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Xilimyth Derlin
The Funkalistic
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.31 14:26:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Xilimyth Derlin on 31/10/2007 14:27:08
 Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Xilimyth Derlin
This is a grey subject though. How would the game treat a crash versus someone just ALT-F4ing?
i don't think activating a module would cause an emergency warp ;)
Ok... ALT-F4 was too generic ^_^ How about pushing the little red X in windows mode OR (if that's seen as a 'client exit' method.... just killing the process in Windows ie. End-Task)
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.10.31 14:37:00 -
[32]
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
Sorry for posting about log offs again, I wasnt really aware that many threads already existed as Im relatively new to pvp and this is the first experience of someone doing this. The Eve forums dont have any kind search function which makes digging up old info hard.
Just as an FYI:
There is a Search function here. Look in the top right corner of this page.
Although to be fair it is pretty awful so most players use EVE Search instead. Very handy.
Carry on!
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.10.31 14:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
Sorry for posting about log offs again, I wasnt really aware that many threads already existed as Im relatively new to pvp and this is the first experience of someone doing this. The Eve forums dont have any kind search function which makes digging up old info hard.
Just as an FYI:
There is a Search function here. Look in the top right corner of this page.
Although to be fair it is pretty awful so most players use EVE Search instead. Very handy.
Carry on!
Cheesman - apologiese for nothing. Log Off still plague the game - CCP are doing nothing about it - And to resurrect an old thread would leave you open to charges of necroism.
Keep posting, Keep bringing the subject up in a sensible manner and maybe CCP will act.
SKUNK
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.31 14:56:00 -
[34]
Originally by: AntonioBanderas
^^this
is it so hard to implenemt quitting signal to a client? If user quits, signal is sent to the server to let him know that client it's quitting by user request. Otherwise, if no signal is sent, server assumes thet connection was lost and it initiates warp to safety. So CTRL+Q would send signal.
Plugging the ethernet cord out of NIC wouldnt, but atleast it woudl be a hassle.
Well, how should someone logoff in space then? If I am alone in a starsystem, and I CTRL Q because I am going to bed, under your suggestion I would stay in space. There needs to be a reasonably safe and fast way to logout in space that doesnt lead to people getting killed while logged off, unless they are under aggression.
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Xilimyth Derlin
The Funkalistic
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.31 14:59:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: AntonioBanderas
^^this
is it so hard to implenemt quitting signal to a client? If user quits, signal is sent to the server to let him know that client it's quitting by user request. Otherwise, if no signal is sent, server assumes thet connection was lost and it initiates warp to safety. So CTRL+Q would send signal.
Plugging the ethernet cord out of NIC wouldnt, but atleast it woudl be a hassle.
Well, how should someone logoff in space then? If I am alone in a starsystem, and I CTRL Q because I am going to bed, under your suggestion I would stay in space. There needs to be a reasonably safe and fast way to logout in space that doesnt lead to people getting killed while logged off, unless they are under aggression.
A lot of people don't understand that. They'll sadly just throw the... "If RL is more important then your ship, you deserve to loose it" excuse for logging in space.
That's a pretty low excuse against those with hecktic lives O-o
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Golan Cinquanteneuf
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Posted - 2007.10.31 15:09:00 -
[36]
"The point...is there anything I can do about it?"
CCP's stand is that any player can log off any time they want for any reason.
Come on man. You're a pirate. Act like one and stop whining.
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FreddyCheeseman
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Posted - 2007.10.31 15:09:00 -
[37]
Edited by: FreddyCheeseman on 31/10/2007 15:12:32
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
I dont get how some people can defend it, maybe im just some sort of idiot with noble ideas of honour and going down fighting.
I have to agree with Jaketh here. There is absolutely nothing noble about trying to gank what are essentially non-combatants, however temporary their status as such may be.
Non-consensual PvP is an important part of the game for sure, but there's nothing *noble* about it. Don't use that word and your logoffski whine is just fine and dandy.
