Originally by: N1fty

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Originally by: Plutonian

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Curious: What type of stats would you create for a crystal which would allow access to the other damage types? What ranges would it/they work in?

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I remember a long time ago when T2 ammo was being tested on SISI, CCP had an explosive crystal for Amarr. Minmatar pilots whined to high heaven because it would rip them apart. And so we never got given it.

In my opinion a high damage explosive-only crystal with some massive tracking penalties would be rather useful.

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Originally by: ArtemisEntreri

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Minmatar t1 ammo does naturally less damage than other race's t1 ammo.

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Originally by: Sofring Eternus

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Seriously guys, its not the ships. Its the Lasers.

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Originally by: Sofring Eternus

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Edited by: Sofring Eternus on 15/11/2007 07:37:04
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II
Medium Capacitor Booster II

Heavy Pulse Laser II x7
Medium Nosferatu II

Has 42k effective HP compared to the Hurricanes 40k
Does 612 DPS compared to the Hurricanes 443
Optimal of 7.5km compared to Hurricanes 1.5km both have 5km falloff
Would take the Harbinger 115s to kill Hurricane (repping adds another 20s or so)
Would take the Hurricane 190s to kill Harbinger

Edit: That was in response to post 354.

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Originally by: bloomich

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Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00

Originally by: Goumindong

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You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game.

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I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem.

So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills.

A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank.

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: bloomich

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Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00

Originally by: Goumindong

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You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game.

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I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem.

So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills.

A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank.

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You want to see 37.5% invulns as the base? You want specific hardeners to be 68.75%?

It would break the game

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Well, no where he said the percentage bonus must be the same :)

T2 HArdeners reachign 60% would probably "solve the issue"

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Originally by: Mila Prestoc

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Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 24/11/2007 01:00:09

Originally by: PeacefullNub

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Edited by: PeacefullNub on 24/11/2007 00:07:08
To criticize is always much easier. OP has worked to make the comparisons, has proved them, has printed all this. Has proved on them that there is a problem with amarrs. Make the comparison of all ships (as well as OP) and prove that you are right and he was mistaken (and we shall criticize yours fit btw). While you not made it - all your critics - empty talk.

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No he hasn't, the whole method he's used is flawed, using fictional comparisons that don't reflect real gameplay, if you can't see that its your problem.

First example, he says for his Damage Analysis: First off is a flat out DPS potential for each ship. Resistances are not taken in to account here, neither are fittings (unless it's impossible). Simply close range high damage weapons with three damage mods. Drones are also used.

So all ships limited to using 3 damage mods, ok wise due to stacking penalites, but then NEVER looking at what is fit in the other slots in REAL setups is rediculus. Its where the extra lows vs other armour tankers really comes into play when you can fit extra tank. Since rigs were introduced the biggest advantage goes to specialized ships which when using rigs that avoids stacking penalites (hp rigs) provide the biggest benifit.

If your going to just ignore the other slots lets stick as many damage mods on as possible, see what stupid values you can get on a Typhoon with 3 gyros and 4 bcs... means nothing unless you look at the COMPLETE SETUP, not just "with this setup you get X dps and with this other setup you tank Y dps". The combination of damage, tank, range, cap and tackling mods ect is what makes the ship, not just "my damage setup does so and so and yours does more so my ship sucks" or "my tank setup tanks so and so and yours tanks more so my ship sucks".

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Originally by: daemorhedron

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Originally by: Mila Prestoc

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not my fault amarr have a unfounded generalised reputation of sucking, argue the points I made cos they're valid

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The points (s)he made are indeed valid, and frankly they've pretty much been argued several times but have gone largely ignored.

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Originally by: Xaldor

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I don't think it is a huge problem, damage type is mostly a PvE thing, PvP ships typically have no resistance boosts or heavy resistance boosts which tend to even out the resistances because of diminishing returns of the boost values. Either way, doesn't make much of a difference for PvP.

