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Tetsuya Tsyung Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.01.27 08:16:00 - [1] - Quote If this has already been discussed, I apologise, feel free to post me the link to the forum post. Just watched the Dust514 trailer, looks pretty darn kool. So far have started running PI with the goal of making 400Mill passive income a month, which by all accounts looks pretty attainable even in High sec once have all the relevant skills trained (Only running 4 planets with limited command centre upgrade atmo). This kind of makes PI a PLEX ticket for me. My question is this, and I suspect I know the answer, is Dust514 going to change this completely? No more PLEX ticket? Up until now, colonies as far as I can tell have been completely safe bar from putting them in lowsec space where nasty mean pirates can cause you grief. If DustMercs can come in and while im offline take out my colonies, will have to think of a new strategy. Its not the end of the world, and perhaps its one of the dynamics of the game CCP particularly wanted to change. So yeah, was just wondering if anyone has any information or views on this? Or perhaps I have misunderstood. I have only been playing about 5 weeks, so im still a nooblet, be nice! Thanks in advance.
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate 542	Posted - 2012.01.27 09:17:00 - [2] - Quote Dust mercs will be conquering planets in lawles space so i think high sec is secure for now. It will focus in Null and Low sec
Grey Azorria Federation Industries 24	Posted - 2012.01.27 09:59:00 - [3] - Quote Although I think PI will get a bit of an overhaul in the process Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 292	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:03:00 - [4] - Quote I have tried to pay attention, but I have not heard CCP explicitly state that PI production will be involved in DUST warfare. Lots of player rumormongers on the subject, though. I have heard about DUST battles supposedly taking days fighting over territory. Would seem rather odd to spend so much time to fight over a dot I can dismantle and replace at another location with practically no cost. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á
Jafit McJafitson Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 209	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:07:00 - [5] - Quote Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Dust mercs will be conquering planets in lawles space so i think high sec is secure for now. It will focus in Null and Low sec Good. We wouldn't want anything threatening to impede highsec players' income now would we.
Grumpy Owly Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 120	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:12:00 - [6] - Quote Jafit McJafitson wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Dust mercs will be conquering planets in lawles space so i think high sec is secure for now. It will focus in Null and Low sec Good. We wouldn't want anything threatening to impede highsec players' income now would we. Unlike the now existant equivalently exhoberant tax changes paid exclusively to the NPCs, applied as a result of Crucible? "All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems."
Serge Bastana GWA Corp 49	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:20:00 - [7] - Quote Grumpy Owly wrote: Jafit McJafitson wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Dust mercs will be conquering planets in lawles space so i think high sec is secure for now. It will focus in Null and Low sec Good. We wouldn't want anything threatening to impede highsec players' income now would we. Unlike the now existant equivalently exhoberant tax changes paid exclusively to the NPCs, applied as a result of Crucible? Don't forget the 11% tax that NPC corps charge on mission rewards and bounties that pays for Scotty the Docking Manager's villa by the beach now that he's retired. He has expensive tastes does our lad Scotty.
Jafit McJafitson Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 209	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:21:00 - [8] - Quote Grumpy Owly wrote: Jafit McJafitson wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Dust mercs will be conquering planets in lawles space so i think high sec is secure for now. It will focus in Null and Low sec Good. We wouldn't want anything threatening to impede highsec players' income now would we. Unlike the now existant equivalently exhoberant tax changes paid exclusively to the NPCs, applied as a result of Crucible? Oh no, now I have to pay tax on my risk-free money!
Grumpy Owly Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 121	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:24:00 - [9] - Quote Well these are specific taxes linked to the extraction of High sec AI, based upon their tier, at Custom offices not the other increased change in value of NPC corporation taxes. "All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems."
Grumpy Owly Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 121	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:26:00 - [10] - Quote Jafit McJafitson wrote: Grumpy Owly wrote: Jafit McJafitson wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Dust mercs will be conquering planets in lawles space so i think high sec is secure for now. It will focus in Null and Low sec Good. We wouldn't want anything threatening to impede highsec players' income now would we. Unlike the now existant equivalently exhoberant tax changes paid exclusively to the NPCs, applied as a result of Crucible? Oh no, now I have to pay tax on my risk-free money! Just saying that your point is invalid as usual. And as a result of those changes affords yet another income stream for areas other than High sec. "All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems."
