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RC Denton
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Posted - 2007.11.09 03:22:00 -
[1]
Like the af the Stealth Bomber lacks a role. I love the concept, I love the ship, I fly one all the time even though it's next to useless. Bombs would be great, if they cost 1/100th what they do now. This ship desperately needs a buff. A stealth bomber should be able to close to insta pop pretty much anything of it's size class since it really only gets on shot. I think it needs the following buffs:
1) Be able to use the cov ops cloak. A stealth bomber is supposed to be stealthy. When you warp in everyone can see you comming that is not very stealthy IMHO.
2) Get an alpha strike bonus. Their DPS doesnt' need to go up but the initial alpha strike needs a buff so it can actually do damage to things in a solo role. I know it's bad to talk about the real world, but stealth ships are for the most part solo machines.
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Caladariq
Caldari
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.11.09 03:44:00 -
[2]
signed.
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.09 04:14:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Flex Nebura on 09/11/2007 04:15:38
Im particularly worried about the Sensor Dampener Nerf..
SDs was the only thing keeping the bombers alive long enough to do much of anything. And even then you had a nagging feeling that you could have brought a better ship for the job.
Seems to me, people are flying stealth bombers for the idea of a stealth bomber, rather than the reality of stealth bombers.
All the while through the PVP tournament I heard the comentators saying they did the same damaga as a raven. thats kinda true as far as alpha strike goes.
but the missiles take twice as long to hit (from the same range). And once you get past the alpha you have half the RoF and if you have to cloak and reposition after each shot the damage goes down even further.
There isnt much a single stealth bomber is a threat to. And in a gang any other ship would probably be more useful. The HP buff from a while back made sure of that.
They are a nightmare to fit, and if you get locked you are dead.
And yet I still love my Manticore. Even after the damage got nerfed (HP boost).
Even after it lost its uniquenes (Balancing of racial SBs). And probably after the Dampener nerf.
Small note on Bombs, Never tried them, but I like the idea. Especially the new part.. Where you can coast them into the enemy fleet.. The feedback from those that have tried them is a bit disheartening though.
I hope CCP will show Stealth Bombers a little of the love that a lot of bomber pilots have for their ship.
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Taak Coram
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Posted - 2007.11.09 04:18:00 -
[4]
Signed.
I love my SB (still training though) but I wish I could use a covops cloak. I don't so much mind having to be part of a group (I rather like the idea, group pwnage  ), but being able to solo things of its size class would be nice.
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.09 04:22:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: RC Denton
1) Be able to use the cov ops cloak. A stealth bomber is supposed to be stealthy. When you warp in everyone can see you comming that is not very stealthy IMHO.
2) Get an alpha strike bonus. Their DPS doesnt' need to go up but the initial alpha strike needs a buff so it can actually do damage to things in a solo role. I know it's bad to talk about the real world, but stealth ships are for the most part solo machines.
1) aaaah every stealth bomber pilots wet dream
2) well I suppose a role bonus like 100% damage and 50% penalty to RoF should do the job 
hmm guess we would have trouble finding targets then... as everyone would be flying them 
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.09 05:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Flex Nebura on 09/11/2007 05:03:15
Just had to post again, cause I love the ship so very very much.
I think the reason why this ship is loved so much by some of the pilots in eve is due to the aggresive nature of the ship.
Its shoot first or go shopping for implants.
And I think the main reason it can be a frustrating ship to fly is because we have to wait for the targets to present themselves. And then we often have to wait for them to do something careless, like not being alligned or or to be distracted by something shiny.
Guess that applies mostly to solo bombers or pure bomber gangs and I guess thats not exactly how they were intended. Though its not much use im getting out of my cloaking device in a fleet.
I just watched "House of Prawn II" again.. and while its a great vid and it makes me want to jump straight into my manti, I still cant help thinking: But what if they were flying something else.. Lets say Ravens fitted just like stealth bombers.
And the only reason not to do so, besides the love of bombers is, the targeting speed. (and to some degree cost, though a raven is cheap if insured)
Guess we all fly them for the thrill. Knowing we are just seconds away from being dead, but at the same time only moments away from a glorious victory.
I expect to see more bomber pilots once we get black ops ships.. I just hope they can still do their job with less dampening to keep them flying.
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TheG2
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.09 05:26:00 -
[7]
I would enjoy my Nemesis being useful for once :\
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Glengrant
Minmatar
TOHA Heavy Industries
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.11.09 05:52:00 -
[8]
Stealth Bombers are my favourite ships. I'm well known in my corp for using Manticore for everything besides mining and hauling.
And I have no idea what you guys are talking about when you call it useless or that it needs a role.
For most of the time I didnt't even bother to fit a cloak at all. I usualy don't bother with the SD either.
Offense: Half Raven
Defense: Tinfoil
That's the charm of the ship. Deal with it.
Actually better than a Raven when you shoot at small ships due to resolution bonus. let's not forget that it is not very expensive.
Bombs are a nice option for special fleet ops - but not really important for the enjoment of this fine ship class.
Fit a Sensor Booster (or 2) - gank from long distance. I deal plenty of damage from 150 km.
As long as I keep moving and keep range BS rats can't hit me except to tickle me for fun. Smaller ships die on approach.
I solo-rat 1.25 m bounty rats in Manticore.
For pvp - yes - need to wait in hiding or work with fleet and pick support ships at range.
It's a very versatile and powerful ship at relatively low cost that dies fast of you allow it to get hit. (Don't warp into lvl 4 mission Recon 3 toxic cloud either :-) )
It's good and balanced the way it is. The bombs price/performance might need a bit more tweaking - but that's not highly important.