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Originally by: Xaldor

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When you fight a PvP tank he will have high resists across the board, not 90s every with one open at 0. There is typically only a minor difference in resists, Ie my Drake has about 85% resists across the board, give or take a few percent here or there... what damage type you hit me with is largely irrelevant as you are looking at a trivial difference overall.

You can hit me with Em or thermal or kinetic or explosion it is all the same. For missions and rats there are significant differences in resists, that is the main disadvantage of lasers or hybrids, when you fight something that is em/thermal resistant or kinetic/thermal resistant for hybrids then your dps drops off big time. That is the advantage of missiles and to a lesser extent projectiles for PvE. There should be an insignificant difference for PvP.

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Originally by: Xaldor

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Yea, you're wrong. Your Drake has at the very least a thermal hole and if it doesnt, it probably sucks.

ED: The difference between 85% and 82% is a 20% increase in damage taken. You have holes you just dont know how to identify them.

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Well, I was confusing my Drake with Rokh but here are my two tank ships.

My Drake:

EM: 77.2%
Thermal: 81.8%
Kinetic: 71.9%
Explosive: 81.3%

Less than 10% difference at best.

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Originally by: Xaldor

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While the percentiles are nice for min/maxers in practicality it has no real bearing. I am being shot at by Ship A and Ship B, both ships are capable of doing 1000dps, ship A can choose my weakest resist, Ship B can only hit my strongest resist.

My weakest resist is EM, of the 1k dps I am hit for 228 damage, the other ships hits me for explosive damage and only inflicts 187 damage. While the nerdometer says that is 22% less damage the fact is I can tank 800 dps so wtf does it matter if you are doing 187 ot 228 damage? They can both shoot at me and they are still not going to get anywhere in a hurry.

If there was no tanking in Eve and ships just had finite amount of health be it shields, armour or structure then the parity between damage types and those that can choose and those that can't would have a far greater impact.

It might be more of an issue in very small gang PvP combats but in mass combat it is irrelevant. It is more of a PvE issue, I wouldn't like to be doing missions relying on lasers to do the killing.

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If there was no tanking in Eve and ships just had finite amount of health be it shields, armour or structure then the parity between damage types and those that can choose and those that can't would have a far greater impact.

It might be more of an issue in very small gang PvP combats but in mass combat it is irrelevant. It is more of a PvE issue, I wouldn't like to be doing missions relying on lasers to do the killing.

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Originally by: Jonny JoJo

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Originally by: Goumindong

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I dont agree with the OP

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What is it that you dont agree with?

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Originally by: Jonny JoJo

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I dont understand. Before EANM's, lasers did same damage as they do now. EANM's nerfed laser damage, as everyone who wanted to remain competitive changed their tank setups. So lasers do 25-35% less damage than they used to when they were balanced (calculating the EM potion of extra resist people now have). To deny this now is not logical

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Originally by: Aranbaal

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I switched from my ranged t2 ammo Barrage to my short range t2 ammo hail . which i have to be honest i dont normally carry cause its teh worst ammo in the world ... too many downsides to it faction emp is beter than it but no faction stuff is better than barrage.

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Originally by: Aranbaal

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As for the maelstrom can switch ammo types to find the best one. Hae you ever tried carryin other ammo than crystals, you will find it tanks up massive ammounts of room so just isnt feesable to do when you need to carry cap boosters. Leavin a massive flaw in your point. The only race that truely can carry many different types of ammo at once is amarr, carrying anymore than 2-3 tops in anyother race means you leave no cargo space for your boosters. Also switching to other types of ammo with minmatar guns to break a heavy tank leaves you no longer doin any real dps so still unable to break the tank.

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Originally by: Aranbaal

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As for the maelstrom can switch ammo types to find the best one. Hae you ever tried carryin other ammo than crystals, you will find it tanks up massive ammounts of room so just isnt feesable to do when you need to carry cap boosters. Leavin a massive flaw in your point. The only race that truely can carry many different types of ammo at once is amarr, carrying anymore than 2-3 tops in anyother race means you leave no cargo space for your boosters. Also switching to other types of ammo with minmatar guns to break a heavy tank leaves you no longer doin any real dps so still unable to break the tank.

