There is a random variance in total mass of a wh. Of the times I've kept track, I've seen as much as 18% variance of mass either more or less. Just recently had one collapse without ever going critical. I was not keeping track of the times we jumped but I would put it's variance at 25%, perhaps. I've collapsed a lot of holes and never seen one with that much variance.

If anything CCP made the variance more frequent and larger.

It's another stealth nerf for w-space on CCP's march to make null the only viable space. Perhaps I should stop fighting it, go join null and get my very own army of bots to feed CCP's RMT. I mean, that's what it looks like they want.

On second thought, Fk it! If it comes to it I'll just leave Eve rather than deal with the mess in null. I love w-space. Most w-space inhabitants do.

I knew a guy who allegedly petitioned this and the response was a wormhole mass deviation of 20 %.

" While some players may have figured out how they usually behave, results sometimes may vary. This is by design. What you experienced is not abnormal for a wormhole. "

There is a random variance in total mass of a wh. Of the times I've kept track, I've seen as much as 18% variance of mass either more or less. Just recently had one collapse without ever going critical. I was not keeping track of the times we jumped but I would put it's variance at 25%, perhaps. I've collapsed a lot of holes and never seen one with that much variance.

If anything CCP made the variance more frequent and larger.

It's another stealth nerf for w-space on CCP's march to make null the only viable space. Perhaps I should stop fighting it, go join null and get my very own army of bots to feed CCP's RMT. I mean, that's what it looks like they want.

On second thought, Fk it! If it comes to it I'll just leave Eve rather than deal with the mess in null. I love w-space. Most w-space inhabitants do.

I just checked the changelog on all the wormholes. Mass limits on two of them were adjusted in Apocrypha 1.0.2 (ie, early 2009), the rest haven't been touched since Apocrypha 1.0.

I don't think it's a mass issue. WH times seem to be very short, sometimes despawning 8 hrs after they spawn.

I just checked the changelog on all the wormholes. Mass limits on two of them were adjusted in Apocrypha 1.0.2 (ie, early 2009), the rest haven't been touched since Apocrypha 1.0.

I just checked the changelog on all the wormholes. Mass limits on two of them were adjusted in Apocrypha 1.0.2 (ie, early 2009), the rest haven't been touched since Apocrypha 1.0.

We filed a petition for a bug report that i can almost guarantee introduced this new 'feature'. Unfortunately it was regarding a possible exploit so I don't want to discuss it openly on the forums...

What member of the dev/QA team deals with wormholes, so I know who to address a petition / bug report to?

Just to clarify, those mass cap changes in 1.0.2 were the *only* changes we've made to the stats of the wormholes themselves since Apocrypha.



I'll bump this across to the relevant person, I believe I know the defect you're talking about.

The plot thickens!

something has changed.........the worm hole takes like 5 -10 sec after u jump thru the wh to post the u are trapped message. where as before the patch it was imediate.

Dependencies.

We have also experienced the issue.

C5-C5, 3b mass.

We were attempting to mass our static and it closed with a Single moros [round] trip.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Orca
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Moros

Orca: Roughly 500,000,00 total trip +100m if AB'ing
Moros: Roughly : 2,585,000,000 total trip


First attempt, moros and orca, normally doesn't collapse. Usually you need a BS to top it off and make sure it closes rather than massing.

Orca does his trip, Moros does his. We expect it to be massed. "Have you become trapped?" Ok, no big deal; I'll buy it.

Second attempt, We will just do Moros and a BS. (Scorpion, 100MN MWD ~270m mass round trip). "Have you become trapped?" .. Odd, but again I'll buy it, thats less than 5% variable.

Third attempt. Collapses with just a moros. Roughly 14% variance on the mass wh.

Final attempt was just a moros and left it in critical.

Something has definitely changed, be it on purpose or another CCP failure is up in the air.

I was looking into this further this morning, and found a thing which may explain at least some of the unexpected outcomes people have been experiencing.

The exploit we patched in Crucible 1.1 means that information about the latest wormhole state is being propagated a little slower than it used to be. I talked to CCP Atlas just now and he says that the showinfo information was never intended to be robustly real-time, so it's possible that the slower information propagation is causing slightly longer delays in updating the showinfo information. My understanding is that this would be on the order of seconds or at the most minutes (ie, not hours or days), but there may be a change in behavior here.

