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Brianna Talnor	Posted - 2007.11.17 20:35:00 - [1] Instead of a 10% less cap use on lasers if they gave the apoc a 10 or 20% bonus to cap damage or range when using neuts or nos the ship would be a very cool BS with a unique non faction BS role. you just fit 4 guns and 4 neuts and call it a dang day! Perfect for solo or gangs and not ridiculously overpowered. A battleship sized curse...
Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.17 20:39:00 - [2] its been suggested before, but it wouldnt be right for a non t2 ship to get a neut range like that i think, maybe a reduction in laser cap use and an optimal range bonus for lasers would be better, or a revamp as a missile ship.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.17 20:41:00 - [3] Make it a 6/6/6 Apoc with drones and a TD eff + range bonus... Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 20:43:00 - [4] Originally by: Liang Nuren Make it a 6/6/6 Apoc with drones and a TD eff + range bonus... Liang amen.
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:55:00 - [5] i'm guessing a 5/4/7 with 5 launcherslots and 125MB drone bandwith with 5% resist and 5% more cap for each lvl of amarr BS would be to much to ask for? Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.17 22:08:00 - [6] Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw i'm guessing a 5/4/7 with 5 launcherslots and 125MB drone bandwith with 5% resist and 5% more cap for each lvl of amarr BS would be to much to ask for? IME, unbonused missiles kinda suck. I'm not sure what you'd be wanting out of that ship, except for uber tank. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Harsin	Posted - 2007.11.17 23:15:00 - [7] Make it knanid version with missiles. For pvp we already got armageddon and abaddon.
StinkFinger Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.17 23:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Brianna Talnor Instead of a 10% less cap use on lasers if they gave the apoc a 10 or 20% bonus to cap damage or range when using neuts or nos the ship would be a very cool BS with a unique non faction BS role. you just fit 4 guns and 4 neuts and call it a dang day! Perfect for solo or gangs and not ridiculously overpowered. A battleship sized curse... Just make +10% mining yield per level. Originally by: Karanth That's like sitting on your hand till it goes numb, so it's like a stranger. It's not as satisfying, and I'LL know the difference.
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Heretic Army The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.17 23:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Liang Nuren Make it a 6/6/6 Apoc with drones and a TD eff + range bonus... Liang This. Three different BS's. Tank, Gank, Arbi. --- Amarr/Caldari, and proud of it. Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 23:40:00 - [10] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 17/11/2007 23:40:52 Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis Originally by: Liang Nuren Make it a 6/6/6 Apoc with drones and a TD eff + range bonus... Liang This. Three different BS's. Tank, Gank, Arbi. Abaddon ganks better then geddon. The truth is. We got a good gank/tank battleship = abaddon. Then we got basically the same battleship but slightly worse but still good = geddon. And we got apoc = useless.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.17 23:48:00 - [11] hmm.... 8-3-8, with increased cap, grid and replace recharge bonus for range bonus? --- planetary interaction idea!
08891	Posted - 2007.11.18 00:18:00 - [12] Edited by: 08891 on 18/11/2007 00:18:25 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Abaddon ganks better then geddon. The truth is. We got a good gank/tank battleship = abaddon. Then we got basically the same battleship but slightly worse but still good = geddon. And we got apoc = useless. Geddon has higher dps. Abaddon is a better sniper and has more flexibility with its 4th mid and waaay easier fittings.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.18 00:23:00 - [13] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/11/2007 00:24:40 Originally by: 08891 Edited by: 08891 on 18/11/2007 00:18:25 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Abaddon ganks better then geddon. The truth is. We got a good gank/tank battleship = abaddon. Then we got basically the same battleship but slightly worse but still good = geddon. And we got apoc = useless. Geddon has higher dps. Abaddon is a better sniper and has more flexibility with its 4th mid and waaay easier fittings. No geddon doesnt have higher dps. Where are you getting this from? At max skills there is like 50dps difference and that INCLUDING drones. Abaddon does way more damage from its guns and will basically always do more damage in real fights.
Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.18 00:32:00 - [14] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Abaddon ganks better then geddon. I'm not a dps quoting person but I'm a very regular geddon pilot, and in my experience no other battleship out there puts out the amount of raw pwn that the geddon does.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.18 00:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Gneeznow Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Abaddon ganks better then geddon. I'm not a dps quoting person but I'm a very regular geddon pilot, and in my experience no other battleship out there puts out the amount of raw pwn that the geddon does. Then you havent seen many abaddons. The Abaddon and geddon have basically the same total damage when including drones but since geddon gets more of its damage through drones the geddon falls short tbh. You rather have the instant damage from your turrets. Also abaddon beats the geddon in tanking. Both these ships do well with passive plate tanks and abaddon beats geddon by far in this game. So one wonders why there is a geddon, right now its the price tag on the ships. Geddon is alot of pewpew for little space bucks. If price on geddon and abaddon would be the same no one would choose a geddon tbh.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.18 01:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer right now its the price tag on the ships. Geddon is alot of pewpew for little space bucks. If price on geddon and abaddon would be the same no one would choose a geddon tbh. exactly. --- planetary interaction idea!
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.11.18 03:05:00 - [17] Geddons dronebay makes up for its 3 mids, you don't HAve to put damage drones in there.
08891	Posted - 2007.11.18 03:36:00 - [18] Edited by: 08891 on 18/11/2007 03:36:30 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No geddon doesnt have higher dps. Where are you getting this from? At max skills there is like 50dps difference and that INCLUDING drones. Abaddon does way more damage from its guns and will basically always do more damage in real fights. Obviously the Abaddon does more damage from its guns, but that's not what you had said. No, Abaddon will not " basically always do more damage in real fights." It depends on many things but mostly engagement range. I can think of plenty of situations where a Geddon will do more damage. Solo against a close range ship? Geddon. Warping in on a tackled target? Geddon. Engaging at station undock? Geddon. Engaging at medium to long range? Abaddon. And most importantly the point you've completly missed: the Geddon can have a larger portion of its damage be explosive (zerkers) making the gap in effective damage bigger against armor tanks. It's not all about raw dps.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.18 03:46:00 - [19] Originally by: 08891 Edited by: 08891 on 18/11/2007 03:36:30 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No geddon doesnt have higher dps. Where are you getting this from? At max skills there is like 50dps difference and that INCLUDING drones. Abaddon does way more damage from its guns and will basically always do more damage in real fights. Obviously the Abaddon does more damage from its guns, but that's not what you had said. No, Abaddon will not " basically always do more damage in real fights." It depends on many things but mostly engagement range. I can think of plenty of situations where a Geddon will do more damage. Solo against a close range ship? Geddon. Warping in on a tackled target? Geddon. Engaging at station undock? Geddon. Engaging at medium to long range? Abaddon. And most importantly the point you've completly missed: the Geddon can have a larger portion of its damage be explosive (zerkers) making the gap in effective damage bigger against armor tanks. It's not all about raw dps. No. The only way geddon is by a large margin outdpsing an abaddon in ANY range is if the target has really sick EM resistance, like T2 minmatar ships. Uhm solo against close range ship? Abaddon, it can fit 2 webs and hit better and dictate range within those 10kms and isnt much effected by losing drones either. Station fighting? The geddon is a lol version of what a heavy passive plated abaddon can do around stations. Warping in on tackled target? Kinda same dps unless the target is like 25km away, then geddon loses again because them ogres arent that fast... The problem of eanm tanking has nothing to do with the dps comparison and the difference even so isnt that great. On the other hand the abaddon has a 4th mid AND a much better tank. There is no way an abaddon falls short in pretty much any way compared to a geddon except price.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.11.18 03:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No geddon doesnt have higher dps. Where are you getting this from? At max skills there is like 50dps difference and that INCLUDING drones. Abaddon does way more damage from its guns and will basically always do more damage in real fights. Geddon does more dps, but Abaddon has higher alpha. Do your calculations again. To the OP, you are getting very close to the bhaalgorn. Imho, I wouldnt mind changing the blood faction ships, and letting the Apoc get a neut bonus though. Or making a drone boat of it, or missile boat, or EW or something else usefull.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.18 03:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No geddon doesnt have higher dps. Where are you getting this from? At max skills there is like 50dps difference and that INCLUDING drones. Abaddon does way more damage from its guns and will basically always do more damage in real fights. Geddon does more dps, but Abaddon has higher alpha. Do your calculations again. To the OP, you are getting very close to the bhaalgorn. Imho, I wouldnt mind changing the blood faction ships, and letting the Apoc get a neut bonus though. Or making a drone boat of it, or missile boat, or EW or something else usefull. Oh please... Geddon with drones, max skills, 3xdmg mods, 5xogreII, megapulse conflag = 1184dps Abaddon with drones 2+2+1, max skills, 3xdmg mods, megapulse conflag = 1139 dps 1184-1139 = 45dps difference in favor of geddon. Geddon without drones, same as above = 867 dps Abaddon without drones, same as above = 929 dps 929-867 = 62dps 45dps advantage when counting drones in but losing 62dps when not counting drones isnt really what i call a difference worth mentioning. What a difference is though, that abaddon has 4mids instead of 3 and tanks alot better. How dare you compare a geddon to an abaddon? I still dont get it.
