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Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:28:00 - [31] Edited by: Setana Manoro on 09/11/2007 11:29:30 Originally by: bundy bear The zealot and the munin are the only 2 ships to have 4 weapon bonuses to the same weapon AFAIK. The zealot has 4 bonuses that apply directly to lasers so its a very specialised ship. It can fire lasers and nothing else. So you would expect this ship to be prety damn good at using lasers. Using 3 dmg mods and heavy pulse II with high dmg tech II ammo the zealot is able to turn out 465dps. Using 3 dmg mods and fitting for maximum damage here is a list of all the HAC's from most damage to least damage. (I know these setups arent always practical we are just calculating damage) Deimos - 794dps ishtar - 737dps munin - 696 dps vagabond - 658dps sacriledge - 575dps cerbersus - 516dps eagle 481 - dps zealot 465 - dps So with 4 bonuses dedicated to lasers it is the weakest HAC in terms of max damage output. Not only this but it is also the most limited in damage type, consumes the most cap and most vunerable to EWAR. The omen which is the zealots tech 1 varient has 2 bonuses to lasers. Using 3 dmg mods it achives 469dps which is more than the zealot. The zealot is also the only HAC that is outdamaged by its races recon cruiser. The curse fitted with misisles can do 521 dps which is 56 more than the zealot. The zealot also only manages to 13.4% more dps than the gallente destroyer with 3 dmg mods. I know most of these setups are not practical but the figures realy do show the zealot is realy lacking in the dps department for a ship designed to do nothing but dmg. Also I think the eagle is in prety bad state aswell so please dont try to use it to justify the crappness of the zealot. First of all your comparison is ... wrong to say the least. Let me break it down to you. Ishtar is another of them very specialized hacs, because it is a drone carrier. Because of this it has crap pg and cpu - the bane of drone ships being pg, not to mention just 3 weapon slots. This means that you will have no tank in that "maxed for damage" ishtar, while the Zealot still retains 4 slots for armor tank. So you do not compare a ship that can still tank and dish out damage to an all gank ship. The same goes for Muninn, Vagabond, Sacrilege. And with a special mention for the first 2, you do not do the paper dps with them unless you are stationary at 2km from the target. That is why you take the EFT/quickfit dps of a ac ship with a grain of salt. For the others, Cerberus doesn't do insta-damage, Eagle does more damage just because of blasters and of the shield tank, which allows you to fit dam mods and tracking mods in lows. Oh and btw, if you compare lasers with blasters, 10km for medium blasters is using null and even missing some shots, 10km for Heavy Pulse II with Conflag M is constant hit if you control the transversal. As for most vulnerable to EW, that is a matter of opinion, depends on the EW, and guess what, even ac's/blasters are affected by td's. In fact the new scripts for EW coming soon will give it somewhat of a boost - but it will be an indirect one. Failgeddon wrecks CCP for XXX annoyed customers !
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:31:00 - [32] Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: Ruah Piskonit get off EFT and get in game. WTF is this meant to mean?, I flown every HAC in game and know the zealot is below par. I used quickfit to generate numbers to backup my claim. Your numbers are too low. A vagabond with 425 mm guns, hail and 5 gyros does 687 dps according to EFT, and thats without fancy pants faction gear or implants. For having flown all hacs as you say, you should already know that a vaga under 14 km is a webbed vaga, and a webbed vaga will die horribly (but quickly fortunately). And a dead ship puts 0 dps. So calculate again how many dps it gets at 15km with hail. Hint: unbonused light drone damage. Or go to barrage, and see how much damage it does. 2/3rds. Two kilometers further out to get a slightly bigger buffer, where it should probably be? 1/2 damage. HALF DAMAGE at your "I'm not insane" range. So thats 340 dps aproximately, with some silly 425mm guns that nobody in their mind would use because you can't hit anything, and with 5 gyros which is even more ******** than the guns. You are using those numbers in the same way that someone would measure oxygen in the bottom of the sea and claim that there's enough oxygen to breath down there for humans.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:34:00 - [33] Edited by: Wild Rho on 09/11/2007 11:33:56 I'd like to see it get the drone bay its predecssor the Omen has but apart from that the Zealot is still a very nice hac, just don't try to fit it like the other hacs.