If people continue to see effects which can't be explained by this phenomena, and especially if you can catch one as it's happening, please continue to bug report it!

I was looking into this further this morning, and found a thing which may explain at least some of the unexpected outcomes people have been experiencing.

The exploit we patched in Crucible 1.1 means that information about the latest wormhole state is being propagated a little slower than it used to be. I talked to CCP Atlas just now and he says that the showinfo information was never intended to be robustly real-time, so it's possible that the slower information propagation is causing slightly longer delays in updating the showinfo information. My understanding is that this would be on the order of seconds or at the most minutes (ie, not hours or days), but there may be a change in behavior here.

If people continue to see effects which can't be explained by this phenomena, and especially if you can catch one as it's happening, please continue to bug report it!

I was looking into this further this morning, and found a thing which may explain at least some of the unexpected outcomes people have been experiencing.

The exploit we patched in Crucible 1.1 means that information about the latest wormhole state is being propagated a little slower than it used to be. I talked to CCP Atlas just now and he says that the showinfo information was never intended to be robustly real-time, so it's possible that the slower information propagation is causing slightly longer delays in updating the showinfo information. My understanding is that this would be on the order of seconds or at the most minutes (ie, not hours or days), but there may be a change in behavior here.

If people continue to see effects which can't be explained by this phenomena, and especially if you can catch one as it's happening, please continue to bug report it!

So this seems to explain why we don't see the wormhole shrink animations when jumping like we used to. Was this intended? If so, it would have been great to see some documentation about it... If it was not intended, is there a chance we could get a fix? It really is crappy to have to wait for the wormhole to "update" after a jump, when this wasn't the case before.

From what I can tell from the experiments I've done on the wormholes since the patch (and as well as the tests I did that lead to finding the exploit) it feels like you've introduced a check style system that confirms that ships have passed through the wormhole before deducting the mass from the wormhole. Thus ships have to register loading in the system before the mass is deducted (explaining the 10 second delay).

The main issue with this is a situation that we encountered yesterday. We had a dread jump in AFTER our main subcap fleet, but apparently it registered with the sever as loading in the other system before the subcaps causing 3/4s of our subcaps to be spat back out into our home system.

Also along side this we have been noticing an unusual amount of +- variance wormholes with very few standard no variance wormholes.

I was looking into this further this morning, and found a thing which may explain at least some of the unexpected outcomes people have been experiencing.

The exploit we patched in Crucible 1.1 means that information about the latest wormhole state is being propagated a little slower than it used to be. I talked to CCP Atlas just now and he says that the showinfo information was never intended to be robustly real-time, so it's possible that the slower information propagation is causing slightly longer delays in updating the showinfo information. My understanding is that this would be on the order of seconds or at the most minutes (ie, not hours or days), but there may be a change in behavior here.

If people continue to see effects which can't be explained by this phenomena, and especially if you can catch one as it's happening, please continue to bug report it!

More or less, yes.

In cases like this where you're making use of the "Last ship always gets to jump" mechanic to squeeze through *significantly* more mass than is technically available, I would recommend moving to a system where you confirm the rest of the fleet has jumped before moving the dreadnaught.

I have experienced the '... have you become trapped' message taking longer, not noticed any of the mass varience problems though.

Sig id's are obviously broken, if they all spawn at the same time (ie after server restart) they all end in the same letter, eg

DEA
FEA
ECA
GCA
LPA
OPA

so when a new sig spawns (usually a wh) its so easy to spot, this makes it very easy to scan wh chains in a hurry but its not working as intended obviously.

Issues like this generally indicate that a PRNG is not being seeded properly.

...but K162s (which are the 'tails' of wh 'heads' created in other systems) would ahve identifers visibly different. Certainly that is how it is playing out in our wh atm. I consider it a blessing, as It clearly shows incoming k162s

Issues like this generally indicate that a PRNG is not being seeded properly.

I'm happy they fixed the bug/exploit, not so happy with how it's working with the delay in notification. To be honest I think the current change would be OK if the session timer wasn't so short.

My thoughts on this, are to leave the change in for preventing the exploit and bump the session timers in wh transits up to 20 or 25 secs to lessen the delay impacts. I suggest this with mixed feelings as I love the 15 sec session timers.

Ok, so..

