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Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.01 19:23:00 - [1] Ok guys... Disclaimer: This is 100% my opinion and does not reflect the future plans of EBANK nor the opinions of the EBANK Board of Directors. The exchanges need an overhaul. Arguements: 1.) Depending on brokers leads to bottlenecks and paralysis (EGSEx). 2.) Trading shares in-game leaves no trail, isn't supported by contracts, and requires brokers. (RSEX)(also see point #1) Assumptions: 1.) CCP will quite likely not improve share functionality in the near or far future. 2.) The stock exchanges would be more active if trades could be completed much more quickly. Conclusion: Shares should become virtualized. Take them out of the game entirely. A third party site could act as a proxy (holding all shares, akin to deposits) and credit each account with dividends while reflecting what shares they have. Exchanges could be logged, transactions automated, and in general the secondary market for shares and bonds would be boosted. Commentary: I'm not saying RSEX or EGSE suck, far from it, they've done a superb job so far and I'm a big fan of both personally. This is simply my opinion on where the secondary markets (exchanges) need to be. Could they adapt to this model? I think so, absolutely! Should they? That's up to them entirely. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.01 19:30:00 - [2] It would take a very very very trusted person to host such a site. That is my biggest issue with it. It sounds like a decent enough idea... but I don't know if I would use it or not. I really like keeping as much stuff in game as possible as CCP will not intervene on stuff occurring outside the client. BTW, have you petitioned this to make sure CCP wouldn't have any issues with it? Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.01 19:37:00 - [3] Originally by: Shadarle It would take a very very very trusted person to host such a site. That is my biggest issue with it. It sounds like a decent enough idea... but I don't know if I would use it or not. I really like keeping as much stuff in game as possible as CCP will not intervene on stuff occurring outside the client. BTW, have you petitioned this to make sure CCP wouldn't have any issues with it? No, I haven't since this is purely just an opinion and not a plan for implementation (see my disclaimer) however... To my knowledge, there is absolutely nothing presented here that comes close to a EULA breach that I'm aware of. If there is a section that you think is nudging a line in that regard, by all means let me know. To your point about CCP intervention, I would present a counter-point that they don't do that much now either. For example; if you transfer shares to the wrong person (you type the name wrong let's say) CCP will not "fix" the issue. And lastly, and yes...most importantly...it would take a trusted person. I implied here that the current exchanges could adopt this model since they seem to be trusted enough right now, but that might be debated perhaps. I'll admit that when we start talking about virtualizing a few IPO's we may very quickly cross the 100 billion isk line. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Drethon Gallente Lutin Group	Posted - 2007.11.01 19:41:00 - [4] I was only a CEO for a short while and never really got into shares so I'm probably wrong about this but... Isn't distributing shares a fairly automated system? If shares were virtualized they would have to distributed manually. Wouldn't this annoy many CEOs? "I may not believe in what you believe in but I will fight to the death to protect your right to believe."
