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Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:34:00 - [1] The bandwith has been reduced to 75 MB. "Yay, but it's to bring it inline DPS wise". False. You've got a high DPS with BLASTERS, which have a pathetic range, NO ONE ever uses blasters on missions (care to consider mission running with blasters instead of cruises? :p) With rails, its DPS is weak, while still being cap dTpendant, with huge traking issues and unable to vary it's damage type. Now the Kronos has a lower DPS output than a Hyperion, the web bonus is laughable considering that you can fit a double 90% web on a Hype (5 slot), and it as a marginally better tank (one less rig point however). Simply put : it is useless. Please bring back the BW to 125. Why with the new bandwith the Gallente are always taking the shaft?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:41:00 - [2] You really thought the the Marauders would be mission running ships? They will have other more or less good uses but they are not mission ships.
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:43:00 - [3] This change is just as senseless as the rest of the recent nerf fest but I'm really not angry about it. CCP at least has their timing right on this nerf. By screwing the Kronos before it is even released players can avoid tossing their SP into a worthless ship and spend time skilling for something else. Now finding a ship that isn't likely to be nerfed; thats a tough one unless you go Caldari.
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Xao Wen The bandwith has been reduced to 75 MB. "Yay, but it's to bring it inline DPS wise". False. You've got a high DPS with BLASTERS, which have a pathetic range, NO ONE ever uses blasters on missions (care to consider mission running with blasters instead of cruises? :p) With rails, its DPS is weak, while still being cap dTpendant, with huge traking issues and unable to vary it's damage type. Now the Kronos has a lower DPS output than a Hyperion, the web bonus is laughable considering that you can fit a double 90% web on a Hype (5 slot), and it as a marginally better tank (one less rig point however). Simply put : it is useless. Please bring back the BW to 125. Why with the new bandwith the Gallente are always taking the shaft? Wow, you my friend might be the most clueless person I've ever seen post in this game. Its DPS is better WITH RAILS than any rail platform, it has a tracking bonus and a built in cap bonus. I am just at a loss for words when it comes to arguing with someone so stupid. Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:47:00 - [5] Originally by: Venkul Mul You really thought the the Marauders would be mission running ships? They will have other more or less good uses but they are not mission ships. In the current state of things, Kronos is NOTHING. You can't pvp in that thing, you're way better in a Hype (which will be a lot cheaper anyway), you can't rat with only med drones and fixed damage guns (well not as effectively has in a plain T1 raven)... UN-nerf drone ship? LOL.
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:50:00 - [6] If I'm reading this correctly, you're upset that the ship is no longer capable of doing the DPS that precisely one noncapital ship in the game could match? You're mad that it no longer does the same DPS as the fedathron? You realize it can easily tank in the order of 1000 dps. Unless I'm mistaken, it's still the highest DPS ship in the game that isn't a capital ship or the fedathron. Honestly I'm pretty upset about the eos but with all the crazy crap going on in the patch this one actually makes sense. I mean the damn thing was a PVP monster and stood a decent chance solo against a carrier. It still IS a PVP monster. If you want to mission I'm certain there's a golem that you can crawl into somewhere, but the kronos is fine.
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Xao Wen Kronos is NOTHING. You can't pvp in that thing, you're way better in a Hype I'd really like to know why you think this.
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Cosmo Raata Caldari scumbag's opinion I've nerver said the Kronos was weak has a railboat (it is indeed effective on paper), I said DPS with rail is low. Period. Be it on a Mega, a Hype or a Kronos. Care to compare the EFECTIVE DPS between a railboat and a torp/cruise raven? Taking into account the misses/unflexibility of damage types etc? Ok now get out of my thread and go eat a bone thx.
Aries Acheron Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:54:00 - [9] Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Venkul Mul You really thought the the Marauders would be mission running ships? They will have other more or less good uses but they are not mission ships. In the current state of things, Kronos is NOTHING. You can't pvp in that thing, you're way better in a Hype (which will be a lot cheaper anyway), you can't rat with only med drones and fixed damage guns (well not as effectively has in a plain T1 raven)... UN-nerf drone ship? LOL. You're full of it. The Kronos has all the benefits of both Hyperion and Megathron, EXCEPT the ability to launch 5 heavy drones, but it makes up for this by having damage output that rivals the Federate Megathron! That's insane. It has the firepower of 8 bonused turrets. Like the Hyperion. It has the tankpower of the Hyperion, plus some. It has the tracking of the Megathron. Awesome. It has a built-in dual web which is incredibly helpful It has the grid to fit a full set of neutron blasters AND a tank, something Hypes and Megas can't do. It has a 125m3 drone bay, so that's 10 mediums, 5 lights. That's great. 5 combat mediums, 5 ecm drones, 5 warrior IIs for anti-ceptor work. It has quadruple the cargo space available for ammo, and more importantly CAP BOOSTER 800 CHARGES. It'll never run out. It has 3 utility slots for Nos/Neuts/Smarties. ...and you're saying it's 'nothing'? The only thing preventing it from being an insane KILLMOBILE without flaws is the weak EW strength, something which is fixed by fitting ECCM or having remote ECCM. Jeez. The Kronos is the most powerful non-capital ship ever, EVER seen. ~~~ Survive Eve! Eve Tribune
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:54:00 - [10] When a Goon & a BoB agree on something, it means you're dead wrong. period. Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Cosmo Raata Caldari scumbag's opinion I've nerver said the Kronos was weak has a railboat (it is indeed effective on paper), I said DPS with rail is low. Period. Be it on a Mega, a Hype or a Kronos. Care to compare the EFECTIVE DPS between a railboat and a torp/cruise raven? Taking into account the misses/unflexibility of damage types etc? Ok now get out of my thread and go eat a bone thx. I use a rail astarte & top pretty much every killmail. Train some skills boy. Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Alias11 Originally by: Xao Wen Kronos is NOTHING. You can't pvp in that thing, you're way better in a Hype I'd really like to know why you think this. Same gun DPS, more drone DPS on the Hype, ten time cheaper?