Kel Dario Amarr Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:44:00 - [34] /Signed Give the Zealot its fifth gun. I can't really see any logical reasons why CCP persist on it having a useless 'utility' slot. And give the Eagle a fifth gun also, so the caldari people doesn't feel left out. //Kel
bundy bear	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Setana Manoro Edited by: Setana Manoro on 09/11/2007 11:29:30 Originally by: bundy bear The zealot and the munin are the only 2 ships to have 4 weapon bonuses to the same weapon AFAIK. The zealot has 4 bonuses that apply directly to lasers so its a very specialised ship. It can fire lasers and nothing else. So you would expect this ship to be prety damn good at using lasers. Using 3 dmg mods and heavy pulse II with high dmg tech II ammo the zealot is able to turn out 465dps. Using 3 dmg mods and fitting for maximum damage here is a list of all the HAC's from most damage to least damage. (I know these setups arent always practical we are just calculating damage) Deimos - 794dps ishtar - 737dps munin - 696 dps vagabond - 658dps sacriledge - 575dps cerbersus - 516dps eagle 481 - dps zealot 465 - dps So with 4 bonuses dedicated to lasers it is the weakest HAC in terms of max damage output. Not only this but it is also the most limited in damage type, consumes the most cap and most vunerable to EWAR. The omen which is the zealots tech 1 varient has 2 bonuses to lasers. Using 3 dmg mods it achives 469dps which is more than the zealot. The zealot is also the only HAC that is outdamaged by its races recon cruiser. The curse fitted with misisles can do 521 dps which is 56 more than the zealot. The zealot also only manages to 13.4% more dps than the gallente destroyer with 3 dmg mods. I know most of these setups are not practical but the figures realy do show the zealot is realy lacking in the dps department for a ship designed to do nothing but dmg. Also I think the eagle is in prety bad state aswell so please dont try to use it to justify the crappness of the zealot. First of all your comparison is ... wrong to say the least. Let me break it down to you. Ishtar is another of them very specialized hacs, because it is a drone carrier. Because of this it has crap pg and cpu - the bane of drone ships being pg, not to mention just 3 weapon slots. This means that you will have no tank in that "maxed for damage" ishtar, while the Zealot still retains 4 slots for armor tank. So you do not compare a ship that can still tank and dish out damage to an all gank ship. The same goes for Muninn, Vagabond, Sacrilege. And with a special mention for the first 2, you do not do the paper dps with them unless you are stationary at 2km from the target. That is why you take the EFT/quickfit dps of a ac ship with a grain of salt. For the others, Cerberus doesn't do insta-damage, Eagle does more damage just because of blasters and of the shield tank, which allows you to fit dam mods and tracking mods in lows. Oh and btw, if you compare lasers with blasters, 10km for medium blasters is using null and even missing some shots, 10km for Heavy Pulse II with Conflag M is constant hit if you control the transversal. As for most vulnerable to EW, that is a matter of opinion, depends on the EW, and guess what, even ac's/blasters are affected by td's. In fact the new scripts for EW coming soon will give it somewhat of a boost - but it will be an indirect one. Read where I said these werent all practical setups, the zealot is meant to be a damage HAC but fails horribly. The vagabond is a speed hac that has to eb the most popular HAC in game. Ishtar an field a 5 slot duel rep tank with injector and MWD. Then have another 2 slots after webb to play with while easily out damaging the zealot.
