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How about a 3rd T2 ammo type for everyone?

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The ArchWarder Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.17 08:23:00 - [31] Originally by: xHalcyonx Looks at Sig Yes, Blaze M IS a real crystal ingame. Ask Entity to link it for you as he has one of the very few in existance. Amarr Oomph right here ^, However I would make it 50% 60% range reduction. I would be reluctant to have both EM and EXP on the same crystal, i would have a low Therm damage and High EXP so you cant have the Do-all crystal.
Diomidis Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.17 11:02:00 - [32] It's funny when ppl try to "prove" themselves through scientific "evidence" on how Lasers are dmg type restricted, while other "modules" or attributes like the Shield or the Armor resistances to various dmg types coming from different sources is totally based on unrealistic (or unproved at least) assumptions.
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.17 11:12:00 - [33] Originally by: The ArchWarder Originally by: xHalcyonx Looks at Sig Yes, Blaze M IS a real crystal ingame. Ask Entity to link it for you as he has one of the very few in existance. Amarr Oomph right here ^, However I would make it 50% 60% range reduction. I would be reluctant to have both EM and EXP on the same crystal, i would have a low Therm damage and High EXP so you cant have the Do-all crystal. Good point. This science mumbo-jumbo has no meaning for Lasers. Personally though, I think lasers should do multispectral damage. I.E equal amounts of all damage types. Obviously with lower DPS to compensate.
Maritz Gallente WarpCorp DeStInY.	Posted - 2007.11.17 11:13:00 - [34] Originally by: Spike 68 Edited by: Spike 68 on 17/11/2007 03:56:17 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: M00dy Sorry but lasers can't do anything but EM and thermal damage. Please explain. Im pretty sure youre not the one with a physics degree... no thats pretty much spot on, sure if you want to get really technical some theories would suggest that light carries mass and could be considered to carry some very tiny kinetic energy (kinetic damage). But it would be so much lower than what it would be dishing out in the EM/Therm departments its not even worth mentioning. As per explosive dmg, the only reason why EVE has it is for balance issues because explosions are really just a combination of EM/Therm/kin dmg anyway. (because there are 4 races makes sense to have 4 dmg types. yeah sorry but this idea is silly, but I would like my blaster ammo with a falloff bonus back. EDIT: I know its going to come up about the whole "oh NASA can use solar sails in space yada yada" this has never been tried but in theory it is possible if you have huge sails to carry pretty small(very light) cargo. Im tired of hearing the exp dmg crystal if youc ant tell. Photons have zero rest mass. That's why they travel at c (300,000m/s). It does carry energy, of course, which is affected by gravity (gravitational lensing etc.) Eve generally isn't too concerned with real-world physics so they could probably give it whatever type of damage they like for balance purposes. The way speed and inertia work in Eve is genuinely weird but it works from a gaming point of view. Very well... Give him CAKE
TCP	Posted - 2007.11.17 11:31:00 - [35] Just my two pence worth but why not have/invent a Holraum forming crystal/weapon that does zero damage takes a weapon or crystal slot and needs differential crystals to form a nuclear type explosion...bingo, different damage with loss of 1 or more crystal/weapon slots for a Holraum former and needing a shorter ranged crystal in at least one weapon so cutting range.
Annowyn Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.17 11:35:00 - [36] Edited by: Annowyn on 17/11/2007 11:36:33 I like the idea; however it could be argued that faction ammo exists to fill these holes, and the trade off for tech 2 performance is the commitment to close range (putting you in a more difficult situation in most cases) or long range (most times allowing you two to three more volleys before an enemy ship of same class gets where he wants to be). EDIT: SPeLlIng.
