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Nano-Ships still exist?

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Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:38:00 - [1] I don't understand CCP and whether these mistakes are ineptude or ignorance. Why are Minmatar battleships, especially the Machariel, able to achieve 9km/s still, after the balancing, when Caldari/Amarr/Gallente ships (for the most part) can't fit it? Wish I could add more to the OP, but it's a simple question. I don't see why Vagabonds, Machariels, Typhoons, Tempests, and others are still allowed to fit for 8km/s+.
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:47:00 - [2] Originally by: Woolygimp I don't understand CCP and whether these mistakes are ineptude or ignorance. Why are Minmatar battleships, especially the Machariel, able to achieve 9km/s still, after the balancing, when Caldari/Amarr/Gallente ships (for the most part) can't fit it? Wish I could add more to the OP, but it's a simple question. I don't see why Vagabonds, Machariels, Typhoons, Tempests, and others are still allowed to fit for 8km/s+. Maybe because this game has those ships and those ships can be fitted to fly at those speeds. Makes pretty decent sense to me. I am guessing you either just got killed by one of these ships or you and your gang of 15 other KOS pilots weren't able to kill one of these ships. Either way, its your fault. ---------------------------------- I post therefore I am bored at work.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Woolygimp I don't understand CCP and whether these mistakes are ineptude or ignorance. Why are Minmatar battleships, especially the Machariel, able to achieve 9km/s still, after the balancing, when Caldari/Amarr/Gallente ships (for the most part) can't fit it? Wish I could add more to the OP, but it's a simple question. I don't see why Vagabonds, Machariels, Typhoons, Tempests, and others are still allowed to fit for 8km/s+. they aren't allowed to, they are supposed to minmatar we he spped race, thats why we can't tank very well, because we tank my going faster and having smaller sigs. Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:07:00 - [4] Minmatar "Should" be the fastest race due to poor tanking and many RP reasons which CCP seems to ignore with the passage of time. The 7-9km/s minmatar BS's and Machariel have full snake implants, probably a couple of rogue "Class 2" + Zor's Implant, polycarbon rigs, lots of T2 or faction Overdrives, Faction MWD's, and gang bonuses from a claymore or sleipnir. Sad fact Woolygimp, any ship piloted by someone with snakes, good hardwires, polycarbs, overdrives and a T2 mwd can attain ridiculous speeds that make a non-snaked/hardwired vagabond eat dust. Add to snake/hardwires, polycarb/ODJ, THEN Script affects and Nano-ships will dominate engagements even more as snipers are forced to be closer to the battle or have horrible lock time, optimals and tracking that are poor. CCP is hoping fleets will field more electronic attack ships -namely "HYENA" -fast, web-monger- in combined/mixed fleets with more emphasis on support and logistics rather than the blobarific BS only fleets. Start saving up those pennies for snakes/rogue and all the other aforementioned goodies to be uber. THUKKER -Be Paranoid Skeet Skeet L33t
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:01:00 - [5] The Machariel is not a Minmatar battleship.
Athanasios Anastasiou Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Woolygimp I don't understand CCP and whether these mistakes are ineptude or ignorance. Why are Minmatar battleships, especially the Machariel, able to achieve 9km/s still, after the balancing, when Caldari/Amarr/Gallente ships (for the most part) can't fit it? Wish I could add more to the OP, but it's a simple question. I don't see why Vagabonds, Machariels, Typhoons, Tempests, and others are still allowed to fit for 8km/s+. Translated into Gallente terms... Quote: It's a simple question, I don't see why Megathrons, astartes, hyperions, and others are still allowed to fit for over 800dps. See how rediculous that sounds? Just like wtfpwn damage is gallente specialty, speed is minmatar's specialty.
Woolygump	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Originally by: Woolygimp I don't understand CCP and whether these mistakes are ineptude or ignorance. Why are Minmatar battleships, especially the Machariel, able to achieve 9km/s still, after the balancing, when Caldari/Amarr/Gallente ships (for the most part) can't fit it? Wish I could add more to the OP, but it's a simple question. I don't see why Vagabonds, Machariels, Typhoons, Tempests, and others are still allowed to fit for 8km/s+. Translated into Gallente terms... Quote: It's a simple question, I don't see why Megathrons, astartes, hyperions, and others are still allowed to fit for over 800dps. See how rediculous that sounds? Just like wtfpwn damage is gallente specialty, speed is minmatar's specialty. and Caldari? I know my Rokh flies like a brick.
