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T'Amber
anomandaris demaleon
Vaccaei Imperial
   |
Posted - 2007.11.05 16:06:00 -
[1]
I happened upon an interesting forum thread while browsing the internet for EVE news and media.
It is definitely worth taking a 5min break and reading what WOW players think of EVE along
with the various views on Leveling Up VS Skill Training and Directed Play VS Self Direction
 Quote:
"So hereÆs the thing: Eve Online is a better model for making an MMO than World Of Warcraft. If someone, right now, was looking for a way to create an interesting MMO they should take Eve as their mechanical gameplay model, and not WoW."
World of EveCraft
(This link will take you to a thread written by Jim Rossignol (Oct 19, 2007) on the Rock, Paper, Shotgun website)
Quote:
No longer is there level 35 cake you canÆt eat because youÆre only level 30
a n o m a n d a r i s . d e m a l e o n
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John McDuff
Caldari
Jovian Labs
Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:13:00 -
[2]
Quote:
Now that doesnÆt necessarily mean that Eve Online is a better MMO than World Of Warcraft. Eve is messed up and broken in all kinds of outrageous ways, and the PvP-heavy spaceship-centric world design puts most people off the idea completely.
I stopped after this. If "PvP-heavy spaceship-centric" is a big part of the expectation of eve putting ppl off the man can only be a hello kitty fantasy fanboi and his story not worth my time.
---
"Everyone speaks of my drinking, but never of my thirst"
Everyone can now start bowing down to me in an orderly fashion...
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SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:16:00 -
[3]
Originally by: John McDuff
Quote:
Now that doesnÆt necessarily mean that Eve Online is a better MMO than World Of Warcraft. Eve is messed up and broken in all kinds of outrageous ways, and the PvP-heavy spaceship-centric world design puts most people off the idea completely.
I stopped after this. If "PvP-heavy spaceship-centric" is a big part of the expectation of eve putting ppl off the man can only be a hello kitty fantasy fanboi and his story not worth my time.
DURF DURF.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:19:00 -
[4]
Sadly, the majority of people out there dont exactly appreciate the harsh "death penalty" EVE offers, whilst more than a few thrive on it, especially if they're winning.
The sad part is, because of the harsh penalties, emotions can spike up a lot more negatively, sooner, than less harsh PvP-based MMO's.
Also, because the balance is tipped in favor of who has the bigger/better/more ships in EVE, it favors someone who's been in the game quite a while. EVE isnt friendly on newbies enough for most people because of this.
Roughly 70-80% of all MMO players favor a PvE/PvP without consequences based game.
-
Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online |
Asestorian
Domination.
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 16:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: John McDuff
Quote:
Now that doesnÆt necessarily mean that Eve Online is a better MMO than World Of Warcraft. Eve is messed up and broken in all kinds of outrageous ways, and the PvP-heavy spaceship-centric world design puts most people off the idea completely.
I stopped after this. If "PvP-heavy spaceship-centric" is a big part of the expectation of eve putting ppl off the man can only be a hello kitty fantasy fanboi and his story not worth my time.
Actually I think the guy does like EVE. He's just stating facts. EVE's PvP heavy sci-fi theme is not the most appealing thing in the world for the vast majority of MMO players.
---
MOZO
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Verone
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:21:00 -
[6]
Whoever wrote that is a complete spanner, and has very limited knowledge of the way eve works, if at all.
>>> TRIBUTE TO A FALLEN WINGMAN <<<
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Asestorian
Originally by: John McDuff
Quote:
Now that doesnÆt necessarily mean that Eve Online is a better MMO than World Of Warcraft. Eve is messed up and broken in all kinds of outrageous ways, and the PvP-heavy spaceship-centric world design puts most people off the idea completely.
I stopped after this. If "PvP-heavy spaceship-centric" is a big part of the expectation of eve putting ppl off the man can only be a hello kitty fantasy fanboi and his story not worth my time.
Actually I think the guy does like EVE. He's just stating facts. EVE's PvP heavy sci-fi theme is not the most appealing thing in the world for the vast majority of MMO players.
You have to understand, the vast majority of MMO players are casual gamers, who in many cases have never even played many other games before, or have much interest in it. Most of the people I know who play WoW, that is the only game they play, and in many cases, the first.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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John McDuff
Caldari
Jovian Labs
Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Asestorian
Originally by: John McDuff
Quote:
Now that doesnÆt necessarily mean that Eve Online is a better MMO than World Of Warcraft. Eve is messed up and broken in all kinds of outrageous ways, and the PvP-heavy spaceship-centric world design puts most people off the idea completely.
I stopped after this. If "PvP-heavy spaceship-centric" is a big part of the expectation of eve putting ppl off the man can only be a hello kitty fantasy fanboi and his story not worth my time.
