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Sarah Aubry
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.11.21 02:52:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sarah Aubry on 21/11/2007 02:51:55
I recently watched the Battlestar Galactica Razor movie, so please forgive the comparisons, I know eve is not trying to be BSG but these ideas still apply.
In eve we have many giant ships which are really quite useless at defending themselves.
Consider this, a ship which is a few km long and has 8 giant turrets capable of inflicting major damage against other large ships, is completely vulnerable to small ships.
Let's not compare to an aircraft carrier or battlestar, as these are more like our motherships and that's a seperate issue.
Let's look at our battleships and cruisers. In the ambulation video recently you saw the size of a cruiser (the Zealot). That sucker was HUGE!
I find it hard to believe that a ship that size would not have effective close range defences.
checkout the armament of a US cruiser
So i propose the following, limited number of small only highslots, these would be slots that can ONLY have a small turret/launcher fitted or nothing at all (eg no other high slot modules)
Exmaple of a Zealot with this might be:
4x heavy beam laser II
3x dual light pulse laser II (maybe not even able to fit small beams here)
A battleship should be a lot more capable, maybe 5-8 small turrets for close range defence.
I think all capitals should have room for 8 but more would be interesting too.
I would like to see something like this experimented with on sisi, so a carrier might have 8-16 close range small defences, maybe even cruiser sized weapons.
The next part is whether these should be manual or auto control, or perhaps have the option for both. So you could leave them on automatic defence but they wouldn't focus fire, or take manual control if you want to manage them yourselves.
I think we can all agree that a carrier being tackled by an rifter and having only its fighters/drones for defence is pretty lame.
Comments?
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Katashi Ishizuka
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Posted - 2007.11.21 03:23:00 -
[2]
You can have it when my frigates get anti-battleship torpedoes.
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Linavin
Mercurialis Inc.
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.21 03:30:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Linavin on 21/11/2007 03:33:40
Rules of Internet Spaceship Dicussion Forums
1. Never use real life comparisons to justify potential changes.
2. Consider why the Dev's maintain the current balance style of the game at the moment and consider how and why your suggestion could disrupt such balance if it does.
3. Consider the technical feasability of your suggestion, aside from the balance perspective, does the engine/interface/combat system support such an idea?
And in Response-
Drones, Webs, EW, Tank, & (most of all) gangmates
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Kurogauna
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Posted - 2007.11.21 03:34:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Kurogauna on 21/11/2007 03:35:18
 Quote:
1. Never use real life comparisons to justify potential changes.
2. Consider why the Dev's maintain the current balance style of the game at the moment and consider how and why your suggestion could disrupt such balance if it does.
3. Consider the technical feasability of your suggestion, aside from the balance perspective, does the engine/interface/combat system support such an idea?
I want anti missile Gatling 
"Phalanx"
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Cha Jeng
Zenith of Things
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Posted - 2007.11.21 03:42:00 -
[5]
Clearly you are missing the point of the game. If the bigger ships were better in every way to the smaller ships what would the point be to fly the smaller ships?
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Jennai
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.21 03:49:00 -
[6]
obviously you didn't play before the missile changes, when torps/cruiser did full damage to everything and the lifespan of the average fleet tackler was measured in seconds.
uber kill-everything battleships are not compatible with interesting group pvp.
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Caffeine Junkie
Caldari
Veni Vidi Vici.
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.21 03:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Katashi I****uka
You can have it when my frigates get anti-battleship torpedoes.
Ummmm....so whats a stealth bomber then?
Click here -> Unbalance EVE |
Caffeine Junkie
Caldari
Veni Vidi Vici.
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.21 03:55:00 -
[8]
I can see the OP's point, however it would be overpowered to fit them on standard battleships. However a variant of battleship (or even BC) that was solely designed for point-blank defence would be good, allowing it to defend other battleships in the fleet. But then again, thats what interceptors are for.
Click here -> Unbalance EVE |
Linavin
Mercurialis Inc.
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.21 03:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jennai
obviously you didn't play before the turret trackign/quote]
Even worse, frigates were easily trackable even by long range battleship guns.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.11.21 04:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Caffeine Junkie
Originally by: Katashi I****uka
You can have it when my frigates get anti-battleship torpedoes.
Ummmm....so whats a stealth bomber then?
A ship with anti frigate cruise missles.