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.01 19:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Drethon I was only a CEO for a short while and never really got into shares so I'm probably wrong about this but... Isn't distributing shares a fairly automated system? If shares were virtualized they would have to distributed manually. Wouldn't this annoy many CEOs? This is specific to secondary markets for Shares (stock exchanges). Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.01 19:48:00 - [6] I fully support this. But again. Trust WILL be an issue. And for now, i dont think evebank or any entity can handle this burden. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:01:00 - [7] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/11/2007 20:01:38 A solution to the trust issue, perhaps: have shares actually be physical data that is signed by multiple keyservers, run by different people, which all have to agree for a share to be determined to be real. Perhaps for example there can be 4 keyservers, two of which are duplicates of the other two; this means there's both redundancy, and security (you'd have to convince two of the keyservers to fake a share). Shares with very small values could be traded in batches of 100 or 1000 to avoid having to transfer too much data. The signing would likely be RSA or similar. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated)
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/11/2007 20:01:38 A solution to the trust issue, perhaps: have shares actually be physical data that is signed by multiple keyservers, run by different people, which all have to agree for a share to be determined to be real. Perhaps for example there can be 4 keyservers, two of which are duplicates of the other two; this means there's both redundancy, and security (you'd have to convince two of the keyservers to fake a share). Shares with very small values could be traded in batches of 100 or 1000 to avoid having to transfer too much data. The signing would likely be RSA or similar. Synchronizing the data would be a monster of a project, but I do agree that this could possibly address the trust issue. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:54:00 - [9] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/11/2007 20:57:07 Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Dark Shikari A solution to the trust issue, perhaps: have shares actually be physical data that is signed by multiple keyservers, run by different people, which all have to agree for a share to be determined to be real. Perhaps for example there can be 4 keyservers, two of which are duplicates of the other two; this means there's both redundancy, and security (you'd have to convince two of the keyservers to fake a share). Shares with very small values could be traded in batches of 100 or 1000 to avoid having to transfer too much data. The signing would likely be RSA or similar. Synchronizing the data would be a monster of a project, but I do agree that this could possibly address the trust issue. Here's the idea in more detail: 1. I am creating a new IPO. It will have 100,000 shares at 100k ISK each. 2. Each share is a data packet containing basic data such as the IPO name, etc. They are all unique; each one has a different number in it (1, 2, 3, all the way to the max, to ensure each data packet is unique). 3. When I make the shares through the IPO system, these packets are signed by two of the four authentication servers (two different ones, that is). They are then sent back to me. 4. I now own the 100k shares, and they are "real." They can now be traded on any exchange. If they need to be authenticated, one does not even need to communicate with the authentication server--one simply uses their public key to check the signature! No communication with the authentication servers is needed ever again! The only way to "duplicate" shares at this point would be to copy the data files themselves, which would create shares with duplicate numbers, which is probably easier to detect. (There must be an even better way to do this sort of thing) 23 Member EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated)
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:01:00 - [10] I'm impressed =) I'll think about this, it's more clear now that you laid it out in detail. I'll add to your proposal once I have time to consider it some more, but I like where it's heading. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Banni Vinda The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:26:00 - [11] How does one enforce/establish ownership? Imagine you send me a share (data file), and I send it on to a 3rd person. Since all three of us have copies of the file, who owns the share? Surely this has to be enforced on an authentication server? The question then becomes which authentication server has the definitive record? Or am I missing a step somewhere?
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:47:00 - [12] Originally by: Banni Vinda How does one enforce/establish ownership? Imagine you send me a share (data file), and I send it on to a 3rd person. Since all three of us have copies of the file, who owns the share? Surely this has to be enforced on an authentication server? The question then becomes which authentication server has the definitive record? Or am I missing a step somewhere? I think this just prevents "duplicate" shares. You'd basically be "ceritfying" that each share is authnetic based on it's signature under DS's scheme. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Fenderson Finite Horizon Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:01:00 - [13] if a system like this could be set up and secured to the point where people were really confident in it, it would certainly encourage alot more people to participate in the eve stock exchange.