OK I guess thats fair enough, bad choice of wording on my part. But my corp is at war with this guys corp, and as far as I can see that makes him a viable target 100% of the time. He is fully aware he is at war, and if he chooses to run a mission during that time I do not really see why that puts him out of bounds as a potential target. If I chose to autopilot through space in a badger carrying a cargo of expensive T2 mods and implants during wartime, I would definitely NOT be a combatant, but I would in no way shape or form expect to reach my destination in one piece....
Edit// Golan I didnt intend for this to be a whine as such, although it blatently is and theres no use me trying to say otherwise. It was more a post on an issue I was unsure on which has developed nicely into a whine.
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Golan Cinquanteneuf
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Posted - 2007.10.31 15:19:00 -
[38]
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
Edited by: FreddyCheeseman on 31/10/2007 15:12:32
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
I dont get how some people can defend it, maybe im just some sort of idiot with noble ideas of honour and going down fighting.
I have to agree with Jaketh here. There is absolutely nothing noble about trying to gank what are essentially non-combatants, however temporary their status as such may be.
Non-consensual PvP is an important part of the game for sure, but there's nothing *noble* about it. Don't use that word and your logoffski whine is just fine and dandy.
OK I guess thats fair enough, bad choice of wording on my part. But my corp is at war with this guys corp, and as far as I can see that makes him a viable target 100% of the time. He is fully aware he is at war, and if he chooses to run a mission during that time I do not really see why that puts him out of bounds as a potential target. If I chose to autopilot through space in a badger carrying a cargo of expensive T2 mods and implants during wartime, I would definitely NOT be a combatant, but I would in no way shape or form expect to reach my destination in one piece....
Edit// Golan I didnt intend for this to be a whine as such, although it blatently is and theres no use me trying to say otherwise. It was more a post on an issue I was unsure on which has developed nicely into a whine.
I didn't mean to pile on, but I've seen similar threads on this issue. Better hunting next time.
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Shanur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.10.31 15:27:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Cheesman - apologiese for nothing. Log Off still plague the game - CCP are doing nothing about it - And to resurrect an old thread would leave you open to charges of necroism.
Keep posting, Keep bringing the subject up in a sensible manner and maybe CCP will act.
SKUNK
Sensible being: recognise that CCP has admitted they see it as a problem but do not know how to solve it without penalizing people who disconnect due to equipment or network failure.
As for the part of detecting the cause of a disconnect, i'd be curious to know how failsafe it is. Sure you can identify ctrl + q, or pulling out the modem cable if you have a typical DSL setup (meaning the connection between your firewall and the game is still active), but what if i pull out the power cable of my PC? What if i exploit a flaw in my motherboard that triggers the exact same crash that a known sound bug in EAX drivers causes, just by plugging my backup ethernet adapter into the USB port of my keyboard? What if i yank out the DSL cable instead of the network cable between my firewall and the PC, thus faking a genuine loss of service? Could that detector really discriminate between those tricks and genuine issues like the aforementioned sound crash, a power failure or a network disruption?
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Captain Thunk
Omniscient Order
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.10.31 16:00:00 -
[40]
Windows has a generic call for closing a programme - so any form of exiting the programme would pass through it, be it ctrl+q, esc 'quit' or end process through taskbar manager - you could have the correct code here to say the game is being closed cleanly and properly sending a signal to server to say so. Anything else, be it game crash, internet disconnect, nuclear holocaust wouldn't send the message to the server. The server could then use the information to determine what happens to the player and ship.
CCP haven't bothered because there's no point, people will just move their modem cable to within arms reach and yank the cable if and when needed. No risk, Maximum reward. The same people who ctrl+q would go to the trouble of doing that.
THUNK!
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.10.31 16:01:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 31/10/2007 16:02:19
Originally by: Shanur
Originally by: Le Skunk
Cheesman - apologiese for nothing. Log Off still plague the game - CCP are doing nothing about it - And to resurrect an old thread would leave you open to charges of necroism.
Keep posting, Keep bringing the subject up in a sensible manner and maybe CCP will act.
SKUNK
Sensible being: recognise that CCP has admitted they see it as a problem but do not know how to solve it without penalizing people who disconnect due to equipment or network failure.