I'm going to imagine I didn't just read that CCP has implemented a client side mechanic to this.

Ok, so I'm not a wormhole-dweller and I don't fully understand how this interacts with session change timers in gameplay terms. I'm assuming it's to do with jumping back and forth to collapse quickly, but I don't grasp the specific use case that's concerning you.

do away with crit messages and only keep the half mass message! Also more and way larger variation in wormhole size would make this a little more unexpected like 50% mass variations but the half mass messages should be kept real time.

Ok, so I'm not a wormhole-dweller and I don't fully understand how this interacts with session change timers in gameplay terms. I'm assuming it's to do with jumping back and forth to collapse quickly, but I don't grasp the specific use case that's concerning you.

Ok, so I'm not a wormhole-dweller and I don't fully understand how this interacts with session change timers in gameplay terms. I'm assuming it's to do with jumping back and forth to collapse quickly, but I don't grasp the specific use case that's concerning you.

I don't know where you're reading that, but it's not true so I wouldn't worry about it

OK, so, we need to have a little chat about this. First of all, I've heard rumor of at least one dev living in a WH corp. I strongly recommend consulting with them directly, because they can tell you more in person than we ever could over the fourms.

So, let's talk about the last time AHARM and ADHC had a really big fight (that I was present for). This was before the change and the delay. In that fight, we were fighting on a WH connecting to our system. Both sides were jumping a lot of ships back and forth rapidly to avoid the overwhelming DPS of the opposition. Finally, AHARM dumped a dread on the hole, half of our fleet jumped back, they jumped in the dread, and the hole immediately collapsed. We only knew to jump back BEFORE the dread landed because while it was in warp, one of the other ships had triggered a stage change, which we immediately noticed. As soon as we saw the dread on grid, we knew that we had to get our fleet back because that hole was going to crash when that gigantic mass went through it.

That kind of on-the-fly mass trickery is really hard to work out when we have a ten-second delay on the mass change. Which ship triggered it? Was it the 10k sleipnir, or the 150k battleship? Yes, we do calculate remaining mass on the fly. We have to. Under normal, peaceful crashing situations it might not have a huge impact, but when it matters, it's going to matter a lot. Immediate feedback is very, very helpful, at the very least more immediate than the ten-second delay we have now.

Did you not specifically say that the server now requires a client side verification that the grid is loaded before it records the hole mass change? Or am I just really confused?

EDIT: Also, as Jonny above says, knowing what mass the hole is at, at all times, without delays, is sort of necessary in w-space. We're talking life and death necessary here.

I've started recording collapsing efforts but TBH, we're not really doing a lot of that these days partly due to people busy with RL stuff. If I catch a weird mechanic in action I'll post the video.



I'm sorry your alliance is going to hell in a hand basket. The rest of us don't want to be the company to your misery. Getting rid of the critical state and more variance? When people start getting stranded or having to probe their way back through multiple wh's & travel through null/losec to get home again on a regular basis that will basically be the end of w-space as viable habitation, right? Because, people don't like spending +3 hours doing something like boating home through dangerous space that does absolutely nothing for their game other than wasting their time and getting them killed repeatedly.

As it has been in the past it wasn't so bad. The occasional stranding can be tolerated. As a matter of regular occurrence, seriously, you're going to see a lot of people leave w-space. I already spend far too much time in this game. Having to direct a larger portion of it to fruitless and pointless activities (Non-PVP/PVE) will basically be w-space's death.

(And yes there are people here I could ask, but it's more fun talking to you guys )

What does this do to wormhole space? Well it slows things down. It gives a potential target more time to find the hole you came from, more time to pos up. More time to hide their valuables, and just adds another hurdle to getting PvP in a wormhole.

Maybe not clearly to the point, but closely conected:

With session-change timer reduction, maybe it is the time to implement the "polarity timer" of 30 seconds to the second jump (that is jump back). Previously it was like: jump-30 seconds session change- jump back - 1.5 min polaity timer.

With session change timers further reduced we can come to the situation, when in the fight like that depicted earlier a capital can jump to and from BEFORE people are able to react and return home before being closed.

Finally! WH-Space has gone erratic. No really, I am not sure if this is bad or good, since it makes hole-life a bit more interesting. I'd really appreciate some randomness for holes. Maybe a module which can give you more precise data on the status of a wh?

