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Rawstyle
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.11.21 16:59:00 -
[31]
Op does have valid points, the vaga is far from invulnerable, but its speed, agility and range give it options that *some* other hacs don't have. If the vagabond is over-powered then most nano-ships are also (particularly the ones with a good mix of slots like the ishtar, curse and even sacrelage).
This is less an issue with the vagabond than it is with eve combat generally, a ship which *requires* engagement within or very close to web range is always going to be unpopular for solo work as it makes it a kill-or-be killed engagement. With the lion's share of 0.0 combat being performed by gangs, the potential target list of slightly slower/close range solo ships is drastically reduced.
Naturally ppl that enjoy solo combat want to increase their life expectancey whilst makeing thier *potential target list* as long as possible. The vaga is not more overpowered than any of the affore mentioned nano ships if they are well setup and piloted.
The only feesable argument against the vaga the way it is currently is that it is the only one of the mentioned ships that is being used exactly as intended, while the others are being setup *outside the box* so to speak (at least in terms of ccp's intentions anyway)
Having flown and fought both nano-hacs and vagas extensivly i can say that whilst they are good for certain situations they are far from invicible, they are the only real anti-blob tool available for the solo minded pilot, and against ppl who know how to combat them they are next to useless. They are also highly predictable in both setup and behavioral patterns and contrary to popular belief there are also killable without a web if you are clever with your angles/speed and they are not 100% on the ball.
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Zanarkand
Gallente Enterprise Estonia Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.21 17:56:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:58:31 Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:56:45 Comparing deimos to vagabond in terms of survival.... is stupid.
an example: engaging myrmidon at belt... you have to go to webrange with deimos, you don't with vagabond. Myrm might have web + scram and have friends, with vaga you can fight him at 15km+. Sure, both have to go to 0km to kill a pve raven, but vs other targets vaga has more survivability/flexibility.
Vagabond is not exactly overpowered vs other ships, but it is too good compared to other hacs.
Comparing it to a zealot:
Similar dps at 20km, vaga has better damage types vaga has noticeably higher dps at web, better damage types as well and can actually change between ammo(PP, F, EMP, Hail) tank of vagabond(speed + buffer) is similar to zealot (rep + buffer)
(hidden boost zealot whine)
Vagabond is a bit too strong at the moment. -1 or -2 lowslots would work fine.
One more thing: overheating ceptors(risky for the ceptor pilot) and mwd cruisers can also hurt vagabonds...
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Prez21
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:06:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Zanarkand Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:58:31 Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:56:45 Comparing deimos to vagabond in terms of survival.... is stupid.
an example: engaging myrmidon at belt... you have to go to webrange with deimos, you don't with vagabond. Myrm might have web + scram and have friends, with vaga you can fight him at 15km+. Sure, both have to go to 0km to kill a pve raven, but vs other targets vaga has more survivability/flexibility.
Vagabond is not exactly overpowered vs other ships, but it is too good compared to other hacs.
Comparing it to a zealot:
Similar dps at 20km, vaga has better damage types vaga has noticeably higher dps at web, better damage types as well and can actually change between ammo(PP, F, EMP, Hail) tank of vagabond(speed + buffer) is similar to zealot (rep + buffer)
(hidden boost zealot whine)
Vagabond is a bit too strong at the moment. -1 or -2 lowslots would work fine.
One more thing: overheating ceptors(risky for the ceptor pilot) and mwd cruisers can also hurt vagabonds...
I cant believe youve just said a vaga does as much dps at 20km as a zealot, are you stupid?
I fly both ships and the zealot out damages a vaga at 20km quite easily, yu do jnow you would lose 50% dps on the vaga fighting right at the end of your falloff?
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:29:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Zanarkand
an example: engaging myrmidon at belt... you have to go to webrange with deimos, you don't with vagabond. M
Its not that you don't have to. It's that you can't. You can't because when you do you die. Not having to and not being able are two different things. And its good that the vagabond can't get into web range, it is a compromise it has to do.
Originally by: Zanarkand
Comparing it to a zealot: Similar dps at 20km, vaga has better damage types vaga has noticeably higher dps at web, better damage types as well and can actually change between ammo(PP, F, EMP, Hail) tank of vagabond(speed + buffer) is similar to zealot (rep + buffer)
Drugs in high doses are bad for you. Falloff with T1 ammo is 15km. At that point your maximum dps is approximately 50%. Falloff with hail is 7.5 km. That means at 15 km you are doing 0% dps approximately. To that you have to add the 50% tracking penalty on a ship that moves quite a bit. Although it wont matter too much because at 7.5 km it'll be webbed. Quite good ammo choice, huh?