Actually I think the guy does like EVE. He's just stating facts. EVE's PvP heavy sci-fi theme is not the most appealing thing in the world for the vast majority of MMO players.
Doesn't really interest me if he likes eve or not, i have a fundamental problem with discussing game mechanics while putting a value on content. Speaking of which - WOW's PVE heavy fantasy theme is not the most interesting thing in the world either :)
Originally by: SoftRevolution
DURF DURF.
translation?
---
"Everyone speaks of my drinking, but never of my thirst"
Everyone can now start bowing down to me in an orderly fashion...
|
Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:25:00 -
[9]
I've been saying it for months, and QFT:
Originally by: Jim Rossignol
Eve is messed up and broken in all kinds of outrageous ways...
[ 11.05.07 11:24:08] (combat) CCP's Lack of Perspective Beam II perfectly strike's CCP's foot, wrecking for 234023029.33 USD.
--
Support fixing the EVE UI
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
You have to understand, the vast majority of MMO players are casual gamers, who in many cases have never even played many other games before, or have much interest in it. Most of the people I know who play WoW, that is the only game they play, and in many cases, the first.
Which is rather funny, 'cause i(a MAJOR MMO player), have found that EVE is probably the first and only casual MMO out there 
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Sublime.
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 16:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
You have to understand, the vast majority of MMO players are casual gamers, who in many cases have never even played many other games before, or have much interest in it. Most of the people I know who play WoW, that is the only game they play, and in many cases, the first.
Which is rather funny, 'cause i(a MAJOR MMO player), have found that EVE is probably the first and only casual MMO out there
They happen to just casually grind. Sometimes they bump too.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:28:00 -
[12]
Quote:
One of EveÆs failures is the obscurity of its aspirational targets û any game wanting wider appeal needs to present this more clearly.
Interesting read. But I disgree wth a couple finer points, including the above. While alot of hte 'ancillary' skills really do just increase your stats by 5% or less, alot of them are necessary to getting into better ships or using better 'items'.
-----------------
Friends Forever
Kill.
BoB.
Dead. |
T'Amber
anomandaris demaleon
Vaccaei Imperial
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 16:31:00 -
[13]
Edited by: T''Amber on 05/11/2007 16:33:59
Originally by: SoftRevolution
Originally by: John McDuff
Quote:
Now that doesnÆt necessarily mean that Eve Online is a better MMO than World Of Warcraft. Eve is messed up and broken in all kinds of outrageous ways, and the PvP-heavy spaceship-centric world design puts most people off the idea completely.
I stopped after this. If "PvP-heavy spaceship-centric" is a big part of the expectation of eve putting ppl off the man can only be a hello kitty fantasy fanboi and his story not worth my time.
DURF DURF.
It's actually a very well balanced article and the author hasn't let his own point of view taint his subject matter.
The replies are interesting as well and I would suggest short 3min cycles of perusing to pass the time 
a n o m a n d a r i s . d e m a l e o n
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
Sadly, the majority of people out there dont exactly appreciate the harsh "death penalty" EVE offers, whilst more than a few thrive on it, especially if they're winning.
The sad part is, because of the harsh penalties, emotions can spike up a lot more negatively, sooner, than less harsh PvP-based MMO's.
Also, because the balance is tipped in favor of who has the bigger/better/more ships in EVE, it favors someone who's been in the game quite a while. EVE isnt friendly on newbies enough for most people because of this.
Roughly 70-80% of all MMO players favor a PvE/PvP without consequences based game.
Yea, he missed a coupple of hte finer points that seperate EVE and WOW. And the big one I feel is how importnat the death loss is..not just to actual podding here, but how harsh it can be to lose a 00 station, what would be his reasource forts out in th wilderness. New people dont want that kind of drama because:
WOW offers a very colorful chat program that can give you some goals to accomplish that are outside the real world.
EVE gives you blood hunger.
hint, people want the latter.
PS - Love that 3rd post, somtimes, its all you can respond to an idiot.
-----------------
Friends Forever
Kill.
BoB.
Dead. |
Karen Serasia
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:32:00 -
[15]
The guy seems to be regurgitating stuff that has already been said before.
No level gaps, newbies and vets can work together effectively, wow has more instant gratification and relies mostly on xp Eve has make-your-own targets and relies on money.
Not really anything new said at all to be honest.
|
T'Amber
anomandaris demaleon
Vaccaei Imperial
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 16:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Stark
I really admire the EvE-Online folks for their persistent skills-based system, I just canÆt seem to stay interested in it past the 14 day trial. 10-20 minutes of intense action followed by 90 minutes of stargate jumping, repeat.