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Originally by: Aranbaal

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Its fun to post in this threat, all the *****ing that goes on about various problems when the only thing that is even remotly valid is they are cap reliant. 6 minutes runing 8 mega pulse 2 a large armor repper a web and a scram isnt that bad at all. most fights dont last 6 mins, and if its big enough to last that long you are gonna die before you cap out it called primary anyway.

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Originally by: JD 24

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8x megapulse 2 and 1 LAR 2 uses 83 cap a second

Cap recharge + cap 800s gives you a 78 cap a second.

So leaves a drain of 5 cap a second. damn thats real bad means am gonna run till i run out of cap boosters like all active shield tank ships etc... that must be broken.


Damn you gus are funny. In all seriousness fit your ships better people there are better fits out there just waiting for you to find them.

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Originally by: Aranbaal

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So switching to hail means i get to kill my oponent does it ... Yeah but on the flip side of that it means i have crap raneg so may have to move to get into range to hit him, the my 8x 800mm t2s on my maelstrom all fitted with hail ammo = 8x 7% reduction in cap recharge which means my shield tank is gonna fail faster cause my cap takes a week to reacharge, hence making it not worth the effort.

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I have spent most of my gaming time fly allong side mainly all amarr pilots and almost every one of the fit the exact same fit to abaddons when engaging in piracy because it works increadably well.

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Originally by: Marn Prestoc

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I do not agree with the "boost pg by 20% for beams because X ship has it", that would leave very little pg costraints for pulse setups, but of course they can be limited by CPU.

The thing is, lasers were given high cap and fitting to prevent other races using them, then they've been gradually nerfed so really theres no reason to reduce the pg of beams slightly as they're arn't "uber" like they once were. If they arn't "uber" and "overpowered" then other races just won't use them over there racial weapons, so the high fitting constraint doesn't need to be there.

Originally by: SkyCrane

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From what I have experienced and gathered of info it seems the Abaddon is the absolute worst tier 3 BS out there. Harshest fittingrequirements, lowest effective damageoutput and also highest capconsumption compared to total capsize and rechargerate.
Can somebody please prove me wrong on that one?

I just wonder how people can actually call it a "well working shipdesign" when it can't shoot and rep at the same time... Heck, it can't even shoot very lone either with beams fitted.
And now people normally say "Fit more caprechargers or a a capbooster" This is when I say "Gimped setup. It's a prenerfed ship..."

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Fit plates not rep's, your Amarr and get an resistance bonus, not gallente with a rep bonus. There design is to last as long as possible in large gangs where HP tanking is best, then you have low-cap or no-cap options of repairing each other (amarr logistics or repair drones) that receive the benifit from the resistance bonus where a repair bonus does not help remote repping.

HP tanking is viable in PvP, its clearly better than repair tanking when your taking 3000 dps or more due to self repairing not having time to repair more HP than a plated tank would of given.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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As someone who uses lasers in PvP, does your spreadsheet account for the fact that fitting mods/cap are required? Also, it would be fair to put down averave dps over a 5-10 minute period, if you are going to exclude things like fitting mods etc.

I still remember the day I was in 9-9 a 2 hour fleet battle with my Abaddon, able to target freely while others were lagged, but only able to sustain 1 gun due to cap problems.

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Originally by: Dillius Archania

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There have been tons of arguments, many greats ones by Goumindong, and we now have a 33 page thread just chock FULL of ideas, and yet still no response, still nothing from the Devs.

At this point, you'd think they'd start to think, "Hey, these guys have been complaining non-stop. I wonder if there's a reason for that?"

The recent dev blog (which I have not listened to but skimmed the transcript) was apparently a joke at least in terms of Amarrian balance issues.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Jonny JoJo

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You already admited that you have never flown a Nightmare or Paladin, have pvp experience of 1v1 punisher v punisher alt freindly battle, claim to use a freinds account for Amarr battleship and also state that you have Max gallente Skills and decent Minmatar skills but have a "low SP" Amarr alt. And this is how you balance in this discussion?