As for the part of detecting the cause of a disconnect, i'd be curious to know how failsafe it is. Sure you can identify ctrl + q, or pulling out the modem cable if you have a typical DSL setup (meaning the connection between your firewall and the game is still active), but what if i pull out the power cable of my PC? What if i exploit a flaw in my motherboard that triggers the exact same crash that a known sound bug in EAX drivers causes, just by plugging my backup ethernet adapter into the USB port of my keyboard? What if i yank out the DSL cable instead of the network cable between my firewall and the PC, thus faking a genuine loss of service? Could that detector really discriminate between those tricks and genuine issues like the aforementioned sound crash, a power failure or a network disruption?
The solution is simple and they have already half implemented it.
If MR X jumps through a gate. Uncloaks, i get a point on him, he logs then I have 15 mins to probe him down.
IF MR X jumps through a gates, logs whilst cloaks, i get a point on him HE DISAPPEARS INTO THIN AIR
Why do CCP put in some so called 'protection' for the player with the unstable connection if you log 1 seconds before uncloaking but no protection for the player who logs 1 second after uncloaking.
It makes no sense.
If you log whilst cloaked, and I get a point on you - It should treat you exactly then same as if you log 1 seconds after decloaking.
An as far as im concerned - if your connection drops mid fight tough ****e. You dont get televised football matches pausing mid transmission because Mrs Muggins from number 73s TV gone on the blink again.
In many thousands of PVP fights ive had a connection failure twice. Ive seen hundreds of people log mid fight, some even gloating about it afterwards. Ive seen the same person go 30 jumps though empty space fine and dandy and "mysteriously crash connection" upon jumping into my camp on three separate occasions.
SKUNK
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.10.31 16:22:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 31/10/2007 16:25:41
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Well, how should someone logoff in space then? If I am alone in a starsystem, and I CTRL Q because I am going to bed, under your suggestion I would stay in space. There needs to be a reasonably safe and fast way to logout in space that doesnt lead to people getting killed while logged off, unless they are under aggression.
This is the only fair complaint to it that I see. CCP should put a logoff "spot" in every system. When you want to go to bed you warp to it and the game promptly logs you off upon arrival...period (if someone has aggression on you then the ship stays as usual for 15 minutes). When you log back in the game should place you randomly in the system (and never on a grid with any warpable objects).
Other than that I find the disconnect issue not very persuasive. Most connections are rather stable and if you have one that regularly drops you then you need to talk to your ISP about it or find a new ISP or have someone who knows computers check your PC out. In the meantime avoid flying into dangerous situations if your connection sucks that bad. But it is entirely your issue and 99.9% of the time you will be working fine.
Of course it happens from time to time to everyone. **** happens but the chances of it happening *just* when you jump into a gate camp are so remote that I do not think CCP should molly coddle the few people it does happen to. The alternative allowing people to logoffski is far worse and FAR more common.
Apparently this is a very real issue now with capital and supercapital ships. They take so long to kill the person can logoff and unless they are under massive fire (in which case they are dead no matter what) they have a good chance of beating the logoff timer even with 15 minutes. That's bull****.
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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group
PURGE.
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Posted - 2007.10.31 17:48:00 -
[43]
The 'log off' game machanic failed as soon as the ratio of logoffskis to legitimate disconects reached 1000:1
I believe its around 11,237:1 now.
Stop calling it a game mechanic. Its an exploit.
<3 Treb
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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group
PURGE.
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Posted - 2007.10.31 17:49:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 31/10/2007 16:26:26
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Well, how should someone logoff in space then?15 minutes. That's bull****.
What do you think NPC stations are for. If theres not one around, deploy a POS. Jesus Christ!
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slothe
Caldari
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.10.31 17:59:00 -
[45]
there is little risk in 0.0 now
to avoid death simply-
1. Log off before aggro. (1 minute then disappear)
2. cloak. (undetectable)
3. fly a nano ship. (difficult to catch as they wont engage you if you have the counter a huginn or rapier)
if these problems are not looked at by ccp in the near future im leaving for sure, and im sure others will. in fact people have left already as eve is much less fun than it used to be.
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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group
PURGE.