The only change I'd like to see is that the Manticore (any SB) should not have to be present/visible for its missiles to explode. That's just silly.
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Cold Sleeper
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Posted - 2007.11.09 06:32:00 -
[9]
I love the idea of stealth bomber, I'm training for it now. So if you have any tips for a noob please post them for me.
Educating the Eve players, one merchant at a time
non consensual is the only way for me ^^ |
Praxis1452
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Posted - 2007.11.09 06:37:00 -
[10]
Stealth bombers need to be able to hit with their missiles while cloaked. uncloak-passive target-cloak. Hit. They don't need to 1-shot anything if they can go for 2 volleys. Most people won't catch it the first time. They'll know they are being aggressed but they don't actually see you. The 2nd time they have a chance to lock if auto-lock isn't on.
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Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.09 09:09:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Stitcher on 09/11/2007 09:12:58
Originally by: RC Denton
Like the af the Stealth Bomber lacks a role. I love the concept, I love the ship, I fly one all the time even though it's next to useless. Bombs would be great, if they cost 1/100th what they do now. This ship desperately needs a buff. A stealth bomber should be able to close to insta pop pretty much anything of it's size class since it really only gets on shot. I think it needs the following buffs:
1) Be able to use the cov ops cloak. A stealth bomber is supposed to be stealthy. When you warp in everyone can see you comming that is not very stealthy IMHO.
2) Get an alpha strike bonus. Their DPS doesnt' need to go up but the initial alpha strike needs a buff so it can actually do damage to things in a solo role. I know it's bad to talk about the real world, but stealth ships are for the most part solo machines.
Speaking as an experienced and very dedicated covops/recon pilot, I'd just like to say that you're asking for two things that the stealth bomber:
1) doesn't need.
2) already has.
It could be that you're simply misinterpreting their role - these are not battleship-killers.
I know! it's insane, right? They fire battleship missiles, they should be battleship-killers, right?
Wrong.
Stealth bombers are frigate and drone killers. They exist to obliterate light or lightly armoured targets. Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets.
There is no class of ship in the same weight category that can drop such a massive ball of spike damage on somebody so effectively. Battleships, battlecruisers and tech 2 cruisers can soak that spike fairly easily, but pretty much everything else can't... and thus you annihilate them, instantly.
Nore do these ships exist for solo stealthy hunting - although they can perform this role very well. They are fleet support, there to effectively and swiftly clear the battlefield of those annoying "tacklers". They should skirt the edges of the warzone, cloaked, until they have identified a target that they wish to annihilate. Then, they uncloak for long enough to strike their prey, before cloaking again so as to search for the next target. They are only "stealthy" so long as they got there first, or so long as their prey is distracted - just as it should be.
as for the covops cloak - it really isn't needed. it would just make the ship overpowered.
A decently flown stealth bomber goes faster when cloaked than when visible. The one critical advantage to this is that you can align while cloaked. align, uncloak, warp, cloak again when you arrive. While cloaked, you are invulnerable. While warping, you are invulnerable. You should never be visible for long enough to become vulnerable before warping, unless you're shooting at something that will be too dead to shoot back when the missiles hit.
Learn well, student. You have now heard the first koan of the Tao of Stealth Bomber. Meditate now upon this lesson.
-
The game is not the problem.
The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
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Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2007.11.09 09:10:00 -
[12]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=625194
->My Vids<- |
Jack Thurner
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2007.11.09 09:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Stitcher
Stealth bombers are frigate and drone killers. They exist to obliterate light or lightly armoured targets. Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets.
Can you tell all the frigate pilots to stop using MWD:s then, so i'm not dealing 0,1 dmg to them? :P
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Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.09 09:22:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Stitcher on 09/11/2007 09:23:40
Edited by: Stitcher on 09/11/2007 09:22:41
Originally by: Jack Thurner
Originally by: Stitcher
Stealth bombers are frigate and drone killers. They exist to obliterate light or lightly armoured targets. Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets.
Can you tell all the frigate pilots to stop using MWD:s then, so i'm not dealing 0,1 dmg to them? :P
They're called "stasis webifiers" mate....
better yet, they're called "friends who fly minmatar recon ships"...
If you web an MWDing ship, that MWD becomes a liability, as suddenly that frigate has the sig radius of a battleship, with none of the speed to counter it. Result? *SPLAT*.
-
The game is not the problem.
The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2007.11.09 09:27:00 -
[15]
It's interesting that they don't get the cov-ops cloak, but, if they did, you know what the next whine would be?
"Bombers get a 125% speed bonus!!"
or
"What the -peep- they nerfed my speed bonus on bomber!"
That's the first.
Then would come "Why can't recons fit cov-ops cloak too?!"
That's second, and many more i would assume.
Sure, i'd love a cov-ops cloak on a bomber too, but, it isn't as simple as "let's allow it".
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Janjan Jansen
Amarr
Primal Element
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.09 10:16:00 -
[16]
With my current setup i get about 2400 damage alpha strike isn't that good enough? Train your skills a bit and they are deadly. Btw a ship with Cov-ops Cloak need to wait a couple of seconds before you can start locking a Stealth bomber can do that as soon as it decloaks. And only it's signal resolution is nerfed by fitting a Cloak so with a sensor booster you fix that.
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Zakgram
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Then would come "Why can't recons fit cov-ops cloak too?!"
Some can...