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:56:00 - [13] I never has problems with drone ships, because I use smartbombs... And so on I can't understanding why the get nerverd in the first place.
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:57:00 - [14] Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 16:57:26 Originally by: Cosmo Raata Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Cosmo Raata Caldari scumbag's opinion I've nerver said the Kronos was weak has a railboat (it is indeed effective on paper), I said DPS with rail is low. Period. Be it on a Mega, a Hype or a Kronos. Care to compare the EFECTIVE DPS between a railboat and a torp/cruise raven? Taking into account the misses/unflexibility of damage types etc? Ok now get out of my thread and go eat a bone thx. I use a rail astarte & top pretty much every killmail. Train some skills boy. I'm taking about large hybrid turret, not med.
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Xao Wen Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 16:57:26 Originally by: Cosmo Raata Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Cosmo Raata Caldari scumbag's opinion I've nerver said the Kronos was weak has a railboat (it is indeed effective on paper), I said DPS with rail is low. Period. Be it on a Mega, a Hype or a Kronos. Care to compare the EFECTIVE DPS between a railboat and a torp/cruise raven? Taking into account the misses/unflexibility of damage types etc? Ok now get out of my thread and go eat a bone thx. I use a rail astarte & top pretty much every killmail. Train some skills boy. I'm taking about large hybrid turret, not med. Then I guess killboards that show Megas on top of mails are wrong & you are right. Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Alias11 Originally by: Xao Wen Kronos is NOTHING. You can't pvp in that thing, you're way better in a Hype I'd really like to know why you think this. Same gun DPS, more drone DPS on the Hype, ten time cheaper? Significantly harder tank, More Gun DPS because of tracking bonus, free high utility slots, slightly faster.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Xao Wen The bandwith has been reduced to 75 MB. "Yay, but it's to bring it inline DPS wise". False. (...) True. No other marauder got a dps boost over its t1 counterpart, except the Paladin which badly needed it. The Kronos getting an extra turret after bonus and keeping its 125 bandwith was nosensical. They could've boosted the others or nerfed the Kronos, they nerfed the Kronos.
Aries Acheron Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Alias11 Originally by: Xao Wen Kronos is NOTHING. You can't pvp in that thing, you're way better in a Hype I'd really like to know why you think this. Same gun DPS, more drone DPS on the Hype, ten time cheaper? Wrong. The Hype can't fit 8 Neutrons and a real tank. The Kronos can. Kronos does a good bit more damage, especially while having tracking bonuses, webbing bonuses as well. The Kronos does a lot more 'effective' damage. ~~~ Survive Eve! Eve Tribune
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:09:00 - [19] And so? The Gallente are the DPS race. Beside, and whatever you'll say, Marauders are supposed to be ratter/mission running ships and nerfing their drone bay greatly decreases their hability to do so. And off course "train a golem"...
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:27:00 - [20] Edited by: Alias11 on 02/11/2007 17:36:45 Originally by: Xao Wen Marauders are supposed to be ratter/mission running ships Who told you this? ALSO: There you go, The kronos outperforms both gallente battleships in damage as well as tanking. That extra almost a drone doesn't compare to the seventh low and the MFS that goes there. IT'S FINE.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Alias11 I need new glasses. _____ CPU Love
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:34:00 - [22] I think this was needed (and yes, I fly Gallente). I'd much rather the new ships be balanced at start, than have one be overpowered and face the inevitable nerf sometime down the road. The Paladin looks nice now, and the Kronos is back in line with the others. The Vargur apparently has some fitting problems still (? not sure, haven't read those threads much), but generally it's looking good imho.
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:36:00 - [23] damn thumbnail. Also this doesn't count the much more nebulous dps boost that comes out of the extra tracking, but it's not like it needs to illustrate that anyway
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:40:00 - [24] Tracking issue can only decrease DPS. They do not increase it, comparatevely to the theorytical (sp?) DPS you get on EFT.
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:42:00 - [25] Edited by: Alias11 on 02/11/2007 17:43:28 Originally by: Xao Wen Tracking issue can only decrease DPS. They do not increase it, comparatevely to the theorytical (sp?) DPS you get on EFT. right, but the decrease in dps because of tracking will hit harder on the hyperion than it will on the mega or kronos, ergo the Kronos hits and tanks harder for longer than the hyperion and what issue do you possibly have with this? It's second in raw damage output to the goddamn FEDATHRON. Also there's the issue of how tracking may or may not effect wrecking hits but I'm going to stay out of that. IN CONCLUSION: What is the issue with the kronos. It is the highest dps non-capital non-unique ship in the game with one of the hardest tanks in addition to that. What is wrong with it?