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate 542	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:29:00 - [11] - Quote Jafit McJafitson wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Dust mercs will be conquering planets in lawles space so i think high sec is secure for now. It will focus in Null and Low sec Good. We wouldn't want anything threatening to impede highsec players' income now would we. I wouldnt have a problem with that
Baneken Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate 74	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:42:00 - [12] - Quote Jowen Datloran wrote: I have tried to pay attention, but I have not heard CCP explicitly state that PI production will be involved in DUST warfare. Lots of player rumormongers on the subject, though. I have heard about DUST battles supposedly taking days fighting over territory. Would seem rather odd to spend so much time to fight over a dot I can dismantle and replace at another location with practically no cost. Depends on your "practically no losses" since a proper PI farm costs some 20mil ISK per planet and you have to move all the stuff you just made to somewhere else which costs you gain 20mils. So each DUST attack per planet nets you in 40mil losses + extra trouble of not getting your industrial ganekd while doing it. Those costs could possibly accumulate very fast if you have several alts on same planets but I still doubt if it would be enough to give a damn about planets in null sec, unless they tie it to sov in some meaningful manner.
Lyrka Bloodberry Spybeaver 62	Posted - 2012.01.27 11:45:00 - [13] - Quote Jafit McJafitson wrote: Grumpy Owly wrote: Jafit McJafitson wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Dust mercs will be conquering planets in lawles space so i think high sec is secure for now. It will focus in Null and Low sec Good. We wouldn't want anything threatening to impede highsec players' income now would we. Unlike the now existant equivalently exhoberant tax changes paid exclusively to the NPCs, applied as a result of Crucible? Oh no, now I have to pay tax on my risk-free money! Here's a tissue. Dry your tears and blow your nose. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BMAXwwTj6ss/Tk1Xe0jJQYI/AAAAAAAAAIE/gODOSlfx4BY/s1600/used+tissue+plush+mypapercrane.jpg 0.0 tears = best tears Spybeaver
Jafit McJafitson Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 210	Posted - 2012.01.27 12:23:00 - [14] - Quote Grumpy Owly wrote: Just saying that your point is invalid as usual. And as a result of those changes affords yet another income stream for areas other than High sec. Highsec PI player posts a thread worrying that his highsec planets may be affected by actions in Dust, he is worrying about other players impeding his income (to impede means to delay or prevent, words are hard). You say that taxes were added, which has nothing to do with preventing or delaying someone's income, only diminishing it. You then seem to have come to the conclusion that you've somehow won argument. My post was to express contempt for highsec's lazy sense of entitlement to having risk free income. The basis of that, I suppose, would be that i think player assets and progress should be effected by the actions of other players and that there shouldn't be untouchable sources of income anywhere in the game.
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate 543	Posted - 2012.01.27 14:45:00 - [15] - Quote Jafit McJafitson wrote: Grumpy Owly wrote: Just saying that your point is invalid as usual. And as a result of those changes affords yet another income stream for areas other than High sec. Highsec PI player posts a thread worrying that his highsec planets may be affected by actions in Dust, he is worrying about other players impeding his income (to impede means to delay or prevent, words are hard). You say that taxes were added, which has nothing to do with preventing or delaying someone's income, only diminishing it. You then seem to have come to the conclusion that you've somehow won argument. My post was to express contempt for highsec's lazy sense of entitlement to having risk free income. The basis of that, I suppose, would be that i think player assets and progress should be effected by the actions of other players and that there shouldn't be untouchable sources of income anywhere in the game. Moon goo
Jafit McJafitson Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 212	Posted - 2012.01.27 15:10:00 - [16] - Quote Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Moon goo Moon harvesting is only possible in lowsec and nullsec where POSes can be attacked and destroyed. This is why I'm glad Highsec doesn't produce CSM candidates, the gaps in their knowledge about the game is frightening.
Bane Loppknow Pel Industries 39	Posted - 2012.01.27 15:57:00 - [17] - Quote I would imagine high-sec PI installations would be protected by the same conventions that protect your ship. That is to say, they can attack, but you'll have some sort of defense discouraging it... until they declare war.