Please explain how to do zealot dps at 20 km with any of the above. I'd love to hear. Go ahead.
I can only assume the -1 or -2 low slots is some kind of sick joke.
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Odium47
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:09:00 -
[35]
"I tell ya, the devil's at the wheel of that there phantom ship. You better hold fast."
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Zanarkand
Gallente Enterprise Estonia Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:17:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 19:20:35 Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 19:20:23 Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 19:19:21
Originally by: Vanessa Vale ...
I fly a vagabond, too.
You can argue about words all day long - doesn't change the fact that Vagabond is so many times better than deimos(hacs) in vast majority of pvp situations. Sure Sacrilige might be better vs a ratting raven in belt, but getting without losing your ship, getting out if needed and in gangs general vagabonds are a lot better than other hacs.
Sorry, I compared the dps at 20km with barrage. I just added that the extra ammo is very valuable for soloroaming vagabonds.
Ok, now to the zealot and vagabond dps comparing
220mm2 + barrage + vagabond:
damage mod/rof = 0.587 * all the skills * 5 turrets * 22 damage ammo * damage mods falloff: 22.5 km optimal: 2.7km
HP2 + scorch + zealot
damage mod/rof = 0.686 * all the skills * 4 turrets * 22 damage ammo * damage mods falloff: - optimal: 33.75km
Now, at 20km vagabond would get roughly -40% dps... zealot would do ~50% more dps... sounds like all is fine, but... vagabond has 5 light drones. 5 hobgoblin t2 do a bit less than 100 dps... not to mention the advantages vagabond turrets also have like a lot better damage types, tracking and lack of cap use.
No, -1...-2 slots would sound reasonable to me... that or lose the dronebay. That is a not that drastic as a nerf, I fear that CCP will do something bigger...
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:22:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Zanarkand
an example: engaging myrmidon at belt... you have to go to webrange with deimos, you don't with vagabond. Myrm might have web + scram and have friends, with vaga you can fight him at 15km+. Sure, both have to go to 0km to kill a pve raven, but vs other targets vaga has more survivability/flexibility.
Vagabond is not exactly overpowered vs other ships, but it is too good compared to other hacs.
Actually, a Myrm pilot dying to a normally-fitted T2 Vagabond is not very likely. A Vagabond dying to a Myrm is possible if the pilot isn't being very careful.
A Zealot could kill the Myrm in exactly the same way, so I don't get why you're complaining.
Originally by: Zanarkand
Similar dps at 20km, vaga has better damage types
Vagabond has a mixture of explosive and kinetic, embodied in Barrage M. You could say it's the pilot's choice, but being forced any closer to webrange is also pilot's choice. Choice wether to be a ****** or not.
Originally by: Zanarkand
vaga has noticeably higher dps at web,
Because Vagabonds are flown in webrange
Originally by: Zanarkand
better damage types as well and can actually change between ammo(PP, F, EMP, Hail)
Riiiiight. Vagabond using Hail, I've heard it all.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: MitchPT Considering the vaga is only killable with a rapier or huginn,or maybe a curse i'd say STFU.
I
mm So we should return that vagabond we killed yesterday with 4 snipers at 15 km from him?
Or the one killed 2 weeks ago with a Hurricane and a rifter as wingman
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zanarkand Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:58:31 Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:56:45 Comparing deimos to vagabond in terms of survival.... is stupid.
an example: engaging myrmidon at belt... you have to go to webrange with deimos, you don't with vagabond. Myrm might have web + scram and have friends, with vaga you can fight him at 15km+. Sure, both have to go to 0km to kill a pve raven, but vs other targets vaga has more survivability/flexibility.
Vagabond is not exactly overpowered vs other ships, but it is too good compared to other hacs.
Comparing it to a zealot:
Similar dps at 20km, vaga has better damage types vaga has noticeably higher dps at web, better damage types as well and can actually change between ammo(PP, F, EMP, Hail) tank of vagabond(speed + buffer) is similar to zealot (rep + buffer)
(hidden boost zealot whine)
Vagabond is a bit too strong at the moment. -1 or -2 lowslots would work fine.
One more thing: overheating ceptors(risky for the ceptor pilot) and mwd cruisers can also hurt vagabonds...