Sounds similar to the last time i had sex, except afterwards I spent 90 minutes trying to get jumpstarted not stargate jump. 
a n o m a n d a r i s . d e m a l e o n
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T'Amber
anomandaris demaleon
Vaccaei Imperial
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 16:58:00 -
[17]
Edited by: T''Amber on 05/11/2007 17:00:08
Originally by: Karen Serasia
The guy seems to be regurgitating stuff that has already been said before.
Not really anything new said at all to be honest.
Yes the content may be old, but that doesn't mean its not new for a reader.
I don't get too much time to read the forums and any posts of similar subject matter have been drowned
beneath all the other thousand threads.
Any links to similar threads please share.
a n o m a n d a r i s . d e m a l e o n
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Arenis Xemdal
Amarr
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:03:00 -
[18]
I read that article last week, and the author is quite the idiot. The fact that WoW is so popular has more to do with Blizzard's penchant for throwing hundreds of developers, millions of dollars, years of development at something until its buffed and shinier than Catherine Bell's glistening tanned body on the flight deck of the USS Enterprise. They took pretty much the worst concepts in MMORPG gaming, and made them more approachable. But at the end of the day, its still a level/xp grind where you bash mobs for phat lewts and preen over high end gear until a new generation of dungeons comes out to render your many hours of grind irrelevant. At the end of the day, you're still keeping customers attracted through addictive and repetitive gameplay rather than social and interactive bonding you might want to see in a virtual world. Hell, at the end of the day, its not even a virtual world - its doing the same exact things Diablo tried only expanding it further.
I am convinced, utterly convinced, that EVE could be just as popular with the same technical support base WoW had, WITHOUT using any of its gameplay elements.
How far back EVE was set because of some early stability, performance, balance and exploit issues is almost frightening to imagine right now. There were points in EVE's history were even tiny simple fixes could have made a massive difference, but were delayed until the next major release.. allowing for up to 6-12 months of game-damaging effect. Its also frightening to imagine what kind of room for expansion and potential EVE still has left in comparison to WoW. And thats just for space. When you throw ambulation and planetary interactions you essentially end up with all of the possible environments that currently exist in our universe, available to developers.
Its one of the reasons I believe EVE developers might be the luckiest bastards in the gaming industry. They essentially get to develop multiple games in the future without constantly laying out the groundwork for each new title, or switching companies.
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Kayna Eelai
Gallente
GNATHIC
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:08:00 -
[19]
it's a very good read. most of us (the eve players) probably knew it and don't see much sense in writing such a text, but the ones of those 8.5million wow players that have been thinking of eve or heard about it, will find a good read in it.
specially this:
Quote:
You might respond to all this and say: ôbut levelling up gives us something to aim for, the skilling in Eve is so much more nebulous, so to speak. ItÆs better to have quests and a magic horse at level 40 I can aim for. That is why WoW has some many millions of people playing it.ö This is correct, and itÆs another reason why the principles, rather than the execution, of Eve Online are worthy of copying. If you were to base your game on Eve youÆd make skills, items, and equipment both aspiration-worthy and customisation-friendly. ItÆs about presentation as much as mechanics. Many of EveÆs skills are little more than percentage stat increases, so any game wanting Warcraftian appeal needs to make more of these skills have direct and obvious ramifications on characters û pets, mounts and transport, even player owned structures and one-off items. One of EveÆs failures is the obscurity of its aspirational targets û any game wanting wider appeal needs to present this more clearly.
which imho is 101% true and discourages many people from playing eve (which from our point of view can be good... or bad)... if they read it, they will know this before trying the game. if they don't they find this out the hard way: eve is too hardcore for most of the people, and it can become pretty much boring on "short term" than the ones who plan to play eve long term.
fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes) |
Kayna Eelai
Gallente
GNATHIC
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 17:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Arenis Xemdal
I read that article last week, and the author is quite the idiot. The fact that WoW is so popular has more to do with Blizzard's penchant for throwing hundreds of developers, millions of dollars, years of development at something until its buffed and shinier than Catherine Bell's glistening tanned body on the flight deck of the USS Enterprise. They took pretty much the worst concepts in MMORPG gaming, and made them more approachable. But at the end of the day, its still a level/xp grind where you bash mobs for phat lewts and preen over high end gear until a new generation of dungeons comes out to render your many hours of grind irrelevant. At the end of the day, you're still keeping customers attracted through addictive and repetitive gameplay rather than social and interactive bonding you might want to see in a virtual world. Hell, at the end of the day, its not even a virtual world - its doing the same exact things Diablo tried only expanding it further.
I am convinced, utterly convinced, that EVE could be just as popular with the same technical support base WoW had, WITHOUT using any of its gameplay elements.
