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Buy CNR or wait for golem?

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Postoronik	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:47:00 - [1] So I've managed to scrounge up about 680 mil and am very close to buying a CNR, but, is it worth it right now? Seems like in various posts I see that even with defender missiles the golem is the better option. Or perhaps I could even leg it to Amarr space where those damned Guristas aren't around .
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:53:00 - [2] Actually the CNR will out-damage the Golem (at least from when I last checked). Only thing the Golem has going for it is tractors (lol) and a few utility slots, plus the target painter bonus.
Izvilistiy	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:57:00 - [3] Ah ok screw that then lol, time for the CNR. Thank you
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:09:00 - [4] CNR would be slightly better for missions, assuming you have adequate skills and equipment (most likely you have, if you are close enough to flying Golem to consider it). Golem has better tank, but as you are already quite capable of doing those missions with T1 Raven with T2 tank without breaking a sweat then that additional tanking ability is relatively irrelevant for level 4 missions. In any case. There have been few reports where people claim that Golem might be slightly faster in some missions than CNR, but even if that is the case CNR will be cheaper for a while until Golem prices fall low enough, so would you even decide to go for Golem later it would still be reasonable to get CNR and sell it when Golem prices fall low enough to be affordable.
Mr Saito	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:17:00 - [5] Originally by: Postoronik So I've managed to scrounge up about 680 mil and am very close to buying a CNR, but, is it worth it right now? Seems like in various posts I see that even with defender missiles the golem is the better option. Or perhaps I could even leg it to Amarr space where those damned Guristas aren't around . I've been debating the same thing. I was going to get a CNR but was thinking about waiting for a Golem. Maybe I'll wait a bit for now. I'd like to hear more opinions on this. Either way, I'll be using it for level 4 mission running.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:30:00 - [6] The Golem sems to do lvl 4s faster than the cnr due to the fact that he can 1 volley bcs and cruisers due to its high aplha and tp bonus. Also you use less ammo and can fit a better tank. Id wait for the golem..
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:34:00 - [7] Keep inmind that getting a golem will make it easier isk-wise for you to fit it as it needs less launchers (obviously), while having a built-in shield amp. I guess it will only depend on their pricing range since those "savings" could go towards the price difference.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:47:00 - [8] Edited by: Shadowsword on 30/11/2007 13:48:16 The Golem is a better isk-machine. The CNR has more dps on paper, yet those who tested the Golem on Sisi report that they do missions just as fast with the Golem, if not faster. It's also a bit better cap-wise, save a not negligible amount of isks when using faction ammos, and has the classic Marauders advantages (cargo size, tractor beams and utility slots, better tank, a bit faster)... Also cheaper to pimp out with faction/officer weapons... ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:55:00 - [9] I'd say use the Golem, as long as you're using torps (due to defenders killing cruise). Cap is what makes missions doable and if you have more of that in a golem then that's what you'll be needing - not to mention the better resists!
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:58:00 - [10] Originally by: d026 The Golem sems to do lvl 4s faster than the cnr due to the fact that he can 1 volley bcs and cruisers due to its high aplha and tp bonus. Also you use less ammo and can fit a better tank. Id wait for the golem.. With cruise or siege missile launchers? One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: d026 The Golem sems to do lvl 4s faster than the cnr due to the fact that he can 1 volley bcs and cruisers due to its high aplha and tp bonus. Also you use less ammo and can fit a better tank. Id wait for the golem.. With cruise or siege missile launchers? With cruise. The trick is, the time you lose killing bs (arround 1-2 volley more each bs for the golem) you make up while killing cruisers/bcs (1 volley form the golem compared to 2-3 volleys from the cnr). Most lvl 4 i know are swarmed by cruiser/bcs so if not extremely bs heavy you gonna be a tad faster or at least as fast as the cnr with the golem. But at the same time you safe lots of isk on fitting, AMMO and you can runn a gist xl b-type perma tank (no shieldbosting micromanagement as i have to do on my gank cnr).
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:14:00 - [12] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: d026 The Golem sems to do lvl 4s faster than the cnr due to the fact that he can 1 volley bcs and cruisers due to its high aplha and tp bonus. Also you use less ammo and can fit a better tank. Id wait for the golem.. With cruise or siege missile launchers? With cruise. The trick is, the time you lose killing bs (arround 1-2 volley more each bs for the golem) you make up while killing cruisers/bcs (1 volley form the golem compared to 2-3 volleys from the cnr). Most lvl 4 i know are swarmed by cruiser/bcs so if not extremely bs heavy you gonna be a tad faster or at least as fast as the cnr with the golem. But at the same time you safe lots of isk on fitting, AMMO and you can runn a gist xl b-type perma tank (no shieldbosting micromanagement as i have to do on my gank cnr). Good to know, thanks . I'm saving up for a Golem and now looking forward to 1-volley cruiser and BC kills. Also, knowing that drones aggro whole stages and are easy to probe in low sec, using a Golem w/ TP may be quick on those pesky frigs as well (the 30k-ish isk ones). But since the sensor strength is so low, I may also end up fitting an ECCM (to protect against low sec piracy). Still leaves 5 mids for a nice tank though. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Exlegion Good to know, thanks . I'm saving up for a Golem and now looking forward to 1-volley cruiser and BC kills. Also, knowing that drones aggro whole stages and are easy to probe in low sec, using a Golem w/ TP may be quick on those pesky frigs as well (the 30k-ish isk ones). But since the sensor strength is so low, I may also end up fitting an ECCM (to protect against low sec piracy). Still leaves 5 mids for a nice tank though. Ohh i have to mention, you need TOP missile skills to be able to do the 1 volley fun. that means cruise missiles V, warhead upgrades V, advanced target painting skill at IV, the ewar range/fallof skills help to. all other relevant missile skills at least at IV. On top of that you need 4 x dg bcu and the 3% cruise missile dmg implant or 3 x dg bcu and the 5% cruisemissile dmg implant. otherwise you probably end up shooting some cruiser into hull only..