Grumpy Owly Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 125	Posted - 2012.01.27 16:26:00 - [18] - Quote PI Dev announcement ages ago. The planets themselves are controlled in terms of import/export by CONCORD and the associated rights attributable to the empire holders. For which the situation has overall been made doubley worse for High sec players in the case of imports and exports. The change dissallows possible income generations that say other areas of space can use as an extra method. As such the changes have allready impeded high sec player income from PI and potentially allowed a further profiteering opportunity for any landlord in other regeons. What you also fail to realise is that this change has made it potentially much more harder for anyone in high sec to compete equivalently with any industrial production utilising PI or equally fueling of POSs on an equal footing as the associated overheads are intrinsically designed here that other areas in high sec will potentially have to pay more for, in this sense high sec will struggle to compete as on an equivalent basis as a result. So sit back in your nice safe Goon pockets and capatalise on the further designs to encourage ISK into your pockets. As such to say that the the income hasn't been impeded when it ALREADY has and at the same time removes the income generating possibilites makes your statement INVALID. Whilst allowing others to potentially capatalise further from their control of space. Especially when you consider the number of players with their alts effectively using these facilities and the amounts of isk involved. When Dust arrives I'll similarly leave CCP to rebalance the risk/reward equation as appropriatley as they like. Or maybe as others like yourselves will simply continue to drive all useful isk generators as an aspect for null sec only in the hope you will change the environment to your favour? However, if the High sec (NPC) landlords cant keep sensible maintentance and control over their planets, then you could argue wether the appropriate payment or taxation for those services is in fact equally fair. Although it would be interesting to see just how much of an overhead it would be for opposition to occurs. Or maybe Concord and the empires will similarly just enable ships from space to freely blast away at their communities and citizens as they see fit? How daft would that be? Especially in High sec where they actively police these issues. And with out seeing the changes to War situations could make it complicated as to how you prevent orbital strikes from NPC affiliated individuals. Or the fact they wouldn't take measures to stop these waring corporations. Oh no the entire universe needs a self-propelled orientation where everything needs to be in conflict with something else for anything to actually happen according to your philisophy and nothing should be promoted as civilised. Oh no the entrire universe should be burning. Either way I'm kind of hoping that CCP will adjudge a sensible balance to this complicated process. But I'm sure you'll get yet another nerf applied that will move the ISK generating balance of power in favour of null overall. "All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems."
Grumpy Owly Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 125	Posted - 2012.01.27 16:29:00 - [19] - Quote To be honest Jafit, it is idiots like you with this must apply nerfhammer to high sec features whilst ensuring you have all the toys, best isk generators and control that in fact continuing to propogate the idea of how selfish and self obessed you are. It is a very ugly picture you are painting. But for me I simply pity the hate injected campaigns by certain organisations and the ongoing MetaWin approach you stand for. Just a shame you see as so important to use CCP as the methods to suplement your efforts. But I'm personally sick to the stomach with all the whining baby Goonies: Please CCP we can't use tactics or stratergy and diplomacy to solve the super cap fleet problem that we allowed on an equal footing in a Sandbox game can you nerf it for us? Please CCP don't allow high sec to have a valid bounty system that would empower them to strike back at our Hulkageddon campaign or other attacks of soft industrials, we like our inequality here to effect other areas. Whilst using this risk aversion tactics in the existing mechanics. Wonder why the bounty system has remained on the shelf for so long? Or why they tried to propose to have 10% - 20% of insurance paid to the ganker? Please CCP incursions in high sec allows them to have money even though we have a higher and better version we can use in our Sov space. Please CCP can we remove the possibility of others capatalising from moon tech, oh but were keeping the money and the assests we generated from it btw, is that ok EvE community? And we don't want to nerf it completely we just want to reduce it a bit as we like our amassed greater number still. Which in essence supposedly applies a territorial advantage, something the goonies havent amassed a nice slice for themselves of course. Please CCP can we add extra steps into the CSM voting process to make it harder for anyone else to get voted on to have an effective voice in this arena. Please CCP don't allow miners to have a more effective position in game, it only goes against our warring stratergy of Hulkageddon. And supposed none use of mining as the C&P channel would have us believe. Please CCP let us move more of our larger null sec capitals into WH space, we dont like the idea that they might get a small powerbase. Interestingly although no owner can be identified: From the CSM minutes, "One CSM stated a point in favor of removing learning implants, as that would be a nerf to highsec income, and he is always in favor of those where possible." Otherwise I would simply encourage people to actually read the CSM minutes if you havent already to see how null orientated they are for themselves, theres even an AOB section in one area, where literally all the points seems to be focussing on null sec interests: http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2011/CSM_CCP_Mettings_7-9_12_2011.pdf "All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems."