Athanasios Anastasiou Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:09:00 - [8] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 01/12/2007 00:12:53 Originally by: Woolygump Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Originally by: Woolygimp I don't understand CCP and whether these mistakes are ineptude or ignorance. Why are Minmatar battleships, especially the Machariel, able to achieve 9km/s still, after the balancing, when Caldari/Amarr/Gallente ships (for the most part) can't fit it? Wish I could add more to the OP, but it's a simple question. I don't see why Vagabonds, Machariels, Typhoons, Tempests, and others are still allowed to fit for 8km/s+. Translated into Gallente terms... Quote: It's a simple question, I don't see why Megathrons, astartes, hyperions, and others are still allowed to fit for over 800dps. See how rediculous that sounds? Just like wtfpwn damage is gallente specialty, speed is minmatar's specialty. and Caldari? I know my Rokh flies like a brick. It may fly like a brick, but fires at a greater range then the maelstrom can. Again, each race has its own specialty. Caldari has omgwtf long range optimals for its railboats. Even with 1400mm arties with tremor loaded, my optimal is <170km (I think, its been a while). Whereas a Rokh can push out to 250km.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:23:00 - [9] Ie,, some races specialties are less useful than others. :P [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Khan Durian Amarr Phoenix Pirates Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:35:00 - [10] Originally by: welsh wizard Ie,, some races specialties are less useful than others. :P Correction: Some races are less usefual than others Originally by: Graalum also its called a damage control. Not a suitcase.

Naviset	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:39:00 - [11] My problem with the nano ships is that they're less easily counter than damage is. You can pretend theres a ton of easy counters for nanoships, but you obviously haven't been to 0.0 in the last... ever.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:41:00 - [12] Bring nano recons? -----
Athanasios Anastasiou Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:29:00 - [13] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 01/12/2007 01:29:26 Originally by: Naviset My problem with the nano ships is that they're less easily counter than damage is. You can pretend theres a ton of easy counters for nanoships, but you obviously haven't been to 0.0 in the last... ever. The high price of nano-ships beg to differ. It shows that they are indeed loosable, and are being lost in decent quantities.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:39:00 - [14] Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/12/2007 01:42:33 Well Eve's fundamental principal is arguably 'risk versus reward'. It's this ground rule that makes the game fun to play, you actually commit time and effort to your career as a pilot. Other games lack this steepest of learning curves. Nano ships arguably offer greater reward for lesser risk than any other form of pvp. This is why they're so rife and why people are willing to spend billions on modules & implants. People don't use crystal or slave sets in pvp with anywhere near the same frequency. Thats because the risk you run when flying the associated ships is significantly higher than risk taken in faster hulls with snakes. This is why such high speeds are broken imo. edit: Should point out the fact that I abuse this system myself. My intentions are true. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
VB Sarge	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:54:00 - [15] They go that fast because there is that much ISK involved with them. Play around with some imaginary settings, and you can get any ship up to 20km/sec if you throw enough isk into it. Is it realistic and does it ever really happen? I'm gonna say no. 7k/sec + is pretty attainable, as long as you put enough isk into it. Snakes aren't cheap, and neither are all the rigs and fittings that are put into a ship going that fast. It's a HUGE risk vs reward issue there. If they get popped, they lose so much more. So the risk/reward ratio is a LOT higher in super nano ship cases. Sure, you can say they can always escape, but they can't. There are a lot of counters for nano ships, and a REALLY big one about to come out in a few days. One key element that most people ignore in this case is skill. Not skill points, anyone can get those... but skill. The skill of the pilots in your gang can easily counter a 8k/sec vaga or phoon. How? Well if you can't figure this out, which is quite easy, well, you obviously don't have the skill needed. I have no problem with nano ships. And yes, Minmatar SHOULD go faster than all of the other races. But at those speeds, if they get hit by a sniper ship, or get caught, they'll melt very quickly. Speed is tank, and even that is breakable.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:56:00 - [16] Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/12/2007 01:57:45 Originally by: VB Sarge ....It's a HUGE risk vs reward issue there. If they get popped, they lose so much more. So the risk/reward ratio is a LOT higher in super nano ship cases.. True but slaves & crystals also cost loads of isk and are very good but they're never used with such frequency. In this regard you're quite correct in stating that theres a HUGE risk vs reward factor but not for the reasons you're insinuating. Truth of the matter is, you're more likely to lose your tanking implant set than your snake set. This is borked risk versus reward and why everyone flies nano ships. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
