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Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:26:00 - [31] Originally by: sapanda1102222 Stealth bombers will get boosted after the amarr do. They WERE boosted with the Revelations II expansion this summer.
Major Stallion Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:39:00 - [32] i still think the SBs need 4 launcher hardpoints to be effective. 2 Missile Slots and a Bomb Launcher slot is HORRIBLE for the DPS. ________________________________ Originally by: CCP Nozh As soon as people start comparing EVE to real life or battlestar galactica I stop reading.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:40:00 - [33] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: sapanda1102222 Stealth bombers will get boosted after the amarr do. They WERE boosted with the Revelations II expansion this summer. Except for the Caldari one of course. Can't have the Caldari having the best ship in class now can we Gimme my 4th launcher dambit! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:40:00 - [34] Originally by: Major Stallion i still think the SBs need 4 launcher hardpoints to be effective. 2 Missile Slots and a Bomb Launcher slot is HORRIBLE for the DPS. The Manticore at least should have 4 *****ble missile slots CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
RC Denton	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:44:00 - [35] Quote: Speaking as an experienced and very dedicated covops/recon pilot, I'd just like to say that you're asking for two things that the stealth bomber: 1) doesn't need. 2) already has. It could be that you're simply misinterpreting their role - these are not battleship-killers. I know! it's insane, right? They fire battleship missiles, they should be battleship-killers, right? Wrong. Stealth bombers are frigate and drone killers. They exist to obliterate light or lightly armoured targets. Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets. There is no class of ship in the same weight category that can drop such a massive ball of spike damage on somebody so effectively. Battleships, battlecruisers and tech 2 cruisers can soak that spike fairly easily, but pretty much everything else can't... and thus you annihilate them, instantly. Nore do these ships exist for solo stealthy hunting - although they can perform this role very well. They are fleet support, there to effectively and swiftly clear the battlefield of those annoying "tacklers". They should skirt the edges of the warzone, cloaked, until they have identified a target that they wish to annihilate. Then, they uncloak for long enough to strike their prey, before cloaking again so as to search for the next target. They are only "stealthy" so long as they got there first, or so long as their prey is distracted - just as it should be. as for the covops cloak - it really isn't needed. it would just make the ship overpowered. A decently flown stealth bomber goes faster when cloaked than when visible. The one critical advantage to this is that you can align while cloaked. align, uncloak, warp, cloak again when you arrive. While cloaked, you are invulnerable. While warping, you are invulnerable. You should never be visible for long enough to become vulnerable before warping, unless you're shooting at something that will be too dead to shoot back when the missiles hit. Learn well, student. You have now heard the first koan of the Tao of Stealth Bomber. Meditate now upon this lesson. And now I shall meditate on the this kaon of the tao of the stealth bomber: 1) Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets. I can insta-pop poorly fitted t1 frigates, I can drop some massive dmg on drones. I can cause pain to t1 destroyers. To this pearl of wisdom I must ask "So what?". If someone is flying a t1 frigate in 0.0 then they are either a scouting alt or a noob. Any combat ship class can pop these with ease. If you are in empire wars it's the same deal. Who uses t1 destroyers other than for salvaging? Once again pretty much any combat ship can kill a destroyer with the exception of some t1 frigates. Industrials can't fight back, nuff said. My fleet role is to swifty dispatch tacklers and other annoyances? Well considering that precision cruise missiles have an explosion velocity of 1km/s I will do about 0 dmg to almost any and all fast ships. Interceptors, vagabonds, interdictors are all completely invulnerable to my spiky ball of alpha dmg. If I have a wingman who can tackle then I am death to t1 cruisers, but then again so would almost any other ship class cloak or no. If they're well tackled who cares if it takes me 30sec to realign my sensors and start beating on them. With it's targeting range, paper mache tank, and cruise missiles instead of torpedos it seems that this ship is setup to snipe. However in a sniping role I can get 1 maybe 2 volleys off on a ship before they warp out. One of the big reasons behind this is that everything can see you comming because you don't warp cloaked. And again ceptors, dictors, and any other fast ship are completely invulnerable to my damage. Boot to the head Ed Gruberman.