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:53:00 - [26] Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 17:54:09 Ok. Well, I will do a very very rare thing on these forums. Considering your arguments, I agree that I have maybe a little over-reacted and the Kronos is still nice. (Only Alias11's argument btw. <3 goons). WOW! Incredible. NEVERTHELESS, I still say that they will still be slightly inferior to a well skilled cruise raven for mission runners/NPCers, while being considerabily more expensive. And the devblog that announced Marauders described them as "mission runner's wet dreams". A dev stated that, not me. Now, I'm not a carebear, I don't do missions, I'm a 0.0 pvper and make money with an alt in a sacrilege. And as I am Gallente speced, I think a ship as good to fly as the raven to grind ISK to make money would have been nice. Nevermind.
Icorion Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:08:00 - [27] Edited by: Icorion on 02/11/2007 18:08:22 Originally by: Alias11 Edited by: Alias11 on 02/11/2007 17:36:45 Originally by: Xao Wen Marauders are supposed to be ratter/mission running ships Who told you this? Sorry to interrupt your argument brosef, but the first dev blogs stated that they would not be a continuation of the hac line. Rather, they would be battleships built for grinding missions. For what it's worth, I agree with you - the ship is fine. e: beaten
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:29:00 - [28] Edited by: Alias11 on 02/11/2007 18:29:45 Originally by: Xao Wen Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 17:54:09 Ok. Well, I will do a very very rare thing on these forums. Considering your arguments, I agree that I have maybe a little over-reacted and the Kronos is still nice. (Only Alias11's argument btw. <3 goons). WOW! Incredible. NEVERTHELESS, I still say that they will still be slightly inferior to a well skilled cruise raven for mission runners/NPCers, while being considerabily more expensive. And the devblog that announced Marauders described them as "mission runner's wet dreams". A dev stated that, not me. Now, I'm not a carebear, I don't do missions, I'm a 0.0 pvper and make money with an alt in a sacrilege. And as I am Gallente speced, I think a ship as good to fly as the raven to grind ISK to make money would have been nice. Nevermind. Admittedly, the cruise raven probably is better, but that has way more to do with the differentiation between the race philosophies. A tank in the midslots means your lows are open for more damage mods, but it also means you can't tackle and tank at the same time, but you can tank and dish out dps at the same time. Which are the two things you need for missions. There'd be really no way to make it work and have them all be good pve ships unless they made all of them shield tankers. The kronos is still a decent mission runner, and can put out 500-ish dps with iridium to 60 or so km before it starts to take a damage hit, but design philosophy prevents anything from comparing to caldari for missions running. I also remember something after the announcement regarding how the marauders would be good for missioning, but it wasn't the only thing they'd be good for. I may be hallucinating though.
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:42:00 - [29] Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 18:43:36 Quote: The home-away-from-home-tech-2-battleship The long-range and high-versatility Battleship nicknamed the "Violators". Their versatility will work for many play styles but we also wanted something which would work for PvE play styles.This doesn't mean they will work well for only mission runners, so there is no need to brand them with the misnomer of the "mission ship". That's the entire quote. Not only missions ---> ratting too? (the weakness to ECM was put to keep them away form pvp I think).
Sorum Daemoth Insidious Existence Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:47:00 - [30] their went ANY chance of me buying one *You just got WTF EXIT ganked!*
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Sorum Daemoth their went ANY chance of me buying one What is that supposed to mean?
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:23:00 - [32] If you think a T2 Heavy Assault Battleship would be good for the game in any way then you're either dumb or were one of those guys who flew around in max-heatsinked Amarr battleships putting out 20,000 dps.
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:26:00 - [33] Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 19:25:52 You haven't read the thread, have you?
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:29:00 - [34] Originally by: Xao Wen Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 18:43:36 Quote: The home-away-from-home-tech-2-battleship The long-range and high-versatility Battleship nicknamed the "Violators". Their versatility will work for many play styles but we also wanted something which would work for PvE play styles.This doesn't mean they will work well for only mission runners, so there is no need to brand them with the misnomer of the "mission ship". That's the entire quote. Not only missions ---> ratting too? (the weakness to ECM was put to keep them away form pvp I think). Caldari online yet again But anyway here's my real whine. CCP go about making a "long range and highly versatile" mission ship and the irony is they kinda already had one, the Eos and they nerfed that sucker because it was too versatile and not being used within it's intended role ! I mean FFS CCP do ships have roles or don't they ? Are you going to make Marauders mission ships or are you going to blatantly contradict yourselves here ? For a lot of the player base the only way to vary damage type for ratting/PVE is drones well please wake up and smell the coffee. Or are we all supposed to be caldari ?
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:29:00 - [35] Xao Wen, meet Hydrosan. Hydrosan, stop posting. It's still a good mission runner ship, but there's a whole fleet of design philosophy that we'd need to throw in the face of to somehow make an armortanking hybrid ship as good as a shieldtanking missileboat in pve.
