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twit brent
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.11.13 12:44:00 -
[31]
EVE without local in 0.0 just wouldnt work.
Everyone would just AFK recons everywhere and no alliance would be able to get anyhting done in their space.
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Maliber
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.11.13 13:04:00 -
[32]
The hunters will also have a harder time how do you check if someone is in the system? there are so many empty systems that you have to look for ppl. So more time spend searching for targets. And with the statistics of the map still active it shows you who is there anyway. If 5 ppl afk in a system they show up on the map. It will make looking for people more interesting. I think that a new way of accounting for the number of active pilots in a system should be introduced but local is never usefull except for ppl spamming it in jita and ppl smacking. Just make it so you show up in it when saying something and everything will be fine.
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Trigos Trilobi
Man-Eating Village Idiots
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Posted - 2007.11.13 13:31:00 -
[33]
Am I the only one who thinks that all these "removing local would ruin piracy/0.0/mining/ratting/whatever" guys think about this in a bit too simplistic terms?
There's absolutely no rule that says that if local is removed, there would not be anything to replace it. On the other hand, just finetuning the current local concept as an intelligence tool is kinda lame too in my opinion. The greatest benefit for removing the local in my eyes would be that it'd allow bringing a whole new tech branch in to the game, remote sensor arrays, gate surveillance units and whatnot, and also perhaps allow for new types of probes etc. This could incidentally also mean new tactical targets for small gangs etc fun stuff.
It isn't even necessary to change the current prey-predator balance/dynamics much, just the mechanics would change into a more immersion-friendly direction, while opening the door for new content. So you would have your 'local', just in the form of new probes/remote sensors/whatever. This, I think, would benefit just about everyone.
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Sky Marshal
Aeden
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.13 13:39:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 13/11/2007 13:41:16
This will require more WORK to be sure that this kind of local, depending of some new materials, will be operational all the time. As logistic-men don't already have enough work...
This will also reduce travelling, since it will be more risky in uncovered sectors, so less targets.
Yes Recons/Coverts exists... I don't think that players who can pilot them will appreciate to do intelligence all the time to be sure that others can enjoy ratting/mining/others, in one word the game, in security. Because this is not fun.
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Ghostfire
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Posted - 2007.11.13 13:44:00 -
[35]
 Originally by: Malachi Nefzen
For the love of God remove local chat! If not at least remove it from 0.0.
Local chat ruins gameplay mechanics (black ops anyone?)
I seem to remember a player vote on this years ago....concensus was keep local chat.
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Trigos Trilobi
Man-Eating Village Idiots
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Posted - 2007.11.13 14:08:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ghostfire
I seem to remember a player vote on this years ago....concensus was keep local chat.
Was that just a local (yes/no?) vote? because from reading these threads i just keep getting the feeling that people seriously lack imagination and think questions like this in way too simplistic terms.
I know I wouldn't vote for a stupid and very out of character system that players have no control of, and which has evolved into the primary intel tool by accident, not by design. Especially since the system blocks further developement of an aspect of the game which many would consider a major part of any game involving some sort of warfare.
But I guess people don't think that far, it's just "oh noes, can't log off on enemy entering system -> must be bad" without even giving a thought for the possibilities that might open.
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Dirk Fallows
Caldari
Galley-la
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Posted - 2007.11.13 14:16:00 -
[37]
I'm all for removing Jita local aka spam/lag central. Other than that, leave it alone.
--
Ceterum censeo reinforcements needs to stop shooting drones. |
Tau IX
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Posted - 2007.11.13 14:44:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Grytok
Removing Local chat completely? No, but with changes as follows.
Local Chat in Empire 0.5-1.0 stays as it is, for beeing that communication platform, it is now. We just cannot remove it there.
Local Chat in Low Sec:
-shows number of people in System, but is working in delayed mode
-flashes every time the local-count changes
This would give intel about changes immediately, without telling you directly, who is there. Mining-Ops can be easily protected by placing a scout at the gates.