While I agree with you Seleia erratic can be a good thing. I must disagree with the module suggestion fits for w/h vessels are already tight enough as it is with most people adding a core launcher.

** I would suggest, other posters can feel free to disagree, that nearly any toon in this thread would welcome a random CCP visit in their WH, a short convo to get a hole closed, then kill the next static from scratch... then the GM or dev can SEE what is happening 1st hand... **

we won't mind if it means getting this nailed down and explained

The exploit we patched in Crucible 1.1 means that information about the latest wormhole state is being propagated a little slower than it used to be. I talked to CCP Atlas just now and he says that the showinfo information was never intended to be robustly real-time, so it's possible that the slower information propagation is causing slightly longer delays in updating the showinfo information. My understanding is that this would be on the order of seconds or at the most minutes (ie, not hours or days), but there may be a change in behavior here.

For those insisting that the variance has changed, doesn't this paragraph explain that the wormhole mass status you are seeing may not be up-to-date? If the show info is showing old info, then you might be tricked into thinking it's still safe to jump when in fact the server has shrunk the wormhole to critical.

[quote=CCP Greyscale]
So I would suggest that the mass limits and the variances haven't changed. What has perhaps changed is that when wormholes shrink, clients won't find out until a bit later. The way to test this is to take a few minutes break between ship jumps during a collapse operation and see if the show info eventually updates with accurate info. For CCP Greyscale, is the visual feedback that the wormhole has shrunk also delayed, like the show info is?

Hey everyone,

Just to keep you all up to date, I've asked the new Live Team to read through this thread and have a look at the various issues being raised, as they're better placed to do thorough testing of this sort of live code :)

Thanks for bringing these glitches to our attention!
-Greyscale

For those insisting that the variance has changed, doesn't this paragraph explain that the wormhole mass status you are seeing may not be up-to-date? If the show info is showing old info, then you might be tricked into thinking it's still safe to jump when in fact the server has shrunk the wormhole to critical.

So I would suggest that the mass limits and the variances haven't changed. What has perhaps changed is that when wormholes shrink, clients won't find out until a bit later. The way to test this is to take a few minutes break between ship jumps during a collapse operation and see if the show info eventually updates with accurate info. For CCP Greyscale, is the visual feedback that the wormhole has shrunk also delayed, like the show info is?

So, This topic is interesting.

My WH alliance was invaded by another alliance known to be somewhat neutral or even "friendly" with AHARM a couple days ago. They put our POS's re-inforced mode, with the first coming out earlier today (well, 17:00-ish eve time on 2/17/2012).

We countered with an attack of multiple cap ships (outnumbered them) and succeeded in destroying all their caps and some support ships, then our fleet decided to close the exit WH on them and trap them in while we wipe them out.

This c6 (we were in a c6, c6 static) was already at half mass when we jumped a carrier through it and then to bring him back through would close it. When he jumped, AHARM had a massive fleet sitting there. Around 40 pilots we figure, with 2 dreds at least and some say also a carrier. When our carrier jumped back, the WH should have closed behind him, and it did, only the entirety of the AHARM fleet, 2 dreds, possibly their own carrier, and all, were in our hole.

Being vastly outnumbered we fell to the attack.


So the question is (and yes its been submitted by some of our members via petition), is this an exploit? This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.

So, This topic is interesting.

My WH alliance was invaded by another alliance known to be somewhat neutral or even "friendly" with AHARM a couple days ago. They put our POS's re-inforced mode, with the first coming out earlier today (well, 17:00-ish eve time on 2/17/2012).

We countered with an attack of multiple cap ships (outnumbered them) and succeeded in destroying all their caps and some support ships, then our fleet decided to close the exit WH on them and trap them in while we wipe them out.

This c6 (we were in a c6, c6 static) was already at half mass when we jumped a carrier through it and then to bring him back through would close it. When he jumped, AHARM had a massive fleet sitting there. Around 40 pilots we figure, with 2 dreds at least and some say also a carrier. When our carrier jumped back, the WH should have closed behind him, and it did, only the entirety of the AHARM fleet, 2 dreds, possibly their own carrier, and all, were in our hole.

Being vastly outnumbered we fell to the attack.


So the question is (and yes its been submitted by some of our members via petition), is this an exploit? This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.