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:42:00 - [36] Yay. You're right. I think that pretty well sums it up.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:45:00 - [37] Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Venkul Mul You really thought the the Marauders would be mission running ships? They will have other more or less good uses but they are not mission ships. In the current state of things, Kronos is NOTHING. You can't pvp in that thing, you're way better in a Hype (which will be a lot cheaper anyway), you can't rat with only med drones and fixed damage guns (well not as effectively has in a plain T1 raven)... UN-nerf drone ship? LOL. Good (but very costly) for low sec/0.0 exploration and ratting in Gurista, Serpentis or Sansha space. Then to ........ Maybe camping gates with a gank squad, it is good for support.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:20:00 - [38] Man what a bunch of crybabies. The ship will still be great for missions against Serp, Guris, Angels, Mercs and EoM. And empire factions. It will be competitive with the CNR. The drone bandwidth nerf really changes nothing about its mission running capabilities, only gimps it for PvP and ratting. The Paladin on the other hand is still pretty crappy even after CCP 'boosted' it, seeing how the new damage bonus is on the marauder skill and it lost its other good bonus for it. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:26:00 - [39] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Angels Just "lol". Angels are pretty resistant to thermal, and decent to kin. They are weak against Explo. You will be nowhere as efficient as a lowly skilled torp raven against angels with a Railboat.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:30:00 - [40] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 02/11/2007 21:30:59 Kin is angels second weakest resistance, so you will do just fine. And a torp CNR does not do all that well against Angels too due to their small sig, and minnnie boats don't do all that well due to their gimped dps. Though I guess the new torps might make the CNR a bit overpowered against angels when it uses bane javelins, since the range problems are not as prevalent because most Angel BS come close to you. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:41:00 - [41] Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 21:41:38 Yeah sure, that's why everyone rats angels in megas or hypes... No let's be honest dude, on this particuliar type of NPC the Kronos will do the job, but not as well as a missile boat. Now that's true, the new torp will change this fact, since angels tend to have a sig of 320-350. I have yet to hear feedback from Cruise Raven NPCers.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Xao Wen Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 21:41:38 Yeah sure, that's why everyone rats angels in megas or hypes... No let's be honest dude, on this particuliar type of NPC the Kronos will do the job, but not as well as a missile boat. Now that's true, the new torp will change this fact, since angels tend to have a sig of 320-350. I have yet to hear feedback from Cruise Raven NPCers. Tbh what 'everyone' does is often quite far from being the best you can do You are right though as far as ratting goes, nothing can compete with missile ships against Angels. (Though I find my Sacrilege is a better ratter than my torp Raven, mainly due to the much faster belt hopping combined with almost equal dps). But in missions you als have a lot of small fries to kill, which is where the guns really come into their own. Kronos still won't outperform a CNR against Angels, but it should get fairly close to it. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.03 09:35:00 - [43] Originally by: Alias11 Edited by: Alias11 on 02/11/2007 18:29:45 Originally by: Xao Wen Edited by: Xao Wen on 02/11/2007 17:54:09 Ok. Well, I will do a very very rare thing on these forums. Considering your arguments, I agree that I have maybe a little over-reacted and the Kronos is still nice. (Only Alias11's argument btw. <3 goons). WOW! Incredible. NEVERTHELESS, I still say that they will still be slightly inferior to a well skilled cruise raven for mission runners/NPCers, while being considerabily more expensive. And the devblog that announced Marauders described them as "mission runner's wet dreams". A dev stated that, not me. Now, I'm not a carebear, I don't do missions, I'm a 0.0 pvper and make money with an alt in a sacrilege. And as I am Gallente speced, I think a ship as good to fly as the raven to grind ISK to make money would have been nice. Nevermind. Admittedly, the cruise raven probably is better, but that has way more to do with the differentiation between the race philosophies. A tank in the midslots means your lows are open for more damage mods, but it also means you can't tackle and tank at the same time, but you can tank and dish out dps at the same time. Which are the two things you need for missions. There'd be really no way to make it work and have them all be good pve ships unless they made all of them shield tankers. The kronos is still a decent mission runner, and can put out 500-ish dps with iridium to 60 or so km before it starts to take a damage hit, but design philosophy prevents anything from comparing to caldari for missions running. I also remember something after the announcement regarding how the marauders would be good for missioning, but it wasn't the only thing they'd be good for. I may be hallucinating though. You are not hallucinating, the blog did say that they would be good not only for missionrunning. The point about mission is that really the Kronos is worst that the already lack luster (in missions) Megathron. Removing the missile launcher and reducing the drone bandwidth mean that it is good only against a narrow range of NPC as it is not capable of tailoring his damage for them, and enemies in level 4 mission can have 80+ resists on the tank with only 1 hole with 60+ resists. That mean 50% less damage if you can't target the weak spot, a reduction that is not sufficiently compensated by the increase in damage from the bonus of the Koronos. That is not a problem in PvP as most player use a omnitank. So most of the Kronos and I think the Paladin too, as missionrunning ship, isn't a good choice. For ratting, in the right area it is different as you will use it only if you live in a area with rats weak against the damage kind dealt by the marauder you use.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.03 09:45:00 - [44] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Man what a bunch of crybabies. The ship will still be great for missions against Serp, Guris, Angels, Mercs and EoM. And empire factions. It will be competitive with the CNR. The drone bandwidth nerf really changes nothing about its mission running capabilities, only gimps it for PvP and ratting. The Paladin on the other hand is still pretty crappy even after CCP 'boosted' it, seeing how the new damage bonus is on the marauder skill and it lost its other good bonus for it. Angels? with Kin/Thermal damage and Kin/Thermal resist bonus?
