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James Duar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.02 08:36:00 -
[1]
CCP's current direction with changes to hauling and 0.0 logistics suggest that they are interesting in moving towards far more localized 0.0 logistics and fueling of starbase towers. I would like to propose an idea which would promote the usefulness of small gang warfare and retain the importance of logistics without increasing the frustration of those hardworking logistics directors in the game.
My basic premise, is that ice belts as is are a redundant form of gameplay - they unnecessarily duplicate mining (though in many ways presenting more problems and psychological issues - fuel is not very highly valued no matter its ISK worth).
What I propose, is that ice belts as they presently exist be retained - but the method of extracting ice be modified.
Instead of mining ice much like minerals are mined, ice will be mined by deployable "Icicle Harvesting Arrays" which operate independent of any player interaction and mine ice constantly in set intervals, and are deployed by mining barges and Mackinaws using the current ice mining skillset (the T1->T2 difference effecting the quality of array deployed).
Icicle Harvesting Arrays would be player-built, and cheap. They would not be targeted by rat spawns. They would have relatively low hitpoints (say, so they take 20 mins or so to destroy by a couple of BS's). Icicle Harvesting Arrays deployed in a station system would automatically beam their mined ice to the station.
The goal with the Icicle Harvesting Array, is that large numbers of it are needed to have enough fuel for your POS's, but an individual array isn't worth enough to make losing them "do or die" situations - but sustained losses will become a problem. The automatic beam-to-station mechanic is designed to make strategic station control more important in supplying logistics over a region, to promote defending the miners with small gangs (since they do not have stront timers) and of course to make logistics not annoying to do, but necessary.
The chief function of these is to make a system with an ice belt more of a strategic asset - the idea is that it acts like an oil field and refinery. You can bomb the field - the ice miners - quite easily, and cause local problems but not huge enough that massed fleets make sense (yet 1 ship left undealt with will fairly quickly wipe out a crop of them). Or, with the "beam to station" mechanic - you can attack the system, to try and seize that asset - either to get your own ice fuel, or to deny an important resource to your enemy.
Combined with the 0.0 transportation mechanic changes, there will not be a flood of cheap fuel to empire from these (disable beam to station in empire/low-sec obviously), logistics actually becomes easier to run but more vulnerable to enemy disruption - and the design should fundamentally favor small gang fights to defend/attack the miners. They also tie well with empire building - keeping your ice systems on jump bridge routes means you can easily freighter refined fuel around, but of course, a freighter moving through jump bridges can be ganked as RA showed us with Shrike and there will be a definite stream in keeping POS's running.
I believe, these would be vast improvement to the mechanics of running POSs, and importantly would favor distributed small gang PvP rather then boring but otherwise invulnerable hauling and carrier jumping of fuels as the requirement for running POSs.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.02 10:09:00 -
[2]
While general idea is good that automatic beaming part is not so shiny. It would turn ice mining into afk altswarm job (even more than it is currently).
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Gillian Haas
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Posted - 2007.11.02 11:19:00 -
[3]
I like the idea of deployable ice mining arrays so long as the amount they can mine per hour is less than you could mine with a mining barge with the same skills
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Robrian
Gallente
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.02 11:45:00 -
[4]
I also like the idea , but if you make it less than normal mining per hour then really it wont get used except when offline. Make it the same or slightly higher but make it that you have to transport the ice back rather than beam to base.
Now this means the rats can target the transport ship and at least makes it so you have to send someone in to clear the belt.
But i think a worthy idea.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.02 14:58:00 -
[5]
Edited by: James Duar on 02/11/2007 15:01:35
The beam to base mechanic is kind of an optional part of the idea - it works fairly well without it.
I added it though because I don't really believe ice mining should replicate the type of gameplay we have in other areas - collecting products etc. is what you do in moon mining, sitting in a belt is what you do in mineral mining. Beam to base would just mean that one system would accumulate ice blocks in the station, and that they'd still have to be refined and the fuel hauled manually to the actual POS's.
EDIT: The other thing to remember is that the idea is this would replace the current ice mining mechanics completely (not not the barges and skills, so people with ice mining trained would be needed to deploy the arrays). It is supposed to complement the big changes in logistics hauling ability, so the concern isn't that people would completely bottom out the ice markets since moving the fuel long distance won't make sense.
The other balance factor is supposed to be the rate of gankage of these things - systems with ice belts will be great targets for roaming gangs, since you go in and interrupt fuel supply for however long it takes someone to get new arrays online (if they don't defend the system).
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Hyakuchan
Earth Federation Space Force
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Posted - 2007.11.02 15:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Hyakuchan on 02/11/2007 15:12:55
 Originally by: James Duar
systems with ice belts will be great targets for roaming gangs
They already are.
I believe you meant to add "of cowards" to that. Ice mining belts are already rife with piratical lowlifes. The difference is that at least now you have to have some degree of combat competence to do it because your target can launch drones. Popping arrays sounds decidedly lame and carebearish.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.02 23:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hyakuchan
Edited by: Hyakuchan on 02/11/2007 15:12:55
Originally by: James Duar
systems with ice belts will be great targets for roaming gangs
They already are.
I believe you meant to add "of cowards" to that. Ice mining belts are already rife with piratical lowlifes. The difference is that at least now you have to have some degree of combat competence to do it because your target can launch drones. Popping arrays sounds decidedly lame and carebearish.