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Andrew Olaffsen
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Posted - 2007.11.21 04:46:00 -
[11]
I was covering this topic in another thread. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=640184
It seems everytime this idea is brought up it is instantly smashed or debated until both sides are blue. The only way it could work while maintaing balance would be to give frigates or assault frig the ability to carry A LIMITED NUMBER of anti BS torps. that way there couldnt be a solo BS ganker in a wolf. At the same time a BS point defence or gun crews or whatever would hae to be nerfed as well. There is a way to accomplish adding these types of features in the game while maintaining balance but until both the big ship guys and the littel ship guys meet and work it out civily then bring the idea to CCP it will only be an idea.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.11.21 04:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Andrew Olaffsen
I was covering this topic in another thread. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=640184
It seems everytime this idea is brought up it is instantly smashed or debated until both sides are blue. The only way it could work while maintaing balance would be to give frigates or assault frig the ability to carry A LIMITED NUMBER of anti BS torps. that way there couldnt be a solo BS ganker in a wolf. At the same time a BS point defence or gun crews or whatever would hae to be nerfed as well. There is a way to accomplish adding these types of features in the game while maintaining balance but until both the big ship guys and the littel ship guys meet and work it out civily then bring the idea to CCP it will only be an idea.
Or, instead of adding an insane ammount of balance issues to the game, the lone BS can fit a single large NEUT and carry 5 small drones. Problem solved.
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Neon Genesis
The Landed Gentry
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Posted - 2007.11.21 05:14:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Neon Genesis on 21/11/2007 05:15:12
The major problem with this concept is that it's really easy to get into a battleship. Smaller ship classes only survive in the presence on these ships because they can avoid the fire using speed tanking. If you take that away they have nothing, are shot down instantly like back in the old days of no tracking. I can assure you that at that time having a battleship was seriously a prequisite to pvp.
_
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.21 05:24:00 -
[14]
You know, there is *nothing* stopping you from using a couple of those 8 turret slots for weapons which can track and kill frigates. Nothing whatsoever.
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Andrew Olaffsen
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Posted - 2007.11.21 06:10:00 -
[15]
If a rifter did go agaisnt a carrier and could just orbit and fire it would take weeks to die. besides the stealth bomber is there any other fast little bugger than can carry heavy ordinance enough to get the attention of a capital ship? a-la dive bomber style? that would be neat. what about a trade off? ill give you my maelstroms drone bay in favor of 4 or 5 point defence guns? no?
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.11.21 06:30:00 -
[16]
if a carrier gets tackled by a lone rifter and doesn't manage to get out of that situation the ship should implode and the character deleted.
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Andrew Olaffsen
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Posted - 2007.11.21 06:34:00 -
[17]
LOL or permanetly demoted to mammoth pilot carrying garbage between jita and rens...FOREVER!!!!!!
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Dangerously Cheesey
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.21 06:36:00 -
[18]
Theres a whole host of options.
-Energy Neutralizers and Nos
-Small drones
-Webs
-Fitting small guns
-Smaller escort ships designed for taking the smallest ships out (Anti-support snipers like eagle/muninn/zealot, extra web range ships like rapier/huginn/hyena, other small fast ships like destroyers/dictors and other interceptors)
-Remote Repairing
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Andrew Olaffsen
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Posted - 2007.11.21 06:38:00 -
[19]
you know what works sometimes for PvE anyay? hiring decent noobs in frigs as basicaly large better AI drones and theyll be happy when you pay them with loot or salvage.
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Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.11.21 11:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dangerously Cheesey
Theres a whole host of options.
-Energy Neutralizers and Nos
-Small drones
-Webs
-Fitting small guns
-Smaller escort ships designed for taking the smallest ships out (Anti-support snipers like eagle/muninn/zealot, extra web range ships like rapier/huginn/hyena, other small fast ships like destroyers/dictors and other interceptors)
-Remote Repairing
I'm also going to add smartbombs, EW (frigates have low sensor attributes), tanks which will last forever, tracking modules, and target painters.
But mostly just 5 Warrior IIs and webs.
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Sarah Aubry
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:20:00 -
[21]
I think you posters so far are largely missing the point.
These ships are GIANTS and yet only have at most 8 guns?
At the VERY LEAST the capitals should have automatic close range defence (inside 10km) this gives assault frigates a role at last (tackling big ships) as really, a rifter holding down a turret battleship is so rediculous when you consider RP. Show me a chronicle where a t1 frigate held down a battleship while support came to kill it.
IMHO it should be like this:
- Frigs for tackling other frigs, destroyers (if they dare) and cruisers.