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert Nexus Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:30:00 - [14] personally id get the cnr and mission and save up till the golem falls in price and then sell the cnr and all the mods ya would fit on the cnr will go over to the golem
Xnight	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:01:00 - [15] Golem might not be cheaper at first since the demand will be very high, but will eventually drop. The CNR will get slightly more damage and with those Xlarge Gist X tanks the need for missions is practically null... But here is where the Golem shines: Partial T2 resists (about an Extra 10% kin and therm) Better slot layout (use the lows for BCU's and maybe a PDU then go with the meds for resists, cap recharge, Target painter for smaller targets) Better Tank: Now I know the need for this on a complex gear tank is moot (the CNR with the Xlarge Gistx perma tanks preety much everything) but the price tag (eventually) on this ship and the fact that it won't need all that faction gear to end up with similar results make the Golem slightly better tank wise. Tractor beam and Salvagers + the increased cargo capacity eliminates the need for a second account following in your missions salvaging stuff (it might be faster at salvaging, but it won't be more efficient, even less so if you take the time to train that alt to use some offensive vessel) The Torp changes are going to kill people that didn't get the proper range or painters on their target. Which will eventually lead to most people using cruise for missions. The golem bottom line is going to be a monster at PVE... the only catch is that in PVP it has one flaw thats even stated in the ship description... 14 base Sensor Strength... Even ECM drones can perma jam that.
Sobach Gallente Fourth Circle Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:07:00 - [16] Originally by: d026 Ohh i have to mention, you need TOP missile skills to be able to do the 1 volley fun. that means cruise missiles V, warhead upgrades V, advanced target painting skill at IV, the ewar range/fallof skills help to. all other relevant missile skills at least at IV. On top of that you need 4 x dg bcu and the 3% cruise missile dmg implant or 3 x dg bcu and the 5% cruisemissile dmg implant. otherwise you probably end up shooting some cruiser into hull only.. off-topic but, this sounds just like one of those advertisements you see talking about a great deal for whatever, and then lists like 20 pages of exclusions/restrictions
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Postoronik So I've managed to scrounge up about 680 mil and am very close to buying a CNR, but, is it worth it right now? Seems like in various posts I see that even with defender missiles the golem is the better option. Or perhaps I could even leg it to Amarr space where those damned Guristas aren't around . Imho: 1Keep those 680mill 2Invest it smart (do some market research first) 3Make more isk with 4With that money, make more isk 5Repeat 4-5 some times untill your happy 6Buy all the **** you like But thats me i guess... Nice hamster! - Mindstar Thanks! Phear this sig! - Cortes
Sarah Aubry Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:19:00 - [18] IMHO Marauders have failed their primary role as PVE ships when we are still considering what would be best. Also, does anyone really plan to use a amarr marauder for missions? Considering that a 3 month old in a raven would do them quicker... I dunno what CCP are thinking but the raven/cnr/golem is the only viable mission runner if you care about efficiency. IMHO Marauders should have been HEAPS better, but nerfed for pvp by: hardly any capacitor, but super recharge (easy for even cruisers to neut) bonus to AB, penalty to mwd things like this
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:24:00 - [19] Let's put it this way... if you barely "managed to scrounge up 680 mil ISK", then mabe, just maybe, neither the CNR nor the Golem are for you. I mean, seriously, unless you rake in something like half a bil ISK a month on a VERY bad month, you shouldn't even consider either of them. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Compendium	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:28:00 - [20] Also, going with the CNR will allow you to fly it with the same skills as a normal Raven. You can fly that now instead of training months to get something that's the same and more expensive.
Captain Blart Hideous Mutant Freekz	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:58:00 - [21] Originally by: Akita T Let's put it this way... if you barely "managed to scrounge up 680 mil ISK", then mabe, just maybe, neither the CNR nor the Golem are for you. I mean, seriously, unless you rake in something like half a bil ISK a month on a VERY bad month, you shouldn't even consider either of them. I'm not sure to understand the link between making half a billion /month and a CNR , care to explain ?
