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Aryth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 00:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Hardigeen Edited by: Hardigeen on 08/11/2007 21:20:36 Here you go. Character named Miss Aurora just unloaded 300K of Dysprosium worth more then 10 bil ISK at 35K per unit. Don't buy any, let it sit until the price goes back to the fair value. Again, supply is fine, at least its not worst then the supply of Promethium. Its the market manipulations causing the price to be so unstable. Yeah, because three regions of dys moons going out of production all at the same time for a week+ couldn't have anything to do with it? Someone is probably manipulating yes, but they are getting a huge boost of a huge hit to the total production.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.09 04:32:00 - [32] Quote: Yeah, because three regions of dys moons going out of production all at the same time for a week+ couldn't have anything to do with it? Someone is probably manipulating yes, but they are getting a huge boost of a huge hit to the total production. giggles like a schoolgirl Improve Market Competition!
Hardigeen	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:25:00 - [33] Edited by: Hardigeen on 09/11/2007 05:28:26 Originally by: Aryth Originally by: Hardigeen Edited by: Hardigeen on 08/11/2007 21:20:36 Here you go. Character named Miss Aurora just unloaded 300K of Dysprosium worth more then 10 bil ISK at 35K per unit. Don't buy any, let it sit until the price goes back to the fair value. Again, supply is fine, at least its not worst then the supply of Promethium. Its the market manipulations causing the price to be so unstable. Yeah, because three regions of dys moons going out of production all at the same time for a week+ couldn't have anything to do with it? Someone is probably manipulating yes, but they are getting a huge boost of a huge hit to the total production. Dysprosium price has been manipulated much longer then the recent change in some regions ownership. Another question is how would someone collect 300K (thats 10+ bil in value and 120+ days of moon mining) of Dysprosium to sell if not thru market manipulation?
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:33:00 - [34] Quote: Dysprosium price has been manipulated much longer then the recent change in some regions ownership. Another question is how would someone collect 300K of Dysprosium to sell if not thru market manipulation? Point he's making is the slowdown in supply has made dysprosium easier to manipulate. No doubt this conflict has been going on longer than the dysprosium manipulation, since: A) The conquerers probably don't know the moons they just tore up can yield Dyspro, and arent manipulating them yet since they are still on a war footing. B) The conquerers, if they found out they just cleared a Dyspro moon and want to mine it in the future, definately won't come out and announce it. C) The victims don't want to announce "Hey, we just lost our dyspro moon at x, y and z" VERY BIG point is the supply is not equal to the demand. If you want to compare to Promethium, Promethium IS an equally as rare material, but it's supply is higher because the miners of that material haven't been hit. As soon as the supply/demand pinches available market volume tight enough, it opens the doors to market manipulation till the price stabilises at a level to match the new supply/demand. Refusing to purchase dyspro at this new price is punching yourself in the pocket. Of course the products haven't adjusted in price yet, the products were probably manufactured pre-manipulation, and so there's no need to raise your prices in the face of that. You'll get your profits regardless. When supply is returned by the new conquerers, prices will drop. Till then, you'll have to suck it up. Improve Market Competition!
Hardigeen	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:51:00 - [35] Nope, not going to buy one single unit of Dysprosium at this price. I already switched my Hypersynaptics, Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates towers to react other stuff. I'll let others "suck it up" as you put it. But I see trade volumes are low and price is going down. If indeed this is caused by the speculators they will have to sell current stocks to be able to buy again and thats not going to be easy if there are no buyers. The buy orders didnt follow sell orders so thats a good sign that people are not interested at paying whatever just to continue production.
