on using, you need to cripple your fit".
_
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Stakhanov
The Good Fellas
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:21:00 -
[108]
Eve has a lot of nearly useless content , with more and more pre-nerfed stuff being added indeed. There is a good deal of items that desperately need buffing , yet CCP insists on pulling controversial nerfs. The stealth bomber buff happened only because there was a racial imbalance and enough people to whine about it...
Most ewar drones are worthless , so are half of the rigs. Most smartbombs are too weak , only the largest / best ones can be useful for a few specific jobs.
Electronic support could use a boost , projected ECCM and tracking links are way inefficient and underpowered (remote sensor booster is fine though)
Overloading guns is pretty useless as well. +15% DPS for a few seconds is not significant when trying to kill a passive tank , when a few wrecking hits have the same effect.
Pre-nerfed level 5 missions are the worst. What's the point of taking more risks (lowsec) to finish a harder mission for less rewards ?
Originally by: F'nog
One does not simply log into Jita.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:36:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Amarria Black
Someone else randomly decided to bring T2 mods into the discussion, then made a statement about battleships and how they equate to T2 modules. Simply put? They don't. T1 >>> named T1 >>> T2 >>> Faction modules scale across two, three, maybe four variables. The progression is mostly linear decreases to fitting requirements and increases to benefit, with T2 typically being an exception Ships vary across a dozen variables. They do so in some very, very dramatic ways. The ships themselves quite often change roles from the base ship.
A T1 cap charger increases your cap recharge rate. A T2 cap charger does the same. So does best named, faction, storyline, you name it. A covert ops ship is fundamentally different from the frigate upon which it is based. Apples and car parts.
There is nothing random about that comparison, and you chose to comment and participate in that comparison, so you accepted it.
The better fitting requirements of equal or lesser performance faction/T2 modules is such a great match for the equal "performance" Raven / Golem. Like some people define the Ravens performance only in term of DPS, hardener performance is only related to the resistance modifier it gives. Where the Golem gives additional benefits other then direct DPS, the hardener also has additional benefits beyond strict "performance".
T2 hardener costs ~2-3mill, CN, GN hards cost 20-35mil. Same performance but additional benefits, 10x the price. Then there's Domi/Republic hards, worse performance then T2, higher price.
The role of the Buzzard is scouting and exploration. The role of the Heron is, guess what, scouting and exploration. Buzzard is merely immensly better at one, and somewhat better at the other. There is no fundamental difference between these two. Why the other races are not inline with this, I don't know. Maybe something else Akita should complain about, what with the inconsistencies and all.
The progression from T1/T2 to faction and back is not linear, and not uniform across all modules, let alone all modules and ships, and certainly not when considering linear bang for the buck. And it *doesn't need to be*
I'm not saying the Marauders couldn't use a boost, sure they could. I think reduced price and a few reworked bonuses, minor tweaks, would be better for the game then new pwn machines. Just creating an affordable (@ 1bn) State Raven..well, why? Sure I'd want one, but I don't really see the added value to Eve from that. Creating a more versatile package, with same level performance, at most a marginal dps improvement, but allowing you all sorts of setups, now that is much more interesting. Added benefit is that Faction battleships aren't reduced to newbie ships or collectors items.
The price for such a T2 ship is too high though, on that I think almost everyone agrees.
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Pattern Clarc
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:38:00 -
[110]
Don't forget triage mode...
It's imposible to use triage with a shield tank in anything but a Wvyern with an avatar in support...
If you want to look to the last time you did it just right.... Look at interdictors..
Quote:
[02:31:17] ISD BH Kestrelprime > The Pally is powerful enough.
[02:31:27] ISD BH Kestrelprime > All it needs is a hearthstone so it can Bubblehearth.
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Jita TradeAlt
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Posted - 2007.10.29 17:21:00 -
[111]
This is like the first thread in months in general where pretty much every comment makes sense, I'm still not sure if I'm awak yet.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.29 18:40:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Jita TradeAlt
This is like the first thread in months in general where pretty much every comment makes sense, I'm still not sure if I'm awak yet.
It's a nightmare
_
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Crazy Yuri
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.30 03:25:00 -
[113]
You know its bad when players are NOT looking forward to the next expansion. 
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.10.30 03:40:00 -
[114]
Originally by: "Akita T"
*stuff thats too long to quote properly*
Originally by: David Hackworth
ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Siege
Minmatar
Siegecraft Bounty Hunting
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Posted - 2007.10.30 03:50:00 -
[115]
I'm actually looking forward to the black-ops ships, and am already thinking of really annoying tactics for deep-raiding and bridgeheading of larger assaults. But those aren't ready to discuss yet. However, I do find the concept very appealing when viewed with the full range of ships that will augment and co-ordinate in those roles.
Still not sure why folks thing that T2 needs to be a better line-combat ship than T1. Take the entire Covert-Ops/Recon tree for example. Cov-Op frigates basically don't do any form of damage. Cloaking recons are heavily reduced in damage from their T1 counterparts. Stealh bombers are very limited in their roles, and have high DPS but are paper thin and quirky. So, by extension of that, the Black-Ops battleships have no purpose in being more powerful in a fleet battle than their T1 varients.
However, what they can do will be extremely powerful and useful if used properly. Be it establishing a defended jump-bridgehead for larger forces. Raiding. Recon. Going after industrial pilots.
I'm really looking forward to them.
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Astorothe
Amarr
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.30 04:12:00 -
[116]
Original topic was well put and made a lot of sense - which is alarming considering this is the Eve-O forums.
So here goes - at the moment new content is handled like this:
1) implement a new idea that CCP/dev team wants and has been working on in the background
2) within 24 hours deploy a hot fix to resolve the issues the new content caused
3) apply several more patches over several weeks to fix those issues
4) tweak and modify the new content over the next 12 months until it settles into the game
Personally, and this is my opinion only - I would like to see existing content and mechanics fixed. There are so many important issues in the complex game already that need a lot of love and attention - and issues that we (the community) have been screaming for over a long period of time.
Its a complex game - it's currently the best in it's genre - and while that's true we'll just have tough it out and see where it goes. At the end of the day - we agree to accept everything when we pay our monthly subs =) Gluttons for punishment.
Web design, development and hosting solutions for Eve Corps |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.10.30 04:13:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Akita T
A Whine
You're absolutely right Akita. Here's hoping you see some results. =/
Liang
--
Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.10.30 04:25:00 -
[118]
Originally by: MotherMoon
personally me and my corp makes lots of money with invention.
however... it may be time to **** over everyone that has a T2 BPO and make all T2 BPOs with T2 BPC with a lot of runs.
Or jsut make invention cheaper by a lot.
thus, the t2BPO owners will be ****** over again.
the thing is... while it may beok with BPOs on the market the new ships don't have BPOs and thus your using the sma system for two different systems.
I mean make it hard but make it... easier.
or just change everything?
agree with you and with the OP.
seems like they are not paying inattention at all to what the players think
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.10.30 05:31:00 -
[119]
heavily prenerfed content is a lot better than content that needs to be changed many times later on and in different ways and sometimes from every angle
____ __ ________
_sig below_
devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
_lies above_
CCP Morpheus was here
Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
[yellow]Kaem |
Bozl1n
Caldari
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.10.30 05:56:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Akita T
_
Or hey, what about Amarr ?
We're hearing about some "oomph" they're supposed to finally get, and Khanid is definetely not "it".
How long have Amarr been the "underdogs" now... is it 2 years ? 3 years almost ?
Amarr players are not the underdog, amarr pilots simply whine more per square inch than any other race player.
Sig returned after a victory with the appeal \o/ ;)~ |
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