So the question is (and yes its been submitted by some of our members via petition), is this an exploit? This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.

What might work is: Introduce a new probe type, which can be fitted into the core launcher, which will scan all w-hole within 2AU and give you detailed information after a few seconds.

No need for a new module, and most w-space fleets have multiple people with core probe launchers fitted.

I was there,

Wormhole mass wasn't below 50%, 20 ish cruisers rather then 30+ jumped.

That something odd happened with the wormhole is undeniable, but to cry wolf about an exploit being used is far fetched.

Most wormhole people already know that the wormhole behaviour has significantly changed since crusible 1.1, but this was done to fix an exploit with wormholes (reported by AHARM nonetheless.)

I agree that the current mechanics are flawed and that it needs looking into. As for the four cap jumps through one wormhole, we were as surprised as you were when that happened.

In this occasion it resulted in an extra carrier on the field for you guys, instead of it getting trapped on the wrong side(Our intention) so it should have actually been an advantage for you.

An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever. When this occurs, we implore you to contact your friendly neighbourhood GM as soon as possible so that they can investigate the incident, prevent it from happening to anyone else, and possibly reimburse you for your loss:

We were just asking if it is a known exploit.


If it is a known issue that CCP considers an exploit. You guys used it, whether knowingly or not , and it resulted in us loosing our home and a few billions in ships. A loss that only happened due to a broken game mechanic that should not have happened.

We pay to play like you guys do, we pay to have battles such as that one. But we don't pay to have our stuff lost in a battle that was won due to a "bug" in the game allowing you guys to get an advantage that should not have ever been there.

The instant our carrier returned that WH should have disappeared. You maybe possibly could have gotten a couple of the cruiser class ships in, but no way your entire fleet with the dreds should have came in.


Here is a quote from the wiki:




Well, it looks to use normal game mechanics were bypassed somehow, by accident or not is not up to us to determine. But we had no means to prevent it, as we didn't know it could happen. We know it should NOT have happened. So we contacted the "neighborhood" GM.

We have no ill will towards NorCorp, eXceed and their No HOles Barred Alliance, nor any towards AHARM and their K162 alliance. I have enjoyed bantering back and forth into local with them. And I hope we have more run ins in the future, it was fun. We are aggrivated that we lost pretty much everything over a broken mechanic.

This may sound harsh, but I think the reason you lost your fleet was because you were sat on an unscouted hole. If you'd put a scout through, you'd have seen us formed up and we'd have lost the element of suprise.

Now, something definitely went weird with the hole mass limit, but that only allowed your Archon to die in its home system rather than in Nova. We jumped in as soon as our scout reported that you'd jumped an Archon into Nova. We were as suprised as you when your Archon made it back! So, I don't think any broken game mechanic or "exploit" made any real bearing on the outcome.

I'm sure you'll come back stronger for the experience, looking forward to the next time.

Why were you surprised when our Archon made it back. He jumped back before your fleet did.

As far as corbexx's calculations, did you calculate the mass of the modules on the ships? Did you calculate the mass of the ships that had jumped through that hole a few times already.

The hole shrank once when our archon jumped into that system.

Even in the event the calculations were correct, he admitted at least the mass of one of the cap ships should not have made it.


So basically, this whole situation, even if not an exploit that you guys used to your advantage, should not have happened is a situation that CCP should look at cause the WH may not have behaved properly.

On a similar note, I have a cloaky toon still in said C6, who just got several screenshots of NorCorp pulling out. I got the window open showing the hole "had its stability reduced, but not to a critical degree", meaning it is less than 45%. They warp a fenrir, 2 thanatos, and a naglefar to it. The Fenrir jumps. Then a revelation shows up. They all jump practically simultaneously, one of the thanys is a bit behind the rest in activating.

Now only the Nag jumps successfully and the hole closes. The WH mechanics worked properly by my figuring. No issue here.

The question is, why were they trying to jump all of them at the same time when they should have known that all the ships would not make it? Unless they also knew there was a chance they all made it, and therefore using an exploit? If all of them had of made it (as was the case with the AHARM fleet coming in), I would have proof of a possible mechanic exploit (and if CCP checks the logs, they will see it from the fleet fight).

This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.

The hole shrank once when our archon jumped into that system.

LOL Butthurt much?