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Posted - 2007.10.31 18:06:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Trebor Notlimah on 31/10/2007 18:06:31
Originally by: slothe
there is little risk in 0.0 now
to avoid death simply-
1. Log off before aggro. (1 minute then disappear)
2. cloak. (undetectable)
3. fly a nano ship. (difficult to catch as they wont engage you if you have the counter a huginn or rapier)
if these problems are not looked at by ccp in the near future im leaving for sure, and im sure others will. in fact people have left already as eve is much less fun than it used to be.
I can Handle #3 because theres is an ingame solution for it so you can prepare for it. My alliance doesn't pvp anymore unless there is a 1:5 ratio of intys/nano/huggin/rapiers in the gang because of the way pvp is heading. Speed tanks FTW!
What I cant handle is #1 and #2. If they logoff without aggression theres NO WAY to get them. If they safespot and cloak theres NO WAY to get them. Its not a fun game anymore when things are being done and theres NO WAY to counter them. Forget nerfing nos/fighters/drones/etc. This exploit is hurting EvE 100x more than the 100's of nerfs and 'fixes' in the past few patches.
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Loyal Servant
Caldari
Viper Intel Squad
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.10.31 19:07:00 -
[47]
OKAY.
I am going to feed this fire.
BEFORE the flames ensure, think about this one......
I am a programmer, and as such know about these things.
CCP can, if they WANTED TO.... augment the events that fire when an application exits normally.
That logout button when you punch escape, that red X on the corner, they can all be augmented to TELL the server you exited the client in that fashion.
If the server receives no such message, client crash/connection loss.
This is a double edged sword and not a full solution for the simple reason that you can simply drop your connection to simulate this.
(pull the ethernet out, etc)
Log these events, and if someone has this happening excessively, consider it an exploit.
I am sure someone will poke holes in this pseudo-suggestion, so have at it.
I will enjoy the feedback as it only helps me understand the flaws in my 'just thought up in the last 10 minutes' suggestion.
Go for it.
Think it is a good idea? ok.
Tell me why...
Think it is a bad idea, tell me why.
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Anros Minark
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Posted - 2007.10.31 19:16:00 -
[48]
I seem to recall that UO campfire logout thing.... it was quite fluffy.  |
Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.11.01 00:30:00 -
[49]
When the Dark crusade expansion for Dawn of war was released there was an exploit where people could interfere with the networking function of the game and then drop from the match yet still receive the win, The logging system was sophisticated enough to differentiate between players quiting, PC crashes and unplugging of the modems and it enabled Relic to catch the exploit users and perma ban their CD keys.
Exactly how it does this is a mystery to me I'm no programmer and have no knowledge of networking.
Originally by: MOTOK0
A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Phantom Slave
Amarr
Mozzaki United
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:31:00 -
[50]
I think they should treat all log-offs as the same, whether they are agressed or not.
If you don't want your ship blown up out in space, log off in a station, otherwise deal with the consequences.
____________________
Pirating in EVE is like kicking a squirrel and stealing his food. The squirrel hates you afterwards, but it's fun none the less. |
Maglorre
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:47:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Trebor Notlimah
<snip>
Quote:
1. Log off before aggro. (1 minute then disappear)
2. cloak. (undetectable)
3. fly a nano ship. (difficult to catch as they wont engage you if you have the counter a huginn or rapier)
<snip>
<snip>
What I cant handle is #1 and #2. If they logoff without aggression theres NO WAY to get them. If they safespot and cloak theres NO WAY to get them. Its not a fun game anymore when things are being done and theres NO WAY to counter them. Forget nerfing nos/fighters/drones/etc. This exploit is hurting EvE 100x more than the 100's of nerfs and 'fixes' in the past few patches.
#2 I don't really have an issue with. If someone has come fitted with a cloak and they manage to cloak before we catch them or if they manage to escape and cloak then that's fine.
#1 really sucks. Particularly when they are already agressed and then they manage to get to a gate to jump and log out. This seems to reset the agro timer for the logout and they disappear a short time after uncloaking.
Lame. Even as a carebear and sometime PVPer I have never logged out to avoid combat. One of the first shortcut changes I made was to disable ctrl-q because it was too close to ctrl-a and I kept logging myself out when trying to select everything in a can. Complete PITA when salvaging/looting.
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