Local Chat in 0.0:
-shows nothing and is working in delayed mode
-flashes every time local-count changes
This would give a short intel (1 second flashing of the window) that something has changed, but is something that can be missed, if you're not attentive.
By scouting the gates, there is pretty much security given, but that will afford a little bit more work, then just watching local, which is fine I believe.
Would make scouts and Covert Ops more of a profession, then it's now.
The new Black Ops Battleships could infiltrate enemy territory unseen, which would add up some spice in tactics.
System Scanning Arrays would gain from this, as the sovereignity-holding entity can now use it to their advantage.
So I don't think, that the "removal" would be total fail.
___________
Quote:
Good to be bad.
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Hopeless EQUILIBRIUM
Caldari
W33D Corp.
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Posted - 2007.11.13 14:46:00 -
[39]
Local ATM is like a very good spy. Recons, Black Ops, Covert OPS are useless. U have only the ability to warp cloaked.
If u are a hunter and u are not able to locate your victim learn more and come back later, and if u are miner or a NPCer and u are not able to stay aligned and scan RIP.
Local as it is, is unnatural. This is a game of tactics. Intel is VERY important and having local like this ruins 50% of intel.
For the Alliance in 0.0 the sov system should permit to put sensors and guns on the gates in the system with sov 3 or 4.
I play RTS and tactics games since DUNE 2 and the FOG of WAR is real important. Local is like a cheat that removes the fog of war.
In conclusion NERF THE LOCAL IS OVERPOWERD
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Hopeless EQUILIBRIUM
Caldari
W33D Corp.
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Posted - 2007.11.13 14:46:00 -
[40]
the local chat is also a LAG GENERATOR
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2007.11.13 15:43:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Grytok
Mining-Ops can be easily protected by placing a scout at the gates.
I'd be willing to bet that this would mean even less mining in no-sec.
Imagine a system with 5 stargates. You'd need 5 scouts to secure all of them.
How many corporations have 5 people that are willing to sit around (cloaked?) and do nothing at all for hours?
Rather, they'd stay in high-sec and pay for the exotic minerals, or refine loot to get them.
Of course, one might argue that those should join bigger corps/alliances. Well, not everyone wants that. So they'll adapt and stay out of 0.0 even more than now.
--------------------------------------------------
I'm a rich person. How I know? I can afford to be a miner. |
Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2007.11.13 15:52:00 -
[42]
Remove gates.
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Arcord
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Posted - 2007.11.13 15:55:00 -
[43]
I want to see all you guys who are for removing local being all keen to spend hours sitting cloaked on the gates just to give intel to your allies in the area...noone and i can guarantee that will be willing to do that for even short period of time bacause from personal point of view its boring work and you gain basically nothing...no fun, and fun is what this game is about...
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Michael McNeil
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Posted - 2007.11.13 18:02:00 -
[44]
many arguments have been made, and it will go both ways, so how about this... ccp temperalsy takes the local off the test server and puts the total population into one region, you try and find each other, blowing up ships. lets take these aguments to the test server then? oh Ill come if i get static belts. and some of my request from the other post like this one.
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Adunh Slavy
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.13 19:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Remove gates.
\o/
-AS
The Real Space Initiative (Forum Link) |
Syberbolt8
Gallente
soni Corp
Imperium Sonorumance
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Posted - 2007.11.13 19:37:00 -
[46]
While I like local the way it is, if it were to be removed, our directional scanners would need a major overhaul, Such as making the scan 50 AU or better, show who the pilots of the ships are, ect, as it is now, no ratter would be able to tell what ship is a pirate and what ship is at a pos, and the same goes for the pirate, he could not tell who was a pilot and what was an empty ship in a pos.
Past the pirate, npc hunters story, how would a large alliance know if enemy's where coming in or a large friendly gang, sure there are chat channels, but that takes way more time to ask and find out, assuming they reply at all, mean while your enemy's get into position and siege your pos, not a good idea.
If local can no longer be use as a way to keep track of who is in the system you own, then CCP needs to offer other ways, and I'm not talking about scan probes, those show where a ship is and the type, but they don't tell who's it is, and the current directional scanner leaves a lot to be desired, I don't care where they are if I use the directional scanner, I want to know who, and what they are in.