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.09 09:59:00 - [36] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Refusing to purchase dyspro at this new price is punching yourself in the pocket. Mhhhhh, not really...it's the wise thing to do until A) Dysprosium prices come down again, or B) the materials produced with Dysprosium adjust in price. Until any of those two happens, buying at the new price is a stupid idea. But hey, luckily there's plenty of stupid people in game, so the guy selling 300k at the high price will probably still sell it to people who aren't clever enough to see that they pay close to double the price they'll pay in 3-4 weeks _______________
Aryth GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:06:00 - [37] Originally by: Hardigeen Edited by: Hardigeen on 09/11/2007 05:28:26 Originally by: Aryth Originally by: Hardigeen Edited by: Hardigeen on 08/11/2007 21:20:36 Here you go. Character named Miss Aurora just unloaded 300K of Dysprosium worth more then 10 bil ISK at 35K per unit. Don't buy any, let it sit until the price goes back to the fair value. Again, supply is fine, at least its not worst then the supply of Promethium. Its the market manipulations causing the price to be so unstable. Yeah, because three regions of dys moons going out of production all at the same time for a week+ couldn't have anything to do with it? Someone is probably manipulating yes, but they are getting a huge boost of a huge hit to the total production. Dysprosium price has been manipulated much longer then the recent change in some regions ownership. Another question is how would someone collect 300K (thats 10+ bil in value and 120+ days of moon mining) of Dysprosium to sell if not thru market manipulation? Really, 300k dys is a pretty tiny amount in the grand scheme of things. Let me illustrate. I know of at least 10 that went out of production, so figure the real # is 20 when you add the other major alliances. So 20 moons produce 336k dys in a single week. That is just the regions we are speaking about. These moons were out at least a weeks production, probably closer to 2 overall when you factor in lead times. That is a bare minimum. So imagine 800k dys getting wiped out of the market in one fell swooop. So whoever it is just picked a great time to move their final stock. Until the new owners dump their mins, (which should be this weekend actually) this will continue. This weekend should be the first harvest cycle with nice fat silos. So expect a lot of prom/dys to show up.
Hardigeen	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:49:00 - [38] And Miss Aurora is in action again. His order of more then 200K is the lowest priced in Jita at the moment at 26K ISK per unit, well above what he paid for most of it. He is trying to sell all the stock and will start buying again, as soon as its all sold out. Then due to the fact there will be no Dysprosium available he will start selling again, most likely at over 50K per unit.
Stefan F Enrave Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:10:00 - [39] Hmm seems like a reasonable strategy... If those producers and buyers are too stupid to see what is happening they deserve to loose the money. Tactics like these only work on tight markets where there is not enough production capacity. So instead of all mafunacturers wanting to have the lowest sell order around the low 20k's, they should stick around 30k and wait a few days longer for their stock to sell again. If someone can just buy up all stuff in one place and sell it for more it was just priced too low. So what do you do about it: buyer: seeing a price in the low 20k's buy as much as you can, the item is underpriced! You make ar profit because the real value is a lot higher seller: all your stuff is being bought up, you get quick money. Or be smart and sell for a higher value.
Asith	Posted - 2007.11.21 22:03:00 - [40] Ferrofluid selling for 34 k Dysprosium 33k Hafnium 2.2 K A loss without taking fuel into consideration of 20 million a week CCP FFS SORT IT OUT THIS IS GETTING STUPID
Tres Farmer	Posted - 2007.11.21 23:36:00 - [41] Originally by: Asith CCP FFS SORT IT OUT THIS IS GETTING STUPID I dunno hows about you, but i find it funney
Ad Mela	Posted - 2007.11.22 00:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Asith CCP FFS SORT IT OUT THIS IS GETTING STUPID Now, I may be completely stupid here...but does CCP set the market rates for these things? I know there's a ceiling for certain things due to NPC items (shuttles for trit come to mind), but is there anything like that for moon minerals? If it's player-driven, it's player-driven. CCP can do nothing about it. It's your free market system at work.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.22 03:09:00 - [43] Quote: Ferrofluid selling for 34 k Dysprosium 33k Hafnium 2.2 K A loss without taking fuel into consideration of 20 million a week CCP FFS SORT IT OUT THIS IS GETTING STUPID How about FFS raise your prices? Just because you sell for a certain amount your whole life doesnt mean it's going to stay that way. Improve Market Competition!
Vinya Orcrist	Posted - 2007.11.22 10:06:00 - [44] Edited by: Vinya Orcrist on 22/11/2007 10:07:49 Economics for dummies.. or below: http://www.strom.clemson.edu/becker/prtm320/economics_primer.html
Darth Felin	Posted - 2007.11.22 12:49:00 - [45] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 22/11/2007 03:31:39 Quote: Ferrofluid selling for 34 k Dysprosium 33k Hafnium 2.2 K A loss without taking fuel into consideration of 20 million a week CCP FFS SORT IT OUT THIS IS GETTING STUPID How about FFS raise your prices? Just because you sell for a certain amount your whole life doesnt mean it's going to stay that way. don't sell for a loss. If everyone does it, the bottom rung will get consumed, prices will stabilise at the higher level because people cannot continue to manufacture at the new demand level. And really, if this is a coup by someone to make Ferrofluid prices higher, ask yourself: Are they really going to keep selling at a 'lossy' price while there's plenty of incentive to undercut at the new higher price? Kylar it seems that you are constantly trying to convince people that it is smart to buy at new prices. It seems very likely that it is you or your alt is behind those manipulations.
