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Why is CCP a miserable failure with respect to Jita?

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Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:26:00 - [31] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Eulalinda Originally by: Ademaro Imre Is this just some aspect of the game that CCP is unwilling or incompetent to deal with? Certainly unwilling, but maybe unable. The problem you highlighted has been around for years. The only way CCP will address it is if more people complain. Trust me, it's unable. If CCP figures out a way to do it conveniently, they need to patent it and sell it to microsoft. the standard reponse to dealing with algorithms that have this sort of complexty is either aiming to reduce the run time of the algorithm (need for speed initiative is aiming to reduce the time in which the algorithms run etc) or by throwing more power at the problem (continous server upgrades and the netcode that is being developed to allow dynamic reallocation of unused server power to servers with heavy loads.) Neither of these are quick to do though and in the mean time shop else where. I shop in places like rens and amarr and never have any problems.
Bimjo Caldari SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Wow Tarminic. That looks very complicating. Well that's why they make you go to school for for years before people will hire to you write software. Don't let me talk about it too much though, I'm a gigantic nerd and I'm perfectly willing to discuss all the nuances of programming difficulties. well bugger me senseless I am liking you more every day tarmy me old chum yours, Bimjo(Embedded software engineer)
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:30:00 - [33] What is an embedded? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:31:00 - [34] for the love of your sanity do NOT fall for that bait Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 EDIT You know what, Tortun has this one under control...* *Basks in the chaos of this thread
Honethite Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:33:00 - [35] The OP has a valid point, and don't think he's being an ass at all. CCP boast about there being some 30,000 players logged into Eve, but fail to mention how crippled a system becomes with 700+ players in it, afterall, the game is point and click for a reason. But, I heard they are building some new computers to beat the lag some regions are suffering from, hope Jita and similar systems are resolved, only then can CCP boast about how many players are logged into its game. ----- --> Give Eve Online the score it deserves - Eve Online ftw ! <--
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Tarminic, is it possible to make it x^0.5 or x? Not really. . . you can optimize the algorithm all sorts of ways, but the core of the problem (everyone must be checked against everyone else) determines the O(x2) compexity of the problem. Checking if a SINGLE ship is bumping any other ship is O(x), x being number of ships on grid. You can trigger a stop if the x,y or z coordinate is out of range, but you still had to check the ship. Do it for every ship on the grid and it becomes O(x2) If there was a way to make collision detection and similar algorithms O(x), O(x^0.5) or better yet O(log x), there are a lot of researchers that would kill for that code. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Bimjo Caldari SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What is an embedded? software in bespoke items, like in washing machines, car management systems, bike ECUs, spaceships, you get the picture basically they do one or more specific tasks, rather than anything, like in a PC
Caiman Graystock The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:43:00 - [38] Why are there still mission agents in Jita?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:43:00 - [39] Wow. This community is very helpful. I like <3 :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
benzss Templar Securities and Holdings Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:46:00 - [40] I don't think CCP is the failure when it comes to jita.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:47:00 - [41] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Tarminic, is it possible to make it x^0.5 or x? Not really. . . you can optimize the algorithm all sorts of ways, but the core of the problem (everyone must be checked against everyone else) determines the O(x2) compexity of the problem. Checking if a SINGLE ship is bumping any other ship is O(x), x being number of ships on grid. You can trigger a stop if the x,y or z coordinate is out of range, but you still had to check the ship. Do it for every ship on the grid and it becomes O(x2) If there was a way to make collision detection and similar algorithms O(x), O(x^0.5) or better yet O(log x), there are a lot of researchers that would kill for that code. Couldn't have said it better myself. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Phantom Slave Amarr Mozzaki United	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:51:00 - [42] I've never understood why people complain about CCP not fixing Jita, when it's the players that caused Jita to be a problem. If people who sell their goods in Jita would be smart and spread their goods to systems next door to Jita, there wouldn't be as much of a problem, at least until so many people showed up in those systems that they all became like Jita. There's really not a whole lot that CCP can do, other than upgrade their computer system like I've heard they are planning on. Once they do that, they'll go from a Huge server farm, to a small Super computer. For those that don't know the difference, is that Super Computers can take other 'nodes' and help them compute things when the original nodes become too bogged down. It lets the computers automatically grab more processing power to compute what needs to be done. As opposed to what it is doing now, where nodes are stationary and can't help nearby systems compute their information, unless otherwise set up that way by CCP at downtime. ____________________ Changes on Sisi are NOT the end of the world. Wait until Rev III/Trinity is released before drawing conclusions.