Plyn Random Jedi Industries KRYSIS. 16	Posted - 2012.01.27 17:07:00 - [20] - Quote Wow, Grumpy. You've lumped null players all into one large generalization just as effectively as your friend has lumped all of highsec into another. Personal attacks and everything. You are obviously upset that the CSM represents null, but that's who was elected. Sure the goons have an advantage in ensuring they get a couple of seats because of their bloat, but that same advantage COULD be owned by Eve University. IMHO I think there should be at least 1 highsec CSM rep, as that group should be represented. Unfortunately I doubt CCP would release the nerd-rage fist fight vids from the battles at CSM summits. NPC Corp taxes aren't there to nerf highsec in favor of low/null, they're there because otherwise there'd be no point in anyone in highsec ever joining a corp. If highsec POCO's didn't have a decent tax on them, there'd be no incentive for players to go through the incredible logistical hassle of transporting PI goods across null/low. Further, not all of null are the jerks you claim us to be. I'd personally LOVE to see the bounty system fixed. I also feel that there should be an additional payoff for the MEGA HASSLE involved in controlling sov. Organizing alliances, CTA's, asset management, roaming neut gangs, titan-bridging reds, the whole gamete. Is it unreasonable for players to expect higher effort, higher risk activities to produce higher returns? If this weren't the case then nobody would ever take the higher risk/higher effort path because it'd be a waste of one's time. Most of the null population has absolutely no problem with highsec being a place where players can generate legitimate, steady income. I know a lot of null players who have highsec alts as their primary means of funding their operations. Some of us just feel like it's backwards to believe that the lower risk, lower hassle end of the spectrum should generate equal or greater returns. Come2Nullsec
Grumpy Owly Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 125	Posted - 2012.01.27 17:16:00 - [21] - Quote Nah, please dont get me wrong, I really don't have any beef with the majority of nullsec on this at all. This is as was indicated if you read back purely a focus on the Goons and the way they behave in their meta politics and what they stand for. I have no real problem with the risk/reward model as I tried to indicate. But i wont have the considerations afforded into the systems attempted to be nullified with such an unreasonable perspective. EvE is a sandbox sure that should be balanced etc. But these idiots take the exploitation of gaming systems to a different level. The comments I made here I repeat is something I notice specifically about the Goons, just to be clear, as I don't want to isolate players when its undeserved. "All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems."
Tetsuya Tsyung Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.01.27 17:49:00 - [22] - Quote Jafit McJafitson wrote: Grumpy Owly wrote: Just saying that your point is invalid as usual. And as a result of those changes affords yet another income stream for areas other than High sec. Highsec PI player posts a thread worrying that his highsec planets may be affected by actions in Dust, he is worrying about other players impeding his income (to impede means to delay or prevent, words are hard). You say that taxes were added, which has nothing to do with preventing or delaying someone's income, only diminishing it. You then seem to have come to the conclusion that you've somehow won argument. My post was to express contempt for highsec's lazy sense of entitlement to having risk free income. The basis of that, I suppose, would be that i think player assets and progress should be effected by the actions of other players and that there shouldn't be untouchable sources of income anywhere in the game. Yes, youre right, as a new player with now money behind me, limited gametime experience, relatively poor kit and ships and low skills I should leave the confines of highsec and risk all in lowsec space because making easy ISK is obviously beneath you. And I would also like to add I did not at any point complain or express 'worry' about this, I was curious as to the implications (not worry, words are hard) of the changes and how to adapt while I am still learning the game. Thanks to everyones constructive comments, much appreciated :-)
Jafit McJafitson Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 216	Posted - 2012.01.27 19:23:00 - [23] - Quote Me: I think that reward should be proportional to risk, and that nothing in the game should be beyond the influence of other players in this multiplayer game. Grumpy Owly: Horribly formatted and rambling 1041 word rant containing: Complaints about having to pay taxes for PI in exchange for living in perfect safety. Gives roleplay reasons for why CONCORD wouldn't allow Dust mercenaries on highsec planets. Thinks that the CSM is a shadowy Goon illuminati controlling CCP to make it so they can personally win Eve. My response is as follows: I disagree. Tetsuya Tsyung wrote: Yes, youre right, as a new player with now money behind me, limited gametime experience, relatively poor kit and ships and low skills I should leave the confines of highsec and risk all in lowsec space because making easy ISK is obviously beneath you. Exactly, why would you take the risk and go to low-sec when you can make tons of money in highsec? That's one of the problems with this game, the rewards for your efforts aren't proportional to the risk you are exposed to, and so we have 80% of the players crowded together in 25% of the starsystems in the game. It's pretty dumb that 75% of the game universe is mostly deserted. Then people come to the forums to whine about how hard their zero-risk life is, and how they're not making enough money so they can barely afford to plex all of their accounts. Meanwhile people in nullsec live with daily risk and loss. As a relatively new player I can understand your concerns, and I apologise for lumping you in with the whining publords that make this forum such a painful experience for me. Just remember that there is more to the game than highsec, don't hold yourself back from experiencing it by thinking that you're not ready to make a change. It's never too early. http://eveswarm.com/2011/12/interview-with-'day-old'-hero-drinker/ Just try not to join a terrible alliance. Some are better to be in than others.