And of those that can't, they don't get any cloak bonus at all so no speed bonus, no "can immediately target" bonus.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:05:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 09/11/2007 11:06:28
Stealth Bombers are good ships. Adding cov ops cloaks would make them overpowered.
With a small gang of them supported by a few interceptors, and possibly an interdictor, they are awesome.
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Stogee
Gallente
Grog Gluggers
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:18:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Stogee on 09/11/2007 11:19:03
In their current state theres nothing stealthy about the stealth bomber.
Supposedly, according to the great wisdom of CCP, Stealth Bombers are now anti-blob devices for fleet warfare. A Stealth Bomber that cant use a covert ops is more of an ambush predator, i.e. sit somewhere, cloak and hope a fleet comes along.
Not going to happen.
Unless you know exactly where an enemy fleet is moving and head to a location they must pass through and set up shop there. And theres no way you can realistically warp in on a large fleet undetected, you'd get insta-popped before being able to deploy a bmb.
Not very Bomberish.
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Gner Dechast
Gallente
Flashman Services
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:58:00 -
[20]
As a full-time stealth bomber pilot, I would say that they don't need much boosting. Only thing that I might want to see, would be the scan resolution penalty taken away from fitting the cloak, but that's all.
It's not solo ship, nor should it ever be. Always fly with a wingman, or two. Preferrably with an interdictor, and you two can take down pretty much anything from frigates to battleships (the most skilled pilots and/or the tanking bonus ships may be unbreakable tho).
It's the very kind of "edge of your seat" fighting, flying a paper kite that literally evaporates underneath you in 1 or 2 salvos (depending what shoots). You either retain the tactical control of the engagement, or you lose. ....and it's the best kind of combat I've gotten for a looooong time in Eve.
Since the last boost they go, I see no need to buff these anymore. The obsene damp nerf will hurt bombers very badly thou and narrow the tactical alternatives even further, but they still won't become dead weight.
If you can't get it to perform, first study what's wrong in you and your way of using it, and if you can't see any, try asking help - only after that start suggesting boosts to a ship class, IMO. Alternatively, don't use it.
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Sister Impotentata
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:28:00 -
[21]
So as someone who has never yet flown a Stealth Bomber, is it fair to generalize:
If you want the SB to be like a B-2, invisible to the world, raining death upon unwitting foes; you'll be disappointed.
If you want the SB to be like a U-Boat, carefully picking targets, maneuvering to advantage, taking a shot (and maybe a ballsy second shot), and slinking away again; you'll have fun.
-----
TANSTAAFL
Originally by: Hostess
Deconstructing the Twinkie is like trying to deconstruct the universe.
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Falst
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:33:00 -
[22]
Bombers certainly have their role :
House of Prawn II
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Harry Paratesteas
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:39:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Harry Paratesteas on 09/11/2007 12:40:07
Adding a sensor booster should give you enough range to be a sniper, with good enough skills. It'll surprise small ships dumb enough not to do a show info on it. They'll think ah small ship 125 out, no chance at targeting me. When you start to lock, you'll probably get them saying "WTF!?", then when your cruise missles hit them, then it's "WTFPWNBBQ, warp off, warp off"
In a fleet op, I agree that they should be on the fringe of the battle picking off fighters, frigs, dictors, ewar cruisers, etc. Bombs are are good if you have more than 1 SB in fleet. If there's a squad of 5-10 SBs with bombs fitted and can coordinate a attack on a enemy fleet, say around a dread or carrier, with it's 15km dmg radius. 10 bombs going off should destroy any small ships hanging around the Cap ship.This should also give you enough time to get away, as the enemy would probably be dumbfounded as to what happen.
No they don't need to fit a Cov Op Cloak, but do take away the scan penalty when fitting one, preferably T2
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Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Harry Paratesteas
Edited by: Harry Paratesteas on 09/11/2007 12:40:07
Adding a sensor booster should give you enough range to be a sniper, with good enough skills. It'll surprise small ships dumb enough not to do a show info on it. They'll think ah small ship 125 out, no chance at targeting me. When you start to lock, you'll probably get them saying "WTF!?", then when your cruise missles hit them, then it's "WTFPWNBBQ, warp off, warp off"
In a fleet op, I agree that they should be on the fringe of the battle picking off fighters, frigs, dictors, ewar cruisers, etc. Bombs are are good if you have more than 1 SB in fleet. If there's a squad of 5-10 SBs with bombs fitted and can coordinate a attack on a enemy fleet, say around a dread or carrier, with it's 15km dmg radius. 10 bombs going off should destroy any small ships hanging around the Cap ship.This should also give you enough time to get away, as the enemy would probably be dumbfounded as to what happen.
No they don't need to fit a Cov Op Cloak, but do take away the scan penalty when fitting one, preferably T2
I rather have the passive locking module active on the SB.. so when you decloak you can use a dampner shoot a folly of missles and then cloak again.. Just like the bomb..
as now other can lock you over 120km in a couple of sec..
->My Vids<- |
Harry Paratesteas
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:58:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Garia666
I rather have the passive locking module active on the SB.. so when you decloak you can use a dampner shoot a folly of missles and then cloak again.. Just like the bomb..
as now other can lock you over 120km in a couple of sec..
That does sound like a good setup. I'll try it. Too bad sensor damps are getting hit by the nerf bat. They have saved my ship uncountable times.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 13:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sister Impotentata
So as someone who has never yet flown a Stealth Bomber, is it fair to generalize:
If you want the SB to be like a B-2, invisible to the world, raining death upon unwitting foes; you'll be disappointed.