Achnaton S'Erum	Posted - 2007.11.22 12:54:00 - [46] Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 22/11/2007 03:31:39 Quote: Ferrofluid selling for 34 k Dysprosium 33k Hafnium 2.2 K A loss without taking fuel into consideration of 20 million a week CCP FFS SORT IT OUT THIS IS GETTING STUPID How about FFS raise your prices? Just because you sell for a certain amount your whole life doesnt mean it's going to stay that way. don't sell for a loss. If everyone does it, the bottom rung will get consumed, prices will stabilise at the higher level because people cannot continue to manufacture at the new demand level. And really, if this is a coup by someone to make Ferrofluid prices higher, ask yourself: Are they really going to keep selling at a 'lossy' price while there's plenty of incentive to undercut at the new higher price? Kylar it seems that you are constantly trying to convince people that it is smart to buy at new prices. It seems very likely that it is you or your alt is behind those manipulations. He never said it's 'smart' to buy at the new prices, just that it doesn't matter all that much. Simply recalculate your sell-price and voila.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.22 14:15:00 - [47] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 22/11/2007 14:15:18 Quote: Kylar it seems that you are constantly trying to convince people that it is smart to buy at new prices. It seems very likely that it is you or your alt is behind those manipulations. lol. Please. Do your research, particularly on the big picture which I've got in my sig. If you want to know who is doing the market manipulations, do a search through the Market forums. I run a corporation which manufactures T2 Components. I'll come clean on one thing however, since my shareholders found this out recently, main reason why I'm pushing people to increase their prices is twofold. A. First and foremost, it's simple. Once upon a time, ferrogel was 6000 isk, Phenolic Composites at 400 and Fernite Carbide 70. I could manufacture a thruster at about 8000 and sell for 12000 and that was a huge profit. With current prices, I manufacture the same thing at 14000 and sell at 18000. Not difficult to work out. My business continues fine. B. Believe it or not, it's affecting my business, causing a massive pinch in my profit margin for items which use this stuff. Cutting an incredibly long story short, a ramp up of ferrofluid prices would cause a ramp up in things like ferrogel and my own manufacturing costs. The important part here which you moon miners/reactors who don't go on to make T2 components wouldn't notice is that this would cause a "flush" of the current market and effect a quick stability of prices. Instead, you're all dropping tools like a bunch of girlies. Moreover you're not 100% understanding the logic of the market manipulator at play. You're all stopping production because you dont want to feed him isk. Meh. If I were the market manipulator, ISK would be a secondary satisfaction to the fact I've caused a great deal of the T2 industry to shut down because people weren't smart enough to change their gameplan. For the record, yeah, I mention my business is being affected, and guess what? I made a few strategic choices and it's business as usual. I continue to manufacture products which need ferrofluid and I continue to make profit. The conditions arent ideal, but they're workable. Improve Market Competition!
Hardigeen	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:48:00 - [48] Bottom line is, there is not enough Dysprosium and other high end moon minerals in the game. With Invention, tech 2 production increased 10 folds bringing the prices of tech 2 ships and modules down. With so many people producing tech 2 and with the same number of moons as before Invention it's normal that there is a lack of moon minerals. Add market manipulation on the top of that and you get current situation where its almost impossibile to buy Dysprosium. Price is just insane and it doesn't make sense to produce. CCP is blind to a problem like this, as always. They don't see this problem yet and they might see it at one point in the future and maybe they will decide to seed more Dysprosium moons. Until then, Dysprosium will eat up all the profits for tech 2 producer. It's a stupid situation but then when did CCP react to solve a certain problem in time?
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:04:00 - [49] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 23/11/2007 03:05:19 Quote: Bottom line is, there is not enough Dysprosium and other high end moon minerals in the game. I think it's more complicated than that. When CCP introduced invention, everyone screamed "Yay, CCP has broken the monopoly on T2 equipment". So T2 is now much more accessible. What happened before invention was that there was more than enough moon minerals for T2 production, so much as to create excess. Now that backlog has been eaten up by hungry inventors and other T2 producers. As it balances out, it'll bring T2 prices back up slowly towards the monopoly-day prices. Some may not reach their old prices, but it's the net effect. And to be honest, I don't think that's a big problem. Just because the players drink the well dry doesnt mean CCP has to refill it. Improve Market Competition!