Eventy One	Posted - 2007.11.10 03:36:00 - [36] Signed, signed and signed. Thing is, get hit in a stealth bomber, you die. Fair enough - its a frigate. Where's the balance then? You should hit harder initially as the poster has argued. If its going to be a flying egg - give its something beefier to hit once with. And the idea of making the stealth a bit stealthier is a good one too. How about warping cloaked? Come on guys .. where's the loving? Cheers Eventy One
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.10 05:25:00 - [37] Originally by: RC Denton If I have a wingman who can tackle then I am death to t1 cruisers, but then again so would almost any other ship class cloak or no. Except you wouldn't be doing the dps of half a Raven while, at the same time, being anywhere near as survivable as a Stealth Bomber is when used right. 4+ Stealth Bombers + 2+ Interceptors + 1+ Interdictor = roaming gang that is very deadly and very difficult to pin down and catch. It's not a solo ship, and it's not anti-light ship. 4-5 Stealth Bombers will melt battleships in no time. And with interceptor support they have both tackling and defense if they get attacked by interceptors and the like.
RC Denton	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: RC Denton If I have a wingman who can tackle then I am death to t1 cruisers, but then again so would almost any other ship class cloak or no. Except you wouldn't be doing the dps of half a Raven while, at the same time, being anywhere near as survivable as a Stealth Bomber is when used right. 4+ Stealth Bombers + 2+ Interceptors + 1+ Interdictor = roaming gang that is very deadly and very difficult to pin down and catch. It's not a solo ship, and it's not anti-light ship. 4-5 Stealth Bombers will melt battleships in no time. And with interceptor support they have both tackling and defense if they get attacked by interceptors and the like. True a roaming gang full of stealth bombers with a dictor and a couple ceptors could bring the pain. However you are not doing near half the dps of a raven because ravens get an ROF bonus which increases their DPS significantly. Yet for some reason the roaming gangs I see these days are not configured this way. In fact the roaming gangs I've seen the goons use are composed primarily of nano-FOTM ships vagas etc, and force recon ships. 4-5 stealth bombers without logistics support will get melted by a BS in no time as well. Take 4 of them up against a cruise fitted Raven with 3 t2 BCS I dare ya esp after the damp nerf. They have 0 tank, none, nada,zero, zilch. Heck they don't even get real t2 resists.
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui	Posted - 2007.11.10 10:18:00 - [39] Originally by: RC Denton And now I shall meditate on the this kaon of the tao of the stealth bomber: 1) Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets. I can insta-pop poorly fitted t1 frigates, I can drop some massive dmg on drones. I can cause pain to t1 destroyers. To this pearl of wisdom I must ask "So what?". If someone is flying a t1 frigate in 0.0 then they are either a scouting alt or a noob. Any combat ship class can pop these with ease. If you are in empire wars it's the same deal. Who uses t1 destroyers other than for salvaging? Once again pretty much any combat ship can kill a destroyer with the exception of some t1 frigates. Industrials can't fight back, nuff said. ah... it would seem that I forgot to mention tech 2 frigates and interdictors in the list of things you tear out of the sky. I am not kidding here. Oh, and what the bloody hell are you doing using precision cruise missiles? Get yourself some Caldari Navy ones instead. Let me explain - this ship is NOT a solo hunter. it simply isn't it is a fleet support platform dedicated to the destruction - or at least epic spiking - of all the things your lumbersome pals in their battleships aren't capable of dealing with easily. That is the stealth bomber's role, and it is one at which it excels. The one common thread I've tended to notice amongst stealth bomber complainants (and yes, I realise that this is a horrible generalization but please bear with me) is that very few if any of them are team players. Which is unfortunate, because the SB is a team ship. You must un-learn what you have learned, student. The way of the Bomber is the way of patience. Remember - though the patient hunter always gets his prey, the hunter must also be careful not to choose a prey that can turn on him and stomp him flat. And it is best to strike while the prey is distracted by something else, just in case. Oooommmmm.... - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Rauxes Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.10 10:39:00 - [40] Originally by: Stitcher A decently flown stealth bomber goes faster when cloaked than when visible. The one critical advantage to this is that you can align while cloaked. align, uncloak, warp, cloak again when you arrive. You really had to tell people this, didn't you?