If you want the SB to be like a U-Boat, carefully picking targets, maneuvering to advantage, taking a shot (and maybe a ballsy second shot), and slinking away again; you'll have fun.
Not really. You won't be killing all that much that way. Just annoying people. In my experience, it's the small roaming gangs of Stealth Bombers with some interceptor support where they really shine. Deadly and difficult to catch.
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Malcanis
High4Life
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.09 13:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Stitcher
Edited by: Stitcher on 09/11/2007 09:12:58
Originally by: RC Denton
Like the af the Stealth Bomber lacks a role. I love the concept, I love the ship, I fly one all the time even though it's next to useless. Bombs would be great, if they cost 1/100th what they do now. This ship desperately needs a buff. A stealth bomber should be able to close to insta pop pretty much anything of it's size class since it really only gets on shot. I think it needs the following buffs:
1) Be able to use the cov ops cloak. A stealth bomber is supposed to be stealthy. When you warp in everyone can see you comming that is not very stealthy IMHO.
2) Get an alpha strike bonus. Their DPS doesnt' need to go up but the initial alpha strike needs a buff so it can actually do damage to things in a solo role. I know it's bad to talk about the real world, but stealth ships are for the most part solo machines.
Speaking as an experienced and very dedicated covops/recon pilot, I'd just like to say that you're asking for two things that the stealth bomber:
1) doesn't need.
2) already has.
It could be that you're simply misinterpreting their role - these are not battleship-killers.
I know! it's insane, right? They fire battleship missiles, they should be battleship-killers, right?
Wrong.
Stealth bombers are frigate and drone killers. They exist to obliterate light or lightly armoured targets. Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets.
There is no class of ship in the same weight category that can drop such a massive ball of spike damage on somebody so effectively. Battleships, battlecruisers and tech 2 cruisers can soak that spike fairly easily, but pretty much everything else can't... and thus you annihilate them, instantly.
Nore do these ships exist for solo stealthy hunting - although they can perform this role very well. They are fleet support, there to effectively and swiftly clear the battlefield of those annoying "tacklers". They should skirt the edges of the warzone, cloaked, until they have identified a target that they wish to annihilate. Then, they uncloak for long enough to strike their prey, before cloaking again so as to search for the next target. They are only "stealthy" so long as they got there first, or so long as their prey is distracted - just as it should be.
as for the covops cloak - it really isn't needed. it would just make the ship overpowered.
A decently flown stealth bomber goes faster when cloaked than when visible. The one critical advantage to this is that you can align while cloaked. align, uncloak, warp, cloak again when you arrive. While cloaked, you are invulnerable. While warping, you are invulnerable. You should never be visible for long enough to become vulnerable before warping, unless you're shooting at something that will be too dead to shoot back when the missiles hit.
Learn well, student. You have now heard the first koan of the Tao of Stealth Bomber. Meditate now upon this lesson.
It's a pity their weapons suck against anything going much more than 1Km/s (ie: almost everything)
PS I love my manticore too!
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Harry Paratesteas
Originally by: Garia666
I rather have the passive locking module active on the SB.. so when you decloak you can use a dampner shoot a folly of missles and then cloak again.. Just like the bomb..
as now other can lock you over 120km in a couple of sec..
That does sound like a good setup. I'll try it. Too bad sensor damps are getting hit by the nerf bat. They have saved my ship uncountable times.
hehe yeah but atm you cant use modules when cloaked ;)
read my link that i posted how the SB currently works on trinity..
bombing is becoming great fun
->My Vids<- |
Flex Nebura
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 15:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Gner Dechast
As a full-time stealth bomber pilot, I would say that they don't need much boosting. Only thing that I might want to see, would be the scan resolution penalty taken away from fitting the cloak, but that's all.
It's not solo ship, nor should it ever be. Always fly with a wingman, or two. Preferrably with an interdictor, and you two can take down pretty much anything from frigates to battleships (the most skilled pilots and/or the tanking bonus ships may be unbreakable tho).
It's the very kind of "edge of your seat" fighting, flying a paper kite that literally evaporates underneath you in 1 or 2 salvos (depending what shoots). You either retain the tactical control of the engagement, or you lose. ....and it's the best kind of combat I've gotten for a looooong time in Eve.
Since the last boost they go, I see no need to buff these anymore. The obsene damp nerf will hurt bombers very badly thou and narrow the tactical alternatives even further, but they still won't become dead weight.
If you can't get it to perform, first study what's wrong in you and your way of using it, and if you can't see any, try asking help - only after that start suggesting boosts to a ship class, IMO. Alternatively, don't use it.
This
Except if you have tactial control... then it really doesnt matter how much your ship costs and I think a raven could do a better job. If you dont have to worry about it tanking then you fit a few target painters and get a massive boost to dps over the stealth bomber. This is ofcourse ok as the raven costs more.
I still think the stealth bombers are good ships though, but Im just a little concerned that they are being left behind the rest of eve again.
Asking for Covert Ops cloaks is flogging a dead horse. Dont think we are ever gonna get that as that would make stealth bombers into solo ships.. they still die very easily, but have a way better chance of picking fights where they are solo pwn mobiles.
I do think that their damage is a bit low though, I can easily see why they changed all stealth bombers to fit 3 launchers as 2 was clearly too little after the hp boost.
Oh and if you have alternative setups without damps, Im very interested in seeing them. If you dont mind parting with a few secrets.
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sapanda1102222
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:11:00 -
[30]
Stealth bombers will get boosted after the amarr do.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:26:00 -
[31]
Originally by: sapanda1102222
Stealth bombers will get boosted after the amarr do.