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I thought it was clear from a glance that the Nightmare was a better ship than the Paladin. Sure there's occasionally surprises, but it seemed so obvious... who knows, maybe I'm right!

And FYI Johnny (god your trolling annoys me on occasion) Goum's had some pretty decent ideas for rebalancing the Amarrian race. He'd be insufferable if any of them ever got implemented though.

-Liang

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Originally by: Blutreiter

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Why does everyone forget about the Augoror?

Hm... 3 turret slots, no damage bonus, 5m^3 dronebay...

And PvP? 2 medslots

One prime example of one really outclassed ship. IMHO it could use a 10 m^3 or even 15 m^3 dronebay without breaking any balance in this game whatsoever.

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Originally by: The Djego

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Paladin/Nightmare is out of the window and not on topic. The Idea was on the Table 1 Month ago by Gumindong with real point of changing Amarr Ships not youst they are better make amarr like them.

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Quote:

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I pointed out the Punisher 1o1 because It was pure fun and a very awsome Amarr PVP experience

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You put this on the table not me, I chat with a Mod of the Forum because we lived in the same area for some time and because of a war we chated mutch so we meet eatch other bevore he became a MOD. Send me a PM with a Killmail on the german Forums or STFU. If you are a Carcal alt don¦t mind you are pointless anyway

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Originally by: Naias

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Yes, this was written with the help of EFT, call me whatever you want but it's blatantly obvious that there is a huge discrepance between the Maller&Moa and the other cruisers, no matter how you turn and twist it.

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Originally by: insidion

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and would rather demand a clearly unbalanced solution based on a faction marauder.

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Originally by: Jonny JoJo

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Paladin and Nightmare are brought in for a reason - both share same methodology. One has more mids and more grid. And the Paladin that has less grid/mids needs fitting mods, damage mods, tracking mods and tank all in the same row.

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Originally by: The Djego

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2. Gedon puts out more Damage on Paper, proved here with a comparebal fitting. Also it has a mutch bigger Range(Optimal) that is a huge advantage in a Gang. The Mega needs Cap for the MWD to get in Range and can start to fire later. In a 1o1 the Mega will beat the Gedon, in 2 Gedons vs 2 Megas it is the other Way around. Afterall you compare a Tier 1 BS with a Tier 2 BS.

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Originally by: The Djego

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Because Jojo simply hoped on this Idea when it first came up here. Telling that all Amarr Ships are crap is yust not right. I quoted you for bringing the Idee earlier in a diffrend Thread. Also it would fix the Cap/Fitting/Ak Option at the same time this would be good. On the other hand it gives the Ships cheaper Fittings and less Amno need. Also what happens to the Ships with 3,5 or 7 Turrets?

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It has a awsome Tank for a Frig. Shure it can¦t do big DPS Numbers but the Tank compared to a Rifter or a Incursus is preaty impressive from my point of view. It is not the I Win button but it has a advantage in Tank against other T1 Frigs without a doubt.

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Originally by: The Djego

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I also used a Rifter with a Cap Injector(without a Web) and a Incursus with only a Plate and MFS and they worked to. Not any Ship has to be the same to work in the same situation. It is all about tradeoffs and the Punisher got a advantage and a tradeoff to.

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Fitted at T1 Ships on a regular basis with T2 Weapons, saving 2-10 M per Ship Fitting(including Amno and Guns) is preaty mutch a advantage. On the Paladin or the Nightmare it is not by simply considering the base price of the ship and its insurance Payout. Also the extra Slots are a huge advantage(even without Overheating aspects) by fitting Remote Reps or Nos/Neuts even when offlined in a full gank Fitting. By a modified % rate of the Bonus on diffrent Ships you slove the 3,5,7 Guns aspect I can agree after rereading your post. I did like the work on the Omen and Maller and Prophecy but you did actualy add 2 or 3 Boni to the new Design(less cap use, more DPS, more Tank/more Cap) instead of yust one that is what looks overpowert to me.