Tetsuya Tsyung Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.01.27 23:49:00 - [24] - Quote I can see entirely what you are saying to be honest. I apologise if I was a tad on the sarcastic/rude side. My plan is entirely to explore the more remote aspects of the game, to risk the lowsec space for the rewards. But for the time being im not ashamed to admit to a highsec carebare lifestyle! For the time being, my ISK seems best invested in highsec PI where it is making nice easy returns. Once the financial backing is there a little, I dont understand why someone would not want to explore incursions, nullsec PI, faction warfare and whatever else I still have no idea about. My basic concern was spending all of my earnt cash so far on something that could be lost fairly soon. If it is, well thats the game, but id opt for safe investment right now, and so far, id still say hisec PI will be a good bet for a while for me even after Dust launch.
Zirse Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 223	Posted - 2012.01.28 00:02:00 - [25] - Quote Let's see: In nullsec, you can pay a sunk cost of ~70M isk and pay no taxes; of course your 70M isk investment is vulnerable to attack at any time. Or, in highsec the income is taxed but is risk free. Grumpy Owl, how is that exorbitant? You claim to not be against a risk/reward scale but your opinions speak otherwise.
Jas Dor Republic University Minmatar Republic 32	Posted - 2012.01.28 01:05:00 - [26] - Quote Jafit McJafitson wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Dust mercs will be conquering planets in lawles space so i think high sec is secure for now. It will focus in Null and Low sec Good. We wouldn't want anything threatening to impede highsec players' income now would we. Do you really want to see what happens to the EVE economy if POS fuel triples in price? I suspect that will hurt null more than it will hurt high.
Jas Dor Republic University Minmatar Republic 32	Posted - 2012.01.28 01:14:00 - [27] - Quote Jafit McJafitson wrote: Grumpy Owly wrote: Just saying that your point is invalid as usual. And as a result of those changes affords yet another income stream for areas other than High sec. Highsec PI player posts a thread worrying that his highsec planets may be affected by actions in Dust, he is worrying about other players impeding his income (to impede means to delay or prevent, words are hard). You say that taxes were added, which has nothing to do with preventing or delaying someone's income, only diminishing it. You then seem to have come to the conclusion that you've somehow won argument. My post was to express contempt for highsec's lazy sense of entitlement to having risk free income. The basis of that, I suppose, would be that i think player assets and progress should be effected by the actions of other players and that there shouldn't be untouchable sources of income anywhere in the game. Funny I have absolute contempt for 0.0's market risk free passive income from moon goo. A guy doing PI in empire still has to sell his goods on the free market. On the other hand 0.0 gets a cut of every T2 item sold on the market through cartelled moon goo. Seems to me that the guy in high sec is dealing with a hell of a lot more market risk than your moon goo empires are.
Jafit McJafitson Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 223	Posted - 2012.01.28 03:03:00 - [28] - Quote Jas Dor wrote: Funny I have absolute contempt for 0.0's market risk free passive income from moon goo. A guy doing PI in empire still has to sell his goods on the free market. On the other hand 0.0 gets a cut of every T2 item sold on the market through cartelled moon goo. Seems to me that the guy in high sec is dealing with a hell of a lot more market risk than your moon goo empires are. You do seem to be adopting an extreme 'us vs them' mentality if you think that all of nullsec is a big cartel of techmoon kings. There's about to be a massive war in the north (that's where most of the tech moons are if you didn't know) so the control of tech moons is certainly not a cartel. Also to state that moon harvesting is risk free when it relies on POSes that can be attacked, most of which are in a soon-to-be warzone full of titans is just ridiculous. There's no such thing as 'risk-free' in nullsec. Secondly the CSM (full of representatives from Tech holding alliances) specifically asked CCP to address the technetium bottleneck in T2 production. What more do you want?
2bhammered Perkone Caldari State 10	Posted - 2012.01.28 03:12:00 - [29] - Quote I have the feeling dust will do more harm than good to EvE Online. Jump ship before dust release or after, that is the question, in regards to when you will get the most ISK out of your characters.

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