They WERE boosted with the Revelations II expansion this summer.
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Major Stallion
Four Rings
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:39:00 -
[32]
i still think the SBs need 4 launcher hardpoints to be effective. 2 Missile Slots and a Bomb Launcher slot is HORRIBLE for the DPS.
________________________________
Originally by: CCP Nozh
As soon as people start comparing EVE to real life or battlestar galactica I stop reading.
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Malcanis
High4Life
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:40:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: sapanda1102222
Stealth bombers will get boosted after the amarr do.
They WERE boosted with the Revelations II expansion this summer.
Except for the Caldari one of course. Can't have the Caldari having the best ship in class now can we 
Gimme my 4th launcher dambit!
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
High4Life
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:40:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Major Stallion
i still think the SBs need 4 launcher hardpoints to be effective. 2 Missile Slots and a Bomb Launcher slot is HORRIBLE for the DPS.
The Manticore at least should have 4 *****ble missile slots
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
RC Denton
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 21:44:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Speaking as an experienced and very dedicated covops/recon pilot, I'd just like to say that you're asking for two things that the stealth bomber:
1) doesn't need.
2) already has.
It could be that you're simply misinterpreting their role - these are not battleship-killers.
I know! it's insane, right? They fire battleship missiles, they should be battleship-killers, right?
Wrong.
Stealth bombers are frigate and drone killers. They exist to obliterate light or lightly armoured targets. Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets.
There is no class of ship in the same weight category that can drop such a massive ball of spike damage on somebody so effectively. Battleships, battlecruisers and tech 2 cruisers can soak that spike fairly easily, but pretty much everything else can't... and thus you annihilate them, instantly.
Nore do these ships exist for solo stealthy hunting - although they can perform this role very well. They are fleet support, there to effectively and swiftly clear the battlefield of those annoying "tacklers". They should skirt the edges of the warzone, cloaked, until they have identified a target that they wish to annihilate. Then, they uncloak for long enough to strike their prey, before cloaking again so as to search for the next target. They are only "stealthy" so long as they got there first, or so long as their prey is distracted - just as it should be.
as for the covops cloak - it really isn't needed. it would just make the ship overpowered.
A decently flown stealth bomber goes faster when cloaked than when visible. The one critical advantage to this is that you can align while cloaked. align, uncloak, warp, cloak again when you arrive. While cloaked, you are invulnerable. While warping, you are invulnerable. You should never be visible for long enough to become vulnerable before warping, unless you're shooting at something that will be too dead to shoot back when the missiles hit.
Learn well, student. You have now heard the first koan of the Tao of Stealth Bomber. Meditate now upon this lesson.
And now I shall meditate on the this kaon of the tao of the stealth bomber:
1) Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets.
I can insta-pop poorly fitted t1 frigates, I can drop some massive dmg on drones. I can cause pain to t1 destroyers. To this pearl of wisdom I must ask "So what?". If someone is flying a t1 frigate in 0.0 then they are either a scouting alt or a noob. Any combat ship class can pop these with ease. If you are in empire wars it's the same deal. Who uses t1 destroyers other than for salvaging? Once again pretty much any combat ship can kill a destroyer with the exception of some t1 frigates.
Industrials can't fight back, nuff said.
My fleet role is to swifty dispatch tacklers and other annoyances? Well considering that precision cruise missiles have an explosion velocity of 1km/s I will do about 0 dmg to almost any and all fast ships. Interceptors, vagabonds, interdictors are all completely invulnerable to my spiky ball of alpha dmg.
If I have a wingman who can tackle then I am death to t1 cruisers, but then again so would almost any other ship class cloak or no. If they're well tackled who cares if it takes me 30sec to realign my sensors and start beating on them. With it's targeting range, paper mache tank, and cruise missiles instead of torpedos it seems that this ship is setup to snipe. However in a sniping role I can get 1 maybe 2 volleys off on a ship before they warp out. One of the big reasons behind this is that everything can see you comming because you don't warp cloaked. And again ceptors, dictors, and any other fast ship are completely invulnerable to my damage.
Boot to the head Ed Gruberman.
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Eventy One
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Posted - 2007.11.10 03:36:00 -
[36]
Signed, signed and signed.
Thing is, get hit in a stealth bomber, you die. Fair enough - its a frigate. Where's the balance then?
You should hit harder initially as the poster has argued. If its going to be a flying egg - give its something beefier to hit once with. And the idea of making the stealth a bit stealthier is a good one too. How about warping cloaked?
Come on guys .. where's the loving?
Cheers
Eventy One
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.10 05:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: RC Denton
If I have a wingman who can tackle then I am death to t1 cruisers, but then again so would almost any other ship class cloak or no.
Except you wouldn't be doing the dps of half a Raven while, at the same time, being anywhere near as survivable as a Stealth Bomber is when used right.
4+ Stealth Bombers + 2+ Interceptors + 1+ Interdictor = roaming gang that is very deadly and very difficult to pin down and catch.
It's not a solo ship, and it's not anti-light ship. 4-5 Stealth Bombers will melt battleships in no time. And with interceptor support they have both tackling and defense if they get attacked by interceptors and the like.
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RC Denton
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Posted - 2007.11.10 06:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: RC Denton
If I have a wingman who can tackle then I am death to t1 cruisers, but then again so would almost any other ship class cloak or no.
Except you wouldn't be doing the dps of half a Raven while, at the same time, being anywhere near as survivable as a Stealth Bomber is when used right.