Also, we fraps the jumping ourselves in order to try and replicate the bug you discovered with your carrier and AHARMs dreads so that it could be petitioned and proven to CCP that there is a problem with wormhole masses. As for you claiming you lost your home as a result is just you trying to cry in CCP's direction, AHARM would still have gotten most of there fleet into your wormhole, maybe one dread shorter and you STILL would have lost your hole.

If the hole had not have bugged it would have just resulted in AHARM having more arduous work of cycling back round to your hole and throwing more forces through. You putting your whole system loss down to one wormhole bug is laughable at best.

EDIT: You said yourself that the naglfar alone jumped through and no others, therefore it is not a replicatable bug and we did not exploit. AHARMs own publicity on this topic is also proof that they are not knowingly exploiting a wormhole bug, there fleet they brought to there own wormhole was a perfectly viable fitting fleet considering the wormholes size. The only variable with there mass was your own carrier.

Must say it would have been an epic fight if u decided not to give up right away when u did see aharm... - plz admit it would have been awesome if u had warped all in! (u had half your fleeet at the hole, warp in rest and make fight :)


We did pos up in your system for fights not to kick you out of system, but when u didnt fight until the very end and then start SD /firesale after that last figth u didnt leave much choice.

I said in my post that the Nag was the only one to jump and the WH mechanics worked properly so no issue there.

I just also raised questions as to why you guys would try to jump that many ships through a WH they obviously should not have been able to jump through. If, as you say, you were trying to replicate the issue that 4 or 5 of us feel was an exploit AHARM used to give you guys an edge, so you can report it, then good for you guys for that.

But going by some convo's in local with some of your pilots, they said some things that raised questions. We weren't gona petition a thing despite wondering exactly how that happened. Some of them made it sound planned and like it was known it could be done. And given AHARM's history of using exploits to its advantage, some of us thought to send a petition. Don't hold a grudge on our entire alliance over the 4 or 5 that think you guys used an exploit.

Having said that, pretty much everyone is in good spirits and trying to rush to recoup some lost ships, and get back into a WH and start rebuilding to have another go round. Alliance leadership will discuss the next move in the next few days. I personally hope we do, and that us and you guys have another go round. Just give us some time to recoup first.

Why were you surprised when our Archon made it back. He jumped back before your fleet did.

As far as corbexx's calculations, did you calculate the mass of the modules on the ships? Did you calculate the mass of the ships that had jumped through that hole a few times already.

The hole shrank once when our archon jumped into that system.

Even in the event the calculations were correct, he admitted at least the mass of one of the cap ships should not have made it.


So basically, this whole situation, even if not an exploit that you guys used to your advantage, should not have happened is a situation that CCP should look at cause the WH may not have behaved properly.

On a similar note, I have a cloaky toon still in said C6, who just got several screenshots of NorCorp pulling out. I got the window open showing the hole "had its stability reduced, but not to a critical degree", meaning it is less than 45%. They warp a fenrir, 2 thanatos, and a naglefar to it. The Fenrir jumps. Then a revelation shows up. They all jump practically simultaneously, one of the thanys is a bit behind the rest in activating.

Now only the Nag jumps successfully and the hole closes. The WH mechanics worked properly by my figuring. No issue here.

The question is, why were they trying to jump all of them at the same time when they should have known that all the ships would not make it? Unless they also knew there was a chance they all made it, and therefore using an exploit? If all of them had of made it (as was the case with the AHARM fleet coming in), I would have proof of a possible mechanic exploit (and if CCP checks the logs, they will see it from the fleet fight).

Hey

To clarify a few things

The hole was not 50% reduced as stated. At the point when your Archon jumped in it was 100% unused, we had kept 100% control on that hole up from when we opened it until that time and NOTHING had went through.

You saw a reduction as carrier jumped in because AHARM cross jumped with your carrier into you. As to how your carrier did get back is a mystery in itself, but oh well it gave you an extra carrier on field.

As to when we moved the stuffs out yesterday, we were bug and mechanics testing. We have read here that the variation on wh mass has increased so decided to test it and also to replicate your bug we jumped simultaneously.

Happy to report mechanics worked as intended initially it looked as though all the capitals jumped but then all but one dread got the error message about traffic control and then booted back to your system. Strange that you saw the thana as jumping later it did in fact jump at the exact same second.