VB Sarge	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:06:00 - [17] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: VB Sarge ....It's a HUGE risk vs reward issue there. If they get popped, they lose so much more. So the risk/reward ratio is a LOT higher in super nano ship cases.. True but slaves & crystals also cost loads of isk and are very good but they're never used with such frequency. In this regard you're quite correct in stating that theres a HUGE risk vs reward factor but not for the reasons you're insinuating. That's exactly what I was insinuating, that they are very expensive and not common. Hence if they are lost, it's a much bigger risk/loss. Or maybe I'm just reading your reply wrong, either way, I think we are seeing the same picture, even if our ability to describe it is a bit different. :)
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:10:00 - [18] Originally by: VB Sarge Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: VB Sarge ....It's a HUGE risk vs reward issue there. If they get popped, they lose so much more. So the risk/reward ratio is a LOT higher in super nano ship cases.. True but slaves & crystals also cost loads of isk and are very good but they're never used with such frequency. In this regard you're quite correct in stating that theres a HUGE risk vs reward factor but not for the reasons you're insinuating. That's exactly what I was insinuating, that they are very expensive and not common. Hence if they are lost, it's a much bigger risk/loss. Or maybe I'm just reading your reply wrong, either way, I think we are seeing the same picture, even if our ability to describe it is a bit different. :) Aye kinda, I guess I'm saying that the risk associated with flying expensively fitted nano ships with snakes is high but not as high as flying with slaves & crystals. In lehmanns this is simpily because fast ships are easier to keep alive than slow tankers. This is borked Risk versus reward in my eyes. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:18:00 - [19] Edited by: Graalum on 01/12/2007 02:20:03 Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: VB Sarge Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: VB Sarge ....It's a HUGE risk vs reward issue there. If they get popped, they lose so much more. So the risk/reward ratio is a LOT higher in super nano ship cases.. True but slaves & crystals also cost loads of isk and are very good but they're never used with such frequency. In this regard you're quite correct in stating that theres a HUGE risk vs reward factor but not for the reasons you're insinuating. That's exactly what I was insinuating, that they are very expensive and not common. Hence if they are lost, it's a much bigger risk/loss. Or maybe I'm just reading your reply wrong, either way, I think we are seeing the same picture, even if our ability to describe it is a bit different. :) Aye kinda, I guess I'm saying that the risk associated with flying expensively fitted nano ships with snakes is high but not as high as flying with slaves & crystals. In lehmanns this is simpily because fast ships are easier to keep alive than slow tankers. This is borked Risk versus reward in my eyes. if crystal sets were not used so heavily by missioners and slaves by cap pilots, i would assume they would be much cheaper to reflect that risk v reward. Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:24:00 - [20] Originally by: Graalum Edited by: Graalum on 01/12/2007 02:20:03 Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: VB Sarge Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: VB Sarge ....It's a HUGE risk vs reward issue there. If they get popped, they lose so much more. So the risk/reward ratio is a LOT higher in super nano ship cases.. True but slaves & crystals also cost loads of isk and are very good but they're never used with such frequency. In this regard you're quite correct in stating that theres a HUGE risk vs reward factor but not for the reasons you're insinuating. That's exactly what I was insinuating, that they are very expensive and not common. Hence if they are lost, it's a much bigger risk/loss. Or maybe I'm just reading your reply wrong, either way, I think we are seeing the same picture, even if our ability to describe it is a bit different. :) Aye kinda, I guess I'm saying that the risk associated with flying expensively fitted nano ships with snakes is high but not as high as flying with slaves & crystals. In lehmanns this is simpily because fast ships are easier to keep alive than slow tankers. This is borked Risk versus reward in my eyes. if crystal sets were not used so heavily by missioners and slaves by cap pilots, i would assume they would be much cheaper to reflect that risk v reward. True enough, that would probably be the case. Doesn't mean that the current 'nano your clone, ship, house, dishwasher & dog' trend is creating an equal playing environment though. [Balance] The Caldari problem.