4+ Stealth Bombers + 2+ Interceptors + 1+ Interdictor = roaming gang that is very deadly and very difficult to pin down and catch.
It's not a solo ship, and it's not anti-light ship. 4-5 Stealth Bombers will melt battleships in no time. And with interceptor support they have both tackling and defense if they get attacked by interceptors and the like.
True a roaming gang full of stealth bombers with a dictor and a couple ceptors could bring the pain. However you are not doing near half the dps of a raven because ravens get an ROF bonus which increases their DPS significantly. Yet for some reason the roaming gangs I see these days are not configured this way. In fact the roaming gangs I've seen the goons use are composed primarily of nano-FOTM ships vagas etc, and force recon ships. 4-5 stealth bombers without logistics support will get melted by a BS in no time as well. Take 4 of them up against a cruise fitted Raven with 3 t2 BCS I dare ya esp after the damp nerf. They have 0 tank, none, nada,zero, zilch. Heck they don't even get real t2 resists.
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Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
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Posted - 2007.11.10 10:18:00 -
[39]
Originally by: RC Denton
And now I shall meditate on the this kaon of the tao of the stealth bomber:
1) Frigates, drones, fighters, industrials, destoyers and tech 1 cruisers - these are your targets.
I can insta-pop poorly fitted t1 frigates, I can drop some massive dmg on drones. I can cause pain to t1 destroyers. To this pearl of wisdom I must ask "So what?". If someone is flying a t1 frigate in 0.0 then they are either a scouting alt or a noob. Any combat ship class can pop these with ease. If you are in empire wars it's the same deal. Who uses t1 destroyers other than for salvaging? Once again pretty much any combat ship can kill a destroyer with the exception of some t1 frigates.
Industrials can't fight back, nuff said.
ah... it would seem that I forgot to mention tech 2 frigates and interdictors in the list of things you tear out of the sky.
I am not kidding here. Oh, and what the bloody hell are you doing using precision cruise missiles? Get yourself some Caldari Navy ones instead.
Let me explain - this ship is NOT a solo hunter. it simply isn't it is a fleet support platform dedicated to the destruction - or at least epic spiking - of all the things your lumbersome pals in their battleships aren't capable of dealing with easily. That is the stealth bomber's role, and it is one at which it excels.
The one common thread I've tended to notice amongst stealth bomber complainants (and yes, I realise that this is a horrible generalization but please bear with me) is that very few if any of them are team players. Which is unfortunate, because the SB is a team ship.
You must un-learn what you have learned, student. The way of the Bomber is the way of patience. Remember - though the patient hunter always gets his prey, the hunter must also be careful not to choose a prey that can turn on him and stomp him flat. And it is best to strike while the prey is distracted by something else, just in case.
Oooommmmm....
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The game is not the problem.
The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
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Rauxes
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.10 10:39:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Stitcher
A decently flown stealth bomber goes faster when cloaked than when visible. The one critical advantage to this is that you can align while cloaked. align, uncloak, warp, cloak again when you arrive.
You really had to tell people this, didn't you? 
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Delichon
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.10 10:48:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Delichon on 10/11/2007 10:50:33
Originally by: Stitcher
A decently flown stealth bomber goes faster when cloaked than when visible. The one critical advantage to this is that you can align while cloaked. align, uncloak, warp, cloak again when you arrive.
Actually it just takes Cov. Ops 3 to be able to pull this trick. (so that your max speed while cloacked is above 75% of your max uncloacked speed) :)
But yeah - remove the scan. res. penalty and improve bombs. I think this would be enough to make SB shine in MORE types of situations that ATM.
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Hertford
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.10 10:53:00 -
[42]
Originally by: RC Denton
My fleet role is to swifty dispatch tacklers and other annoyances? Well considering that precision cruise missiles have an explosion velocity of 1km/s I will do about 0 dmg to almost any and all fast ships. Interceptors, vagabonds, interdictors are all completely invulnerable to my spiky ball of alpha dmg.
And this is the core problem with Stealth Bombers. Against turrets, you need to plot a proper course to keep your transversal up. Against missiles, just slap your MWD on and ignore them completely.
And you can expect 95% of the ships you should be shooting in a Stealth Bomber to have a Microwarp Drive fitted... |
Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
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Posted - 2007.11.10 12:02:00 -
[43]
Originally by: RC Denton
1) A stealth bomber is supposed to be stealthy. When you warp in everyone can see you comming that is not very stealthy IMHO.
What you cando with that is warp in to where they can't reach you, cloak, move around so they can't catch you....
And put the fear of God into them.
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The game is not the problem.
The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2007.11.10 12:58:00 -
[44]
I dunno if it's me... but when I reinstalled the game recently I needed to reset all my settings in overview. cov-ops and recons aren't by default; it seems, chosen to show up in overview. Not sure if this is a true case... if it is... it doesn't seem to have any real effect.
Frankly one... you need to be the usual 100km away from anything roughly. Being close simply isn't an option. Using range at least helps in that you will likely be outside the strike range of your target. Problem being... no warp scrambling.. they see your missles coming and they get out of dodge before you can pop them.
The suggestion of increasing "alpha strike" damage simply won't and can't happen. Soon as you make these guys capable of destroying haulers and such with 1 volley... they become the extremly cheaper suicide bombing tools. Currently they use ravens and such. They only suicide bomb when they know you'll make 100mil or more perhaps. Replace them with the 15mil 1 volley pop of a stealth bomber... it would mean far more suicide bombing in hi sec.