A cerberus can also engage the Myrmidon form outside its web range, so can an Ishtar, So can a Zealot. All of them are faster than the Myrmidon... what? Funny how ANY ship with range > 10 km and 10 ms of greater speed can disengage from fights as well as a vagabond can.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Zanarkand
Gallente Enterprise Estonia Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:48:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 19:49:59
Originally by: Cpt Branko Actually, a Myrm pilot dying to a normally-fitted T2 Vagabond is not very likely. A Vagabond dying to a Myrm is possible if the pilot isn't being very careful. A Zealot could kill the Myrm in exactly the same way, so I don't get why you're complaining.
Zealot would have cap problems, less dps due to resists and it will have a looot harder time trying to evade overheating(compared to vagabond) But vs a myrmidon, vagabond is the best hac. Similar in dps compared to other ships who can shoot outside webrange, but many times safer. Sure vagabond isn't the best thing ever, but there is a reason
Quote: webrange + hail
I never said it is a common tactic, but for example engaging a ratting raven, you have to go to load closerange ammo and go close to kill the standard t2 ratting raven, changing ammo to counter region-specific resits/t2 resists is not exactly something that is unused.
Sure, hail is awful... in many situations, but... just because it isn't common, doesn't mean it is useless. For example rook/arazu + vagabond combo vs a single opponent.
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Zanarkand
Gallente Enterprise Estonia Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:49:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 19:51:50 Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 19:51:27
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Zanarkand Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:58:31 Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:56:45 Comparing deimos to vagabond in terms of survival.... is stupid.
an example: engaging myrmidon at belt... you have to go to webrange with deimos, you don't with vagabond. Myrm might have web + scram and have friends, with vaga you can fight him at 15km+. Sure, both have to go to 0km to kill a pve raven, but vs other targets vaga has more survivability/flexibility.
Vagabond is not exactly overpowered vs other ships, but it is too good compared to other hacs.
Comparing it to a zealot:
Similar dps at 20km, vaga has better damage types vaga has noticeably higher dps at web, better damage types as well and can actually change between ammo(PP, F, EMP, Hail) tank of vagabond(speed + buffer) is similar to zealot (rep + buffer)
(hidden boost zealot whine)
Vagabond is a bit too strong at the moment. -1 or -2 lowslots would work fine.
One more thing: overheating ceptors(risky for the ceptor pilot) and mwd cruisers can also hurt vagabonds...
A cerberus can also engage the Myrmidon form outside its web range, so can an Ishtar, So can a Zealot. All of them are faster than the Myrmidon... what? Funny how ANY ship with range > 10 km and 10 ms of greater speed can disengage from fights as well as a vagabond can.
1. overheating
and there is a massive difference between being 500m/s faster and 1500-4000m/s faster
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.21 20:13:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Zanarkand Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 19:51:50 Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 19:51:27
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Zanarkand Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:58:31 Edited by: Zanarkand on 21/11/2007 17:56:45 Comparing deimos to vagabond in terms of survival.... is stupid.
an example: engaging myrmidon at belt... you have to go to webrange with deimos, you don't with vagabond. Myrm might have web + scram and have friends, with vaga you can fight him at 15km+. Sure, both have to go to 0km to kill a pve raven, but vs other targets vaga has more survivability/flexibility.
Vagabond is not exactly overpowered vs other ships, but it is too good compared to other hacs.
Comparing it to a zealot:
Similar dps at 20km, vaga has better damage types vaga has noticeably higher dps at web, better damage types as well and can actually change between ammo(PP, F, EMP, Hail) tank of vagabond(speed + buffer) is similar to zealot (rep + buffer)
(hidden boost zealot whine)
Vagabond is a bit too strong at the moment. -1 or -2 lowslots would work fine.
One more thing: overheating ceptors(risky for the ceptor pilot) and mwd cruisers can also hurt vagabonds...
A cerberus can also engage the Myrmidon form outside its web range, so can an Ishtar, So can a Zealot. All of them are faster than the Myrmidon... what? Funny how ANY ship with range > 10 km and 10 ms of greater speed can disengage from fights as well as a vagabond can.