Bisnitara	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:02:00 - [36] try to put it simple: zaelot is a gang pvp ship, u forget it has a 32 km optimal with scorch and sacrilage is a solo pvp ship, one of the best hacs i might say so go whine on other amarr class ships
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:05:00 - [37] Originally by: bundy bear The omen which is the zealots tech 1 varient has 2 bonuses to lasers. Using 3 dmg mods it achives 469dps which is more than the zealot. The zealot is also the only HAC that is outdamaged by its races recon cruiser. The curse fitted with misisles can do 521 dps which is 56 more than the zealot. The zealot also only manages to 13.4% more dps than the gallente destroyer with 3 dmg mods. I know most of these setups are not practical but the figures realy do show the zealot is realy lacking in the dps department for a ship designed to do nothing but dmg. First all your DPS numbers (espcialy the Vaga ) are pure Gank. Only on Deimos this is a possible Solution. Vaga -> 650 DPS, you know nothing, more likly 300 in Falloff and with a common fitting. Ishtar -> nobody uses Blaster and Mag Stabs because then you will have a Deimos with less Power. 500-550 are more ralistic(Heavy Drones + 2-3 Small Weapons) Drones can be killed to Muning -> well you get this short Range with zero Tank -> you will die as fast as a Rupture. Sacrilege -> more like 400, putting one Slot for BCU and the Rest for a Speed or Armortank or skip the BCU for a massive Tank this Ship is not best in the Gank role. Omen outdamages a Zealot Have you any Idea what is the difference between the 2 Ships in real ingame PVP Situations? Zealot got a very good Range, where Omen have to use smaller Weapons, also Omen with 3 Heat Sinks(you need one extra Slot for a Reactorcontroll or PDU to fit a decend Luncher + Heavy Puls and AB\ MWD) you got zero Tank and will die in less than 10 Seconds to a Zealot. Also Zealot can fit the Heavy Pulse II without Fitting Mods, get a 25% more Damage out of the main Weapons(HAC 5) and has more Range so you can go with a stronger Amno even out of Web Range. A Zealot will eat mutch of your shown Gank Fittings because of its good Range, Speed and and the fact that EM Resistence on T2 Ships are lower than on T1 Ships(in most of the cases). Even with 3 Heat Sinks you can put a Tank on, and don¦t need Fitting Mods or Rigs for this like Galente Ships do. The Zealot is not the Damage Dealer that it should be but it is far more powerfull than you think. Fly Ships ingame with a posible fitting in PVP instead of doing numbers in EFT. Than come back and complain again. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:12:00 - [38] The Zealot is built almost exclusively as a laser platform, designed to wreak as much havoc as its energy beams can be made to. As a vanguard vessel, its thick armor and dazzling destructive power make it capable of cutting through enemy fleets with striking ease. bwahahaha Nerf the zealot!
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:29:00 - [39] Edited by: Hydrogen on 09/11/2007 12:29:43 Pointless thread as it is obvious and well known: 1. Zealot lacks potential 2. Zealot lacks versatility 3. Zealot lacks damage variation ad 1. Zealot can not be extremly fitted. Meaning there is nothing such as: you loose tank and gain gank or vice versa. Simply as damage potential at maximum is still just average. Also Zealot damage output is still similar to its T1 counter part the Omen. ad 2. Zealot's abilities do not complement each other to allow various fittings. ad 3. Zealot only offers EM and Thermal damage. --- PvE - Zealot is about average versus Sansha's in PvE. Zealot is subpar to broken versus any other rat type. Thus Zealot is not viable as a general PvE plattform. PvP - Zealot lacks in the usability versus isk ratio for PvP. There are a lot different ships offering special assetts to PvP and/or more damage output and/or higher survivability than the Zealot. bottom line: the Zealot is not broken but subpar. It appears as if the incoming changes bring the T2 cruiser class, esspecially HACs closer together. Thus one has to wait on how balance is like after those changes. Example: the Ishtar was completly out of line to other HAC's. Superior PvE, superior tank and superior damage output (inline with some BSs) paired with versatility made the Ishtar a great and reliable PvP plattform too. Wait on the upcoming changes, as it seems that this stuff is on the drawing board. __ - click here -
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:29:00 - [40] Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: Wideen So tell me, how does it tank with its 7 low slots? nice tank I'll take it With 3 heatsinks you have a 4 slot tank. Without the heatsinks you do 281DPS. Exactly !!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:33:00 - [41] Do you play the game or do you play EFT-online? _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:43:00 - [42] Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: Ruah Piskonit get off EFT and get in game. WTF is this meant to mean?, I flown every HAC in game and know the zealot is below par. I used quickfit to generate numbers to backup my claim. Quickfit is so wildly inaccurate it's pretty much useless. At least use EFT if you have to try and rate a ship's performance by a few numbers taken out of context.
dralid House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:51:00 - [43] 7 lows? So all these DPS AND it can field a very nice tank? Nerf the Zealot I say!! -- Where do the wild roses grow?
