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Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers	Posted - 2007.11.17 05:09:00 - [151] Edited by: Rialtor on 17/11/2007 05:12:19 See they're conservative people over there, you act like you all think the same :P. he should move here though :). ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2007.11.17 05:41:00 - [152] Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 15/11/2007 17:58:39 I don't have the entire US Constitution memorized. But no, there is not going to be anything in there stating government has to provide healthcare to it's citizens... Constitution The people who state that Socialized medicine is the absolute only answer to our problems are simply wrong... They are picking the solution that is less work, but harder on everyone in the long run... Raising taxes is easy, that's why it's the Democrats #1 policy in everything they do... It's simply a bad choice, and it's un-American to boot... Hell, the Federal Government is un-American, and needs to be abolished... Life is un-american, run with that thought, here's some scissors. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.17 11:25:00 - [153] Originally by: Keorythe Quote: You are rich, whoopde ******* doodle do - if you are then why aren't you helping people? I dont get this quote. Just because you have money means that you are supposed to spend it on other people? I thought charity was supposed to be a voluntary thing? Why is it wrong that he should not go spend it on just shoes or some other trinket if its his hard earned money? And judging by what he said its mostly commision pay which is tough work (I dont think I could be a salesman). Here DM is putting it like this is a normal wage, wasn't aimed at him specificly but that layer of America - if you have the money for a government run health policy why not do it? You have a point though DM; perhaps the depth of laziness in America is too different to the British one for me to understand, I'll assume that as you live there you have a bettr grasp of the situation but saying things like that over here is a bad idea.... can't come up with an analogy but after the Tories sold off the Nationaised services in the 80's it's a VERY sensitive subject.
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.17 17:18:00 - [154] The US government's income is a 1 trillion dollars more or less each year. Americans spend roughly 4 trillion on health care each year. No way we could pay for the kind of health care we get now. And judging by the numerous reforms and cutbacks on socialized healthcare in Europe and Canada, neither can the EU. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Ixianus	Posted - 2007.11.17 19:45:00 - [155] Originally by: Keorythe Edited by: Keorythe on 17/11/2007 17:29:35 The US government's income is a 1 trillion dollars more or less each year. Americans spend roughly 2.5 trillion on health care each year. No way we could pay for the kind of health care we get now. And judging by the numerous reforms and cutbacks on socialized healthcare in Europe and Canada, neither can the EU. Wonder where you get those figures, cause the ones I know are rather different.
Ixianus	Posted - 2007.11.17 19:52:00 - [156] Edited by: Ixianus on 17/11/2007 19:52:14 These threads always come down to the same thing. The poor don't deserve health care because they're poor. The wait I would have to wait just doesn't make up for me, the equality of treatment and the ending of at least some unneeded suffering for the poor, I want my service and I want it now. Saving someone's life < Curing my stomach ache. Always the wonderfully enlightened perspectives that come in. I for one enjoy getting the shaft any time I need to go to the hospital. Hooray huge bills, hooray.
Seroquel	Posted - 2007.11.17 20:33:00 - [157] obligatory america sux lolol (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Lord MuffloN Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.17 20:40:00 - [158] Just out of curiosity, how "high" is the American tax? Both direct and indirect. Originally by: Jago Kain If they ever decide to award a Nobel Prize for Emo, Lord MuffloN is a sure fire winner of the first on
Lord BlackSter The Cruciform The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.17 23:29:00 - [159] Originally by: Keorythe Edited by: Keorythe on 17/11/2007 17:29:35 The US government's income is a 1 trillion dollars more or less each year. Americans spend roughly 2.5 trillion on health care each year. They spend 2.5 trillion but they propably dont even get 1 trillion back ..
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.17 23:59:00 - [160] Okay watched the film, had a few tears in places. Take note how people looked when they said "how much did that cost" - the canadian guy who lost his fingers looked like Moore claimed he was an alien. The British - we were insulted by the idea of paying for it, as were the French. Conclusion - we laugh at the current system before realising it is beyond a joke and that we pity those people, realy I do. And like the ex-MP said, dare suggest to take that away and there would be a revolution and people taking to the streets, prove to me that you are British and you would support it and I will eat my hat.

Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.11.18 00:08:00 - [161] I just read that the US Senate shot down a bill to increase the funding for the two wars currently underway. Apparently, it costs the US military 2.5 billion a week to maintain its operations. Somehow, they can justify spending billions upon billions to kill people, but not billions upon billions to help their citizens live? Someone needs to take a step back and give this mentality a once over.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.18 01:24:00 - [162] Originally by: Derovius Vaden I just read that the US Senate shot down a bill to increase the funding for the two wars currently underway. Apparently, it costs the US military 2.5 billion a week to maintain its operations. Somehow, they can justify spending billions upon billions to kill people, but not billions upon billions to help their citizens live? Someone needs to take a step back and give this mentality a once over. Europe realised this in the aftermath of WW2 - if we can afford to arm an empire and wage constant war for 4 years we can afford to help our own sick people.
Tony C'dale Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2007.11.18 03:09:00 - [163] Originally by: Lord MuffloN Just out of curiosity, how "high" is the American tax? Both direct and indirect. For direct federal income tax Linkage Indirect would be harder to measure since it's dependent on where you live in the States as some states have higher sales taxes, some lower and some have none at all. For example where I'm at the sales tax on food is 1% and 7.5% on the rest. I'm kind of curious how many of the people out there form opinions on America and Americans based on our media, like Sicko? I find the idea funny and horrifying at the same time. Most of what we put out is total crap and in no way representative of who we are. Like me forming an opinion on the Brits based on Monty Python, Eastenders and Benny Hill (the only British shows I think I've ever seen on US television)!
Leora Nomen	Posted - 2007.11.18 03:20:00 - [164] Originally by: DarkMatter The great thing about America, like EVE, is that you can be whatever you want, without the government telling you otherwise (unless you have a criminal record of course) The last thing this country needs is giving our already intrusive government more ways to dictate how we live. That's what Democrats want, to tell us how to live, and not let us figure it out ourselves. Healthcare, retirement, you name it. They want to dictate that to us. NO! Yes the system needs to revamped, but it can be done in a non-socialist way, an American way and be more successful than any other system out there. But I fear, too many stupid Americans are falling for the Democratic scare tactics, and will vote in someone like Hillary that will only make things worse for ppl like short term, and for everyone long term... Yeah and Republican party isn't going to tell you how to live. I wonder why all the religious conservative nuts - the ones who want to make USA a Christian nation, make such things as abortions and being *** illegal under law - are voting for Republicans, because clearly they don't want to tell Americans how to live. Get real. Members of both parties have a certain ideal in mind on how Americans should live and they fight for the power to make it so. If you're out there voting, at least learn to think for yourself instead of thinking in party slogans, because right now you're being one of those "many stupid Americans falling for the ~~Democratic~~ Republican scare tactics". guide to game time codes
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.18 05:47:00 - [165] Originally by: Ixianus Wonder where you get those figures, cause the ones I know are rather different. Thats fairly public information on either. Federal income is pretty much a done deal. Health care expenditures could be higher but I went with a lower conservative number (some argue it was 4trillion). You could also be talking about differences in co-pay's and fees actually paid by an INSURED individual vs. actual amount of cash spent for the treatment. My co-pay is $20 but that doesn't mean any treatment costs that little. If you've got other numbers feel free to post them. To the people that want to throw in Iraq into this, even if we added up total expenditures for the past couple of years it still wouldn't cover a single year of health care in the US. Even if you cut some of the regulation and got rid of most of the wastes there would have to be a drastic cutback in services to do so. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.11.18 06:02:00 - [166] Originally by: Keorythe To the people that want to throw in Iraq into this, even if we added up total expenditures for the past couple of years it still wouldn't cover a single year of health care in the US. Even if you cut some of the regulation and got rid of most of the wastes there would have to be a drastic cutback in services to do so. All I hear is someone whose supped the conservative teet once too often. Show me some numbers next time you want to make such a bold statement.