How far back EVE was set because of some early stability, performance, balance and exploit issues is almost frightening to imagine right now. There were points in EVE's history were even tiny simple fixes could have made a massive difference, but were delayed until the next major release.. allowing for up to 6-12 months of game-damaging effect. Its also frightening to imagine what kind of room for expansion and potential EVE still has left in comparison to WoW. And thats just for space. When you throw ambulation and planetary interactions you essentially end up with all of the possible environments that currently exist in our universe, available to developers.
Its one of the reasons I believe EVE developers might be the luckiest bastards in the gaming industry. They essentially get to develop multiple games in the future without constantly laying out the groundwork for each new title, or switching companies.
fanboi much? lol.
fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes) |
Seeing EyeDog
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:12:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Xaen
I've been saying it for months, and QFT:
Originally by: Jim Rossignol
Eve is messed up and broken in all kinds of outrageous ways...
[ 11.05.07 11:24:08] (combat) CCP's Lack of Perspective Beam II perfectly strike's CCP's foot, wrecking for 234023029.33 USD.
and you're still here...can i have your stuff??
_____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey
Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
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Kaakao
Insidious Existence
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:25:00 -
[22]
What I would like to see in WoW is eve like market. WoW has no market to speak of and crafting skills are almost worthless. It takes gazillions of gold or months of time to grind grafring skills to 375 (? I sstopped playing before tbc) and they only give your money back if you get the most rare recipies.
----
wtb signature |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Republic University
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 17:31:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Now that doesnÆt necessarily mean that Eve Online is a better MMO than World Of Warcraft. Eve is messed up and broken in all kinds of outrageous ways, and the PvP-heavy spaceship-centric world design puts most people off the idea completely.
Total and complete moronic drivel right there.
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zwiss
StateCorp
The State
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:31:00 -
[24]
Edited by: zwiss on 05/11/2007 17:33:42
The author of that particular piece of writing has been playing Eve since launch. And, let's face it, the PvP and spaceship stuff *does* put a lot of people off. They'd rather buff their elves.
Oh, and reading the entire article reveals it's pro-Eve, and not pro-WoW at all.
|
Shevar
Minmatar
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:40:00 -
[25]
Originally by: T'Amber
I happened upon an interesting forum thread while browsing the internet for EVE news and media.
It is definitely worth taking a 5min break and reading what WOW players think of EVE along
with the various views on Leveling Up VS Skill Training and Directed Play VS Self Direction
Quote:
"So hereÆs the thing: Eve Online is a better model for making an MMO than World Of Warcraft. If someone, right now, was looking for a way to create an interesting MMO they should take Eve as their mechanical gameplay model, and not WoW."
World of EveCraft
(This link will take you to a thread written by Jim Rossignol (Oct 19, 2007) on the Rock, Paper, Shotgun website)
Quote:
No longer is there level 35 cake you canÆt eat because youÆre only level 30
There is a difference between being able of being the most popular MMO with 6 million subscribers and having the most interesting concept.
Luckily for us I doubt CCP really wants 6 million subscribers, they always have had a niche part of the market and I really hope that they will be content with that.
---
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Aurinkokuningas
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 17:41:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kaakao
What I would like to see in WoW is eve like market. WoW has no market to speak of and crafting skills are almost worthless. It takes gazillions of gold or months of time to grind grafring skills to 375 (? I sstopped playing before tbc) and they only give your money back if you get the most rare recipies.
Pfft, carebear stuff 
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Kayna Eelai
Gallente
GNATHIC
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: zwiss
Oh, and reading the entire article reveals it's pro-Eve, and not pro-WoW at all.
exactly, but most ppl. here didn't make it past the 2nd paragraph before coming back here and flaming away.
fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes) |
Kayna Eelai
Gallente
GNATHIC
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 17:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kaakao
What I would like to see in WoW is eve like market. WoW has no market to speak of and crafting skills are almost worthless. It takes gazillions of gold or months of time to grind grafring skills to 375 (? I sstopped playing before tbc) and they only give your money back if you get the most rare recipies.
lol and how many month does it take to get a eve char into INVENTION exactly, huh?
fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes) |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:47:00 -
[29]
Originally by: zwiss
Edited by: zwiss on 05/11/2007 17:33:42
let's face it, the PvP and spaceship stuff *does* put a lot of people off. They'd rather buff their elves.
That's not the only part of the quoted paragraph that I think is moronic drivel.
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Kayna Eelai
Gallente
GNATHIC
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:50:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 05/11/2007 17:50:08
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
He can be "pro-Eve" and still be a complete moron. There's no necessary contradiction there.
and you know he is a moron coz you've read 3 lines of his 4 pages text, right?
in fact, in my opinion, a moron is some1 who calls others moron.
fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes) |
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