Vengarioth Skullshanks Minmatar Victims of Confusion Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:32:00 - [44] Edited by: Vengarioth Skullshanks on 09/11/2007 16:32:56 Whats your 658 dps Vaga fitting ??? guns loaded with hail right and its 425 II... Man it's hard to take this whines serious ... If you compare you simply need to do it with real fittings ... Eve is simply more than max/min therotically dps Fantasy EFT setups. Personally i do think that the zealot should at least get a small drone bay. However the ship isn't as bad as the whinebrigade makes it. You can pwn outside of webrange. Tbh zealot > deimos ---
Lisento Slaven Amarr Capitalism Amuck	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:38:00 - [45] How much DPS does a zealot need to be able to do when it is paired up with one of the new amarr inties with webbing bonus and is orbitting outside the range of the target because pulse get longer range etc.? It is my opinion that DPS is not why the Zealot sucks. The Zealot sucks because its price tag is huge, sniping in a cruiser isn't worth it a majority of the time, and because the Harbinger outperforms it as a pulse boat (cost efficiency analysis comparison of buying + fitting harbinger vs buying + fitting Zealot). All it has going for it is range in my opinion. --- Put in space whales!
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:40:00 - [46] It's really funny to see people coming to the defense of this ship trying to justify the fact that it is craptastic. --------------
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:40:00 - [47] I dont know in what fantasy world you live to get 658 dps for a vaga^^ Also consider that weapons have different optimal ranges fighting in falloff means a considerable damage reduction.
Wideen Eon Project	Posted - 2007.11.09 17:42:00 - [48] Originally by: bundy bear With 3 heatsinks you have a 4 slot tank. Without the heatsinks you do 281DPS. Deimos and munin can drop all their dmg mods and leave 5/6 slots respectively for low slot tanking and still beat the zealots DPS. With more flexibility in dmg types. Well I figure that if you can't out-DPS them you can out-tank them which seems to be the case for the zealot. I use one dmg mod on my deimos which leaves 5 slots for tank and I can't fit an injector either so it's basically the same that way. Sure, given that both the zealot and the deimos use only one dmg mod, the deimos will out-DPS the zealot, but the zealot will out-tank it, comparatively. Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:09:00 - [49] OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM DAMAGE IS THE ONLY STAT THAT MATTERS. NEVERMIND TANK OR ANYTHING ELSE. OP is an idiot, go back to your EFT drawing board. (7 slot tank, 4 slot with full gank) ----------------- Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:46:00 - [50] DPS is meaningless out of context.
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:54:00 - [51] Edited by: Grytok on 09/11/2007 19:56:32 Originally by: Haniblecter Teg OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM DAMAGE IS THE ONLY STAT THAT MATTERS. NEVERMIND TANK OR ANYTHING ELSE. OP is an idiot, go back to your EFT drawing board. (7 slot tank, 4 slot with full gank) OP might has played alittle with EFT, but he's not an Idiot! Deimos can either fit a 6-slot tank, doing far more DPS then the Zealot, or you equal both ships out on a 4-Slot tank, where the Deimos simply has 200 DPS more, then the Zealot. Show me how you outtank a Deimos in a Zealot, when both are fitted comparably the same, i.e. full tank or 4-slot tank. Keep in mind, that the Zealot can not control range in this duel! There are situations, where the Zealot shines, but compared to the other Gunboat-HACs it's simply outclassed. Vaga pick the fights and run if needed, Deimos does huge damage while tanking OKish, even the Cerberus does better then the Zealot, if fitted for tank + Heavy Missiles. Give the Zealot 5 Medium Drones or at least 30m¦ Dronebay and there we go. It's not as near as fast as a Deimos, due to the lack of MWD, but dishes out damage in a comparably manner. .
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:57:00 - [52] Eagle needs another turret. Zealot needs another turret or 25m3.
Hait	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:53:00 - [53] Edited by: Hait on 09/11/2007 20:54:06 I'm not convinced that your maths is entirely accurate. Now I'm not max skilled in flying the Zealot, but mine puts out 575dps with conflag. Admittedly that includes a 5% damage to all turrets implant, but even so... I think a max skilled character without implants will hit 600dps. Chuck in a 5% to all and 5% to medium lazers and you're at 660dps.