08891	Posted - 2007.11.18 04:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No. The only way geddon is by a large margin outdpsing an abaddon in ANY range is if the target has really sick EM resistance, like T2 minmatar ships. Or standard EANM + DCU setups. Which are everwhere. Quote: Uhm solo against close range ship? Abaddon, it can fit 2 webs and hit better and dictate range within those 10kms and isnt much effected by losing drones either. Dual webbing yes, against some ships. Good luck catching a tempest in web range with an Abaddon for example. It's not affected as much by losing drones, it's more affected by being damped/td-ed/jammed. Quote: Station fighting? The geddon is a lol version of what a heavy passive plated abaddon can do around stations. Not in terms of damage output no. Quote: Warping in on tackled target? Kinda same dps unless the target is like 25km away, then geddon loses again because them ogres arent that fast... Warp to zero on your tackler. Quote: The problem of eanm tanking has nothing to do with the dps comparison Damage types are very meaningful in terms of effective damage in actual combat. DPS comparisons in a vacuum aren't worth anything, especially considering the prevalence of armor tanks in pvp. Tell me how an Abaddon will do against a plated gankathron with EANM/IFFA/2 plates. Resists: 74/58/58/42 EM/THERM/KIN/EXPLO. Quote: the difference even so isnt that great. See above. Quote: On the other hand the abaddon has a 4th mid AND a much better tank. All tier 3s are the best tankers of their race. Quote: There is no way an abaddon falls short in pretty much any way compared to a geddon except price. Short range dps. Damage types. But yes the Abaddon has many advantages over it, and price is a factor.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.18 04:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Liang Nuren Make it a 6/6/6 Apoc with drones and a TD eff + range bonus... Liang Yes, and with launchers.
Szaman Viziam	Posted - 2007.11.18 17:44:00 - [24] Quote: Oh please... What a difference is though, that abaddon has 4mids instead of 3 and tanks alot better. How dare you compare a geddon to an abaddon? I still dont get it. The DPS difference isnt that big and the price is. So yea. Geddons rule.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.18 18:20:00 - [25] Give it enough grid to fit 8 Tach II's without 2 RCUII's. People will use it again. ============================================ Reload all with <AmmoType>
Insidi Us Amarr Suicidal Mercenaries Pure.	Posted - 2007.11.18 18:27:00 - [26] The only thing that can save the Apoc is to make it a pretty little snowflake of the galaxy, i.e. make it truly unique. How do you do that with the cap bonus? Change the cap reduction bonus to a smartbomb damage and range bonus. ------------- RIP Constructive Criticism
Cudeiro Amarr Hispania Armored Forces	Posted - 2007.11.18 19:46:00 - [27] Originally by: Liang Nuren Make it a 6/6/6 Apoc with drones and a TD eff + range bonus... Liang Amen! It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Cotton Tail Domination. Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.18 20:02:00 - [28] Edited by: Cotton Tail on 18/11/2007 20:02:45 Originally by: Insidi Us The only thing that can save the Apoc is to make it a pretty little snowflake of the galaxy, i.e. make it truly unique. How do you do that with the cap bonus? Change the cap reduction bonus to a smartbomb damage and range bonus. Or something like giving it a 20% reduction in laser cap use per level rather than 10%. Level 5 BS = Capless lasers, would certainly make it unique and useful.
HarryManback Minmatar Gr0und Zer0	Posted - 2007.11.18 20:41:00 - [29] apoc is not as useles as people are suggesting you just need to gank setup with plates and a nice gang and it is a decent ship. I do agree it could use some lovin. Just like the Vargur. Amarr Recon/Electronics Attack Ship/almost Black Ops pilot for auction
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.18 21:34:00 - [30] Get the acp bonus of the apoc. Remove it. Increase apoc base Cap value by 20%. Now give the apoc a Smartbomb range bonus. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

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