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:07:00 - [14] The incredibly crappy E-Mail program called Lotus Notes has a rather interesting way to authenticate users. It's via an ID file. The file contains Name, Company, and password. These files can be duplicated all over the place and the password changed. However the server only recognizes the last real authentication. So here is what happens. I login to lotus notes and the server logs the fact I logged in with my password, I then change my password, which the server logs as well. If the original owner of the ID tries to login with the old password which is on the ID file the server responds saying "You have a different password on another ID file with the same user. To access the server please change this ID file's password." When you try and change the password it asks for your current password. If you don't know it you can't change that ID's password. You could use a similar system for physical files of virtual shares. The CEO generates 100 shares with a password. Each share has that password and an identifier which the exchange knows. The buyer registers the shares and changes the password. In which the exchange now knows the current password to all the share files. To sell some shares, I change the password to say 10 says, in which the exchange servers know the new password for those shares and I sell them to the buyer. He accepts them and changes the password at the same time (via the exchange) Problem solved. If you can only transfer the share via the exchange just have password changes logged in there as well. As stupid and complex as it sounds the only way you can claim ownership of the notes ID file (Shares) is if you know the previously registered password. It stops people dead in their tracks. Amarr for Life
Apple Blossom	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Hexxx in general the secondary market for shares and bonds would be boosted. The biggest problem I see is with this sentiment. Moving shares to a completely out of game system is only going to reduce the number of active investors not boost it. The average Eve-Joe doesn't care about automated transactions, logging and public keys. He sees his 'Shares' tab in his wallet and he expects something to appear there after he gives his money away. Any system where that doesn't happen is going to put off a lot of people. Don't get me wrong. I would use a well designed and trustworthy out-of-game exchange, and maybe most of the people in Market Discussions would, but I think you will have a huge problem convincing the rest of the player-base. The danger is then that you end up with the same clubby, stagnant market as we have now, just with extra infrastructure to maintain. And then what happens when the guy who runs the exchange site gets bored and leaves Eve, or the coder looses interest? Again, I love the plan and I genuinely hope it can be made to work, but I think your biggest problem will be promotion and PR not technical. Apple
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:04:00 - [16] My only issue with this is that, it being a proprietary out of game solution, it probably won't see any kind of mass adoption outside of Market Forum regulars. It will maybe over time but it will be slow moving. What really need is for CCP to up the ante here and actually give us real tools to conduct business. In the absence of that, though, I guess this is the best option we have.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Benvie My only issue with this is that, it being a proprietary out of game solution, it probably won't see any kind of mass adoption outside of Market Forum regulars. It will maybe over time but it will be slow moving. What really need is for CCP to up the ante here and actually give us real tools to conduct business. In the absence of that, though, I guess this is the best option we have. I agree. I also agree with the previous poster. I see this being used far less than the forums are now and it will not attract many new users at all. I really think the only way to really move forward in a significant way is to push for CCP to do something for us. Perhaps if someone designed some interface examples, wrote up an idea of how it would fit in game, the features you'd like to see, etc it would probably help CCP to start moving forward. And don't look at me to do it, others are for more interested in fostering this aspect of the game than I am. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:37:00 - [18] Originally by: SencneS (snip) To sell some shares, I change the password to say 10 says, in which the exchange servers know the new password for those shares and I sell them to the buyer. He accepts them and changes the password at the same time (via the exchange) If there's going to be server which is going to verify the validity and ownership of share files, what do you need the files for? Since the server is tracking everything already, the circulation of files is only cumbersome and error-prone. ________________ Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog Feature request: Share transfer log
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Benvie My only issue with this is that, it being a proprietary out of game solution, it probably won't see any kind of mass adoption outside of Market Forum regulars. It will maybe over time but it will be slow moving. What really need is for CCP to up the ante here and actually give us real tools to conduct business. In the absence of that, though, I guess this is the best option we have. I agree. I also agree with the previous poster. I see this being used far less than the forums are now and it will not attract many new users at all. I really think the only way to really move forward in a significant way is to push for CCP to do something for us. Perhaps if someone designed some interface examples, wrote up an idea of how it would fit in game, the features you'd like to see, etc it would probably help CCP to start moving forward. And don't look at me to do it, others are for more interested in fostering this aspect of the game than I am. I agree here. I think if we, as a community, put effort into getting CCP to implement the tools we need we'd be much better off. Creating something like this would take a lot of work, and if we channeled all that effort into coming up with a model for CCP to implement, it would be much better.
Ionia Advanced Manufacturing	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:49:00 - [20] Very interesting Hexxx Virtualization would have great benefits but a few drawbacks too. This is certainly an interesting project. I guess RESX is already a system like this in some ways. The major issue I see is the distribution of dividends.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Banni Vinda How does one enforce/establish ownership? Imagine you send me a share (data file), and I send it on to a 3rd person. Since all three of us have copies of the file, who owns the share? Surely this has to be enforced on an authentication server? The question then becomes which authentication server has the definitive record? Or am I missing a step somewhere? I think this just prevents "duplicate" shares. You'd basically be "ceritfying" that each share is authnetic based on it's signature under DS's scheme. Just work ownership into the key. Every time a share is transfered it would get regenerated by the servers. Like say Person A creates an IPO like DS said above. Then when they want to transfer shares to Person B they request new certificates from the auth servers with Person B as the owner instead of themselves. Then they just transfer the data to the person. It's better then Quafe!