1. overheating
and there is a massive difference between being 500m/s faster and 1500-4000m/s faster
1. web range is 10km+3km
2.If you nano the other hacs as much as a vagabond you will also be quite faster than other ships. The difference is the vagabond value. Remove that and it becomes worthless. No way a T2 vagabond will be 4 km/s faster than any other t2 HAC. Fit them both with only MWD II and no othwer speed stuff and the speed difference will be quite reasonable. Between Zealot and Vagabond its Exactly 1190ms.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Maeltstome
Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.21 20:34:00 -
[43]
Pro vaga-nerf players have never flown one since the start of rev (EG. tanking buffs.)
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[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Osiris Occido
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2007.11.21 20:39:00 -
[44]
Hi, I'm late to the meeting o/ Which bonus is the vagabond loosing? I assume this is an upcoming change since my vaga still has the dps I expect from it on TQ. Or is it on the test server?
Perfect Quality with Windows Movie Maker |
Derrios
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.11.21 21:21:00 -
[45]
boo hoo vaga pilots, eat a **** ~
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insidion
Caldari Last of the Technocracy
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Posted - 2007.11.21 21:25:00 -
[46]
There is nothing wrong with the vagabond that requires it to be nerfed. Don't be all ****y because you built your ship for mad gankage and a mediocre DPS 'speed tanked' ship came along and took your unprepared butt out. Have the intelligence to balance your own build rather than crying that everything be nerfed into mediocrity. Fit ewar, fit webs, fit neutralizers, try overheating to your advantage, try speed tanking yourself, watch the scanner, keep an eye on local, bring appropriate drones, use a cloak, fly in a gang, realize that there are some fights that you're just not going to win, retreat is always an option, warp to a gate at distance pretending to leave system, etc. You have no end of choices. USE THEM.
As for the zealot comparison, it's the usual inappropriate 'whining about amarr issues'. Yes, amarr have issues. Yes, lasers have issues. Yes, zealot is one of the shafted HAC ships (zealot, eagle, deimos). Yes, the zealot (and other shafted HACs) should be buffed. No, it shouldn't have the bonuses of the other races in addition to it's own. No, it shouldn't be compared to the vaga. The vaga is MADE for speed. The zealot is not. They are completely different beasts. Get over it. With that type of complaining, it would just be best to remove all races and ships, and make one new race that's crappy in all regards, gets no bonuses, and only has one ship per class. That way you can be assured that everyone is exactly the same.
In closing, I'll leave you with one of the most legendary vaga deaths of all time. A ship is only as good as it's pilot.
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:09:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Osiris Occido Hi, I'm late to the meeting o/ Which bonus is the vagabond loosing? I assume this is an upcoming change since my vaga still has the dps I expect from it on TQ. Or is it on the test server?
Its about heat driving it further away into falloff, taking away around 20% dps with it and making the rest of the ammo even less feasible.
Given heat forces it to fight in deeper falloff, and given its bonus is to falloff, heat effectively nerfed one of its bonus when the ship was perfectly ok.
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:20:00 -
[48]
For those saying that the Vaga is overpowered because it can go fast, doing damage, etc.
Grab a Deimos and try...
High: Dual 150mm Railgun II (Caldari Navy Antimatter), Med Dim NOS Meds: 10MN MWD II, Warp Disruptor II, Large Cap Battery II Lows: MAR II, DCU II, 3x OD II, MagStab II Rigs: 2x Polycarb I Drones: 5x Hammerhead II
With the MWD off I can run the Guns, Scram and MAR 24/7 and hitting @ 14km optimal and it goes 3.8km without Imps. So the Deimos seems overpowered aswell now, does'nt it?
Even a Zealot can be fitted for speed this way, not saying I would, but it's quiet possible to fit alot of HACs in that fashion.
Sure, the Vagabond is the fastest, but it's damage is not the biggest compared to other NanoHACs, so I see no problem with it. .
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Tidas Andrommeda
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:38:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 22/11/2007 01:38:29
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Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:47:00 -
[50]
After reading all of the nerf vaga posts I am absolutely convinced that those who want it nerfed have never flown one.
I will just repeat myself from other threads. Annoying is not the same as overpowered.
Just brush it away from your face like a pesky fly. Don't whine because your not packing a flyswatter.
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arbalesttom
Caldari Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:55:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Kal Shakai After reading all of the nerf vaga posts I am absolutely convinced that those who want it nerfed have never flown one.
I will just repeat myself from other threads. Annoying is not the same as overpowered.
Just brush it away from your face like a pesky fly. Don't whine because your not packing a flyswatter.