Now my setups pretty much run a few sensor boosters(usually 2) so the whole cloaking device ruining the scan resolution deal doesn't matter. So that really doesn't need to be changed.
Covert ops cloaking device. Now this is the thing that must be changed. Seriously... HOW DO YOU FIND THE STEALTH BOMBER IN THE ITEM DATABASE??
ITEM DATABASE -> SHIPS -> COVERT OPS
It's under cov ops... but it cant use the covert ops cloaking device? I notice in the thread that a number of people think the ship would become overpowered? How the hell...
Anyone quick on their toes, and/or expecting you, could end you so quickly... or simply get away.
Bombs should honestly be just severed and added to some other ship. Perhaps a new ship class also within cov-ops. While named simply a bomber. Once they figure out how to actually make bombs usable. On top of that you could setup the actual bomber ship to be far more effective in the bombing role... AFAIK it takes something like 4 bombs to kill most things that are untanked. Due to sizes or sheer amount of HP of those ships that are within the correct size. Stealth bombers on the otherhand can only at best do something like 2 bombs at once. On top of this... when do you ever come up against something that isn't tanked... the speed tanks will be out of the 20km range quickly i suspect.
Back to stealth bombers... you really need a missle velocity bonus on the ship. Perhaps missle velocity goes up while flight time goes down. Basically making it so you wouldn't have an insane range of like 249km or something. Though that sounds certainly intriguing. I doubt that'd be an option however.
On the otherhand CCP has been happy about taking smaller class roles and making them larger. PErhaps we move up to a cruiser sized stealth bomber. One which uses torpedoes with the new upgraded changes to torps. Perhaps that's something plausible and interesting. A sort of HEAVY stealth bomber which is designed more so to be a battlecruiser and cruiser pwner. While being a significant issue for battleships also.
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IamBen
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.10 13:08:00 -
[45]
the alpha strike bonus is a bad idea, the bombs are supposed to do that even though they dont work. Also, you dont want a ship that can just insta pop things, that will get lame quick
Yeah, stealth bombers should be able to fly around cloaked, i dont understand why they cant now. Also... mass reduction, jeez they are slow :)
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Arachidamia
The Ninja Coalition
Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.10 14:11:00 -
[46]
For a stealth bomber, it fails both at being stealthy and a bomber.
But a covops cloak would finally allow it to be a stealth based ship, outside of a stationary ambush.
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Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
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Posted - 2007.11.10 14:27:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Arachidamia
For a stealth bomber, it fails both at being stealthy and a bomber.
But a covops cloak would finally allow it to be a stealth based ship, outside of a stationary ambush.
thereby more or less completely negating the role of the covops frigate...
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The game is not the problem.
The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.10 14:46:00 -
[48]
Thats the core of the problem really, the Cov'ops frigate is holding them back.
Perhaps ensuring that a Stealth Bomber could never fit a probe launcher would finally allow us to have a covert scout and a covert bomber.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.10 16:42:00 -
[49]
Originally by: RC Denton
True a roaming gang full of stealth bombers with a dictor and a couple ceptors could bring the pain. However you are not doing near half the dps of a raven because ravens get an ROF bonus which increases their DPS significantly.
Ravens get a 5% to rate of fire per battleship skill level.
Stealth Bombers get 5% to damage per racial frigate skill level and an additional 5% to damage (for a specific damage type) per Covert Ops skill level. So, if we assume a Raven that doesn't use it's remaining 2 high slots (after filling its launcher slots), a Stealth Bomber has a dps that is higher than half of a cruise fitted Raven's dps.
Quote:
Yet for some reason the roaming gangs I see these days are not configured this way. In fact the roaming gangs I've seen the goons use are composed primarily of nano-FOTM ships vagas etc, and force recon ships.
We used to do them now and then in Agony (I was in Agony Unleashed until recently). They work very well most of the time.
Quote:
4-5 stealth bombers without logistics support will get melted by a BS in no time as well. Take 4 of them up against a cruise fitted Raven with 3 t2 BCS I dare ya esp after the damp nerf. They have 0 tank, none, nada,zero, zilch. Heck they don't even get real t2 resists.
Their tank is range and EWar. They orbit at 60 km. If they get hit, they warp. And the only way they can get hit in most situations is with drones auto aggressing and with FoF missiles. Those will all go for the nearest aggressing target though, and that's the interceptors.
The real danger for them is interceptors and similar ships, which is why they really need the interceptor support to keep those away.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2007.11.11 01:30:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Thats the core of the problem really, the Cov'ops frigate is holding them back.
Perhaps ensuring that a Stealth Bomber could never fit a probe launcher would finally allow us to have a covert scout and a covert bomber.
stealth bomber + recon probe launcher = basically no cpu left to do jack****. Which means they stealth bomber just lost a load of bonuses toward scan time and such. Nobody will ever do any such thing.
Just absurd to think that doing this would make any such change.
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Acinonyx Jubatus
Minmatar
International Multi-Player Consortium
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.11 02:47:00 -
[51]
There's nothing wrong with bombers, yeah bombs need tweaking like stated, but I've never used them before.
I absolutely love bombers, even if they're "limited".
You've got missile travel time, which sucks in its own, but it's something you get used to eventually. Specially when you see your ammo fly off into the "wind" wasted for the umpteenth time.
Can't warp cloaked, big deal, I find that lack of ability fine seeing as you can get a wonderful 56% speed increase while cloaked with an improved cloak. However it does hinder some tactics, namely with bombs.