Leora Nomen	Posted - 2007.11.18 06:54:00 - [167] Originally by: Lord MuffloN Just out of curiosity, how "high" is the American tax? Both direct and indirect. It varies depending on your situation, but in general if you're single and earning no more than $7.5K you pay about 10% of that to the government, income from $7.5K to $30K gets charged at 15%, income from $30-$75K - 25%, $75-$150K - 28%, over $150K - 33%. In addition there are state taxes. In the state of California for example, if you make 30K and file single you'll be paying about $5.2K of that to government and state. The poverty line is 10K per person per year. If you're a high school drop-out, finished school but never went to college, or a graduate school student (which can last anywhere from 2 to 8 years) on average you won't be earning more than $30K. Some college or associate degree - you make $30-40K on average. With a bachelor's degree from a 4-year institution most entry level workers will get 40-50K salary. By the time you graduate a 4-year institution you have also borrowed an average of $20K from various sources to help fund your education and so have a $20K debt. The median household income in 2006 was $48K and about 20% of household had income over $100K while 12% were below the poverty line. Overall the majority of individuals in USA aren't earning more than $75K and so are paying something like 15-20% to government and much less than that to their resident state. guide to game time codes
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.18 07:57:00 - [168] Originally by: Derovius Vaden All I hear is someone whose supped the conservative teet once too often. Show me some numbers next time you want to make such a bold statement. In 2004, we spent about $1.9 trillion dollars on health care services, medical research, and other things related to health care, like running and building hospitals, clinics, and laboratories Overall health care spending is predicted to be $4.0 trillion in 2015. (See Figure 4.) Source: Citizens Health Care (you can google a number of places that have the same number but this one has nice explanations and pretty pictures ) Total cost for the entire Iraq war from the invasion till now: 1.2 trillion. Source: New York Times (once again, you can google for almost exact references) Ironically they estimate that the cost of the war will go up due to HEALTH CARE of wounded vets. Bold statement made, shown proof, and still standing. If you are going to flame me at least post some counter numbers instead of the usual "conservatives are ****y heads" that lefties like to do. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.11.18 08:13:00 - [169] Originally by: Keorythe Originally by: Derovius Vaden All I hear is someone whose supped the conservative teet once too often. Show me some numbers next time you want to make such a bold statement. In 2004, we spent about $1.9 trillion dollars on health care services, medical research, and other things related to health care, like running and building hospitals, clinics, and laboratories Overall health care spending is predicted to be $4.0 trillion in 2015. (See Figure 4.) Source: Citizens Health Care (you can google a number of places that have the same number but this one has nice explanations and pretty pictures ) Total cost for the entire Iraq war from the invasion till now: 1.2 trillion. Source: New York Times (once again, you can google for almost exact references) Ironically they estimate that the cost of the war will go up due to HEALTH CARE of wounded vets. Bold statement made, shown proof, and still standing. If you are going to flame me at least post some counter numbers instead of the usual "conservatives are ****y heads" that lefties like to do. You'd think that a nation so hand to mouth with respect to their expenditures would be more frugle in money sinks like war and so forth. Though the US has never been exactly quick when it comes to national lessons. As someone said earlier, those nations that have actually underwent large scale conflicts on their home soil are usually the last to grab for arms in a conflict. Its disappointing the US cannot do the same, really. But yes, lets continue to make more US citizens eligible for free federal medical coverage by getting them maimed overseas, I think those WMD might be over somewhere near Iran.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2007.11.18 19:20:00 - [170] Amputees are sexy. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!

Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.11.18 22:04:00 - [171] Originally by: Derovius Vaden I just read that the US Senate shot down a bill to increase the funding for the two wars currently underway. Apparently, it costs the US military 2.5 billion a week to maintain its operations. Somehow, they can justify spending billions upon billions to kill people, but not billions upon billions to help their citizens live? Someone needs to take a step back and give this mentality a once over. It certainly would not be your mentality. Your mentality is to call US Marines war criminals that do not deserve any respect in these forums, yet post little poems for Remembrance day of WWI, where US Marine fought. The total amount of the US defense budget, including the Iraq war and protecting nations that do little for themselves, liberating 50 million people and training 300,000 security personnel is 18% of the government's budget. That's it. Remember, you were born and raised in a small country, you live and work in a small country. Numbers to you, may seem large, are trivial.
Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.11.18 22:08:00 - [172] Originally by: Derovius Vaden As someone said earlier, those nations that have actually underwent large scale conflicts on their home soil are usually the last to grab for arms in a conflict. Its disappointing the US cannot do the same, really. No its great. The same nations that brought us World War 1, in which the US saved western Europe from defeat, brought us World War II. Yeah, great example.
Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.11.18 22:47:00 - [173] Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 18/11/2007 22:50:17 Originally by: Leora Nomen Originally by: Lord MuffloN Just out of curiosity, how "high" is the American tax? Both direct and indirect. It varies depending on your situation, but in general if you're single and earning no more than $7.5K you pay about 10% of that to the government, income from $7.5K to $30K gets charged at 15%, income from $30-$75K - 25%, $75-$150K - 28%, over $150K - 33%. In addition there are state taxes. In the state of California for example, if you make 30K and file single you'll be paying about $5.2K of that to government and state. Your low end numbers on taxes are off because of earned income tax credits. If you are counting average state income taxes (which would probably be refunded for low incomes depending on state) and sales taxes to state governments then those numbers might gel. Single person, counting only himself as a dependent that makes 30K pays 3K about to the federal government before any other tax deduction or credit (I am reading directly from the tax tables of Publication 15, Circular E Employer's Tax Guide where federal income tax amounts are calculated for income brackets down to $5. You are using a mix of numbers that I don't understand, because I calculate by hand payroll deductions for my employees. Your 15% for 30K would have to include other numbers. I forget off hand if the standard deduction of over 5K is already counted within federal tax tables. If it isn't, the taxes paid are even lower. As an employer, I would be breaking that law if I deducted more than $62 for a weekly payroll of a employee with a weekly salary of $576.92, counting himself as only one allowance and marked to deduct no additional amount (every tax payer has this option) on the W4 form. In fact, a typical single filer would mark for 2 allowances on the W4 form. The tax amount would then be $52 per week. Your 15% is closer if one counts the government take of social security deduction and medicare (that the employer matches).
Arcticblue2 Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc	Posted - 2007.11.18 23:44:00 - [174] Btw... one segment that did not come with Sicko... Missing part Enjoy ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.
Arcticblue2 Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc	Posted - 2007.11.19 00:15:00 - [175] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Originally by: Derovius Vaden As someone said earlier, those nations that have actually underwent large scale conflicts on their home soil are usually the last to grab for arms in a conflict. Its disappointing the US cannot do the same, really. No its great. The same nations that brought us World War 1, in which the US saved western Europe from defeat, brought us World War II. Yeah, great example. Learn your history ... US had hardly come into the fight with it's troop when WW1 ended... sure the war might have lasted abit longer but the outcome would have been the same. ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers	Posted - 2007.11.19 00:56:00 - [176] Originally by: Arcticblue2 Btw... one segment that did not come with Sicko... Missing part Enjoy LOL! I watched that and the 1st thing that popped into my head was Demolition Man. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you guys have that machine that fines you when you curse as well :)? But seriously, Norway has oil and 5,000,000 people, the majority of people being of the same nationality. You can't compare that to a larger country like the US. The US has more illegal immigrants than people in Norway. Plus they're a rich Oil Nation. It's like me comparing a small community of 100,000 upper middle class people to Norway. It's not a valid comparison. I whole heartedly agree that the penal system here needs a complete overhaul, it's too geared on punishment with little to no rehabilitation. But I can't see a system like that working in the states. We have more hardened criminals here, druglords etc. I wouldn't say it's the model system, but it definitely is a better way to go. More rehabilitation, but I do think there needs to be punishment, I haven't seen any "punishment" in that system. But it's still a spin piece my Moorer. The standards of living may be good, and rated number #1 by the UN. But he doesn't talk about the cost of all. He's just saying ohhh look at all this good stuff, what about the heavy taxes? He's showing you all this good stuff, with the happy little music. He's not even trying to be objective. He didn't talk about the size of the people, the demographics of the people, the wealth of the people. The relationship between the wealth of the nation small poverty levels. He leaves you with the impression that if the US just adopted that system, that things would be work just like that. Which is probably far from the truth. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Atama Cardel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.19 01:54:00 - [177] Originally by: Arcticblue2 Btw... one segment that did not come with Sicko... Missing part Enjoy Did someone in Norway seriously think that sending a person who hacked up two people with a chainsaw to a resort (that was not a prison) was a good idea? This message is:
Arcticblue2 Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc	Posted - 2007.11.19 02:15:00 - [178] Originally by: Rialtor Originally by: Arcticblue2 Btw... one segment that did not come with Sicko... Missing part Enjoy LOL! I watched that and the 1st thing that popped into my head was Demolition Man. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you guys have that machine that fines you when you curse as well :)? But seriously, Norway has oil and 5,000,000 people, the majority of people being of the same nationality. You can't compare that to a larger country like the US. The US has more illegal immigrants than people in Norway. Plus they're a rich Oil Nation. It's like me comparing a small community of 100,000 upper middle class people to Norway. It's not a valid comparison. I whole heartedly agree that the penal system here needs a complete overhaul, it's too geared on punishment with little to no rehabilitation. But I can't see a system like that working in the states. We have more hardened criminals here, druglords etc. I wouldn't say it's the model system, but it definitely is a better way to go. More rehabilitation, but I do think there needs to be punishment, I haven't seen any "punishment" in that system. But it's still a spin piece my Moorer. The standards of living may be good, and rated number #1 by the UN. But he doesn't talk about the cost of all. He's just saying ohhh look at all this good stuff, what about the heavy taxes? He's showing you all this good stuff, with the happy little music. He's not even trying to be objective. He didn't talk about the size of the people, the demographics of the people, the wealth of the people. The relationship between the wealth of the nation small poverty levels. He leaves you with the impression that if the US just adopted that system, that things would be work just like that. Which is probably far from the truth. Nah.. I hope we do not have one of these cursesmachines... where I live cursing is part of our daily language, colorful language And to the rest, yeah I know it is not possible to do the same in US, would cost lots of more than the whole Iraqi war cost so far I belive. These things maybe work in a small population like Norway and Sweden ... As to taxes, I don't know ... I don't feel so taxed out really. Ofcourse there are those who complain and thinks they pay out too much taxes and there are some taxes that I do not agree on ofcourse. See it this way... part of my taxbill is comparable with a health insurance in US... only difference is that the government is forcing me to pay it while in US it is your choise. ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.
Arcticblue2 Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc	Posted - 2007.11.19 02:17:00 - [179] Originally by: Atama Cardel Edited by: Atama Cardel on 19/11/2007 02:13:33 Originally by: Arcticblue2 Btw... one segment that did not come with Sicko... Missing part Enjoy Did someone in Norway seriously think that sending a person who hacked up two people with a chainsaw to a resort (that was not a prison) was a good idea? Edit: oops, my sig appears to be a bit big Aparently it did work did it not ? and he had the experience with the chainsaw ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.
Atama Cardel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.19 02:29:00 - [180] Originally by: Arcticblue2 Originally by: Atama Cardel Edited by: Atama Cardel on 19/11/2007 02:13:33 Originally by: Arcticblue2 Btw... one segment that did not come with Sicko... Missing part Enjoy Did someone in Norway seriously think that sending a person who hacked up two people with a chainsaw to a resort (that was not a prison) was a good idea? Edit: oops, my sig appears to be a bit big Aparently it did work did it not ? and he had the experience with the chainsaw I'd honestly would like to see that system tried on a serial killer from the US, I don't think it would turn out too well This message is:



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