Hardigeen	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:18:00 - [50] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 23/11/2007 03:05:19 Quote: Bottom line is, there is not enough Dysprosium and other high end moon minerals in the game. I think it's more complicated than that. When CCP introduced invention, everyone screamed "Yay, CCP has broken the monopoly on T2 equipment". So T2 is now much more accessible. What happened before invention was that there was more than enough moon minerals for T2 production, so much as to create excess. Now that backlog has been eaten up by hungry inventors and other T2 producers. As it balances out, it'll bring T2 prices back up slowly towards the monopoly-day prices. Some may not reach their old prices, but it's the net effect. And to be honest, I don't think that's a big problem. Just because the players drink the well dry doesnt mean CCP has to refill it. With the introduction of tech 2 battleships, and huge increase in demand for tech 2 components and moon minerals, with the a low supply as it is, the only people that will be able to produce tech 2 modules and ships will be the owners of high end moons like Dysprosium. So CCP solved a problem with tech 2 BPO monopoly and didn't think about the problem that will create due to the low number of moons, creating another monopoly that will keep players without access to the high end moons out of the game. But I'm sure you don't have the problem with that. For you, monopoly-day prices are balanced game play.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.23 08:43:00 - [51] Quote: But I'm sure you don't have the problem with that. For you, monopoly-day prices are balanced game play. Hahah, you say that as if I own T2 BPOs, and was privvy to the insane profits people maintaining the monopoly made. If EVE was all about balance, there'd be officer spawns, 10/10 plexes, Arkonor/Bistot and all that jazz in hi sec, so that the players who aren't so capable of venturing out into low/0.0 sec, since the game is quite clealy about experiencing content, and not the actual challenge of achieving goals . Because if EVE was balanced, low/0.0 would exist merely so that people may engage in PvP on consensual terms, rather than unbalanced combat in an effort to gain a resource advantage over your opponent. Quote: With the introduction of tech 2 battleships, and huge increase in demand for tech 2 components and moon minerals, with the a low supply as it is, the only people that will be able to produce tech 2 modules and ships will be the owners of high end moons like Dysprosium. Sure, there'll be an increase in demand. And yeah, it'll increase prices, maybe up to the monopoly-level prices. Now, in case you missed my previous comment about raising prices, and in spite of your comment about monopoly prices being unbalanced, let me paint a little picture. Turn back the clock to when it was only T2 BPO owners, in some cases indeed controlling a monopoly, when, say a cerberus cost 200 mil for an almost 500% markup on manufacturing costs. BPO's meant that for 40 mil you could make 160 mil. That is imbalanced. Now, T2 BS come in, demand for T2 rises, and costs such as ferrogel and the like continue to rise. A Cerberus now sells for 200 mil, the big difference being it actually costs 180 mil to make. Turn that into isk per minute and you get about the same profit as I get for manufacturing T2 components (double if prices are sour). That's pretty far from imbalanced. But let's take a different tact for once, what's actually wrong with people raising prices in-line with the current demand for T2 components and goods? Because I'm not seeing a T2 crisis, I'm not seeing Jita running out of ferrogel, I'm seeing people continue to buy my goods. People out there have a lot of isk, and they're ready to spend it. Improve Market Competition!
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.24 09:22:00 - [52] static supply (moons) - increasing demand. what did you expect.... we mentioned this bottleneck back when invention widened the one of t2 BPOs. i like my lil' fort knox. i'm not exactly manipulating the market - it's more like a savings account. - putting the gist back into logistics
DenShou Gallente Actum Fide	Posted - 2007.11.24 10:40:00 - [53] So my thought after reading this is. Welcome to a Greed Driven Market. I'm not sorry that you can't get the perfect price for your materials. The only secure method of getting what you want is to control the source. That way your only cost is the fuel & other materials required to run the POS's. Even then you can't get a solid price on fuel, so suck it up or go home crying. Faith can move mountains.... of Inventory - Rule #104 Ferengi Rules of Acquisition
Asith	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:54:00 - [54] The trouble is dysprosiums prices are going up too fast and ferrofluid prices are going down POS are making losses This is getting stupid the guys mining the stuff are making silly profits 500 + CCP neeed to sort this out in the end if the ferrofluid market dies due to low prices then kiss good bye T2 ships
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:24:00 - [55] Originally by: Asith The trouble is dysprosiums prices are going up too fast and ferrofluid prices are going down POS are making losses This is getting stupid the guys mining the stuff are making silly profits 500 + CCP neeed to sort this out in the end if the ferrofluid market dies due to low prices then kiss good bye T2 ships This was funny. It made my afternoon. Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:13:00 - [56] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 26/11/2007 23:14:25 Originally by: Asith The trouble is dysprosiums prices are going up too fast and ferrofluid prices are going down POS are making losses This is getting stupid the guys mining the stuff are making silly profits 500 + CCP neeed to sort this out in the end if the ferrofluid market dies due to low prices then kiss good bye T2 ships Made my day too :) Obviously, someone is reacting Dysprosium into Ferrofluid and making a profit still, otherwise prices would stabilise at a higher value. Oooh, someones smacking some market PvP into you? Heaven forbid The only people being affected by this are the people not strong enough to stand against a bit of competition. Kiss goodbye to T2 ships? Heheh. I say again: SOMEONE must be reacting Dysprosium in to ferrofluid and selling the ferrofluid at a profit still. It's competition. Deal with it. That ferrofluid is being reacted into ferrogel, and that ferrogel is being bought by me to make stuff. Which then gets made into T2 ships. Improve Market Competition!