------------------------------------
Start a fire for a man, he stays warm for a day. Catch a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
Karjala Inc.
Onnenpyora
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Posted - 2007.11.13 19:43:00 -
[47]
I like the idea of having some kind of tools instead of local chat which doesn't really make sense. I'd like removal of player list in local (sure we still need local chat window just no list) but we should have tools for easily telling how many pilots are in system for example. The bad thing in local chat is that it tells exact amount of enemies without any effort instantly.
However, imo, removal of local chat would need many changes in game mechanics so it's not possible to just remove it and be happy.
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Turin
Caldari
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.11.13 19:47:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Malachi Nefzen
Edited by: Malachi Nefzen on 13/11/2007 00:37:24
Originally by: Elmicker
Take all those situations and imagine them without local.
You now have 2 situations. The hunter/hunted with local and the hunter/hunted without. No one in their right mind will pick without. The hunted lose their only vestige of protection and the hunters lose their main intel tool - it'd take anywhere up to half an hour to check each system properly, and even then you couldnt be sure.
tl;dr: It'd make the game ****.
Only vestige of saftey? You mean besides lined up insta warp, or WCS, or not to mention in your vary narrow minded view 30+ mins of some noob who doesn't know how to use a scanner bumbling around a system. right....
I don't know about you but when I go hunting in 0.0, I don't just plod around aimlessly like some lost dog. I use the map and this feature called "Avg pilots in space in the last 30 mins" as my main intel tool for planning my trips.
P.S. if it takes you 30mins to scan 1 system, you need to hunt in something other than your carrier.
Like stabs matter anymore. Every gang and their mothers has dicters with them. The only "net" you would have at that point would be to be aligned and thats it, and pray.
_________________________________
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Do Or Die And Live Or Try
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Posted - 2007.11.13 20:41:00 -
[49]
Don't remove local, change it to constallation instead. Gives everyone an idea what's in the neighborhood without telling whats in your backyard.
PvP'ers will know that there are targets in the vicinity. They can then chose to search every system or just move along.
PvE'ers will know there are possible baddies in the vicinity. They can then start to align/open scanner. But will not be able to just warp off when hostiles enters a system. If they chose to warp off when someone enters the constallation, they won't be doing much 
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John Blackthorn
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.13 20:52:00 -
[50]
removing local would destroy the game.
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SasRipper
DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2007.11.13 21:29:00 -
[51]
I dont bother hunting ratters in 0.0 because of local.
they are invinable @ ohh look target dock/logg/cloak
"Local was designed for chat not intel" oveur a while bk
The solution is simple local remains purely as a chat medium you talk every1 sees you.
Constalation chat becomes the new "local" with total persons in systeams visable & talkable to like local.
So yes carbears get there "warning" & hunters get there "sightings" but then the ratter may not want to dock/logg etc giving the hunter a greater chance!
While encorging a corp/alliance to protect there consta or gates.
*snip* Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked. |
Ruciza
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Posted - 2007.11.13 21:55:00 -
[52]
The "pirates" jump in and have to scan once to see him. The "carebear" has to scan for hours constantly on the lookout.
Scanning would need to be automatic in one way or another, just like local.
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Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.13 21:57:00 -
[53]
Simply removing local without a mechanism to replace certain aspects is foolish. Leaving it in for chat purposes (ie. you only appear when broadcasting in the clear) is needed IMHO. However, just making that simple change isn't enough.
As can be seen from the many threads on this topic there is no easy solution. Both predator and prey are negatively affected in some form or another by the removal of local as a vehicle for intelligence gathering.
I feel EVE most closely resembles a submarine warfare scenario. Some form of "active" and "passive" sensor mechanics would seem to work best.
Ships in an "active" sensor mode would be automatically scanning out to 14 AU (I would like to see further since it would be non-directional). Pilots in this mode would be notified of any uncloaked ships and their types, inbound or otherwise. While your ratting, for example, you would have your sensor sweeps running and have time to react.