Almost no one, anywhere, mines ice in 0.0, and I actually have the skills for T2 ice miners and Mackinaws (and don't use them).
The point is to make ice belts alliance strategic assets that don't promote allince-sized blobbing in defense.
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Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2007.11.03 04:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Carniflex
While general idea is good that automatic beaming part is not so shiny. It would turn ice mining into afk altswarm job (even more than it is currently).
I tend to agree, infact if you go look in almost any high-sec ice belt in empire you can see what a MACRO altswarm job it is atm. I think we need to work on ways to make it HARDER but the rewards greater.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.03 04:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Admiral Nova
Originally by: Carniflex
While general idea is good that automatic beaming part is not so shiny. It would turn ice mining into afk altswarm job (even more than it is currently).
I tend to agree, infact if you go look in almost any high-sec ice belt in empire you can see what a MACRO altswarm job it is atm. I think we need to work on ways to make it HARDER but the rewards greater.
I re-iterate though - the beaming would obviously be a 0.0 only feature, and the whole idea works within the framework that hauling ice fuel long distances from Empire becomes logistically unfeasible.
Whether or not alts are used to deploy the miners is somewhat irrelevant - the point is that the miners have to be defended and do not have stront timers, they are highly vulnerable.
Essentially, no one wants to mine ice - which is why they don't now. Why not turn the whole mechanic into something that favors the arguably more "fun" parts of EVE - small, fast-moving and unplanned fights.
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Damion Hunter
Empire Researchs Corp
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Posted - 2007.11.03 09:38:00 -
[10]
I like the Idea, had something similar in mind with "Dustcollectors" that collect dust in space and produce small amounts of lowmins.
One Problem with your Idea could be, that belts have to be probed in future. And that they are totally Defensless, with your idea.
The first Problem could be solved if they have to be placed in space, 1 au fom every Moon and planet or so, so no Pos is defending them.
And they could be like Station Services, if you shoot them down, they simply stop working till they are repaired.
So they become a strategic asset and don't get poped every day.
Let's say they belong to the executioner Corp of the Allianc who helds Sov in the System.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.03 09:44:00 -
[11]
The idea that they be destroyable is that building them is cheap but still has a cost associated to it. If they can just be repaired later, there's not much point losing ships protecting them a lot of the time, since you just repair them later and keep mining.
If on the other hand, they can be blown up, then losing them isn't a huge loss because of their price, but still, it is a loss and if you don't on the whole keep a bunch running then you're going to run out of POS fuel.
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Sylfamas
Caldari
Making Our Way to Stars
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.03 11:09:00 -
[12]
The idea is in fact very good. But CCP won't introduce it in-game. Why ? Because is just one of those things that makes eve a not-so-easy-to-play game.
But it's worth a shot to put something like that, but also make it destroyable so in 0.0 it's very hard to maintain it, make it with a less mined amount pe hour, and make it so it's actually hard to maintain, but rewarding on the big picture. It's all about balance. If so is done, then there won't be any alts afk-mining in belts making money for no work.
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I only have one rule: Everyone fights, no one quits. |
ChowChow
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Posted - 2007.11.03 11:21:00 -
[13]
This change would put the price of ice in the gutter. If you dont want to mine ice, buy it?
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.03 11:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ChowChow
This change would put the price of ice in the gutter. If you dont want to mine ice, buy it?
CCP are planning on nerfing the logistical transportation of ice fuels from Empire. Ice as currently exists is a big fat macro-miner target anyway - no risk in Empire for something everyone from 0.0 buys by the freighter load and jumps with carriers.
My idea is based on the idea that jump bridges and freighters would be used to move ice long distances, and then carriers/jump freighters for the short hops to POS's - but that long moves from Empire would be unviable.
Mining ice where it's used means demand in Empire falls, macro miners don't really make much more then anyone else (since passive mining sets the rate of ice mining as equal for everyone). The price of ice is going to fall anyway if no one can transport it from Empire, since there'll be fewer buyers no matter what happens. My idea is basically, why duplicate mining? Why not create a way to encourage small gang PvP which really does threaten big alliances logistics but doesn't favor big blobs as a result?
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ChowChow
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Posted - 2007.11.03 12:12:00 -
[15]
Compression?
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.04 02:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: ChowChow
Compression?
What about it?
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.11.04 06:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ChowChow
This change would put the price of ice in the gutter. If you dont want to mine ice, buy it?
It already is. A few months back (when trit still went for 2 isk or less per unit), I took a quick look at mining empire ice. I found I would be making more ISK/hour mining Veldspar. The price of Trit has gone up. The price of ice products hasn't risen nearly as fast.
Empire Ice <<< Veldspar
Some 0.0 ices are very good, but empire ice is horrible.
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ICE Blueprint Sales
FIRST!! -Yipsilanti
Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.05 20:28:00 -
[18]
I'm not against the OP's proposal, but I just can't see CCP implementing anything like it.
0.0 ice mining is indeed unused. In our alliance, we recently posted 'Buy' orders for ice at 200k per unit - more than twice Empire prices - and NO ONE mined any ice.
From that fact you can come to one of two conclusions:
1> Our alliance is full of ultra-elite PVP'rs only.
2> There are better ways of making money than mining ice.
While I'd love to believe that 1> was true, I think its obvious that 2> is the explanation that's true. 
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