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Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.04 00:22:00 - [1] ... to break the Remote Sensor Damp balancing issue walnut. Honestly, tracking comps and sensor boosters don't need to be touched. Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors need balancing but why take this new line of game design? You actually brought diversity and specialism into the game when you made Caldari ECM ships the only ones to be able to effectively use jammers. Rather than introduce scripting which adds a lot of micro-management (at a personal and gang level) and will limit people in their tactics and inventiveness in small and mid-sized PvP, why not take the ECM route. Make it so Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors are only effective on the ships they should be used on. Don't make it chance based but make their base numbers very low but significantly increase the bonuses on Gallente Damps ships and Amarr Tracking Disruptors so they keep their current level of effectiveness.
Alex Shurk	Posted - 2007.11.04 00:23:00 - [2] /signed.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.04 00:30:00 - [3] Eh, I'm ok with the scripts TBH. When I trained for the Arazu, I expected it to be nerfed eventually. I actually like the idea, but it remains to be seen whether I like the implementation. ;-) Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Jimbob McKracken Caldari The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.04 01:44:00 - [4] Shield tankers get hit again with this nerf - mid slots are already precious enough - guess its time to start armor tanking the ravens So much for diversity
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.11.04 03:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Jimbob McKracken Shield tankers get hit again with this nerf - mid slots are already precious enough - guess its time to start armor tanking the ravens So much for diversity What are you talking about? Complaining that one sensor booster won't be enough? Arazus and Lachesis are completely jacked now, not to mention the Celestis. Keres isn't that great due to the damp changes. ECM gets a massive buff, shield boosters get a huuuuge buff, torps get a huge buff. Caldari hasn't seen anything in this patch except for buffs. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Shereza	Posted - 2007.11.04 03:47:00 - [6] Quote: Shield tankers get hit again with this nerf - mid slots are already precious enough - guess its time to start armor tanking the ravens I've already been armor tanking my raven. It's such a nice, simple, easy to use, efficient design. A lot better (for me) than shield tanking a raven is.
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.11.04 04:15:00 - [7] Edited by: Phaedruss on 04/11/2007 04:16:54 Edited by: Phaedruss on 04/11/2007 04:15:43 Originally by: Stein Voorhees ... to break the Remote Sensor Damp balancing issue walnut. Honestly, tracking comps and sensor boosters don't need to be touched. Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors need balancing but why take this new line of game design? You actually brought diversity and specialism into the game when you made Caldari ECM ships the only ones to be able to effectively use jammers. Rather than introduce scripting which adds a lot of micro-management (at a personal and gang level) and will limit people in their tactics and inventiveness in small and mid-sized PvP, why not take the ECM route. Make it so Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors are only effective on the ships they should be used on. Don't make it chance based but make their base numbers very low but significantly increase the bonuses on Gallente Damps ships and Amarr Tracking Disruptors so they keep their current level of effectiveness. Lets look at the Sensor Booster II / F-90 on TQ, what they do, and why people generally fit them. Sensor Booster II/F-90 increases your lock range by 60% and your scan resolution by 60%. Thus, they can be used as a counter to Sensor Damps or they can be used to give you an advantage in targeting range and faster locking. I'd wager that the vast majority of players in Eve add this module to their ship specifically with the later in mind with hardly a thought given to the 'counter' side. This dual use is very convenient because you can add it for advantage in one area and get a counter bonus as well. Pretty powerful mod for something that is so easy to fit and so very common. If we're going to talk about damp/tracking disruptor nerfs and Sensor Boosters/tracking computers in the same sentence, then the latter should be nerfed so that they counter the former 100% with otherwise no other benefit, because complaining that the SB you fit for offensive purposes doesn't give you complete immunity when attacked by damps/disruptors is too much. Of course, nerfing TCs and Sensor Boosters in this way is ridiculous, but no more so than the nerf being pushed for damps and TDs. The Script idea I think is ok, though the implementation I don't like. A serious question for the Devs: I have doubts about development and changes in Eve continuing with the full knowledge and understanding about why certain things are as they are now, could it be that the dual use of Sensor Boosters (and tracking computers) and their overwhelming use not as counters to Damps/TDs but as mods used almost entirely to suport offensive abilities has been forgotten?