Juha85 Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.11.17 12:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Spike 68 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Please forget the physical explanations, its a game and laser damage is pita. you asked for a physical explanation but as for laser dmg its pretty insane (expecially for its range) its just that armor tanks have high resists for the dmg lasers do. Nowadays this "insane laser damage" everyone is talking about is pretty much a myth. Yes, the 750 dps (or was it 650) that my corpmate does in his gank harbinger is really a myth. It's still a myth even when he solo's drakes, megathrons and abaddons in it.. or pretty much anything he catches. Yes. The laser damage is really poor. --------------------------------------- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.17 12:14:00 - [38] It's a dirty solution, too dirty. Theres other ways to do this cleanly, we just need to come up with them! For starters perhaps crystals should do more thermal than em damage? Of course Khanid II helped to an extent. I'm sure theres a stubborn few who refuse to train for missiles but thats their loss. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.11.17 12:17:00 - [39] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 17/11/2007 12:17:42 like an ultra short range blaster ammo with uber damage ?? im all for it
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.17 12:53:00 - [40] Originally by: Juha85 Yes, the 750 dps (or was it 650) that my corpmate does in his gank harbinger is really a myth. It's still a myth even when he solo's drakes, megathrons and abaddons in it.. or pretty much anything he catches. Yes. The laser damage is really poor. Yup, that is a myth. You can do 672 max in a Harb for a solo build, but its not as good as the lower DPS fittings.

madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.17 14:30:00 - [41] LOL _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:04:00 - [42] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 17/11/2007 16:06:27 Originally by: Maritz Originally by: Spike 68 Edited by: Spike 68 on 17/11/2007 03:56:17 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: M00dy Sorry but lasers can't do anything but EM and thermal damage. Please explain. Im pretty sure youre not the one with a physics degree... no thats pretty much spot on, sure if you want to get really technical some theories would suggest that light carries mass and could be considered to carry some very tiny kinetic energy (kinetic damage). But it would be so much lower than what it would be dishing out in the EM/Therm departments its not even worth mentioning. As per explosive dmg, the only reason why EVE has it is for balance issues because explosions are really just a combination of EM/Therm/kin dmg anyway. (because there are 4 races makes sense to have 4 dmg types. yeah sorry but this idea is silly, but I would like my blaster ammo with a falloff bonus back. EDIT: I know its going to come up about the whole "oh NASA can use solar sails in space yada yada" this has never been tried but in theory it is possible if you have huge sails to carry pretty small(very light) cargo. Im tired of hearing the exp dmg crystal if youc ant tell. Photons have zero rest mass. That's why they travel at c (300,000m/s). LIES! Photons cause momentum on an area that they are hitting.
Dracon Zethera	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:56:00 - [43] Originally by: Draydin You are all correct. There is no way that a laser could do projectile or explosive damage. Cough* http://www.lightcrafttechnologies.com/technology.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam-powered_propulsion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_propulsion A laser can launch a projectile just as well as a gun can. If that projectile is light and fast, then you have kenetic damage. If that projectile is filled with explosives then you have an explosive round. A. That isn't using the laser for damage anymore. B. You would need a new ammo type because you wouldn't be able to do this with a lens. C. You would need a new specialized gun to use this new ammo type. D. (from the backstory) Amarr use lasers because it has some religious tie, I guess you can say you are removing what importance the laser has by making it do work rather than making it the source of damage. Kind of like demeaning it like Amarr do with minmatar slaves.
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:58:00 - [44] I'd rather they start with making tech 2 ammo more useful especially close range ammo. Join The Fight With Promo Today
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Dracon Zethera Originally by: Draydin You are all correct. There is no way that a laser could do projectile or explosive damage. Cough* http://www.lightcrafttechnologies.com/technology.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam-powered_propulsion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_propulsion A laser can launch a projectile just as well as a gun can. If that projectile is light and fast, then you have kenetic damage. If that projectile is filled with explosives then you have an explosive round. A. That isn't using the laser for damage anymore. B. You would need a new ammo type because you wouldn't be able to do this with a lens. C. You would need a new specialized gun to use this new ammo type. D. (from the backstory) Amarr use lasers because it has some religious tie, I guess you can say you are removing what importance the laser has by making it do work rather than making it the source of damage. Kind of like demeaning it like Amarr do with minmatar slaves. So the effects arent that big, but they are still there. Do you even know what kind of insane power you would need to actually make a laser that cuts through ship hulls? This is still a game aye...