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.27 00:02:00 - [57] This ferrofluid guy should seek some advice on how to run a profitable business. We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.
Hardigeen	Posted - 2007.11.27 00:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 26/11/2007 23:14:25 Originally by: Asith The trouble is dysprosiums prices are going up too fast and ferrofluid prices are going down POS are making losses This is getting stupid the guys mining the stuff are making silly profits 500 + CCP neeed to sort this out in the end if the ferrofluid market dies due to low prices then kiss good bye T2 ships Made my day too :) Obviously, someone is reacting Dysprosium into Ferrofluid and making a profit still, otherwise prices would stabilise at a higher value. Oooh, someones smacking some market PvP into you? Heaven forbid The only people being affected by this are the people not strong enough to stand against a bit of competition. Kiss goodbye to T2 ships? Heheh. I say again: SOMEONE must be reacting Dysprosium in to ferrofluid and selling the ferrofluid at a profit still. It's competition. Deal with it. That ferrofluid is being reacted into ferrogel, and that ferrogel is being bought by me to make stuff. Which then gets made into T2 ships. Lets see if you are going to sing the same song after the next patch when they introduce Capital tech 2 components, if you are really tech 2 producer as you say.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:12:00 - [59] Quote: Lets see if you are going to sing the same song after the next patch when they introduce Capital tech 2 components, if you are really tech 2 producer as you say. Heheh, I love the finger pointing as if I've got ulterior motives all the time :) Everything you could ever want is in your "People and Places" search function and the forum search function, but you're obviously incapable of doing that since you've now tried to imply several false things about me. Here's everything you'd ever want to know about me to save you time. And for emphasis I'm a tech 2 component manufacturer. I don't invent, I don't own T2 BPOs and I don't own POS (well, one, but it's unrelated to this). And I'm going to be singing the same tune when trinity is released, as the only people struggling are the ones buying Dysprosium to react its products and can't handle the competition. Moon miners are in low sec/0.0. Hence, you should have some form of defence force to protect your assets. You want to fight against this? Go pop someones POS at a dyspro moon and take it over. You can't? Then you lose. The ones who mine dysprosium are laughing all the way to the bank because they can sell ferrofluid and other materials in a competition-free environment. It's not in their interests to sell their dysprosium because it won't sell at this price. What it does is push out the competition posed by those who react ferrofluid by buying dyspro rather than mining it. Improve Market Competition!
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.27 19:47:00 - [60] LOL I can't take it any more I have to reply.. Take a look at this picture. This is October 1 to October 31 EVE Wide T2 Ships. This gives you an idea exactly how much raw moon minerals are requires to SUPPLY A MONTH WORTH OF T2 SHIPS EVE WIDE (according to Eve-Central numbers, which are usually less then actual sales) Ferrofuild only represents 5.68% of ALL simple reactions across all T2 ships across all of EVE for October. I hope you realize that Ferrofuild is only used in making Ferrogel. So lets look at Ferrogel - WOW! 1.33% of all Complex reactions for an entire month is Ferrogel! That's some SERIOUS demand right there.. Yep that demand will push prices SKY HIGH! Anyway, at the time of this sheet was created I was able to make Ferrofuild for ~13,950.00 ISK per unit without a moon mining any part of the reaction. So selling it for 22K is still a 36.57% Margin, how much margin are you looking for? Amarr for Life

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