Bohoba Caldari Dragons United Pure.	Posted - 2007.11.04 04:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Jimbob McKracken Shield tankers get hit again with this nerf - mid slots are already precious enough - guess its time to start armor tanking the ravens So much for diversity What are you talking about? Complaining that one sensor booster won't be enough? Arazus and Lachesis are completely jacked now, not to mention the Celestis. Keres isn't that great due to the damp changes. ECM gets a massive buff, shield boosters get a huuuuge buff, torps get a huge buff. Caldari hasn't seen anything in this patch except for buffs. I don't see no Buffs ECM is chance base most the time your dead before you get a jam and I am maxed skills Torps got a range nerf and voc nerf and anything moving will get hit with a damage of 5 if your lucky if its another BS your dead Shild boost now thats a new one have to check that out The Dark Force is strong in EvE But it will fail Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.04 06:27:00 - [9] Edited by: Dangerously Cheesey on 04/11/2007 06:27:52 Originally by: Stein Voorhees ... to break the Remote Sensor Damp balancing issue walnut. Honestly, tracking comps and sensor boosters don't need to be touched. Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors need balancing but why take this new line of game design? You actually brought diversity and specialism into the game when you made Caldari ECM ships the only ones to be able to effectively use jammers. Rather than introduce scripting which adds a lot of micro-management (at a personal and gang level) and will limit people in their tactics and inventiveness in small and mid-sized PvP, why not take the ECM route. Make it so Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors are only effective on the ships they should be used on. Don't make it chance based but make their base numbers very low but significantly increase the bonuses on Gallente Damps ships and Amarr Tracking Disruptors so they keep their current level of effectiveness. Your absolutely right about Tracking Disruptors being worthy of a nerf of this magnitude. They were destroying pvp with their amazing power and pretty much the only choice was go caldari (to use missles) or quit. I fully sup-- LOL Damn I almost made it through that without giggling.
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.11.04 07:29:00 - [10] The day damps get low slot strength mods that prevent them from tanking, different racials, higher cap use, are chance based and damp boats lose their drone bays, you'll have a right to complain about effectiveness until then... stfu.
Felice Remillard Flatline Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.04 08:57:00 - [11] I'd suggest taking a look at the Caldari ECM ship boosts currently on Sisi. Should make even the most bitter Caldari ECM user happy. I don't think the OP is talking about changing how the modules work (Racials, low slot boosts etc) but rather making the module only effectively useful by specific ships. Flatline Mercenary Brokerage Business Model
Varrakk Chosen Path	Posted - 2007.11.04 09:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Phaedruss Edited by: Phaedruss on 04/11/2007 04:16:54 Lets look at the Sensor Booster II / F-90 on TQ, what they do, and why people generally fit them. Sensor Booster II/F-90 increases your lock range by 60% and your scan resolution by 60%. Thus, they can be used as a counter to Sensor Damps or they can be used to give you an advantage in targeting range and faster locking. I'd wager that the vast majority of players in Eve add this module to their ship specifically with the later in mind with hardly a thought given to the 'counter' side. Mayhaps in small sized fights. It's a terrible change for us Snipers. Usually where large sniper fleets are, there is huge lang. And having to flip around on the script, even if they only have 1second reload time. Thats still going to take several minutes for the node to handle. Having 100+ snipers toss around on our scripts because theres hostile support in our mids. We dont need to extra micromanagement. When changing ammo can be challenging enough (especially for Amarr)
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.11.04 11:08:00 - [13] Edited by: Phaedruss on 04/11/2007 11:08:32 Originally by: Varrakk Originally by: Phaedruss Edited by: Phaedruss on 04/11/2007 04:16:54 Lets look at the Sensor Booster II / F-90 on TQ, what they do, and why people generally fit them. Sensor Booster II/F-90 increases your lock range by 60% and your scan resolution by 60%. Thus, they can be used as a counter to Sensor Damps or they can be used to give you an advantage in targeting range and faster locking. I'd wager that the vast majority of players in Eve add this module to their ship specifically with the later in mind with hardly a thought given to the 'counter' side. Mayhaps in small sized fights. It's a terrible change for us Snipers. Usually where large sniper fleets are, there is huge lang. And having to flip around on the script, even if they only have 1second reload time. Thats still going to take several minutes for the node to handle. Having 100+ snipers toss around on our scripts because theres hostile support in our mids. We dont need to extra micromanagement. When changing ammo can be challenging enough (especially for Amarr) Yep, I know where you're coming from. Been in half a dozen lag-fests recently. It's going to have far reaching consequences for everyone who uses both modules. But regardless of how badly nerfed Sensor Damps become, Sensor Boosters will still be popular because no-one actually fits them specifically to counter damps anyway.