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2007.11.03 11:42:00 - [45] When will people stop comparing blaster DPS with the DPS of other offensive systems? Flying a blaster boat mens you have to MWD after your target everywhere, even on a gate-camp, not to mention in a mission.. Guristas eh?. Try hitting them @50km with Large blasters. MWD.. soz m8, they don't work in mission deadspaces, and they also make you a huge target for anyone trying to probe you down. Gallente already have problems with this due to drones being so easy to probe. You have to land your ship within 10km to do any real damage with blaster. I would like to see the rage on the forums if torpedoes was given a range nerf to be in the same 'range' as blasters.
Fuazzole	Posted - 2007.11.03 11:44:00 - [46] Arr was hoping for 5x EC-900's to buff survival I'm thinking the Paladin is now > Kronos, I would trade a li'l DPS for the option to DPS 0-30km, and not be called primary.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.03 11:59:00 - [47] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 03/11/2007 11:59:13 Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 03/11/2007 09:50:49 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Man what a bunch of crybabies. The ship will still be great for missions against Serp, Guris, Angels, Mercs and EoM. And empire factions. It will be competitive with the CNR. The drone bandwidth nerf really changes nothing about its mission running capabilities, only gimps it for PvP and ratting. The Paladin on the other hand is still pretty crappy even after CCP 'boosted' it, seeing how the new damage bonus is on the marauder skill and it lost its other good bonus for it. Angels? with Kin/Thermal damage and Kin/Thermal resist bonus? Mainly Kin damage, which is the second weakest resistance of Angels. It won't outdamage a torp Raven, but should do about as well as an Arty boat. Quote: Originally by: Leandro Salazar You are right though as far as ratting goes, nothing can compete with missile ships against Angels. (Though I find my Sacrilege is a better ratter than my torp Raven, mainly due to the much faster belt hopping combined with almost equal dps). But in missions you als have a lot of small fries to kill, which is where the guns really come into their own. Kronos still won't outperform a CNR against Angels, but it should get fairly close to it. As the Krnonos bonus don't work on small or medium guns, and mixing guns sizes with 4 turrets seem a bad idea, I don't see what guns you will be using against the "small fries" while still keeping the big gun for the larger ships. We will see, maybe you are right, but I think it is a weak ship against angels. Big guns work perfectly fine on small ships if they can track them. And with that web bonus, you will even hit frigs orbiting you with rails if you fit some TCs. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.03 12:28:00 - [48] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Venkul Mul Angels? with Kin/Thermal damage and Kin/Thermal resist bonus? Mainly Kin damage, which is the second weakest resistance of Angels. It won't outdamage a torp Raven, but should do about as well as an Arty boat. Sorry, but I have still nightmares (not the ship ) of arch gistum eating 425 rail fire from my Megathron without batting an eye, while my alt with cruise missiles and less skills was killing them easily. Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Leandro Salazar You are right though as far as ratting goes, nothing can compete with missile ships against Angels. (Though I find my Sacrilege is a better ratter than my torp Raven, mainly due to the much faster belt hopping combined with almost equal dps). But in missions you als have a lot of small fries to kill, which is where the guns really come into their own. Kronos still won't outperform a CNR against Angels, but it should get fairly close to it. As the Krnonos bonus don't work on small or medium guns, and mixing guns sizes with 4 turrets seem a bad idea, I don't see what guns you will be using against the "small fries" while still keeping the big gun for the larger ships. We will see, maybe you are right, but I think it is a weak ship against angels. Big guns work perfectly fine on small ships if they can track them. And with that web bonus, you will even hit frigs orbiting you with rails if you fit some TCs. And target painters too, or you will get a lot of near miss. I am not convinced it will be better than a Megathron with full complement of drones (if CCP isn't reducing the drones in the Mega too) and cruise missiles in the last 2 harpoints, but I suppose only actual testing of the set up will give a final reply.
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.03 13:02:00 - [49] Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Leandro Salazar Angels Just "lol". Angels are pretty resistant to thermal, and decent to kin. They are weak against Explo. You will be nowhere as efficient as a lowly skilled torp raven against angels with a Railboat. Technically speaking you are right, but a rail boat with good skills will still rip through an Angel mission pretty quickly. And no, a lowly skilled Raven pilot will not win against a skilled Mega pilot, EVER. If both are highly skilled however, yes the Raven has the edge but it is not as clear cut as you might think.
