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[RHCRP] Bond Update [Nov 24]

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FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:37:00 - [1] Amusing really. Even after I pointed out the maths of how his numbers of shares sold didn't add up (which he never replied to) people kept sending him more ISK. I never called it as a scam - as I wasn't sure that it was one. His change in comments about the 7k unreleased shares (they went from "will be released very slowly" to "they probably won't be released till after next dividend") suggested that maybe he was just selling the lot now - which, while unethical, wouldn't be a scam. People just saw the 15% per month and lost all their common-sense. Noone cared that there were no accounts for the single dividend paid, no real business plan and no proper definition of how surplus profits over 15% were divided. Hopefully some useful lessons will be drawn from this - but I somehow doubt it.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:38:00 - [2] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Shadarle 40b in 2 months is not so impressive, I made more and that counts two investments turning into scams. I don't understand why anyone scams for such tiny amounts of money when they could do so much better. 40bill is still a considerable amount. Eh... not so much these days. If he had run this 3 more months he coulda gotten up to 80-100 bil. Yeah - he definitely pulled the plug earlier than he needed to. A few months paying 15-20% and he could have scooped another 50 bill easy.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:44:00 - [3] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: FastLearner Amusing really. Even after I pointed out the maths of how his numbers of shares sold didn't add up (which he never replied to) people kept sending him more ISK. I never called it as a scam - as I wasn't sure that it was one. His change in comments about the 7k unreleased shares (they went from "will be released very slowly" to "they probably won't be released till after next dividend") suggested that maybe he was just selling the lot now - which, while unethical, wouldn't be a scam. People just saw the 15% per month and lost all their common-sense. Noone cared that there were no accounts for the single dividend paid, no real business plan and no proper definition of how surplus profits over 15% were divided. Hopefully some useful lessons will be drawn from this - but I somehow doubt it. How ironic. Isnt this kinda the same effect with Wylker? He promised 15%+ didivdends. And everybody went nuts. Yep. We had a chat about Riethe's IPO in RESX channel last week. I said, amongst other things, that I'd have been far more tempted to invest had be been offering 10% than 15%. There was no reason for a GENUINE IPO to offer 15% - it could get it's funds at 10%. Offering 15% showed a degree of desperation to get ISK which concerned me. Add to that the obviously flaky maths on number of shares sold and no way I was touching it without some very clear answers. Riethe's IPO also broke another rule I have about investments - I won't generally touch a decent sized IPO unless whoever's running it has already acquired substantial, solid, assets of their own.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:39:00 - [4] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: FastLearner Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Shadarle 40b in 2 months is not so impressive, I made more and that counts two investments turning into scams. I don't understand why anyone scams for such tiny amounts of money when they could do so much better. 40bill is still a considerable amount. Eh... not so much these days. If he had run this 3 more months he coulda gotten up to 80-100 bil. Yeah - he definitely pulled the plug earlier than he needed to. A few months paying 15-20% and he could have scooped another 50 bill easy. Exactly. He obviously didn't want to put forth the effort to really pull off a big scam. If he had started posting regularly and been paying out over his 15% min each month he'd have gotten a lot more people roped in. Now though I think we will all be suspicious of anyone paying out very high amounts and wanting to expand before they've even payed out a tiny fraction of their total. But I have a feeling people will still jump in on any good investments that pop-up and 90% will work out fine, some will turn out to be scams. All this will do is make it harder for unknown people to get money.. and concentrate the money in the hands of the rich, powerful, well known players even more. What amazes me is that, once he saw it was easy to scam, he didn't take more. let's face it, his conversation with Ricdics, cut short was: Ricdics: How are you making 22%? Riethe: ((doesn't answer)) Ricdics: Are you scamming? Riethe: No Ricdics: OK, you're sound - here's 2.5 billion. Only surprising thing is that noone else has bothered doing it.