Naviset	Posted - 2007.11.04 13:56:00 - [14] Does this help lag? No. It kinda makes certain ships more effective by likely pulling sniping fleets closer, however. Also, if anything, I would think this nerf in general helps your shield tanking caldari just by devaluing their mids to SBs and Ewar rather than meaning they need to give up more mids to accomplish the things they did before. The only way in my opinion Caldari got nerfed is the damp / armor raven wont work as well anymore :-p
Gripen Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.11.04 16:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Stein Voorhees Make it so Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors are only effective on the ships they should be used on. Don't make it chance based but make their base numbers very low but significantly increase the bonuses on Gallente Damps ships and Amarr Tracking Disruptors so they keep their current level of effectiveness. Why not make dampeners use 10000 of cpu and give recons a bonus to reduce this amount? Or better idea: why do we need slots on the ships? Make all modules build-in! As someone said - Yay for dumbing game down
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.04 20:50:00 - [16] All that had to be done is set Damps/TD's at 10/10 str and just under ECM cap levels, then bonus the ewar ships designed to use them with STR bonuses to 50/50 -more with RIGS added- and cap reduction bonus. Why should a non-damp/td specific ship still get high strenght on them? This won't correct the overuse of them. Seemed pretty simple. Now, you need 2 sensor boosters and 2 tracking comps to do what one of each did. Ranged engagements have been dealt a serious blow. Dictors have been slowed to hell -just slightly faster yet weaker AF's that fart bubbles. SNAKES and nanoships haven't been touched a bit. Ravens and cerbs spamming missiles seems to be the only "long range" ships now, but only if armor tanking so they can lock at long range with decent lock time. THUKKER -Be Paranoid Skeet Skeet L33t
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.05 15:58:00 - [17] I don't know what world all the crybabies are living in, but in MY game time the ONLY people I see fitting damps are gallente recons, and stealth bombers. They are by NO MEANS OVERPOWERED. They are useful on a gallente recon, but I'd still rather have a falcon with ecm since that ALWAYS works no matter the range, and you don't always need 2 per target.
Wireknight Taxbreak	Posted - 2007.11.05 16:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Bellum Eternus [...]torps get a huge buff. You must be playing on that other EVE-Server, along with that "Carrier != hauler" dev.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.05 16:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Wireknight Originally by: Bellum Eternus [...]torps get a huge buff. You must be playing on that other EVE-Server, along with that "Carrier != hauler" dev. Torps now do enough short-range DPS to make blaster Megathrons nearly obsolete (because that DPS also has vastly more range than blasters). The new torps are scary. If that doesn't qualify as a buff in your book, I'm almost afraid to ask what would qualify...
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.05 16:30:00 - [20] ...back to the actual topic: I have no problems with damps being made a lot less powerful on ships not specialized to use them, a bit tired of seeing everyone and their little dog fit damps nowadays. But they should still remain very effective on specialized EW ships, and that's looking a bit iffy at the moment. Gallente EW pilots have some reason to be worried. Same applies to tracking disruptors, though they were never near as powerful as damps to begin with. I don't think they should have gotten as big a nerf, tbh, in the first place. But now... poor Amarr recons, too, if this goes through.
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.11.05 18:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Gripen Originally by: Stein Voorhees Make it so Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors are only effective on the ships they should be used on. Don't make it chance based but make their base numbers very low but significantly increase the bonuses on Gallente Damps ships and Amarr Tracking Disruptors so they keep their current level of effectiveness. Why not make dampeners use 10000 of cpu and give recons a bonus to reduce this amount? Or better idea: why do we need slots on the ships? Make all modules build-in! As someone said - Yay for dumbing game down Er, what? So, I bet you fit like, lasers on Minmatar ships too?
Donna Maria Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.05 23:12:00 - [22] Man RSD's are the only thing that keep you alive in a Stealth Bomber. :( At least give stealth bombers a bonus to RSD if you are going to nerf this module. Im the girl momma warned you about..
Xaldor	Posted - 2007.11.06 12:52:00 - [23] Edited by: Xaldor on 06/11/2007 12:53:16 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Torps now do enough short-range DPS to make blaster Megathrons nearly obsolete (because that DPS also has vastly more range than blasters). The new torps are scary. If that doesn't qualify as a buff in your book, I'm almost afraid to ask what would qualify... It would have been a buff had the torps maintained the same scaling of other short range missiles, however, Torps have the same range as HAMs, which is too short. Also, the explosion radius means you need to fit a painter to even hit a battleship for remotely close to maximum damage. Given the fact Caldari are typically shield tankers, they lack the mid slots to fit MWD/ABs, Target Painters or Webs, let alone all the other PvP modules like scramblers and the various sensor modules. So the Caldari with the Torps is either a glass cannon which would get blown out of space by an angry frigate or it is going to be totally ineffective or rely heavily on others to do anything. The Mega is nowhere remotely that limited.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.06 12:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Xaldor Edited by: Xaldor on 06/11/2007 12:53:16 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Torps now do enough short-range DPS to make blaster Megathrons nearly obsolete (because that DPS also has vastly more range than blasters). The new torps are scary. If that doesn't qualify as a buff in your book, I'm almost afraid to ask what would qualify... It would have been a buff had the torps maintained the same scaling of other short range missiles, however, Torps have the same range as HAMs, which is too short. Also, the explosion radius means you need to fit a painter to even hit a battleship for remotely close to maximum damage. Given the fact Caldari are typically shield tankers, they lack the mid slots to fit MWD/ABs, Target Painters or Webs, let alone all the other PvP modules like scramblers and the various sensor modules. So the Caldari with the Torps is either a glass cannon which would get blown out of space by an angry frigate or it is going to be totally ineffective or rely heavily on others to do anything. The Mega is nowhere remotely that limited. Wrong. See here.

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