Damage seems about spot on for a frig to be doing, and the scan resolution penalty is fine too. You can have an uber locker if you don't want a cloak, you want to be able to hide and pounce, yet rehide? That's fine, but you can't insta lock and spew in under a second for frigs. It's not that bad either, roughly 2-3ish seconds for an inty, which is comparable to a 3 second penalty on a cov ops.
They're pretty useful as is, they aren't the greatest asset to have, compared to a inty getting points on targets for example, but no one will scoff at you for sitting in one either like they would in the past. They're lethal, they're also vulnerable, it's a dance of death, it takes luck/skill to fly one effectively.
<3 bombers, leave them be, unless something major changes... Sides I dislike the price increase they got.
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daemorhedron
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Posted - 2007.11.11 03:49:00 -
[52]
In both their current state and the changes on SiSi, they currently rank as 'suicide bombers' more than anything. The last rework was a great idea in theory but they still fall way short of what they should be. Their agility in particular is a total 'wtf' for a frigate, and I still can't believe that they can't use the covops cloak. Bomb cost doesn't really bother me all that much. I could see a 50% reduction in cost, but I think it's ultimately fair for what it can do.
/signed
PLEASE rework this class properly.
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Arachidamia
The Ninja Coalition
Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.11 04:23:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Stitcher
thereby more or less completely negating the role of the covops frigate...
I suppose it would... if you overlook the scan time bonus of the covops frigate, the better cpu of the covops, the increased agility of the covops and the increased speed of the covops....
But yeah, aside from those minor things. You're right.
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DiseL
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2007.11.11 07:26:00 -
[54]
A couple of observations here. We fly Stealth Bomber gangs frequently. 100km from your target why? Missile velocity on a SB is absolutely crap. 5500ms cruise missiles with max velocity skills shooting at a target 100km away? Do the math. It does work but you need a dictor or inties holding down the target for a long time while your missiles slow boat to the target. On top of that you have to set visible and vulnerable that entire time in order for your missiles to hit the target. Most of our guys prefer the close range engagement. Approach the target to within about 8-10km, align to a celestial at full speed, decloak, dual sensor boost, dual damp, missiles arrive in less than 2 secs and target is dead. 99% of the time they never have a chance to even attempt to target you. This obviously won't work with a large target that takes more than one volley. This works well with anything below a destoyer including interceptors if they aren't at speed. About the only thing I would love to see added to the SB is a missile velocity bonus. Nothing to great, maybe %5 per covert ops level.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.11 07:53:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 11/11/2007 07:53:59
Originally by: Jason Edwards
stealth bomber + recon probe launcher = basically no cpu left to do jack****. Which means they stealth bomber just lost a load of bonuses toward scan time and such. Nobody will ever do any such thing.
Just absurd to think that doing this would make any such change.
Problem is that all the role needs is a cov-ops cloak, probe launcher, and speed. Meaning the Stealth Bomber would be almost as good in this role as the Cov-Ops, with the exception of scan bonus, and still able to fit a pair of cruise launchers for laughs.
So I wouldn't say it was absurd to think anyone would do such a thing at all. Indeed since there is fitting room for an MWD, cov-ops cloak, recon probe, and bomb launcher I suspect a lot of people would do it.
I know I would. 
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TRYPTIC
The Flaming Sideburn's
Hedonistic Imperative
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 14:44:00 -
[56]
In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets.
If the target isn't MWD'ing he takes full damage, regardless of ship size.
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Riddick Valer
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Posted - 2007.11.11 17:04:00 -
[57]
I'd like some more options for BCUs that would also give SBs some extra capability.
Currently, a BCS II gives about 10% to damage and 10% to rof.
I'd like 2 additional versions of the BCS (maybe even use scripts). One does 20% damage and 0% rof (less actual dps, much higher alpha). The other would do about 17-18% rof.
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Multras
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.11 17:31:00 -
[58]
No dont change SBs. They are a ship that takes some skill, and is able to insta pop the targets it is designed to take. The damp nerf shouldnt hurt it, just load the distance script and it should be the same.
Thanks to EVE Art Store for the sig. |
Durisis
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Posted - 2007.11.13 08:27:00 -
[59]
bombers are supposed to be the antiblob/cruiser+ size weapon. design one: make blobs risky to use. design two: a cost effective solution againt large armored targets. you can tell by the talk in this thread that they've strayed from their intended role.
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Andreya
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.11.13 15:39:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Major Stallion
i still think the SBs need 4 launcher hardpoints to be effective. 2 Missile Slots and a Bomb Launcher slot is HORRIBLE for the DPS.
if you have a bomb launcher, your job is to bomb, not shoot... doing 6500 alpha to 50 ships sounds pretty decent if you ask me.
_________________________________________________________
Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.13 15:43:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Hamfast on 13/11/2007 15:44:35
I have and like my Manticore, it was my first "Stealth Ship" only to find it could not use the Covert Ops Cloak...
I did the math, the speed bonus (25% bonus to cloaked velocity per level) will only get you to be faster then you could fly uncloaked if you are using 2 named cloaks that are worth far far more then the ship... otherwise itĘs a line worthy of a used car salesman.
Personally, the only thing I think they need is the ability to warp cloaked... getting to and from the battle unseen (stealth anyone?)...
In a small fleet battle (not something I have a desire to be in) I can see warping in and hoping you go unnoticed until you are cloaked, but if you hit a lag spike, your name is toast... as for large fleet battles, well, lag may be a given...
(Edit for a Copy and paste error)
--------*****--------
It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
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