Steel Tigeress Gallente Ravenous Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.01 03:37:00 - [21] My question has always been: If speed is supposed to be a viable tanking type, why is it not allowed in Deadspace vs. NPC's? I believe it was a dev that said it made missions too easy to range tank missions....but I guess its ok vs. other players. If it were up to me, MWD's would offline all weapons just like warping. Drones would go innactive. And the Cap penalty would be removed from MWD's. This would allow MWD's to be used to close distance, or to run away, but not during combat...leaving room for the AB to come into its own niche. If Minmatar then needed a boost to tanking to compensate that would be fair game.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.01 03:50:00 - [22] Originally by: VB Sarge Sure, you can say they can always escape, but they can't. There are a lot of counters for nano ships, and a REALLY big one about to come out in a few days. One key element that most people ignore in this case is skill. Not skill points, anyone can get those... but skill. The skill of the pilots in your gang can easily counter a 8k/sec vaga or phoon. How? Well if you can't figure this out, which is quite easy, well, you obviously don't have the skill needed. I have no problem with nano ships. And yes, Minmatar SHOULD go faster than all of the other races. But at those speeds, if they get hit by a sniper ship, or get caught, they'll melt very quickly. Speed is tank, and even that is breakable. There is no counter for certain nano ships. Nanocurse, Nanosac, nano-Sleip are all counterable. These are simply good ships and not overpowered. Vagabond and Machariel are stupid broken and overpowered. Especially the Vagabond due to its relatively low price. If the Vaga pilot is good, the only way to catch a Vagabond is with another Vagabond. Nothing else will work. No, a Huginn/Rapier will not do **** if he has a clue. He will be outside of the Rapier's web range before the 6-sec sensor recalibration time is done. He will be out of the Huginn's web range before it finishes warping in. Interceptors don't catch Vagabonds, Vagas are significantly faster. If the Vagabond pilot has Snakes, it's worse. Now the only way to catch him is to have your own Vagabond pilot with Snakes. A group of three good people in Vagabonds can completely cripple all activity in a region, with no counter whatsoever other than 3+ of your own good pilots, also in Vagabonds. You simply can't kill them ever with anything else, it doesn't matter how many people you bring in. They can run any gate camp, escape any ambush. Any solo target they can kill, and if its friends show up they can simply escape and nothing that can be brought in other than more Vagabonds has a prayer of catching them.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.01 03:50:00 - [23] Originally by: welsh wizard CCP are finally pulling the rug out from under Gallente feet and we're kinda going into a mini-Minmatar age now (imo). It's far less noticeable than previous 'ages' though. As a Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari pilot, I strongly feel that we're moving into a very strong Caldari age. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.12.01 03:55:00 - [24] tbo I would much rather see them nerf snake sets into near uselessness then touch minmatarr speed ships. problem is that insanely expensive fitted speed ships will always make speed tanking seem overpowered. and the machs that do 9 and 10k + are deadspace fitted with hg snakes. that is nothing to base nerfing an entire style of play off of.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.01 03:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Shardrael tbo I would much rather see them nerf snake sets into near uselessness then touch minmatarr speed ships. problem is that insanely expensive fitted speed ships will always make speed tanking seem overpowered. and the machs that do 9 and 10k + are deadspace fitted with hg snakes. that is nothing to base nerfing an entire style of play off of. Vagabond, with a straight T2 fit and no Snakes, can overload MWD to 10km/sec for escape purposes. In trin they can carry repair paste to fix their MWD up after they've gotten away so they can't even be worn down.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.01 04:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: welsh wizard CCP are finally pulling the rug out from under Gallente feet and we're kinda going into a mini-Minmatar age now (imo). It's far less noticeable than previous 'ages' though. As a Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari pilot, I strongly feel that we're moving into a very strong Caldari age. Liang Yeahhhh its a feeeling! Relaaaaaxxxx! The hippy is strong in you Nice hamster! - Mindstar Thanks! Phear this sig! - Cortes Your sigs are cool! I wont touch them anymore! - Cortes
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.01 05:13:00 - [27] Originally by: Liang Nuren As a Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari pilot, I strongly feel that we're moving into a very strong Caldari age. Liang The Raven is strong in this one. -- ADVL CEO. LootTrack Sales KB
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.12.01 05:46:00 - [28] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 01/12/2007 05:46:47 there are no nano ships no more this is a lie it is all a reflection of your higher self
Uncle Smokey	Posted - 2007.12.01 06:06:00 - [29] How come people never discuss about more common t1 or t2 setups without implants and rigs, except for fitting threads? You can do magic with any race if you got the paper. I bet you cant fly any of the ships you just mentioned and that it is your post that is a mistake of ignorance and ineptude (...whatever that is.) .:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. \o/ EVERYBODY SAY HELL YEAH! \o/
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.01 07:57:00 - [30] Machariel is gallente/minmatar. Gallente and minmatar currently most versatile pvp-wise races, right? 1 + 1 makes 2 in my book. Back on topic generally I agree no battleship sized vessel should be able to achieve more than 2 km/s speed no matter how many billions one spend on hg snakes and fitting, tfh.



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