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:10:00 - [5] Originally by: Ricdic Originally by: FastLearner What amazes me is that, once he saw it was easy to scam, he didn't take more. let's face it, his conversation with Ricdics, cut short was: Ricdics: How are you making 22%? Riethe: ((doesn't answer)) Ricdics: Are you scamming? Riethe: No Ricdics: OK, you're sound - here's 2.5 billion. So he pulled scam. I can live with that. What irks me is how he really did seem like a mate in-game, not trying to push for money just chatting like I would to someone. What else would you expect him to do? If I were trying to scam someone I'm sure I'd suck up to them, compliment them on what they were doing etc. You don't criticise a mark. The conversation I referred to(the only one I have logs of) was notable for two facts: 1. You didn't know how he made his profit - and when he ignored the question yo udidn't press it. 2. You actually thought asking him if he was scamming would get a useful answer. I have no other logs to form an opinin from: but on the two points I raised: 1. If no answer on how the profits were obtained were given then I wouldn't invest. I wouldn't ask the question unless I wanted to know the answer. 2. The only convincing answers to "are you scamming" are going to come from scammers. Genuine players aren't prepared for the question. When I launched my own IPO i pretty much write this question off from the start - and told potential investors they had no way of knowing if I was scamming or not: because that's the truth. I'm pretty certain I could seem more genuine if I were willing to lie than I do when I restrain myself to the truth. I give credit to others that, given the latitude of being able to lie, they can also improve their credibility. I'd therefore NEVER ask someone if they were going to scam - as the answer could never improve my knowledge of their motivation. I think what some people fail to realise is that scamming isn't THAT much different to what most of us do when running businesses successfully. Most of my profits come from either buying things for less than than what they're "worth" or selling things for higher than what they're "worth". Just we don't go round telling people lies to their (in-game) faces whilst conducting our business. I pay depositors in Fury Bank 7.5% a month (roughly). Do I think that#s a fair rate of pay for their capital? Of course not: if it was a fair rate I wouldn't bother with it. I make way more than that (as do FH shareholders) - and I'm paying the minimum I think I need to pay to get the capital I'm after. Am I scamming them? No - as there's no deception over what they're going to get. But I'm equally taking advantage of them to make a profit. The Eve market-place is largely a zero-sum game: where for one person to make a profit, someone else has to make a loss. Riethe was just rather more blatant about that than most.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Riethe It's really difficult to push the boundaries beyond this. You have to really get yourself established for people to start trusting larger funds than this. Also, how convincing could I possibly be in saying I'm putting 60 billion ISK on the trading market for general goods? That would be a lot of work for one man to do, I personally find that to be a rather crazy claim for any individual to even attempt to make. I'll have to disagree with you here. And I'll use myself as an example. I've been playing Eve just over a year. I was totally unknown on these forums until just over 6 months ago. For the last few months I've controlled around 100 billion ISK of invested capital. Luckily (for the investors/depositors) UI'm not a scammer - if I were then by now it'd be 200 billion+. And I didnt have to promise 15% per month to get that. Now, admittedly, I didn't have to spend time making up results - as I had actual ones to report. But, had I been intending to scam, I wouldn't have had to spend loads of time updating market orders etc. One difference between my business and yours is that I had significant assets to start with. But the standard of scrutiny on these forums is uch that at no stage has anyone asked me to demonstrate that I have the POS, freighter etc that I listed. Some may have determined that I have them from private investigations - but the majority of people just took my word for it. It's ironic that, whilst you took advantage of the gukllibility here you don't appear to have appreciated just how gullible and careless everyone is. You could have pauid one month's 15% (a few billion) then claimed some opportunity had arisen whereby you needed ISK fast and would pay 17.5% - and your wallet would have been flashing like crazy. I appreciate it's a bit of a knock to your ego - but you short-changed yourself, not just the people you ripped off.