Refugee007	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:54:00 - [43] Edited by: Refugee007 on 10/11/2007 22:54:19 you'll have to have a way to split the node accross two machines. Each only load a set of users who could possibly interact (by grid area, for instance) or one do the gates, other stations, or dynamically work it out. -- its not easy to code, and im sure ccp will avoid doing it for as long as possible. i would. there's no need to see if a ship at the perimeter gate is bumping into someone on anouther gate, and i assume ccp know this, so the most checking going on is a) checking everyone against those in their grid, b) market transactions. -- just split this accross two machines so one machine does some transactions and some grids, and other does likewise. like i say though, pfff to coding that, be a pain in the arse.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:55:00 - [44] Originally by: Bimjo well bugger me senseless I am liking you more every day tarmy me old chum yours, Bimjo(Embedded software engineer) I've always wanted to work on embedded software, but unfortunately I'm far too pampered when it comes to the languages I use. Java, C#, PHP, etcetera...the thought of managing my own memory annoys me. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:56:00 - [45] Originally by: Honethite The OP has a valid point, and don't think he's being an ass at all. CCP boast about there being some 30,000 players logged into Eve, but fail to mention how crippled a system becomes with 700+ players in it, afterall, the game is point and click for a reason. But, I heard they are building some new computers to beat the lag some regions are suffering from, hope Jita and similar systems are resolved, only then can CCP boast about how many players are logged into its game. Who said thats the reason why EVE is point and click..? Anyway, Jita will never be fixed from what i see. People are continuously drawn to it, and never want to move away. Removing agents from Jita wouldnt help either, people would just end up going somewhere else. Best solution is to never go to Jita :P I never do, and im fine. _____
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:58:00 - [46] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis If there was a way to make collision detection and similar algorithms O(x), O(x^0.5) or better yet O(log x), there are a lot of researchers that would kill for that code. Actually, you would be abducted by the NSA Endresult might be the same though. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Peter VonThal Raygun Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.10 23:04:00 - [47] To hear the plans on supercomputing in EVE listen to Hilmar's speech, mainly 18:00 to 24:00. Clicky
Cha Docebo Caldari ETERNAL EQUINOX	Posted - 2007.11.10 23:11:00 - [48] I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but instead of looking at it from a computational point of view why not look at it from a market point of view. Increase the tax for market transactions in systems where there is a high volume of market activity. This I think would encourage players to spread around their goods all over and lose less money.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.10 23:18:00 - [49] Originally by: Cha Docebo I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but instead of looking at it from a computational point of view why not look at it from a market point of view. Increase the tax for market transactions in systems where there is a high volume of market activity. This I think would encourage players to spread around their goods all over and lose less money. This has been discussed before, but CCP is trying to shy away from artificial means for breaking up market hubs. This includes adding taxes for specific systems, re-arranging jumps, etcetera. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Athiven SkyWolf Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.10 23:29:00 - [50] Originally by: Ademaro Imre I actually did need to go to Jita. And for the last 35 minutes - been stuck at a gate, in a station, unable to assemble a ship, or stuck entering the game, or purchases lagging 5 minutes. Is this just some aspect of the game that CCP is unwilling or incompetent to deal with? CCP is unable to handle a system of 709 players that are basically market trading? Why ? For the same reason there still are traffic problems in any big cities like New York, Paris, London, etc... What would happen if Jita had no lag ? There would be more people packing there until eventually all other commercial hubs collapse. Raising rental fee would not be a solution imo. You would just have people still renting there and paying insane amount just to be able to brag that they can afford. Is this because appartments are more expensive in big cities that you see those deserted ? If you are trapped there this is your own fault.
Cha Docebo Caldari ETERNAL EQUINOX	Posted - 2007.11.10 23:32:00 - [51] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Cha Docebo I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but instead of looking at it from a computational point of view why not look at it from a market point of view. Increase the tax for market transactions in systems where there is a high volume of market activity. This I think would encourage players to spread around their goods all over and lose less money. This has been discussed before, but CCP is trying to shy away from artificial means for breaking up market hubs. This includes adding taxes for specific systems, re-arranging jumps, etcetera. I think it's only fair to have a tax for a system that's brining in so much business and making lots of profits without risks. How else would you balance that aspect of the game?
Honethite Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.10 23:34:00 - [52] When you invite players to join a single world, it's going to happen, I wouldn't blame the players. ----- --> Give Eve Online the score it deserves - Eve Online ftw ! <--
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.10 23:40:00 - [53] Unless you're a major manufacturer/large scale trader you never ever need to go to Jita. Absolutely anything you might want to ever do in this game can be done in some other place in Eve unless you belong to one of the groups mentioned above.
Terail Zoqial	Posted - 2007.11.10 23:56:00 - [54] For the millionth time, it's not CCP's fault (per se) it's the players. It's a free universe, remember?, CCP does not force everyone into Jita, everyone goes there via their own accord. /me slaps OP for being a noob Oh yeah, they upgraded the bluster/hardware/whatever too, but people keep on going. The only way CCP can stop peeps from going into Jita is by renaming it or turning it into a 0.0 system, even then, people will just crowd into another system.
Zavernus Hamarabi Caldari High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.11 00:19:00 - [55] Stop ***ing at ccp to fix the problems you create. Stop going to jita and it'll stop being a problem. CCP, a request: Reduce metagaming. Remove POS's and POS warfare. Remove rigs. Quote:** null Thank you, Zav
Stakhanov The Good Fellas	Posted - 2007.11.11 00:40:00 - [56] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Why is CCP a miserable failure NO U
Alatari Winterdawn	Posted - 2007.11.11 00:50:00 - [57] Edited by: Alatari on 11/11/2007 00:54:37 Originally by: Tarminic You can optimize this slightly by various techniques that no one here cares about enough to explain, but unfortunately the actual complexity of the algorithm (the X^2 part) can't really be changed. So you always see this kind of growth in complexity. You can do easily do it with an average complexity of O(nlogn). The worst case is still O(n^2), but only if all ships are colliding with each other, something you would try very hard to avoid. edit: updated to avoid the pedants nit-picking -- You can't do that with a Planet.
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.11 03:40:00 - [58] Originally by: Tarminic Don't let me talk about it too much though, I'm a gigantic nerd and I'm perfectly willing to discuss all the nuances of programming difficulties. It's sad but to me it seems easier to cut and paste gene sequences into a plasmid and cram that into a bacteria than it would be to program anything in this game! Love to the Assault Frigate!
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.11 04:03:00 - [59] Yeah but it would take a few weeks to fix the lag that way cause so many ppl would be filing into Jita to clean out the riff raff living there its lag would actually get worse for a bit before it got better.
Exuscon Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.11 04:45:00 - [60] BAD NETCODE! "Save the tree! Wipe your arse with an owl instead."

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