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.17 17:49:00 - [46] hahahaha Its allways ends like this. Lasers and physics in a computer space game. Why not discuss the game balance instead of this? . . . ...Wait you suggest a Explo/Kin crystal and probably want a reload the entire rack in 1 go option aswell. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH Its rediculous! _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 17:52:00 - [47] Originally by: madaluap hahahaha Its allways ends like this. Lasers and physics in a computer space game. Why not discuss the game balance instead of this? . . . ...Wait you suggest a Explo/Kin crystal and probably want a reload the entire rack in 1 go option aswell. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH Its rediculous! Oh so now that crystal reload times actually matter and work as a bonus you bring it up and say its overpowered. Ok so you agree that right now lasers do get shafted with "fake" upsides.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.17 18:31:00 - [48] Edited by: madaluap on 17/11/2007 18:35:48 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: madaluap hahahaha Its allways ends like this. Lasers and physics in a computer space game. Why not discuss the game balance instead of this? . . . ...Wait you suggest a Explo/Kin crystal and probably want a reload the entire rack in 1 go option aswell. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH Its rediculous! Oh so now that crystal reload times actually matter and work as a bonus you bring it up and say its overpowered. Ok so you agree that right now lasers do get shafted with "fake" upsides. Its not the first time, you and me have agreed on that. The current "insta" reload is not a insta reload, crystals get stuck, A LOT. /edit: Because of the small falloff amarr relies on fast crystal swapping, swapping crystals should give amarr a edge in pvp, that other races do not have. Combined with the tactical overview you can see what the optimal range is and keep reloading to deal max ammount of DPS. A decent crystal using pilot would have far more DPS than a 10 sec reload pilot. A good step into the direction of making medrange more usefull. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Max Hardcase Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:07:00 - [49] IIRC wasnt it mentioned by some dev that they're looking @ a reload all with ammo X button ?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:16:00 - [50] Originally by: Max Hardcase IIRC wasnt it mentioned by some dev that they're looking @ a reload all with ammo X button ? Yes, and even without it Amarr would change too fast to make damage type variation of the sort propsed even remotely balanced.

mama guru Gallente Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.17 22:26:00 - [51] Im all for a 3rd T2 ammo type if its high tracking. Think an Aurora/Scorch crystal's dps but 0% range bonus and a 1.5x tracking modifier, aswell as increased cap usage. Thats something i'd like. *signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected]) EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 22:59:00 - [52] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Max Hardcase IIRC wasnt it mentioned by some dev that they're looking @ a reload all with ammo X button ? Yes, and even without it Amarr would change too fast to make damage type variation of the sort propsed even remotely balanced. Oh noes, lasers would actually be the best weaponry. A weapon that takes most grid, cap and sucks up one big ship bonus. Oh noes now it would actually be WORTH the downsides.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.18 08:43:00 - [53] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Max Hardcase IIRC wasnt it mentioned by some dev that they're looking @ a reload all with ammo X button ? Yes, and even without it Amarr would change too fast to make damage type variation of the sort propsed even remotely balanced. Oh noes, lasers would actually be the best weaponry. A weapon that takes most grid, cap and sucks up one big ship bonus. Oh noes now it would actually be WORTH the downsides. It wouldnt be balanced, it doesnt matter how hard it is to fit, it doesnt matter how much cap it uses, it doesnt matter how many ship bonuses it uses, if the end result is "it wouldnt be balanced" then you stop and figure out something else.
