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Balancing the Pilgrim and Capitals

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Commander Tubgirl	Posted - 2007.11.12 01:55:00 - [1] Edited by: Commander Tubgirl on 12/11/2007 01:55:22 The Pilgrim, most stealthy of the Amarr Recon ships, has needed work for some time - everyone knows that. But what can be done? First let's go into details about the Pilgrim, what it does, what it should do, and what it should not do. The Pilgrim - Advantages The Pilgrim's bonuses are aimed toward three things: Drones, Tracking Disruptors, and Nosferatu/Neutralizers. These bonuses, like many others, are not separate - they intermingle in powerful ways. Drones are more difficult to target and track than normal ships - this in effect multiplies the effectiveness of tracking disruptors and drones, especially when combined with sensor dampeners that make it more difficult for the ship being attacked (especially a capital ship) to target them. The nosferatu/neutralizer bonus helps to compensate for the ship's smaller size, allowing it to neutralize 2800 energy every 12 seconds. The Pilgrim - Disadvantages Most fittings include very little tank, realying on the Pilgrim's speed to keep it out of harm's way. In addition, it's damage when fit with neutralizers is fairly unimpressive. Capital Ships - Advantages Capital ships are known for two things above anything else - their tremendous firepower and their amazing tanking ability, any capital ship is a variation on one of those designs. Carriers and motherships have their fighters and dreadnoughts have their massive cannons. Rest assured, any ship fully caught in the crosshairs of a capital ship will be in a lot of hurt. Capital Ships - Distadvantages Capital Ships, for all of their firepower, have disadvantages. Their targetting is one thing - they cannot easily target ships smaller than battleships. The cost of their construction and the support they require are another significant drawback. Capital ships are suprisingly vulnerable on their own. In addition, their standard capacitors are actually suprisingly limited, most carriers regen less than ten capacitor a second (max). The Pilgrim vs. Capital Ships Unfortunately, Capital Ships such as carriers and dreadnoughts are especially vulnerable to all the advantages that the curse fields - their capacitor is very vulnerable to energy neutralizers (they can completely neutralize it in less than five minutes) and their drones are extremely difficult to target, a matter compounded by any potential Tracking Disrupters and Sensor Dampeners. This means that, assuming no other forces were involved, a recon ship could actually defeat a capital ship in combat. Clearly, given that a recon ship costs one tenth that of a carrier or dread, this is a problem. What Should We Do? There are a few potential solutions that can help mitigate the overpowered pilgrim. Feel free to suggest your own ideas if these don't suit you: 1. Reduce Nosferatu Transfer Amount - This makes it difficult for the Curse to keep the capital ship from tanking too heavily. Perhaps it's bonus should be changed to a tanking one, since this will be useful in general combat but not against the overwhelming firepower of capital ships. 2. Reduce Tracking Disruptor Effectiveness - This would make it a bit easier for turreted capital ships to hit the curse or its drones. Maybe change the tracking disruptor bonus as above. 3. Increase Signature Radius - This will make it easier for capital ships to target and hit the pilgrim 4. Make Capital Ships Immune to Nosferatu/Energy Neutralizers - This will prevent the curse from keeping capital ships from tanking (since they will have their full cap available to them). This will also have a minimal impact on those who are flying Pilgrim's against non-capital ships.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:06:00 - [2] A carrier costs barely more than a CNR. they are already overpowered. They certainly do not need to become immune to nosf/neut. And no, most dreadnaughts can't so more as touch a ship, let alone blow it up...
08891	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:08:00 - [3] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth A carrier costs barely more than a CNR. they are already overpowered. They certainly do not need to become immune to nosf/neut. And no, most dreadnaughts can't so more as touch a ship, let alone blow it up... Faction ships aren't meant to be cost effective. Agreed on not needing the immunity to nos/neut. OP: have you ever tried taking down a dread with a small BS gang? Impossible without cap warfare.
Addison Caine	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:15:00 - [4] Originally by: 08891 Capital ships aren't meant to be cost effective. I find this is more relevant.