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:35:00 - [7] Edited by: FastLearner on 25/11/2007 01:35:16 Originally by: Potsnack You failed at Eve. You couldn't find any other way to succeed in a relatively simple game, so you picked the "easy" route. You are a bottom feeder sir, no matter how hard you try to disguise this fact to yourself. I have to disagree with you there. A lot of Eve is about manipulation of other people and/or PvP. Many people in this forum proudly boast how the market is more PvP than ship combat is. Riethe enagged in market piracy - and scored a decent gank. He convinced people to invest far better than a lot of "genuine" would-be market players do. And if he's a bottom-feeder then what are his investors? Presumably that makes them the stuff on the bottom that he feeds on :) His scam was social manipulation at it's most basic. He appealed to a base instinct (greed) and took advantage of it. Everyone directing invective at him would be better served looking at their own failings which allowed him to succeed. The only thing irksome about it is how he wants to gloat over taking easy money from soft targets: like pirates quoting killboard stats which are mainly shuttles/T1 frigates killed at a gate-camp. But he earned that right - and anyone who jumped into his gate-camp makes themselves look an idiot by complaining about it.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:52:00 - [8] Edited by: FastLearner on 25/11/2007 01:54:57 Originally by: Riethe Originally by: rtbzneeezz This post indicates just how inflated your ego is. You have no social engineering or manipulation skills. Most people that invest in shady high return IPOs like yours do so mindlessly no matter what they will post here. All the time you spent on conversations was a waste of time compared to a fake report you could have posted. The post doesn't indicate anything. Read it again from a perspective that hasn't taken a side. The guy is just trying to rile me up. It wasn't constructive at all. As far as arguing the whole real life / eve online thing, it's not worth it. It's an endless battle that no one will ever agree on. I could tell everyone here that I would never steal from my friends or steal anything in real life, but people accepting that is rather difficult considering the circumstances. I'd rather skip that step. In addition to that, the post he made assumes far too many things. First, he assumes I've never attempted to earn ISK any other way, and he assumes I had no ISK prior to any of my scams. Every statement he makes is absolute, the final word. There's no point to argue with an individual like that because he does not want to actually have a constructive discussion, he wants to try to get me upset and feel guilty over a game mechanic. A lot of readers of this forum should read this post of yours properly: as right now they're living in cloud cuckoo land. If I buy 8 billion worth of goods from someone for 6 billion then I've made 2 billion profit - and in the process the person I bought from is 2 billion worse off than if they sold those goods at proper value. Financially, that's the same as if they bought 2 billion worth of (worthless) shares from Riethe. Yet I'd get called a good trader while he's called a low-life. Drawing ANY comparisons of in-game behavior to RL behaviour is dangerous. This is a game. I kill people in this game. Sometimes I pod people after they've begged to be left alive. - and I'm not even a pirate (quite the opposite in fact). Assuming that other people use the same moral values in RL as in a game (as you do) is totally and utterly stupid - and an unfounded assumption. I'll never scam with this character - or with any other character that can be linked to it. But not because I believe scamming in a game where deceitful behaviour is not only allowed, but encouraged, is wrong. And, to move to RL just for a second. I have a rather cyical view on people's behaviour: I believe the main reason most people don't do "bad" things in RL is NOT because they believe those things are wrong - but because they're scared they'll be caught. Remove the fear of being caught and what do you have? That's right - an online game.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.25 02:10:00 - [9] Originally by: Riethe I'm very surprised you're playing devil's advocate here, or, however you'd like to refer to yourself in this situation. If I'm not mistaken, You invested as well under another name, yet you can still find your way here and argue some of these rather absurd comments being made? You're mistaken. You didn't get a single ISK from me.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro What on earth is he going to do with more shares? Probably send them out to investors who didn't get any yet to rub their noses in it.

FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:45:00 - [11] Originally by: Riethe I don't really understand how the voting system and share creation work, but for some reason I had the option to create more shares, so I wanted to see if it was a graphical thing. Why from one vote that gets approved, could I actually sanction it twice? For 1 billion ISK I'll tell you.

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