Might be true, but the fact everyone and there mother is flying vaga (check killboards...) proves SOMETHING.. * ** *** ♣♣♣Phear my sig!♣♣♣ Nice hamster! - Mindstar Sorry, that hamster ate your sig - Cortes |
Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.22 03:05:00 -
[52]
Originally by: arbalesttom
Might be true, but the fact everyone and there mother is flying vaga (check killboards...) proves SOMETHING..
That they don't want to die maybe? Actually, I see fewer of them around lately for some reason (maybe just my perception). I named mine FOTM and people tell me that it's not anymore.
Just because they choose survivability over other features doesn't make a ship overpowered.
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Deathnail
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Posted - 2007.11.22 04:45:00 -
[53]
SAC is the new FOTM ship.
Not because it is OP, but because CCP wtfpwned the Pilgrim and buffed the SAC, all those people who trained Amarr Cruiser V need something to fly - and the SAC is it.
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Semkhet
KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.11.22 06:16:00 -
[54]
The Vaga is a ship like any other: has some good & bad things. Those who brag against Vagas mostly either are philosophically against nanowarfare, or simply don't understand how that ship works.
Funny enough, it's the most innocuous type among all nanoships which gets the biggest amount of threads. Compare it to what an Ishtar, Curse or Sacrilege can do and come back...
And there's a guy somewhere in this thread that has stated that a Crow is stupid if he attacks a vaga. Completely wrong if the Crow is as pimped as the vaga and the engagement does not take place near a station or gate. The vaga will have to stay there scrambled all day long, which usually means that the crow's merry m8's will show up and finish the job.
But anyhow, there's no blind like the one who doesn't want to see.
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Semkhet
KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.11.22 06:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: arbalesttom
Originally by: Kal Shakai After reading all of the nerf vaga posts I am absolutely convinced that those who want it nerfed have never flown one.
I will just repeat myself from other threads. Annoying is not the same as overpowered.
Just brush it away from your face like a pesky fly. Don't whine because your not packing a flyswatter.
Might be true, but the fact everyone and there mother is flying vaga (check killboards...) proves SOMETHING..
It simply proves that's its grossly overrated. It's like poo, you can always believe that a million flies can't be wrong
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burek
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2007.11.22 07:44:00 -
[56]
Flew a vagabond for a few months, and thought meh, it's nice but hardly all that.
They work wonders against dud ships and dud pilots (majority of whiners?), but there a many ways to kill one. But of course, why bother when you can just whine on the forums . The devs will listen eventually. If a vagabond gets a direct nerf, that will become the pinnacle of stupidity. |
Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.22 10:44:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Semkhet
It's like poo, you can always believe that a million flies can't be wrong
You sir, have obviously leveled Forum One-Liners higher than myself. I tip my hat.
I truly believe the vaga's power comes from it reputation. It's a fear weapon for those who haven't trained (and therefore flown) these types of setups. They just pay the ransom before even attempting to fight back.
Your example about Ishtar's, Curse's and Sac's was spot on.
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Odium47
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Posted - 2007.11.22 19:44:00 -
[58]
If James Dean would have played Eve, he would have loved the Vagabond...its similar to his "Little Bastard" ...light, fast, manoeuvrable...
It is not the Vaga that you should be afraid of ! It is his pilot that is dangerous !
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.22 20:02:00 -
[59]
Despite being the ship you immediately think of when you hear the word 'nano', I feel the vagabond is well realised.
The real problem comes from the ships that don't have any tracking issues to deal with at high speeds. The Ishtar, Curse & Sacrilege being the main abusers currently. I'm so used to dealing with them these days though, doesn't bother me as much as it used too. |
Shardrael
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.11.22 20:52:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Shardrael on 22/11/2007 20:52:27 you know its funny, the things a vaga does that people complain about, a sacriledge actually does better, arguably an ishtar does as well and nano cerbs seem to be popular as well, yet no one complains about the sac or cerb and there is much less complaint on the ishtar, why? well for one thing umpteen million people trained for the vaga with how good they were doing during the warp core stabs hayday, aditionally most of the complaints have more to do with the vagas history and it being called up by some more recent experience.
the vaga is a potent ship that takes skill and money to fly well. In my oppinion eve needs more ships like this, not less
and if anyone says the vaga takes no skill to fly, just orbit and hit f1 through f6 then you are an idiot and you need to be slapped. To this day its the most fun ship I have flown aside from carriers and that stems in great part from the difficulty in flying them well. It's one of the few ships left that still offers a challenge to fly.
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