Zingo Aleig	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:17:00 - [54] when they didnt put in the third ammo type devs said it was because they couldnt find decent roles for them. Amarr has been whining for explosive crystals forever, but those wont get ingame until minmatar get something equally funky. So basicly, find something for minmatar that's equivalent to amarr getting explosive crystals and you can pitch your i want explosive damage idea to a dev again,
marie claude	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:37:00 - [55] Edited by: marie claude on 18/11/2007 11:38:47 sigh...lasers can do kin and explosive damage i have seen it in the lab. modulated anharmonics can cause metals to expolde so it would do exp to armor. pulsing lasers with the polarity switching back and forth 50,000 tmes a second set up vibrations in air and solids so it would do some kin damge 30% lets say.i have seen lasers shatter rock into a powder and make steel explode like a grenade. what we really need is an explosive and em hybrid ammo.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:45:00 - [56] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 17/11/2007 06:34:46 The solution for the 'EM damage is inferior' problem is not a dirty workaround. A real solution would be to actually make EM more viable, in both PvE and PvP. For example: - EM always being the weakest NPC shield resistance (not armor) - Lowering basic EM armor resistance by 5%, redistribute the Minmatar EM armor boost to 5% EM and 5% Therm. So the new values would be: 55% EM for Caldari, Gallente, Amarr 60% EM for Minmatar (40% Therm) Apart from that I won't say lasers can't do Exp or Kin damage. I'm going to say lasers in EVE shouldn't do Exp or Kin damage. Reason: game balance and variety. If you want Exp, use projectiles, if you want Kin, use railguns. Why can minmatar and caldari use ALL damage types? I think variety went down the drain a long time ago when it comes to damage types. If you want your lasers to do Explosive/Kinetic damage, then I want my missiles to have 50% higher velocity and 500% higher explosion velocity. The Gallante will want their drones to travel 100% faster and have 500% more hitpoints, and we both want our 425mms to be able to track the side of a barn. And fire EM/Explosive rounds. All the main weapon systems have a glaring horrible weakness. Almost as if... ...it was meant to be that way. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:48:00 - [57] Originally by: marie claude Edited by: marie claude on 18/11/2007 11:38:47 sigh...lasers can do kin and explosive damage i have seen it in the lab. modulated anharmonics can cause metals to expolde so it would do exp to armor. pulsing lasers with the polarity switching back and forth 50,000 tmes a second set up vibrations in air and solids so it would do some kin damge 30% lets say.i have seen lasers shatter rock into a powder and make steel explode like a grenade. what we really need is an explosive and em hybrid ammo. sigh the explosives in missile warheads detonate a LOT faster than 500m/s... You can have physics in EvE or you can have game balance in EvE. Pick one. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Vireti	Posted - 2007.11.18 13:23:00 - [58] /me pittys any op attracting Goumindongs trolling.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.18 14:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 17/11/2007 06:34:46 The solution for the 'EM damage is inferior' problem is not a dirty workaround. A real solution would be to actually make EM more viable, in both PvE and PvP. For example: - EM always being the weakest NPC shield resistance (not armor) - Lowering basic EM armor resistance by 5%, redistribute the Minmatar EM armor boost to 5% EM and 5% Therm. So the new values would be: 55% EM for Caldari, Gallente, Amarr 60% EM for Minmatar (40% Therm) Apart from that I won't say lasers can't do Exp or Kin damage. I'm going to say lasers in EVE shouldn't do Exp or Kin damage. Reason: game balance and variety. If you want Exp, use projectiles, if you want Kin, use railguns. Why can minmatar and caldari use ALL damage types? I think variety went down the drain a long time ago when it comes to damage types. If you want your lasers to do Explosive/Kinetic damage, then I want my missiles to have 50% higher velocity and 500% higher explosion velocity. The Gallante will want their drones to travel 100% faster and have 500% more hitpoints, and we both want our 425mms to be able to track the side of a barn. And fire EM/Explosive rounds. All the main weapon systems have a glaring horrible weakness. Almost as if... ...it was meant to be that way. Maybe you should do the missile and turret guide again? Missile velocity and explosion velocity have to do with tracking and not with damage types.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.18 14:59:00 - [60] Originally by: Zingo Aleig when they didnt put in the third ammo type devs said it was because they couldnt find decent roles for them. Amarr has been whining for explosive crystals forever, but those wont get ingame until minmatar get something equally funky. So basicly, find something for minmatar that's equivalent to amarr getting explosive crystals and you can pitch your i want explosive damage idea to a dev again, But minmatar would get a mid range T2 ammo with good damage that does therm/kin damage. Who wouldnt want that? What race doesnt want a mid range T2 ammo, something inbetween the two other T2 ammo types?



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