As to the weird variations in mass we have had a single obelisk get closed out on a 5 second old W237 hole by jumping through once. This has happened several times now.

And as to everything else above.

I posted a BR of the battle report here post nr 738.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?144-Wormhole-Space-(64-posts-deleted-and-counting)&p=375819&viewfull=1#post375819

It was good fun and we wish you the best of luck forward hope, we havent turned you off WH it was not the intention

Regards Sandslinger

Also, we fraps the jumping ourselves in order to try and replicate the bug you discovered with your carrier and AHARMs dreads so that it could be petitioned and proven to CCP that there is a problem with wormhole masses.

That is all well and good, but that is *not* what your alliance mates are posting here, on FHC, on blogs and on evenews24. We are being accused of deliberately using some sort of mysterious "exploit" to move more mass through that hole. Without any direct evidence, that is not a reasonable thing to do. You are diminishing the great fight you had with NorCorp before we showed up, and are acting like children.

I also find it disingenuous to claim that "every wormholer" is jumping to wild conclusions. The only ones doing so are your alliance mates, I think you guys need to have a little chat.

As stated, my opinion is my own - I'm only stating what I saw, and trying to put some context around why people may be jumping to irrational and illogical conclusions. It is true that I am probably miles out of step with the consensus of the leadership group here but it is my opinion that there was a bug, there was an extra cap, it wasn't intentionally exploited.

My point was merely trying to place some context around how some people could go from a rather strange happening on a wormhole which nobody can understand completely, to a possibly exploitable bug which would allow deliberate pushing of ships exceeding mass limits over the threshold, to "AHARM cheated". Clarion Call 3 got a great deal of airplay, and I assume especially amongst wormholers which brought the supergun back into stark focus. I was not suggesting for a moment that "all wormholers think aharm exploit", or that "all wormholers are jumping to conclusions" and I sincerely apologize if that is how it came across. I was trying to state how such wild conclusion jumps could have been made.

I'll go on record as saying I have no beef with how the w/e went down. everything was, in my opinion, completely above board.

Props to Greig for approaching this whole thing in the right way. Clearly there was some sort of bug, as way too much mass went through that hole. The right thing to do is to report it to CCP (which has been done) and hope they can sort out the bug that has been messing up wormholes for *everyone*.

The problem not the change, but is people have got used to 'gaming the system', chain collapsing wormholes until they get the outcome they want and expected this to continue, despite the fact it blatantly flouts the back-story of wormholes.

This change is a good thing, it better dovetails with the back-story and it promotes better games play with the fog of war.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. Without a certain amount of predictability w-space ceases to be viable for any fleet operations since noone is going to risk losing tens of billions of isk when half their fleet arrives at destination with no way to retreat because the WH collapsed due to premature randomness. Variances are huge and more frequent now.

And BTW, we've always had to deal with variance. Now, it's ridiculous. Not only are we getting delayed updates but holes are collapsing a lot sooner/later than they have in the past. Crappy state updates + ridiculous variance + frequency = b0rked!

Very funny. Just found a k162 from C5 to C6. Mass was shown as OK. Jumped in in a tengu - and the hole closed.
Wrote a petition to be moved back with a link to this topic. Waiting for reply.

So you went somewhere with a time limit and where someone else could lock you in, and based on your complaint I'm guessing you didn't have probes (probably no salvager either) and your scan alt didn't go in first? Sounds like a risk you were willing to take, whether people or the nature of the beast at hand got you.

Correct me if I'm wrong CCP but the rewards are high because the risk is high and any expectation of farming without risk is beyond the point.

Not only that. What they did with PI, sleepers loot and their effectiveness as adversaries. In addition to changes in ways you get links to anywhere in Empire space. In last two weeks we always hit either dead ends of C5 C6 C5 C6 very deep Null or getting very much active w-systems links. There was silent changes to how this works too probably.

All these changes affect not only large corps and fleet fights but also negate any usefulness of w-systems for smaller corps. It takes too much time to farm sites and find useful links to Empire space now. People lose interest in such gameplay where they waste a ton of their time for nothing. They don't go to Null sec. They unsubscribe.

No, it sounds like he jumped into a C6->C5 WH with a Tengu that was neither mass nor time critical. And the WH immediately collapsed. That would be a bug.

-Liang