Ships in "passive" sensor mode would automatically be able to detect all ships in active mode since the active ships would be broadcasting their sensor sweeps.
Ships not broadcasting in "active" mode would need to be probed or found through directional scans (ie. ships at pos's etc. or afkers).
I'm not proposing a complete solution. This is just a conceptual starting point for replacing the intelligence aspects that removing local would require.
I would like to see something changed though. From my first day in EVE I've always thought of local as an odd piece of an otherwise innovative game.
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Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.13 22:13:00 -
[54]
As a follow up to my previous post I would also like to see some form of a airspace (spacespace lol) control ship introduced to the game.
A ship that an FC can sit in that can sensor sweep for long ranges, like a AWACS aircraft, and provides battlefield command and control features for an entire solar system.
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ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.13 23:15:00 -
[55]
just not show people who have not talked in local... only show people who talk and they will dissapear when they leave... that way for people who want to smack in local can and cov ops can do there job... properly
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.13 23:41:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Originally by: Grytok
Mining-Ops can be easily protected by placing a scout at the gates.
I'd be willing to bet that this would mean even less mining in no-sec.
Imagine a system with 5 stargates. You'd need 5 scouts to secure all of them.
How many corporations have 5 people that are willing to sit around (cloaked?) and do nothing at all for hours?
Rather, they'd stay in high-sec and pay for the exotic minerals, or refine loot to get them.
Of course, one might argue that those should join bigger corps/alliances. Well, not everyone wants that. So they'll adapt and stay out of 0.0 even more than now.
As having an Alt doing this job in a cheap frigate with a cheap T1-cloak could'nt do that.
I allways have a second char as a scout, so?
.
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SolarKnight
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.14 00:37:00 -
[57]
Question for those who think local should be replaced with constellation.
If it does indeed show numbers of people in the area, whats to stop a smart corp/alliance from tracking all its members and giving the alert to align and safe spot as people enter the constellation instead of into local? intel channels and stuff aside, it changes nothing, just gives your prey MORE warning in theory.
Also farmers would just swap to monitoring const. chat instead and safe everytime that number changes.
The Light in the Darkness
My Corp, My family
http://Origin.zapto.org
My Alliance
http://forums.atlas-alliance.com/index.php |
Maestro Ulv
Phaze-9
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Posted - 2007.11.14 01:48:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hopeless EQUILIBRIUM
Local ATM is like a very good spy. Recons, Black Ops, Covert OPS are useless.
...here we go again... Why don't you just admit that it has nothing to do with covert and everything to do with a ratter/enemy seeing you jump in and then being on the watch for you?
Local does in no way effect covert. Local has in no way ever effected covert. Local has in no way ever effected PVP to the extent of favouritism over the hunter or hunted.
Local has been here since the game went live and before that. PVP has existed in all that time and has never been effected badly by it. In all the time that covert ships or mere covert action in a none covert ship (before coverts) local has never effected it in any particular way. We managed so far to have thousands of covert pilots didn't we? We will manage just fine for the next few thousand too thank you very much.
Originally by: Hopeless EQUILIBRIUM
This is a game of tactics. Intel is VERY important and having local like this ruins 50% of intel.
What's it do to the other half? Flamingo dances at dusk? Or bugger all!
This argument is like the old oxfam ads...
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Gordon Red
SteelVipers
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.11.14 01:55:00 -
[59]
Remove the local sounds good, but on the other hand it is even more pain in the ass for an space holding alliance. IF the local will be removed some other ways to get at last some kind of intel for the guys that holding the sov. should be implemented.
Like a POS module that can give you a ship count of the operating (hostile) ships in the system (or only for the hole constellation).
[physical explanation: that module compares the numbers of ship sigs with the transponder signals of the known ships (good guys) => rest are neutral or bad guys :P ]
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Rehen
Sulithus
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Posted - 2007.11.14 02:03:00 -
[60]
If you remove local max range on scaners would need to be removed so you can pick up all ships in system on it
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