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Originally by: shinsushi

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See Goumingdong, if you would had just proposed a 20% bonus per level instead of that built in 100% bonus, I think more people would have stood behind your Sansha idea. Its not an entirely outlandish bonus, and would ensure that amarrian ship would have fitted nothing but lasers (no more projectiles and other garbage.)

Like the abaddon w/ 5 turrets, 0 launchers and 20% dmg per lvl, still a cap hog, but not as bad as now w/ the same dmg as now.

Either way, you take the time to redo it, I'll take the time to ***** the thread for you.

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Originally by: The Djego

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First of the Fitting advantage. On a T1 Frig, a Omen/Maller or a Gedon it will be a lot more than 10%. Also you need at minimum 2 types of Amno(Scorch/AN MF for Puls as Example) since you have to buy a full crystall in the start this cost matters.

For example

Omen:
- 25% less Cap Need for the guns -> ROF Bonus in the fixed Damage bonus inculded
- 25% more Armor
- Gun Damage: old 4x1.33(ROF Bonus) = 5.32, new 3x1.75 (role Bonus) = 5.25 + 25% Ship Bonus = 6.5
- 2 extra Highs(cause one is not any more a Misslehardpoint)
= 4 new bonuses(Ok the Missle Slot is missing but that do not 23% more Damage)

I agree the Omen needs a boost and a Change but I think this is a bit to mutch compared to the other Tier 2 Cruisers.

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Originally by: The Djego

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I take 2 two exta high Slots into account. Shure Small Nos/Neuts or offlined support Modules are not a big deal but still there and can be handy in some situations(vs a close Range Frig 2 Small Neuts can make a diffrence). Ok it is my point of view but extra slots(mayby not usefull in a Gank or Tank Fitting) are a bonus.

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Originally by: Marn Prestoc

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Geddon/Abaddon are proof the racial design does work, Maller/Omen are failed implementations of the design, does that make the design bad?

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Amarr does have the worst tracking, and this should be made equal with Gallente or Minmatar.

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Originally by: Jonny JoJo

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Approaching a ship to lower transversal is not always possible. You could be double/tripple webbed yourself as other ships have more mids than Amarr.

Go on - Admit it - Amarr trackcing sucks and you know it.

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Originally by: Mila Prestoc

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Nice try at deflecting your statement to another one, but both are still wrong, I guess your numbers just arn't accurate or you need to train your tracking skill.

Weapon Settings

Graph

Yeah, that hit chance is sooooooooo bad compared to the others , I even used t2 close range ammo with the tracking penalty and doesn't come close to 40% missing. Your dread weapon statement is even more incorrect.

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Originally by: The Djego

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Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 14:33:41

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: The Djego

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Dude I know that fit looks like its going to work in theory, but it doesnt. Its subpar to a stabber. Youre forgetting something called agility. That omen setup wont work, a stabber will do the same job million times better.

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It does with Barrage, T2 Guns, and Falloffrigs. Even then it has less Range(and shoots in deep Falloff). Also it runs out of Cap quite fast, has less Drones and less DPS. I can use a Stabber even with T1 Guns and get kills(and the Damage is far subpar to the Omen when shooting at 12-13km).
Well yes the agility is bader compared to the Stabber but I can use the MWD as long as I need it(something the Stabber can¦t) aswell as I can resist Nos/Neuts and can tank more(compared to a Stabber). The stabber can tackle better and run better but when it comes to something called killing a Ship it is quite subpar to a Omen.

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4x named Focused Medium Beams(or T2 Focused Puls with Scorch)
Assault Luncher(usily Kinetic or Termal Missles)

10 MN MWD T2
Medium Cap Booster T2
Warp Disrupter T2(Tracking Computer in Gangs)

Small Armor Repper II
EANM II
DC II
Nanofiber II
named PDU(for Powergrid reasons, aswell as for a little Shild Buffer)

1 Axuillary Truster Rig

3x Small T2 Hobos

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Look, a Munnin with a EANM and DC II is a comedy fit - armour tanking a Munnin and using it like a Rupture is LOL.