Delichon Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.10 10:48:00 - [41] Edited by: Delichon on 10/11/2007 10:50:33 Originally by: Stitcher A decently flown stealth bomber goes faster when cloaked than when visible. The one critical advantage to this is that you can align while cloaked. align, uncloak, warp, cloak again when you arrive. Actually it just takes Cov. Ops 3 to be able to pull this trick. (so that your max speed while cloacked is above 75% of your max uncloacked speed) :) But yeah - remove the scan. res. penalty and improve bombs. I think this would be enough to make SB shine in MORE types of situations that ATM.
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.10 10:53:00 - [42] Originally by: RC Denton My fleet role is to swifty dispatch tacklers and other annoyances? Well considering that precision cruise missiles have an explosion velocity of 1km/s I will do about 0 dmg to almost any and all fast ships. Interceptors, vagabonds, interdictors are all completely invulnerable to my spiky ball of alpha dmg. And this is the core problem with Stealth Bombers. Against turrets, you need to plot a proper course to keep your transversal up. Against missiles, just slap your MWD on and ignore them completely. And you can expect 95% of the ships you should be shooting in a Stealth Bomber to have a Microwarp Drive fitted...
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:02:00 - [43] Originally by: RC Denton 1) A stealth bomber is supposed to be stealthy. When you warp in everyone can see you comming that is not very stealthy IMHO. What you cando with that is warp in to where they can't reach you, cloak, move around so they can't catch you.... And put the fear of God into them. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:58:00 - [44] I dunno if it's me... but when I reinstalled the game recently I needed to reset all my settings in overview. cov-ops and recons aren't by default; it seems, chosen to show up in overview. Not sure if this is a true case... if it is... it doesn't seem to have any real effect. Frankly one... you need to be the usual 100km away from anything roughly. Being close simply isn't an option. Using range at least helps in that you will likely be outside the strike range of your target. Problem being... no warp scrambling.. they see your missles coming and they get out of dodge before you can pop them. The suggestion of increasing "alpha strike" damage simply won't and can't happen. Soon as you make these guys capable of destroying haulers and such with 1 volley... they become the extremly cheaper suicide bombing tools. Currently they use ravens and such. They only suicide bomb when they know you'll make 100mil or more perhaps. Replace them with the 15mil 1 volley pop of a stealth bomber... it would mean far more suicide bombing in hi sec. Now my setups pretty much run a few sensor boosters(usually 2) so the whole cloaking device ruining the scan resolution deal doesn't matter. So that really doesn't need to be changed. Covert ops cloaking device. Now this is the thing that must be changed. Seriously... HOW DO YOU FIND THE STEALTH BOMBER IN THE ITEM DATABASE?? ITEM DATABASE -> SHIPS -> COVERT OPS It's under cov ops... but it cant use the covert ops cloaking device? I notice in the thread that a number of people think the ship would become overpowered? How the hell... Anyone quick on their toes, and/or expecting you, could end you so quickly... or simply get away. Bombs should honestly be just severed and added to some other ship. Perhaps a new ship class also within cov-ops. While named simply a bomber. Once they figure out how to actually make bombs usable. On top of that you could setup the actual bomber ship to be far more effective in the bombing role... AFAIK it takes something like 4 bombs to kill most things that are untanked. Due to sizes or sheer amount of HP of those ships that are within the correct size. Stealth bombers on the otherhand can only at best do something like 2 bombs at once. On top of this... when do you ever come up against something that isn't tanked... the speed tanks will be out of the 20km range quickly i suspect. Back to stealth bombers... you really need a missle velocity bonus on the ship. Perhaps missle velocity goes up while flight time goes down. Basically making it so you wouldn't have an insane range of like 249km or something. Though that sounds certainly intriguing. I doubt that'd be an option however. On the otherhand CCP has been happy about taking smaller class roles and making them larger. PErhaps we move up to a cruiser sized stealth bomber. One which uses torpedoes with the new upgraded changes to torps. Perhaps that's something plausible and interesting. A sort of HEAVY stealth bomber which is designed more so to be a battlecruiser and cruiser pwner. While being a significant issue for battleships also.