08891	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:23:00 - [5] Originally by: Addison Caine Originally by: 08891 Capital ships aren't meant to be cost effective. I find this is more relevant. It's true but to a different degree.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:32:00 - [6] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 12/11/2007 02:33:54 Just making sure, you do know that carriers regenerate approximately 3k/s cap, right? So it would take roughly 12 Pilgrims to overtake the recharge rate, and the additional would be draining the actual cap reserve. So would it be overpowered if 15-20 Recon ships took down an alone Carrier?
Commander Tubgirl	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Just making sure, you do know that carriers regenerate approximately 3k/s cap, right? So it would take roughly 12 Pilgrims to overtake the recharge rate, and the additional would be draining the actual cap reserve. Care to back up your argument?
Moraguth Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 12/11/2007 02:33:54 Just making sure, you do know that carriers regenerate approximately 3k/s cap, right? So it would take roughly 12 Pilgrims to overtake the recharge rate, and the additional would be draining the actual cap reserve. So would it be overpowered if 15-20 Recon ships took down an alone Carrier? even looking at just the isk value, i'd have to say no, it's not overpowered for that many recons to take down a carrier. Granted.... that depends on the recons not dying too. I think that if you only brought 12-15 (your numbers, not mine) that quite a few of them should die, and the carrier would survive. Otherwise, I'd think the carrier was underpowered if it couldn't at least take a couple guys down with it. :) good game
Bodhisattvas Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.11.12 03:06:00 - [9] You just said a load of stuff but its all stupid.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.12 03:10:00 - [10] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 12/11/2007 03:15:04 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 12/11/2007 03:11:02 Originally by: Commander Tubgirl Originally by: Christari Zuborov Just making sure, you do know that carriers regenerate approximately 3k/s cap, right? So it would take roughly 12 Pilgrims to overtake the recharge rate, and the additional would be draining the actual cap reserve. Care to back up your argument? Hmmmm, hehe. Fine, I will, this once, because I'm going to ask you to stop posting hypothetical dribble, then ask others to "back up their argument" in effort to substantiate yours. You've put the argument out, it's up to you to research it, not for us to research it for you. I just picked a carrier at random - wyvern, here's the link - http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/carriers/caldari/23917.asp Wyvern has approximately 64k cap with approximately 4.1450k/sec recharge rate. So each Pilgrim doing 2.8k/12s Nuet, comes out to 233.333 cap per second, which means it would require 17.76 of them to equal the recharge rate. Each additional Pilgrim thereafter would actually be draining the cap down, inside of smartbomb range.
Savant Hayt Minmatar The Reich	Posted - 2007.11.12 03:17:00 - [11] A troll that uses a lot of words is still a troll.
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.11.12 03:18:00 - [12] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Just making sure, you do know that carriers regenerate approximately 3k/s cap, right? Let's look up numbers in databases and try to pretend we know what we're talking about eh? The only ships that EVER rocked 3k/s cap were titans setup for pure recharge to gtfo after DDing. Your typical carrier setup has 200-300/s at PEAK.
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.12 04:30:00 - [13] Tarminic? Not funny __________________________________
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.11.12 04:53:00 - [14] Originally by: Commander Tubgirl Most fittings include very little tank, realying on the Pilgrim's speed to keep it out of harm's way. Have you ever flown a Pilgrim? You must be confusing it with a Curse, you can't speedfit a Pilgrim as it must remain within overheated web range to nos/neut a target unless fitted with faction nosferatu. --
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER	Posted - 2007.11.12 08:56:00 - [15] Edited by: Grytok on 12/11/2007 08:56:37 Originally by: Commander Tubgirl ... allowing it to neutralize 2800 energy every 12 seconds. ... I stopped reading after this. Pilgrim with 3x Medium Energy Neutralizer II destroys 1080 Cap / 12 seconds, with maximum Skills affecting Neuts. So that comes down to 90 Cap /second. Get your numbers sorted first, before starting such a post. .