Firid Soulbane Empyreum Lux Caelestia	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:36:00 - [22] So whats stopping CCP from creating an ingame stock exchange? I mean even the most basic one would be a big improvement. Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer Saltire - I can understand one accidental podkilling, even two, but twelve....?
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:46:00 - [23] Originally by: Firid Soulbane So whats stopping CCP from creating an ingame stock exchange? I mean even the most basic one would be a big improvement. Laziness. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Matthew Munro Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Dr Slurm Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Banni Vinda How does one enforce/establish ownership? Imagine you send me a share (data file), and I send it on to a 3rd person. Since all three of us have copies of the file, who owns the share? Surely this has to be enforced on an authentication server? The question then becomes which authentication server has the definitive record? Or am I missing a step somewhere? I think this just prevents "duplicate" shares. You'd basically be "ceritfying" that each share is authnetic based on it's signature under DS's scheme. Just work ownership into the key. Every time a share is transfered it would get regenerated by the servers. Like say Person A creates an IPO like DS said above. Then when they want to transfer shares to Person B they request new certificates from the auth servers with Person B as the owner instead of themselves. Then they just transfer the data to the person. OK but if A sells Shares to B, and B gets newly signed Shares, A's will still appear valid as it is still signed by an accepted key. You could add time of purchase to it, but A's shares would still appear valid if they wanted to scam someone. You'd need to setup CA with revocation lists, and people would have to check them, very messy. Also overly complicated. It'd be best IMO to do it like RESX does it, just information in a DB, I have a few ideas on how to ensure trust, which would involve having audit servers held by other trusted people. I have details in my head and I might note them down later on the whiteboard. Personally I think it should be CCP doing this, however if they wont then someone should.
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:23:00 - [25] I have to agree with what seems to be the general sentiment here, we're not going to get the stock market to be a big area of the game without an in-game overhaul. I can certainly see the advantages of a broker-less system but I don't think it's worth persuing right now. Also, how would dividends work in such a system? Each company would either have to pay out individually to every shareholder by corp account transfer or the company would have to transfer the entire dividend payment to some sort of broker who would then transfer the money to all the shareholders. Either way is a pain in the ass for someone.
Alain DeMorgan	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:29:00 - [26] Edited by: Alain DeMorgan on 02/11/2007 08:29:50 This is basically the "reserve bank" simultaneous-exchange-of-securities settlement model. (Using the jargon of my previous life writing bank software.. the pain, the pain..). The RB holds share registry info and isk accounts for all involved parties. To transfer shares, both parties submit order details to the RB ("A buys 10 shares of corp X from B for 10,000 isk") The RB matches the orders and executes an atomic swap of isk-for-shares in the relevant registries / accounts If the order can't be satisfied (insufficient isk / shares) or the order details don't match they stay outstanding for some period of time then expire. (In RL, towards the end of the business day the settlements departments start looking at the lists of their own unmatched transactions being fed back from the RB and start chasing the counterparty of the transaction to make sure they've entered it and have the same details) Dividend payments are made by transferring isk from the payer's account directly to the relevant shareholders' accounts directly. The RB has the share ownership data to do this split automatically, all it needs to know is that there's 200M isk in corp X's account that is to be distributed as a dividend payment to shareholders. If you do not have an account with the RB then you get someone to act as a broker for you. In RL usually only banks and large financial institutions maintain RB accounts directly, and they hold their client's funds / securities in trust there. Don't see any reason not to have everyone directly hold accounts in this case though. It does require trust in the RB! Mostly to keep the registry info accurate and not lose data on you (losing all your corp share ownership data would be .. painful ..) or forge transactions. I'd suggest a system where the RB continuously exports transaction logs to the relevant parties .. so for example a corp could keep a complete audit trail of transactions on their shares as they happen. It's both a disaster recovery strategy and an attempt to keep the RB somewhat honest. Note that the RB does not actually have to hold all that much isk at any one point. The minimum they need is isk to cover all outstanding trades and dividend payments only. There will be more than that because people aren't going to instantly pull isk out ingame the moment it arrives in their account, but even with that in mind the RB should only be holding a fraction of the total value of the shares in liquid isk. The creation of a stock exchange can be done as an extra layer on top of this, and could even be done as a separate site if you don't care about open-market share transfers being completely anonymous. All the stock exchange is really about is matching buyers and sellers. Once a match is found, the actual settlement can be done via the normal system. And you'd want the "normal system" available directly anyway for simple exchanges of shares between people who are already in contact with each other. If the stock exchange is a separate system, have a feed into the RB that sets up the matched order pair as soon as a trade is completed, but requires authenticated confirmation from both parties before it actually goes ahead. If you want to go the crypto route I suggest doing some research on cryptographically-secure digital cash systems, there's quite a bit of existing research out there.