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.11.03 14:46:00 - [50] Originally by: Hephaesteus Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Leandro Salazar Angels Just "lol". Angels are pretty resistant to thermal, and decent to kin. They are weak against Explo. You will be nowhere as efficient as a lowly skilled torp raven against angels with a Railboat. Technically speaking you are right, but a rail boat with good skills will still rip through an Angel mission pretty quickly. Sorry but I'm in the camp too. I've not found any setup for mega or hyp which can match a domi for angel missions. Not just because of the tanking issues but speed you can reach with beserker2s and exp sentries tend to rip them to shreds in comparison. Not only do you have issues with hybrid ammo damage types vs angel resists. You also have the issue that Angels are mostly close range, so you've got a problem with tracking, they also have a few long range battleships, so you can't just fit blasters. MWD for ratting may help but then there's the cap problems and thus tank problems. I fail to believe a Raven with a target painter would have any problems ****ing all over the kronos for Angel ratting/missions.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.11.03 16:07:00 - [51] Originally by: Alias11 Edited by: Alias11 on 02/11/2007 17:36:45 Originally by: Xao Wen Marauders are supposed to be ratter/mission running ships Who told you this? ALSO: There you go, The kronos outperforms both gallente battleships in damage as well as tanking. That extra almost a drone doesn't compare to the seventh low and the MFS that goes there. IT'S FINE. LOL. Check it out, he offlined the MWDs to get the setups to fit! LOL. What a r3tard. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.11.03 17:00:00 - [52] He didn't offline them he turned them off.
Idaeus Gallente Earned In Blood Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.11.03 17:03:00 - [53] Originally by: Bellum Eternus LOL. Check it out, he offlined the MWDs to get the setups to fit! LOL. What a r3tard. They're not offlined. That red x simply means it's not active, thus not using cap. IOI - Earned In Blood
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2007.11.03 17:25:00 - [54] Originally by: Bellum Eternus What a r3tard.
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.03 17:39:00 - [55] Originally by: Leandro Salazar It will be competitive with the CNR. I wish to purchase your mind altering substance of choice. Originally by: Brixer When will people stop comparing blaster DPS with the DPS of other offensive systems? We weren't comparing it to the damage of other systems, we were comparing the kronos to a hyperion Originally by: Bellum Eternus LOL. Check it out, he offlined the MWDs to get the setups to fit! LOL. What a r3tard. Look at you, there Originally by: Fuazzole Arr was hoping for 5x EC-900's to buff survival I'm thinking the Paladin is now > Kronos, I would trade a li'l DPS for the option to DPS 0-30km, and not be called primary. Using Null in Ions gets you pretty severe damage out to fifteen, and neutrons (for a GANKGANKGANK setup) can push the damage out to about 20km. past 30, you can make due with 350s loaded with antimatter, and that'll stretch to 50 kilometers. The only real range issue on gallente gun battleships is between 20 and 30km, where you're out of range of blasters but rails can't track
The RedSun Goats In Coats	Posted - 2007.11.03 17:49:00 - [56] I vote bring back the old bandwidth ------------- Ow look the Sun it burns !
Robstr Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:05:00 - [57] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Alias11 Edited by: Alias11 on 02/11/2007 17:36:45 Originally by: Xao Wen Marauders are supposed to be ratter/mission running ships Who told you this? ALSO: There you go, The kronos outperforms both gallente battleships in damage as well as tanking. That extra almost a drone doesn't compare to the seventh low and the MFS that goes there. IT'S FINE. LOL. Check it out, he offlined the MWDs to get the setups to fit! LOL. What a r3tard. You need to watch what your calling people: The X means 'not active', not 'off line' ====
Rainbow Bear Care Bears	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:47:00 - [58] Edited by: Rainbow Bear on 03/11/2007 19:51:16 At first, me being a firm Drones and Gallente Ships user, I thought this one hits me square in the balls as I am a career mission runner and was specifically training up for a Kronos to replace my Navy Mega (7 Rails + 1 Torp Launcher VS 4 Rails x 2 + utility slots). However, then I got to thinking........most of the time, my rails almost take out an enemy Battleship before the heavy drones even get to it, more so if the ships are 40-50km apart. Recently I swapped from using Ogre II's to Wasp II's to try and boost this time to target speed and all this nerf has made me think is I am probably better off using Hammerhead II's in any case. After all, 15 seconds of 150 DPS is better than 5 seconds of 300 DPS? Of course the side benefit is I now get to carry spares AND I lose less drones to new spawns as Medium drones return quicker I think all the EFT Warriors who want to MAX POWER! their "THEORETICAL" ship setups should take a reality check now and again..... ------------------------------------- Where Care Bears Came From!