ISD Valorem Amarr ISD STAR	Posted - 2007.11.12 09:26:00 - [16] Moved from General Discussion to Ships and Modules. forum rules \| CAOD Rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Criza Amarr United Warriors Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.12 09:31:00 - [17] Where you drunk when you started this thread? First of all in case you didn't notice the NOS'es where NERFED !!! Second of all, like this guy sayed before me, HAVE YOU EVER ***** FLOWN A CURSE/PILGRIM ??? I bet my account you didn't. If you ever would have flown a curse/pilgrim (especialy after the NOS nerf patch) you would know that you can not keep the neutralizers going forever on neither one of these shipps....did i say forever? lol i ment more then a couple of minutes ( except if you put a cap injector and that would help you only for another couple of minutes lol) so please STFU** and don't ever post suck stupidityes on forums.
James Grand Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.11.12 09:39:00 - [18] Originally by: ISD Valorem Moved from General Discussion to Ships and Modules. Should've moved it from General Discussion to the trash. This is a blatant troll. -------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in my posts are entirely my own.
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Commander Tubgirl Edited by: Commander Tubgirl on 12/11/2007 01:55:22 The Pilgrim, most stealthy of the Amarr Recon ships, has needed work for some time - everyone knows that. But what can be done? First let's go into details about the Pilgrim, what it does, what it should do, and what it should not do. The Pilgrim - Advantages The Pilgrim's bonuses are aimed toward three things: Drones, Tracking Disruptors, and Nosferatu/Neutralizers. These bonuses, like many others, are not separate - they intermingle in powerful ways. Drones are more difficult to target and track than normal ships - this in effect multiplies the effectiveness of tracking disruptors and drones, especially when combined with sensor dampeners that make it more difficult for the ship being attacked (especially a capital ship) to target them. The nosferatu/neutralizer bonus helps to compensate for the ship's smaller size, allowing it to neutralize 2800 energy every 12 seconds. The Pilgrim - Disadvantages Most fittings include very little tank, realying on the Pilgrim's speed to keep it out of harm's way. In addition, it's damage when fit with neutralizers is fairly unimpressive. Capital Ships - Advantages Capital ships are known for two things above anything else - their tremendous firepower and their amazing tanking ability, any capital ship is a variation on one of those designs. Carriers and motherships have their fighters and dreadnoughts have their massive cannons. Rest assured, any ship fully caught in the crosshairs of a capital ship will be in a lot of hurt. Capital Ships - Distadvantages Capital Ships, for all of their firepower, have disadvantages. Their targetting is one thing - they cannot easily target ships smaller than battleships. The cost of their construction and the support they require are another significant drawback. Capital ships are suprisingly vulnerable on their own. In addition, their standard capacitors are actually suprisingly limited, most carriers regen less than ten capacitor a second (max). The Pilgrim vs. Capital Ships Unfortunately, Capital Ships such as carriers and dreadnoughts are especially vulnerable to all the advantages that the curse fields - their capacitor is very vulnerable to energy neutralizers (they can completely neutralize it in less than five minutes) and their drones are extremely difficult to target, a matter compounded by any potential Tracking Disrupters and Sensor Dampeners. This means that, assuming no other forces were involved, a recon ship could actually defeat a capital ship in combat. Clearly, given that a recon ship costs one tenth that of a carrier or dread, this is a problem. What Should We Do? There are a few potential solutions that can help mitigate the overpowered pilgrim. Feel free to suggest your own ideas if these don't suit you: 1. Reduce Nosferatu Transfer Amount - This makes it difficult for the Curse to keep the capital ship from tanking too heavily. Perhaps it's bonus should be changed to a tanking one, since this will be useful in general combat but not against the overwhelming firepower of capital ships. 2. Reduce Tracking Disruptor Effectiveness - This would make it a bit easier for turreted capital ships to hit the curse or its drones. Maybe change the tracking disruptor bonus as above. 3. Increase Signature Radius - This will make it easier for capital ships to target and hit the pilgrim 4. Make Capital Ships Immune to Nosferatu/Energy Neutralizers - This will prevent the curse from keeping capital ships from tanking (since they will have their full cap available to them). This will also have a minimal impact on those who are flying Pilgrim's against non-capital ships. Is this guy serious? Is he saying a lone Pilgrim could take out a capital ship? I should have stopped reading half way through.