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Sarah Aubry IMHO Marauders have failed their primary role as PVE ships when we are still considering what would be best. Also, does anyone really plan to use a amarr marauder for missions? Considering that a 3 month old in a raven would do them quicker... I dunno what CCP are thinking but the raven/cnr/golem is the only viable mission runner if you care about efficiency. I'm getting a Paladin, and I really doubt that a CNR would be more effective against blood raiders/sanchas/drones. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Dragon Lord Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:40:00 - [23] Edited by: Dragon Lord on 30/11/2007 20:41:36 Been testing out the golem on sisi, and with have marauders lvl4 in just over a day. Now so far the golem is fast, when i say fast, i mean a cruise golem is as fast or faster than a torp cnr on traquility, how do i know? because ive timed myself in both cnrs, see the "Lp farming" thread. And ive tested the golem on AE, and a few others and a cruise golem outperformed my 1000dps gank cnr, which is saying alot since my golem dps is about 650 at most. Also that tractor bonus is suprisingly usefull. So if your well skilled d go for the golem, if not the cnr. I use a twin target painting setup because it allows me to one volley frigs and elite frigs, once i get marauders lvl4 anyway. Also frigs die very fast to medium drones if they are painted.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Captain Blart Originally by: Akita T Let's put it this way... if you barely "managed to scrounge up 680 mil ISK", then mabe, just maybe, neither the CNR nor the Golem are for you. I mean, seriously, unless you rake in something like half a bil ISK a month on a VERY bad month, you shouldn't even consider either of them. I'm not sure to understand the link between making half a billion /month and a CNR , care to explain ? CNR : cost a bit under 700 mil, 2 rig slots, 7 launchers Raven : cost a bit under 100 mil, 3 rig slots, 6 launchers Similar everything else except 50% larger shield buffer on CNR. So, you're looking at roughly 600 mil difference if you include all fittings too, and a CNR is slightly HARDER to fit as a Raven, in spite of that tiny extra CPU. Depending on personal skill (not actual character skills), you complete missions anywhere from almost the same or up to 30% faster in a CNR compared to a regular Raven, but salvaging-looting takes the same time as before (in a specialised ship, preferably). Usually, you can earn about 20% more ISK in a CNR "per time spent", assuming roughly above average performance, and speed-running missions (somebody else salvages/loots for you, or you just speed-run missions and discard loot/salvage altogether). ASSUMING you manage to not lose it at all, then a CNR is a "winning investment" from the get-go. However, depending on how often you actually manage to lose it, or if you NEVER plan to sell it (i.e. counts as sunk cost), it usually takes roughly 2.4 to 2.6 bil ISK earned "normally" (in other words, around 3 to 3.2 bil ISK with a CNR in the same time) for the CNR to "pay off". In other words, if your "earning level" is roughly just 600 mil a month on average, it takes up to 4 months for the CNR to pay off, assuming you don't lose it first... and sometimes, people DO make mistakes, and POOF goes the CNR (and it pays the same insurance as a regular Raven). C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert Nexus Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Akita T CNR : cost a bit under 700 mil, 2 rig slots, 7 launchers . 3 rig slots on a cnr now a golem only has 2
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:58:00 - [26] CNR has 3 rig slots
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:59:00 - [27] Oh, sorry, right, my corp's going bonkers over Golems, I can't get them out of my head Then it's even more of a price difference, since that's one extra CCC rig C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:04:00 - [28] Hmm... On A CNR, I can put in 3BCU and permatank. Any idea how Golem does for permatank with 3 BCU due to less rig slots? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Idara Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:15:00 - [29] Golem still have problems with defenders shooting down 1/4 of your DPS still? Or has that been changed? --- in EVE - Idara
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:04:00 - [30] Cap-recharge-rate-wise, the Golem has a built-in CCC-II, more or less (better cap/sec on empty hull than a Raven with a single CCC-I). As such, the Golem should have less problems perma-tanking compared to a regular Raven (or a CNR). You can fit 2x CCC-II rigs to a Golem and get a better cap recharge than a 2xCCC-II + 1xCCC-I Raven, and much higher than a 2xCCC-I + 1xCCC-II CNR. Also, the defenders were never an issue. NPC defenders are CHANCE-based, so they shoot down a certain PERCENTAGE of incoming missiles, not a fixed amount. In other words, the % DPS decrease is the same for a CNR, Raven or Golem. However, the VOLLEY damage on the Golem is greater as that of a CNR, even if its raw DPS is lower (equal to a Raven's DPS)... and you do get the nifty painter (always useful) and expvelo bonuses (not THAT useful). Golem vs CNR, clearly Golem has a much better tank, especially against Guristas and Serpentis (th/kin almost exclusively), decently higher against Angels, Mercs and even Drones (omni-damage dealers) and slightly better (the thermal part) against the rest due to the bonus resists. Of course, then there's the built-in boost amp which never hurts either Then again, TANKING missions was never much of a problem, now was it ? C\|S\|I\|N\|x.

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CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!