Larissa Newport Newport Excavations	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:37:00 - [27] I am quite new to the scene here, but it is obvious to me that CCP has created a corporate structure in their game for the purpose of being used. That it's not perfect is one thing, but removing the actual shares out of the game instead of its supposed value is another. Let me elaborate a bit. I think its quite strange that I can safely trade for example janitors in 3 ways (by contract, the tradewindow or the market), but an important item and aspect for this game, a corporate share, I can trade by trust only. (Give me ISK then you get the shares, or give me shares then I'll send you the ISK afterwards.) So the only major problem with the sharesystem in my opinion is the fact you cannot safely do transactions ingame without having a form of trust. Which makes it quite a risk to obtain shares next to judging if the shares you buy aren't a scam (which will always be an issue and thats the fun thing of being an investor, so we can't and won't ever change that). The only thing that needs to be suggested to CCP is a form of safe transactionsystem for shares as it is fundamental to the way CCP has created the social aspect for this game. It's all about corporations going into space. Having a share with value is a viable measure of success for a player ingame to relate to how wel it is doing in space. It gives a sense of achievement, bonding or personal profit when dealing with that corporation if he can compare it with its competitors or e.g RL friends). (Otherwise they might as well have people organised in bands, or communes, or whatever, without having a share system). We can however use a site as suggested by the op for putting in weekly CEO-reports and only have "the value of the shares" be determined outside the game, and have a meeting point for sharestraders and investors to do business and be kept informed about the shares market. I'd leave the actual shares ingame but the determination of the value of the shares out of the game. By implementing a simple, safe, shares-transaction-system by CCP they have a perfect opportunity to involve the community further in creating a vibrant way to actually value the works of many players by making sure that actual corporate value can be changed hands, compared or even determined in a mature way. Many shares are now not valued or traded just because of transfer issues. CCP misses an opportunity to make their ingame corporate structure more mature and give it the depth it derserves if it does not implement one simple thingy as a safe, simple, transactionsystem of shares. I'm sure CCP will notice that also if we bring it to their attention, will they not? Larissa Newport, CEO, Newport Excavations. Larissa Newport CEO, Newport Excvations -- Newport Excavations trusted bankers are EBANK , the Universal Bank that is within everyone's reach --
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:44:00 - [28] the problem is that ccp doesn't seem to give a **** about this section of the game.
Block Ukx KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:03:00 - [29] Edited by: Block Ukx on 02/11/2007 12:04:13 I think ccp do cares. The problem is 99.99% of eveÆs population probably donÆt care or are unaware of the stock market. Great idea Hexx, but wouldnÆt be easier if ccp simply allowed share sales in game? It's probably trivial for them to implement.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:56:00 - [30] Originally by: Block Ukx Edited by: Block Ukx on 02/11/2007 12:04:13 I think ccp do cares. The problem is 99.99% of eveÆs population probably donÆt care or are unaware of the stock market. Great idea Hexx, but wouldnÆt be easier if ccp simply allowed share sales in game? It's probably trivial for them to implement. See Assumption #1. We've been asking for something...anything...and the best we've gotten is a way to track shareholders. This is great for reporting...but the real meat comes from transactions...secure ones. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.

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