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Why Carriers will STILL be Preferred to Jump Freighters.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:17:00 - [1] Sometimes I dont think CCP is thinking things through. The most obvious examples of this are the turret bonuses on Covert Ops ships -- as if someone is going to combat fit a Helios. When it comes to tech 2 freighters CCP is poised to make another silly blunder. Instead of making them the preferred method of conveyance and getting carriers back into the combat job as a primary role, the new tech 2 freighters will still leave carriers as the primary logistic means for the following reasons: You still can take assembled ships in a carrier and you cant in a tech 2 frieghter. With rigs getting blown up if you repackage a ship and with rigs becomming more common, people will use the carrier to jump these. Freighters can still only jump 5ly to the carrier's 6. At Jump Drive Calibration 4, that gives the carrier SIGNIFICANT range over the freighter. This means that the carriers will be able to make many trips in 0.0 that will be difficult to make in a freighter. The bonuses on the tech 2 freighters are badly concieved. Minmatar Freighter Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cargo hold capacity and 5% bonus to maximum velocity per level Jump Freighters Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to hull hit points and 5% reduction in jump fuel need per level Looking at the bonuses I can honestly say that the Jump Freighters bonuses are silly at best. No one in a freighter is going to care about more hull HP. If you are tackled and your excort cant repel the attack, an extra 50% hp is pointless. Furthermore, the speed bonus is a really bad joke. You might get the thing up to, what, 150m/s at max skills? Who cares? Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself. With the 30 second dock bonus on changing session an enemy fleet coupld easily wipe it out before the session timer expires and it can dock. They would just ignore the rest of the fleet and focus on the freighter. How long does it take 20 BS to kill a freighter now? The resistances in the freighters are on their armor and not on their structure where the majority of their HP is located. Therefore, their vulnerability is extremely high. The real changes that need to be made are: Role bonus: Assembled ships take the same amount of space as the unassembled version of the ship. Jump distance needs to be upped to 6ly. At least then they can keep up with the carrier escort. []Minmatar freighter bonus for speed needs to be changed to agility. Everyone in a freighter warps to 0, being able to align faster is much more. []The hull HP bonus for the freighters should be changed to a further cargo capacity bonus or perhaps a compression bonus for minerals. If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:41:00 - [2] A carrier is different because those ships can be pulled out of the maintenance bay in space and the other ships can refit in the bay in space. In the case of the Jump Freighter, it would be transport from station to station only. Therefore the carrier retains its role and the logistics retain theirs. Also keep in mind that battleships wont fit in a carrier either. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:53:00 - [3] Well certainly no one is going to use them if they can be popped in the time it takes to wait out the session timer to dock. That is what they will be if their current stats are made final. Sure you can have protection, but I ask, who would YOU primary in that fleet? I dont know aobut you but I would call the freighter primary. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.03 00:21:00 - [4] Edited by: Rells on 03/11/2007 00:21:34 Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 02/11/2007 09:01:04 Sometimes I dont think CCP is thinking things through. The most obvious examples of this are the turret bonuses on Covert Ops ships -- as if someone is going to combat fit a Helios. snip Come again? (yea, not a helios, but still a cov-ops) Killmails are easily faked. Even with a full combat load, the crow would have to be dead still and afk for an anethema to kill it. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.03 00:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Soratah I believe the carrier has had it's ship maintenance bay expanded to 1,000,000m3 on Sisi (can someone check after patch to confirm?) so that's two fitted BS' If this is true then it is yet more reason to not use the freighter over the carrier. You get just over 2 times the volume and have no tank, no ability to carry ships without destroying rigs and cant jump as far. The fact that you cannot put loaded haulers in a carrier is more than made up for by the increase in bay size. Before you couldnt even put a single BS in a carrier so in fact their hauling capability has been INCREASED. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.05 05:10:00 - [6] Originally by: Red Harvest I think those jump freighters will still be quite usefull for supplying newly conquered stations or POS warfare or mining ops (combined with a rorqual) or emergency evacs. Unless the price prohibits i will certainly get me one of them and the extra 47d training for freighter V aint really shocking me neither. The jump freighter shouldn't be just a toy for the super alliances. They have enough toys that it is time to focus on the rest of us. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: Rells The hull HP bonus for the freighters should be changed to a 10% additional cargo capacity bonus and a 20% reduction in size of minerals and ice products per level. If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea. I strongly agree with you on this. Jump freighters are still less useful than the much cheaper and easily defended Carriers and piling yet another nerf onto Carriers isn't the way to go. Most of your suggestions are good but I don't think a 20% reduction per level would work well as that would be 100% at L5 and being able to transport an infinite amount of minerals -while essentially removing one of the more annoying aspects of the game, 0.0 logistics- seems very unrealistic. I should have clarified. I mean it to be a cumulative thing such that at level 1 it is reduced by 20% but at level 2 it is reduced by 20% of the 80% that remains and so on. For example, if a a block of minerals took 100m3 at level 0 it would take 80 at level 1 and 64 at level 2 and so on. However, we could simply change it to provide a 18% reduction per level to make the math easier. At level 5 minerals would take up only one tenth of the space they do in other ships. This bonus should also be on the tech 1 freighter in my opinion because it will encourage their use and make moving minerals much easier. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:17:00 - [8] The carrier would still be relevant in the fact that it would be able to deploy those ships in space. There is a need to move a large number of assembled ships such as insured and rigged ships. The jump freighter would not be able to deploy those ships in space whereas the carrier would be. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Chockcat No matter what you think. You're using the carrier for a role it wasn't suppose to be used for. I will make this real simple and easy for you. Can I have your stuff? Next time read the thread please. Then you wont post something so non-sequitur. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.15 01:08:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Nozh Hi Rells, sorry for the late reply. I did look at it earlier, but didn't have the time to reply at the time. @ Bonuses, they might still be changed to make them more effective vs. other options. The 50% increase in hull was to decrease the possibility of this ship being suicide killed in high sec. I would advise changing that to armor or shields. Then people could remote tank them with a carrier or logistics ship. Remote hull repairers are very inefficient and useless in actual combat. Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. Certainly if I am hauling ships, I MUST use the carrier as a glorified hauler because I cant put them in the freighter without popping their rigs or insurance. If rigs were removable then I would say "no problem". But almost all advanced ships such as HACs are rigged these days. Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Time it takes to kill a freighter" Well, you might need logistics ships to support the freighter if that really becomes a problem, the T2 version has more HP on hull, armor and shield, so they should be harder for smaller gangs to "insta-gank" See my comment about moving those bonuses to armor and shields. Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Jump Distance to 6ly." Like I said before, we're still looking at ways to make freighters a more obvious choice over the other options. This might be one of them. Definitely it would be better. As another poster said, I would rather have a bonus in jump range per level than a jump fuel bonus. In addition to the 6 ly, a 10% bonus per level would make it preferred after certain skill level. Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Role bonus" I'd rather see carriers and motherships as the main ship transporters. But shouldnt these be combat ships? Not haulers ? Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea." Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion. Well those capitals should be combat ships with lots of power imho. The titan should be a mobile station (anchorable is something I like for titans). Lets leave the pure hauling to the freighter. As it is now it is good to haul unassebled ships and gear but already assembled and insured ships and rigged ships demand that we get out hte carrier yet again for hauling. Originally by: Zarch AlDain Have you considered making one of the bonuses a 5% per level increase to jump range? That would give a highly skilled jump freighter a longer range than a carrier - but only with substantial training time investment. Really good idea man. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!

Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:04:00 - [11] As was pointed out, perhaps the biggest screwup was the putting of all their HP into Hull with 0 resists, no ability to fit a damage control and remote structure tanking just isnt practical when under fire. I can see a situation where someone warps in 25 BS and alphastrikes the thing. Im having to change my alt to train for rorqual. With expanders it gets only half the cargo of the jump freighter but it actually can defend itself. -- Rells Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.12 03:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Eka Maladay There are serveral advantage of jump freighter that nobody seem to care: 1) They can use normal jump gate This means they are almost immune to attack when they are going from lowsec/0.0 into highsec. This is a huge advantage for transporting out of 0.0/lowsec no other ship have ever got before. 2) They are the only capital ship that can jump out of high sec No other capital ship can go directly from high sec to 0.0 without any risk! Seriously, are you telling me the windows of 30 seconds when it dock in 0.0 is a huge risk? If that is true. I like to question you judgement. As far as I know, 25 BS doesn't suddenly appear, lock, and alpha a Jump freighter while it is docking, out of no where! If you have 25 hostiles in system, why the hell are you jumping a jump freighter into that system? Summary, they can get in and out of empire with literally no risk! The velocity bonus, and hit point bonus, is arguably not needed, but in all honesty, they are already very over powered. They do not need more. Immune to attack on what planet? Did you ever hear of a session change timer? YOu have any idea how easy it is to chew through 300k UNTANKED hull in 30 sec? -- Rells Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:40:00 - [13] I couldnt care less about using it in high sec or lowsec. Im talking about using it in real 0.0 supply situation. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:27:00 - [14] The problem in the thread is that yet again more empire carebears are chiming in on things they have no idea about. If you do'nt think it is hard to kill a freighter on a station in 0.0, you need to actually go to 0.0 once. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:32:00 - [15] Edited by: Rells on 24/12/2007 20:34:29 Bump in the hope the devs do something useful for a change rather than let zulupark nerf something else that he doesn't understand. Originally by: Eka Maladay If anything, I think you are the carebear trying to get a ship that have nearly no chance of getting killed. The jump freighter can already do things that no other ship can do, not only does it handle a role that we didn't really have any alternative beside the carrier, it does additional stuff as well. Perhaps it is expensive, but that doesn't make it useless. I dont think there are many in the game that would call me a carebear. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.31 13:01:00 - [16] For that matter it is a pain to supply the shopping needs of an alliance alone with carriers. The problem is that jump freighters are so flawed that they arent worth it. Spend 2 bil and get a rorqual or 7.5 bil and get a jump freighter. Rorqual vs Jump Freighter: Tanking: Rorqual ... tanking a jump frieghter cant even be done remotely. Hauling: jump freighter has 250k with skills whereas a haul fitted rorqual will be pushing 125. Jump Distance: Same Bonus Utility: All jump freighter bonuses except the cargo capacity ones are a waste of electrons. Rorqual's other features make it an excellent usable ship other than hauling. CCP has to face facts: Jump Freighters are messed up, Heavy interdictors are badly concieved and executed. EAFs arent worth their hefty price tags. Interdictor speed nerf was a colossal screwup. Nice graphics in trinity but thats about all its good for. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!

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