IamBen Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.10 13:08:00 - [45] the alpha strike bonus is a bad idea, the bombs are supposed to do that even though they dont work. Also, you dont want a ship that can just insta pop things, that will get lame quick Yeah, stealth bombers should be able to fly around cloaked, i dont understand why they cant now. Also... mass reduction, jeez they are slow :)
Arachidamia The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:11:00 - [46] For a stealth bomber, it fails both at being stealthy and a bomber. But a covops cloak would finally allow it to be a stealth based ship, outside of a stationary ambush.
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Arachidamia For a stealth bomber, it fails both at being stealthy and a bomber. But a covops cloak would finally allow it to be a stealth based ship, outside of a stationary ambush. thereby more or less completely negating the role of the covops frigate... - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:46:00 - [48] Thats the core of the problem really, the Cov'ops frigate is holding them back. Perhaps ensuring that a Stealth Bomber could never fit a probe launcher would finally allow us to have a covert scout and a covert bomber.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.10 16:42:00 - [49] Originally by: RC Denton True a roaming gang full of stealth bombers with a dictor and a couple ceptors could bring the pain. However you are not doing near half the dps of a raven because ravens get an ROF bonus which increases their DPS significantly. Ravens get a 5% to rate of fire per battleship skill level. Stealth Bombers get 5% to damage per racial frigate skill level and an additional 5% to damage (for a specific damage type) per Covert Ops skill level. So, if we assume a Raven that doesn't use it's remaining 2 high slots (after filling its launcher slots), a Stealth Bomber has a dps that is higher than half of a cruise fitted Raven's dps. Quote: Yet for some reason the roaming gangs I see these days are not configured this way. In fact the roaming gangs I've seen the goons use are composed primarily of nano-FOTM ships vagas etc, and force recon ships. We used to do them now and then in Agony (I was in Agony Unleashed until recently). They work very well most of the time. Quote: 4-5 stealth bombers without logistics support will get melted by a BS in no time as well. Take 4 of them up against a cruise fitted Raven with 3 t2 BCS I dare ya esp after the damp nerf. They have 0 tank, none, nada,zero, zilch. Heck they don't even get real t2 resists. Their tank is range and EWar. They orbit at 60 km. If they get hit, they warp. And the only way they can get hit in most situations is with drones auto aggressing and with FoF missiles. Those will all go for the nearest aggressing target though, and that's the interceptors. The real danger for them is interceptors and similar ships, which is why they really need the interceptor support to keep those away.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2007.11.11 01:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Thats the core of the problem really, the Cov'ops frigate is holding them back. Perhaps ensuring that a Stealth Bomber could never fit a probe launcher would finally allow us to have a covert scout and a covert bomber. stealth bomber + recon probe launcher = basically no cpu left to do jack****. Which means they stealth bomber just lost a load of bonuses toward scan time and such. Nobody will ever do any such thing. Just absurd to think that doing this would make any such change.

Acinonyx Jubatus Minmatar International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.11 02:47:00 - [51] There's nothing wrong with bombers, yeah bombs need tweaking like stated, but I've never used them before. I absolutely love bombers, even if they're "limited". You've got missile travel time, which sucks in its own, but it's something you get used to eventually. Specially when you see your ammo fly off into the "wind" wasted for the umpteenth time. Can't warp cloaked, big deal, I find that lack of ability fine seeing as you can get a wonderful 56% speed increase while cloaked with an improved cloak. However it does hinder some tactics, namely with bombs. Damage seems about spot on for a frig to be doing, and the scan resolution penalty is fine too. You can have an uber locker if you don't want a cloak, you want to be able to hide and pounce, yet rehide? That's fine, but you can't insta lock and spew in under a second for frigs. It's not that bad either, roughly 2-3ish seconds for an inty, which is comparable to a 3 second penalty on a cov ops. They're pretty useful as is, they aren't the greatest asset to have, compared to a inty getting points on targets for example, but no one will scoff at you for sitting in one either like they would in the past. They're lethal, they're also vulnerable, it's a dance of death, it takes luck/skill to fly one effectively. <3 bombers, leave them be, unless something major changes... Sides I dislike the price increase they got.