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:19:00 - [54] Edited by: Grytok on 09/11/2007 21:19:44 Originally by: Hait Edited by: Hait on 09/11/2007 20:54:06 I'm not convinced that your maths is entirely accurate. Now I'm not max skilled in flying the Zealot, but mine puts out 575dps with conflag. Admittedly that includes a 5% damage to all turrets implant, but even so... I think a max skilled character without implants will hit 600dps. Chuck in a 5% to all and 5% to medium lazers and you're at 660dps. Zealot with maxxed Skills, 3x HS II and both (Med Energy & All Turrets) 5% Damage Hardwirings does around 500 DPS only (Conflag M) Don't know what you're calculating tho Deimos get's 750 DPS in that manner but with 2x MagStab instead of 3 (Void M) The tanks are pretty the same if you fit them both with a 4-Slot Tank. Zealot has some 300 HP more and a tad more resistances, but that does'nt make up for the low speed and higher CapUsage. .
Chaplain Veritas Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:32:00 - [55] Edited by: Chaplain Veritas on 09/11/2007 21:33:12 i love how no one telling him to get of EFT has given a valid reason why the Zealot isn't a piece of crap for a HAC. the fact a harbinger easily outdamages a Zealot is pretty bizarre, and because the Zealot is avg tank (for a t2) doesn't justify its crap dps. yay it can "snipe", whats the point when i'm doing crap dmg, and what keeps me from putting javs on a sac? fact is zealot sucks, it's cpu sucks, it's # of turrets suck, it's dmg just sucks for something that according to it's description and it's pile of laser bonuses points to it being a dmg boat. no one is asking for it to be #1, but bringing up the rear doesn't make any sense. ____________________________ the eyes are the groin of the face - dwight shrute
Wideen Eon Project	Posted - 2007.11.09 22:03:00 - [56] Edited by: Wideen on 09/11/2007 22:05:28 nvrmind I'm drunk been mixing bonuses... Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.09 22:11:00 - [57] Originally by: Grytok Deimos get's 750 DPS in that manner but with 2x MagStab instead of 3 (Void M) The tanks are pretty the same if you fit them both with a 4-Slot Tank. Zealot has some 300 HP more and a tad more resistances, but that does'nt make up for the low speed and higher CapUsage. Meanwhile the Zealot has a huge optimal and the Deimos has to be within 5km... I'm not sayin don't boost the Zealot (because we should), but comparing blaster DPS at 5km to Pulse DPS at 30km is just silly. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Hait	Posted - 2007.11.09 22:11:00 - [58] Edited by: Hait on 09/11/2007 22:11:13 My appologies - I messed up, left an entry in the spreadsheet I use that shouldn't have... unintentionally gave a scorch crystal 8kin damage Around 500 looks about right.
Cha Jeng Zenith of Things	Posted - 2007.11.09 22:20:00 - [59] I think it is pretty nasty to be honest. Yeah it could do more damage, but the grid on it is huge leaving some options that I was looking into Yeah it is in EFT and lots will complain about it, as it is a max skill version but here goes anyway Lows mar II eanm II x2 damage control II energized thermic membrane II 800mm tungsten heat sink II Mid cap charger II AFB II T2 24km warp jammer High 4x heavy pulse II Rig energy collision accelerator x2 It fit with grid to spare for me, goes over 600mps has over 5k armor and the lowest resist is a 80% Dps is in the low 400's with the 5% med laser chip and the 3% to all turret chip. Not amazing I admit, but that is some big time resilliance. 1v1 with a deimos I am not sure the deimos would win, as I know my deimos can't tank for crap.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.11.09 22:34:00 - [60] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Grytok Deimos get's 750 DPS in that manner but with 2x MagStab instead of 3 (Void M) The tanks are pretty the same if you fit them both with a 4-Slot Tank. Zealot has some 300 HP more and a tad more resistances, but that does'nt make up for the low speed and higher CapUsage. Meanwhile the Zealot has a huge optimal and the Deimos has to be within 5km... I'm not sayin don't boost the Zealot (because we should), but comparing blaster DPS at 5km to Pulse DPS at 30km is just silly. Liang more like pulse damage at 12-15km for the zealot, deimos should be within 5km by the 2nd-3rd shot. and i would take +8 kin damage on laser crystals

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