You get 20% more DPS out of turrets over a Rupture and a tad less out of drones and better tracking and very good resists vs Amarr and Amarr only. Paying 130M to do marginally then a cruiser you can T2-fit really well for <22M LC is just lol, which is why I'm saying you're citing a comedy setup.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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(b) You are discussing PvE balance. A Bellicose is in every way inferior to anything else, and any Amarr ship will, in fact, kill one. Particularly with lasers.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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A nano-bellicose cannot really kill any other properly fit cruiser, except maybe a Omen and maybe a Stabber who's being too slow. Be serious.

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If you trade EANMs for specific hardeners, you have a problem. Cap. Since there is no concieveable way to sustain cap for a repping hardened setup on a Munnin, you are relying on plates to keep you alive. Not having resists which are good for armour tanking means you're vastly inferior to any other short-range HAC even ignoring the fact you're outdamaged by them.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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bellicose stuff

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Well, they did not reply to the Khanid Mk 2 thread either. They did almost exactly as proposed, and have made a line of awesome ships (yes, they do not use lasers, but Khanid were not meant to use lasers anyway). So don't rule c2) out as a option - they've done it before, and done it very well.

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1) Give 40% cap reduction to small lasers of both types.
2) Replace the 10% laser cap use bonus with a 5% laser damage bonus for all Frigate/Destroyer sized vessels.
3) Replace the Retribution's extra highslot with a midslot - one midslot ships are a joke.
4) Increase base capacitor amount by 5% on all Frigate/Destroyer sized Amarr laser ships to accomodate the lack of final 10% cap use at ship skill V.

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Cruiser/Battlecruiser class ships
1) Give 40% cap reduction to medium lasers of all types.
2) A Bunch of Overpowered Cra

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Originally by: PeacefullNub

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Did they thinked about that amarrs will be most SP heavy race in game?

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Originally by: PeacefullNub

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Khanid has nothing to do with Amarr being skill intensive. All the Khanid changes were awesome, and it only makes you look like an idiot when you whine and ***** about them.

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Im a noob.
maybe you right - how long it takes to learn all rockets and HAM related skills (including generaly dps + range skills)?
And where could i use them beside 1 ceptor 1 af 1 HAC and 1 comand ship?
When i trained gunnery skills i know at least that amarr frigs, then cruisers, then bc, then bs, even dreads need them

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Originally by: PeacefullNub

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It takes for me 154d to learn ham II and rokets + all suport skills at 5

It takes 13d just to use hams II + 17 days to learn support skills at 3-4 lvl.

it takes 23 days to use any other racial AF, ceptor, hac, recon, command (racial frigate lvl 5 + racial cruiser lvl 5).

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if you must to chose:

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Originally by: PeacefullNub

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No - you can chose projektile ships or projektile+missile ships in allmost all categories (how many ships have missile bonuses?). You can easily avoid missiles if you dont whant to train them and still find good turret ship to fly.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Well, OK, not exactly. Truth be told, I remember the thread kindof vaguely, but I do remember Sarmaul did suggest armour-tanking missile ships.

It IS annoying when you get a noob saying 'oooh, nobody wanted Amarr missile ships, booo hooo training'. Khanid with mixed missile/laser slots were a abomination and horribly broken..

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Maybe...

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As for giving the optimal bonus to the 'good ships', well, giving them another damage bonus would overpower them.

Giving them a tracking bonus; no, would really make them too good. Tracking bonuses on long-range guns are incredibly powerful.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Well, yes, it preforms amazingly well. Honestly, the lack of mids (not the lack of firepower or anything, if nothing the Coercer is vastly better then the Gallente and even Caldari dessy) always bothered me for any small gang usage where the Thrashers do a hell of a job, since you can fit a MWD, point and MSE (if you are using ACs) or whatever (if you are using arties). I do feel that that is kindof beyond the scope of the discussion though ;)
What could you give the Coercer instead of cap use? Cap amount seems kindof pointless honestly, more tracking is not needed anyway and would make it too sick, armour resists are rather pointless for a destroyer (although, I guess, could give it 2-3 more seconds of firing before explosion). Hm.