Jasai Kameron Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.03 21:30:00 - [59] There has been at least one interview where it was suggested that the Marauders would be designed to be good at missions. In my opinion, they should have kept the drone bay and nerfed the turrets. Now the Kronos remains an awesome PVP ship, but its PVE capabilities have taken a hit. Drones are just a lot better at missions than hybrids, for several reasons. The most obvious of which is the ability to choose damage type. Personally, I was hoping for a ship to do missions in using drones and rails. I'm not sure if the Kronos is going to be able to do that more effectively than a Raven or, for that matter, a Dominix. On the other hand, there's little doubt that it will be an awesome blastership.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.11.03 21:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Cosmo Raata Caldari scumbag's opinion I've nerver said the Kronos was weak has a railboat (it is indeed effective on paper), I said DPS with rail is low. Period. Be it on a Mega, a Hype or a Kronos. Care to compare the EFECTIVE DPS between a railboat and a torp/cruise raven? Taking into account the misses/unflexibility of damage types etc? Ok now get out of my thread and go eat a bone thx. You cannot compare it to the current Torpedo Raven. Torpedos are going to 30km max Raven range in Rev 3, so complare the Raven's new Torp damage with the Kronos' Blaster DPS, and the Cruise DPS with the Kronos' Rail DPS. Raven Cruise DPS with 6 Cruise II at max skills and 3x BCU II, with CN missiles: 518 DPS. Kronos, same skills, 4x 425mm Rail II, 3x MFS, CN Uranium: 576 DPS. Uranium gives a 54km Optimal, 30km falloff, well in range of most mission applications. Also, ditch the ad hominems, they make you look like a jerk. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Xao Wen	Posted - 2007.11.04 00:22:00 - [61] Edited by: Xao Wen on 04/11/2007 00:23:46 Originally by: Jurgen Cartis You cannot compare it to the current Torpedo Raven. Torpedos are going to 30km max Raven range in Rev 3, so complare the Raven's new Torp damage with the Kronos' Blaster DPS, and the Cruise DPS with the Kronos' Rail DPS. Drones are not included here, though both ships have the same bandwith. Raven Cruise DPS with 6 Cruise II at max skills and 3x BCU II, with CN missiles: 518 DPS. Kronos, same skills, 4x 425mm Rail II, 3x MFS, CN Uranium: 576 DPS. Uranium gives a 54km Optimal, 30km falloff, well in range of most mission applications. Also, ditch the ad hominems, they make you look like a jerk. Oh my god. Ridiculous. First no one use 3 MFS on an armor tanking ship, that leaves you with a 4 slot tank which is clearly not enough for lvl 4 or 5. Check Alias11's setup, only one magstab iirc, plausible setup. Then, you are comparing raw DPS which are NOT taking into account miss rate and the fact that roughly (I said roughly) one half is kinetic, the other half is thermal, meanwhile on a missile boat you ALWAYS lay 100% of your damage on the NPC weakest resist. At best we can deal SOME of our damage on the weakest resist (kinetic for exemple) while the rest of our damage is laid on a more resisted damage type. You're the jerk.
Jimbob McKracken Caldari The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.04 02:24:00 - [62] Originally by: Xao Wen Edited by: Xao Wen on 04/11/2007 00:23:46 Originally by: Jurgen Cartis You cannot compare it to the current Torpedo Raven. Torpedos are going to 30km max Raven range in Rev 3, so complare the Raven's new Torp damage with the Kronos' Blaster DPS, and the Cruise DPS with the Kronos' Rail DPS. Drones are not included here, though both ships have the same bandwith. Raven Cruise DPS with 6 Cruise II at max skills and 3x BCU II, with CN missiles: 518 DPS. Kronos, same skills, 4x 425mm Rail II, 3x MFS, CN Uranium: 576 DPS. Uranium gives a 54km Optimal, 30km falloff, well in range of most mission applications. Also, ditch the ad hominems, they make you look like a jerk. Oh my god. Ridiculous. First no one use 3 MFS on an armor tanking ship, that leaves you with a 4 slot tank which is clearly not enough for lvl 4 or 5. Check Alias11's setup, only one magstab iirc, plausible setup. Then, you are comparing raw DPS which are NOT taking into account miss rate and the fact that roughly (I said roughly) one half is kinetic, the other half is thermal, meanwhile on a missile boat you ALWAYS lay 100% of your damage on the NPC weakest resist. At best we can deal SOME of our damage on the weakest resist (kinetic for exemple) while the rest of our damage is laid on a more resisted damage type. You're the jerk. Ever heard of defender missles ??? pretty much every rat spews them out these days and they take down cruise with one hit, seriously if you think the grass is greener try skilling missles and see how "easy" it is to get a raven to tank anywhere near what that kronos will do. Feel for the caldari marauder - if it uses torps its got a 30km range - if it uses cruise it'll get 2 out of the 4 missles knocked out before they hit anything. Seriously try it, the raven has an awful tank especially with 3 BCU's fitted.
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.04 02:38:00 - [63] Originally by: OneSock Originally by: Hephaesteus Originally by: Xao Wen Originally by: Leandro Salazar Angels Just "lol". Angels are pretty resistant to thermal, and decent to kin. They are weak against Explo. You will be nowhere as efficient as a lowly skilled torp raven against angels with a Railboat. Technically speaking you are right, but a rail boat with good skills will still rip through an Angel mission pretty quickly. Sorry but I'm in the camp too. I've not found any setup for mega or hyp which can match a domi for angel missions. Not just because of the tanking issues but speed you can reach with beserker2s and exp sentries tend to rip them to shreds in comparison. Not only do you have issues with hybrid ammo damage types vs angel resists. You also have the issue that Angels are mostly close range, so you've got a problem with tracking, they also have a few long range battleships, so you can't just fit blasters. MWD for ratting may help but then there's the cap problems and thus tank problems. I fail to believe a Raven with a target painter would have any problems ****ing all over the kronos for Angel ratting/missions. Well I mission in a Navy Meg and have no tanking issues at all v Angels, so I would guess a Kronos with its repping bonus would be really nice tank. Also I am a lot faster in missions v Angels than same of my corpies that fly Ravens. Close combat is easy fit a webber. I have no problems killing cruisers and up with 425 rails and a fleeting webber so the Kronos with web bonus will be even better. All in all it's not the ship but how you use it that counts. Can't comment on the sentries and Domi set-up because I don't have T2 sentries yet, but it's not too far away so when I've skilled for them I'll time it and see who wins. Got a feeling it'll be the guns though.