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Naviset	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:39:00 - [20] Edited by: Naviset on 12/11/2007 17:45:34 Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 12/11/2007 03:15:04 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 12/11/2007 03:11:02 Originally by: Commander Tubgirl Originally by: Christari Zuborov Just making sure, you do know that carriers regenerate approximately 3k/s cap, right? So it would take roughly 12 Pilgrims to overtake the recharge rate, and the additional would be draining the actual cap reserve. Care to back up your argument? Hmmmm, hehe. Fine, I will, this once, because I'm going to ask you to stop posting hypothetical dribble, then ask others to "back up their argument" in effort to substantiate yours. You've put the argument out, it's up to you to research it, not for us to research it for you. I just picked a carrier at random - wyvern, here's the link - http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/carriers/caldari/23917.asp Wyvern has approximately 64k cap with approximately 4.1450k/sec recharge rate. So each Pilgrim doing 2.8k/12s Nuet, comes out to 233.333 cap per second, which means it would require 17.76 of them to equal the recharge rate. Each additional Pilgrim thereafter would actually be draining the cap down, inside of smartbomb range. ...........where the hell did you get THOSE numbers? Filling all the slots with officer gear? FYI: Wyvern isnt a carrier. Ebay? Most Carriers / MSes sustain their tank by fairly small margins. As is, doing enough damage to make most capitals chainrep with a single curse will eventually cap them out and break their tank. EDIT: Now I know where. You don't know how cap recharge works..... so you think the wyvern (Which still isnt a carrier) is recharging WAY more cap than it really is. For the record, a wyvern recharges 38 cap a second without modules. Please go learn how things work before you post like that in the future...... As for the original argument Nos/Neut immune capitals just means theres only one way to kill capital ships now, and none of them require smallish gangs. If you're trying to justify things by an isk standpoint, a t2 fit / fighters / etc carrier costs roughly 1.5bil. Thats 4-5 Tier 3 battleships and a curse or two. If you make things nos/neut immune you'd be very very hard pressed to ever kill a carrier with those ships.
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:42:00 - [21] Originally by: Terianna Eri Tarminic? Not funny Yup - 'fess up Tarminic you've been spotted; heck if it isn't you then this is one lol thread . C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:51:00 - [22] at this thread.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:05:00 - [23] I dont think im going to be reading any kind of 'intelligent' or 'relevant' post from a !/b] that's named Commander Tubgirl. President Tubgirl, maybe but deffinantly not merely a commander ----------------- [b]Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:42:00 - [24] Originally by: James Grand Originally by: ISD Valorem Moved from General Discussion to Ships and Modules. Should've moved it from General Discussion to the trash. This is a blatant troll. qft
Weeka Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:43:00 - [25] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Wyvern has approximately 64k cap with approximately 4.1450k/sec recharge rate. So each Pilgrim doing 2.8k/12s Nuet, comes out to 233.333 cap per second, which means it would require 17.76 of them to equal the recharge rate. I actually spilled coke on my keyboard reading this. Ebay, I guess
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.12 19:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Weeka Originally by: Christari Zuborov Wyvern has approximately 64k cap with approximately 4.1450k/sec recharge rate. So each Pilgrim doing 2.8k/12s Nuet, comes out to 233.333 cap per second, which means it would require 17.76 of them to equal the recharge rate. I actually spilled coke on my keyboard reading this. Ebay, I guess You spilled your coke reading that... I spilled my coffee reading that a Pilgrim relies on speed to avoid damage. ;-) Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg I dont think im going to be reading any kind of 'intelligent' or 'relevant' post from a ! that's named Commander Tubgirl. President Tubgirl, maybe but deffinantly not merely a commander Fair enough. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
HarryManback Minmatar Gr0und Zer0	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:03:00 - [28] Originally by: Commander Tubgirl their capacitor is very vulnerable to energy neutralizers WTF I never heard of a capitol neutralizer... oh you mean...nooooo...you can't be refering to cruiser sized neuts. epic LMFAO
Mortis Tyrathlion Twisted Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:03:00 - [29] Looks like I got my 10 mil's worth ^^ Thought such a touchy subject as the Pilgrim would get people's backs up, some of the responses here really do show that some people can't take a joke... For the record, I am part of the unofficial 'boost the Pilgrim' lobby group, just thought it would be a nice challenge for Tarm to do this one...

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