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Prophecy, you mean - anyway, they would make it a vastly better combat ship.

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I think 5% damage on the Maller (in addition to lowering HP requirements a bit and giving the Maller just a bit more fittings, I believe I suggested both) would make it a competitive cruiser. Would it still be somewhat inferior to a Thorax at short-range? Yes. Should it be inferior to a Thorax at point-blank? Yes, of course it damn well should.

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Well, I meant short-range guns which have the capability to hit at medium range. See, give it tracking and it toasts tacklers coming after it.

Give it optimal, and it's silly awesome with beams, haven't considered that (don't use long-rage guns, since I do mostly small gang combat where it's not too feasible to do so). What *can* you give to these ships to not break em? Cap amount?

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Originally by: Meridius Dex

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Well, as promised, it's been over 15 pages since the last time I posted this. So I'm back with my short list of cast-iron solutions to the Amarr issue (all of which ought be ludicrously easy to test/implement - no complex mathematical astrophysics tasks required by CCP).

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Originally by: Meridius Dex

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Originally by: Goumindong

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These solutions dont work at all, let alone being "cast-iron"

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I disagree. They are perfectly viable and ought be investigated by devs, if not immediately implemented.

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Originally by: Meridius Dex

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Goumindong, you seem avowed to keeping Amarr permanently gimped versus other races. That's fine if you have eleventy-billion skill points, as I'm sure you do. But just because you can fly them half-decently with maxed out skills doesn't mean they aren't seriously gimped all the same for the rest of us.

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Originally by: Meridius Dex

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Meridius Dex

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Goumindong, you seem avowed to keeping Amarr permanently gimped versus other races. That's fine if you have eleventy-billion skill points, as I'm sure you do. But just because you can fly them half-decently with maxed out skills doesn't mean they aren't seriously gimped all the same for the rest of us.

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Ill get to the rest of the post later. But i just wanted to quote this because its utterly hilarious.

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Glad you're entertained. I have not been by your replies, of course, as you have still not provided one intelligent, informed reply to any of my stated arguments. So far all you've provided is snide retorts with no substance.

Besides, keep quoting me all you like - at least it keeps this thread bumped.

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Originally by: Meridius Dex

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Yep, as I suspected. No legitimate counter-arguments to any of my 3 main points. Just more dismissive arrogance, with nothing to back it up. Thought you were going to take me apart?

And the primary discussion is in this thread - and I've read every post.

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Originally by: Tenox Teros

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I have first hand knowledge that in a straight up fight, armageddon or abbadon vs megathron or hype, Amarr will come out on top every time (edit: This is with similar sp and fits and not specialized to fight each other). Phoon does great dps, if you have twice the SP as any other ship type requires. Tempest is a joke for dps, but can move. Maelstrom is overpowered

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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No it isn't. Read part #1 and part #2. It says, basically:
"While Amarr ships can beat equally skilled pilots in other races ships, they are inferior to other races ships because I saw that people can beat noob pilots".

This doesn't make sense.

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Originally by: Kil2

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which is just as absolute and wrong. the problem this kind of discussion is that you can pair ships up in eft and do maths or whatever but when it comes down to it every actual fight is going to have too many variables to make an absolute conclusion. sometimes the mega will win. sometimes the geddon will win. so the discussion has to be- does the geddon have an outstanding disadvantage (that it isnt "supposed" to) that prevents it from winning more often than it should.

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Originally by: Meridius Dex

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(What do you have to say now, Goumindong?)

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Originally by: Jonny JoJo

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I thought the point was Amarr has worst close range tracking. No matter how you play the numbers, it ends up the same - Amarr have worst tracking. E.G Missing a Webbed typhoon on 40% of shots with 20m/s transversal at a distancec of 1km. This is nuts - thats like a 40% build in resist all! If a cheap webber is used, then the missed shots is far higher

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Originally by: Jonny JoJo

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Please prove to me that people use mid range pvp.

Every alliance I see have wither close range ships and long range snipers. mid range is obsolete

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