- AF's and above (above being cruisers) for tackling battlecruisers, battleships, dreads, carriers
- Hactors (Heavy dictors) for tackling super capitals (already on their way)
Not to say that a smaller ship couldn't try, but if they got in too close I think they should be screwed pretty quickly unless they have an awesome tank.
Auto defences at best would be 10km range on bc/bs and 20km range on capitals. Also these auto defences should continue firing even when the ship is jammed/damped but against a tanked ship they would do wet paper towel damage. Against t1 frigs they would melt them pretty quick.
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Saietor Blackgreen
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:39:00 -
[22]
FFS guys why do you get on this topic again? I think the word "point-defence" should be censored-out on these forums already.
Point defence for battleships is other players in small ships. And everything else (drones, neuts, smarties).
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Sarah Aubry
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:42:00 -
[23]
Because we want our ships to be like the ones in the chronicles.
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:44:00 -
[24]
The problem is that this would make any ship smaller than a bs not worthy to fly it unless you need it for a very specific role, eg scanning or running commandmodules *yawns*
RP wise it is also not particulary great when 99% of every combatship belongs to the largest shipclass btw.
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arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sarah Aubry
Let's not compare to an aircraft carrier or battlestar
...
checkout the armament of a US cruiser
Comments?
Yes, dont fool yourself..?
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♣♣♣Phear my sig!♣♣♣
Nice hamster! - Mindstar
Sorry, that hamster ate your sig - Cortes |
Andrew Olaffsen
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:12:00 -
[26]
As you say, It is a huge ship, and there should be something like gun crews or point defence. Unfortunately, I dont think it will happen. The whole concept is based on depth and RP. Its cool to think about but right now the balance of this game is maintianed only by having every ship basically a frigate. Got from a frig to a destroyer, and your in a frig with more guns. Cruisers: frigates with drone bays. BS: frigates with big guns and more drone space. "But dane, it fires the big guns and missles!" Yeah granted,but still flies and is fitted just like a bigger slower frigate. "But it can pop cruisers easily!" just like a frigate should pop drones easily. "What about battelship and fleet fights?" Two battelships going at it fight each other just like two friagte or cruisers would. Approach, orbit, activate tank or electronic gadgetry, fire all guns and missles, repeat. Id like nothing more than to see more depth and options in the game especially when it comes to the RP aspect and scale. But CCP would have to sit down and actually have to rebalance everything then put it into effect and they are busy trying to make the game prettier. (and doing a damn fine job from what ive seen) Lets just let this topic go to sleep for a while and save ourselves the flamage.
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Cha Jeng
Zenith of Things
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Posted - 2007.11.22 03:15:00 -
[27]
replace that "we" to an "I" and the statement is correct.
It is a terrible idea. I don't like flying a BS, and it would suck if you forced me to by making all smaller ships not viable
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Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.22 03:25:00 -
[28]
There are already so many defenses against small ships that CCP has seen fit to buff inties. Few people fly AF's anymore either.
Many people have pointed those defenses out so I won't be redundant.
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Andrew Olaffsen
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Posted - 2007.11.22 03:29:00 -
[29]
What about giving the AFs the ability to actually do damage to larger ships. Say 4 Torps or something? It would be really effective if you had a gang of 5 AFs all with some Torps and dive bombing
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.11.22 05:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Andrew Olaffsen
As you say, It is a huge ship, and there should be something like gun crews or point defence. Unfortunately, I dont think it will happen. The whole concept is based on depth and RP. Its cool to think about but right now the balance of this game is maintianed only by having every ship basically a frigate. Got from a frig to a destroyer, and your in a frig with more guns. Cruisers: frigates with drone bays. BS: frigates with big guns and more drone space. "But dane, it fires the big guns and missles!" Yeah granted,but still flies and is fitted just like a bigger slower frigate. "But it can pop cruisers easily!" just like a frigate should pop drones easily. "What about battelship and fleet fights?" Two battelships going at it fight each other just like two friagte or cruisers would. Approach, orbit, activate tank or electronic gadgetry, fire all guns and missles, repeat. Id like nothing more than to see more depth and options in the game especially when it comes to the RP aspect and scale. But CCP would have to sit down and actually have to rebalance everything then put it into effect and they are busy trying to make the game prettier. (and doing a damn fine job from what ive seen) Lets just let this topic go to sleep for a while and save ourselves the flamage.
i have yet to see a fleet fight where the bs orbit anything have any noticeable active tank or use electronic gadgetry apart from sensor boosters or tracking computers.
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