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.04 07:00:00 - [64] Originally by: Xao Wen Edited by: Xao Wen on 04/11/2007 00:23:46 Originally by: Jurgen Cartis You cannot compare it to the current Torpedo Raven. Torpedos are going to 30km max Raven range in Rev 3, so complare the Raven's new Torp damage with the Kronos' Blaster DPS, and the Cruise DPS with the Kronos' Rail DPS. Drones are not included here, though both ships have the same bandwith. Raven Cruise DPS with 6 Cruise II at max skills and 3x BCU II, with CN missiles: 518 DPS. Kronos, same skills, 4x 425mm Rail II, 3x MFS, CN Uranium: 576 DPS. Uranium gives a 54km Optimal, 30km falloff, well in range of most mission applications. Also, ditch the ad hominems, they make you look like a jerk. Oh my god. Ridiculous. First no one use 3 MFS on an armor tanking ship, that leaves you with a 4 slot tank which is clearly not enough for lvl 4 or 5. Check Alias11's setup, only one magstab iirc, plausible setup. Then, you are comparing raw DPS which are NOT taking into account miss rate and the fact that roughly (I said roughly) one half is kinetic, the other half is thermal, meanwhile on a missile boat you ALWAYS lay 100% of your damage on the NPC weakest resist. At best we can deal SOME of our damage on the weakest resist (kinetic for exemple) while the rest of our damage is laid on a more resisted damage type. You're the jerk. To be fair, the setups I posted were pvp-minded, and you could fit two magstabs on a kronos with a missioning tank of 2x mission hardner, 2x mission hardener, LAR. But this still doesn't deal with the problems in his post, like tracking, or who missions with faction ammo?
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.04 11:22:00 - [65] Originally by: Xao Wen Oh my god. Ridiculous. First no one use 3 MFS on an armor tanking ship, that leaves you with a 4 slot tank which is clearly not enough for lvl 4 or 5. Check Alias11's setup, only one magstab iirc, plausible setup. Then, you are comparing raw DPS which are NOT taking into account miss rate and the fact that roughly (I said roughly) one half is kinetic, the other half is thermal, meanwhile on a missile boat you ALWAYS lay 100% of your damage on the NPC weakest resist. At best we can deal SOME of our damage on the weakest resist (kinetic for exemple) while the rest of our damage is laid on a more resisted damage type. It is possible to fit 3 MFS on an armour tanking ship I use one all the time. It's not your average set-up of course but if you buy a billion isk ship you're going to want it to be the best you can make it. Antimatter ftw
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.04 14:58:00 - [66] Originally by: Venkul Mul You really thought the the Marauders would be mission running ships? They will have other more or less good uses but they are not mission ships. "There not mission ships... There not mission ships..." We keep hearing that repeated.... Then which of these 3 statements are true, because one of them has to be. 1) The CCP Dev at the game convention in Germany lied, there are no T2 Mission running battleships coming. 2) Black Ops must be the Mission runner T2 Battleship since the Marauder clearly isn't. 3) You guys chanting that Marauders "aren't mission ships" are wrong. Which is it? State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.04 22:59:00 - [67] Well having tried a Kronos on Sisi I have to say it is the best mission running ship I have ever used. For missions this is one beast of a ship with good firepower and a very nice tank. The drone bandwidth nerf is hardly noticeable with this ship because If you have a 90% webber fitted (which becomes 99% with the Kronos's bonuses) you can one volley webbing/scrambling Frigs at 7km with 425 T2 rails. I know you can kill frigs up close with 425's. Not only that but you can loot and salvage at the same time as doing the mission.
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.04 23:01:00 - [68] In case you didn't get it I want one
Aries Acheron Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.05 10:25:00 - [69] Don't whine about the Kronos. It's still the best parts of both the Mega and the Hype, EXCEPT for the drone bay. Enough grid to fit Neutron Blasters AND a full Tank, AND A Tracking Bonus, AND A tank Bonus, AND a dual web bonus? AND the superior slot arrangement of the Mega, AND 3 utility slots? It's a goddamned DREAM. Just because it has to fit 5 mediums instead of 5 heavies drops the DPS by what? 100 or so? That's not bad for a ship that already clears 1000 in many fits. ~~~ Survive Eve! Eve Tribune
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.11.05 10:38:00 - [70] doesnt this ship make good use of faction webs aswell? arnt those webs long range but low effect? kronos with claymore in gang with a few faction webs.. thats some nice fighting distance. or is the bonus to webs to low to make it effective? hadnt had time to catch up on those damn t2 bs yet.. need to sit down and do that soon..
CptEav1s Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.05 15:01:00 - [71] Oh wow the world weeps for nooby mission runners, face it anyone who knows a good set of tactics would leave the drone bay for med's and light's makes it alot easier to pop frigs and destroyers, rather than wasting your blasters on em. Only thing I agree with to an extent is that all other races are getting screwed over cept Caldari, I say in the expansion after Rev 3 they should nerf missile spam, and see how they like it, sick and tired of seeing Ravens and Drakes with the occasional Domi in low sec, NERF CALDARI!... Lol I luv ending all my posts with that Cheers - CptEav1s Sarge "Hey, Grif chupathingy how bout it? I like it got a ring to it" I BRAKE FOR PUMAS!

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