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.11 03:49:00 - [52] In both their current state and the changes on SiSi, they currently rank as 'suicide bombers' more than anything. The last rework was a great idea in theory but they still fall way short of what they should be. Their agility in particular is a total 'wtf' for a frigate, and I still can't believe that they can't use the covops cloak. Bomb cost doesn't really bother me all that much. I could see a 50% reduction in cost, but I think it's ultimately fair for what it can do. /signed PLEASE rework this class properly.
Arachidamia The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.11 04:23:00 - [53] Originally by: Stitcher thereby more or less completely negating the role of the covops frigate... I suppose it would... if you overlook the scan time bonus of the covops frigate, the better cpu of the covops, the increased agility of the covops and the increased speed of the covops.... But yeah, aside from those minor things. You're right.
DiseL Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2007.11.11 07:26:00 - [54] A couple of observations here. We fly Stealth Bomber gangs frequently. 100km from your target why? Missile velocity on a SB is absolutely crap. 5500ms cruise missiles with max velocity skills shooting at a target 100km away? Do the math. It does work but you need a dictor or inties holding down the target for a long time while your missiles slow boat to the target. On top of that you have to set visible and vulnerable that entire time in order for your missiles to hit the target. Most of our guys prefer the close range engagement. Approach the target to within about 8-10km, align to a celestial at full speed, decloak, dual sensor boost, dual damp, missiles arrive in less than 2 secs and target is dead. 99% of the time they never have a chance to even attempt to target you. This obviously won't work with a large target that takes more than one volley. This works well with anything below a destoyer including interceptors if they aren't at speed. About the only thing I would love to see added to the SB is a missile velocity bonus. Nothing to great, maybe %5 per covert ops level.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.11 07:53:00 - [55] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 11/11/2007 07:53:59 Originally by: Jason Edwards stealth bomber + recon probe launcher = basically no cpu left to do jack****. Which means they stealth bomber just lost a load of bonuses toward scan time and such. Nobody will ever do any such thing. Just absurd to think that doing this would make any such change. Problem is that all the role needs is a cov-ops cloak, probe launcher, and speed. Meaning the Stealth Bomber would be almost as good in this role as the Cov-Ops, with the exception of scan bonus, and still able to fit a pair of cruise launchers for laughs. So I wouldn't say it was absurd to think anyone would do such a thing at all. Indeed since there is fitting room for an MWD, cov-ops cloak, recon probe, and bomb launcher I suspect a lot of people would do it. I know I would.
TRYPTIC The Flaming Sideburn's Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.11 14:44:00 - [56] In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets. If the target isn't MWD'ing he takes full damage, regardless of ship size.
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.11.11 17:04:00 - [57] I'd like some more options for BCUs that would also give SBs some extra capability. Currently, a BCS II gives about 10% to damage and 10% to rof. I'd like 2 additional versions of the BCS (maybe even use scripts). One does 20% damage and 0% rof (less actual dps, much higher alpha). The other would do about 17-18% rof.
Multras Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.11 17:31:00 - [58] No dont change SBs. They are a ship that takes some skill, and is able to insta pop the targets it is designed to take. The damp nerf shouldnt hurt it, just load the distance script and it should be the same. Thanks to EVE Art Store for the sig.
Durisis	Posted - 2007.11.13 08:27:00 - [59] bombers are supposed to be the antiblob/cruiser+ size weapon. design one: make blobs risky to use. design two: a cost effective solution againt large armored targets. you can tell by the talk in this thread that they've strayed from their intended role.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.13 15:39:00 - [60] Originally by: Major Stallion i still think the SBs need 4 launcher hardpoints to be effective. 2 Missile Slots and a Bomb Launcher slot is HORRIBLE for the DPS. if you have a bomb launcher, your job is to bomb, not shoot... doing 6500 alpha to 50 ships sounds pretty decent if you ask me. _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.



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