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Another stealth drone nerf

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Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:12:00 - [1] Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 30/11/2007 23:14:26 Quote: Need for Speed (drones): The rate of fire for all drones has been doubled to decrease the number of server calls drones are making. Drone damage was doubled to balance the RoF change. Sentry drones and fighters are not affected by any of these changes. Looking past the mistake, halving the RoF and Doubling the damage will effect a nerf on the drones, as the same percentage increase in RoF adds more damage than that same increase in base damage. ----------------- Friends Forever
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:16:00 - [2] You didn't do well at maths, did you? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:16:00 - [3] Er, what? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Amberly Coteaz Amarr Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Malcanis You didn't do well at maths, did you? If you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone wrong
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:27:00 - [5] Edited by: Lance Fighter on 30/11/2007 23:28:01 wait. Lets pull some nice round numbers out of my hat. A drone does 10 damage over 1 second. that is 10 damage per second... Post 'nerf' A drone does 20 damage over 2 second. That is... wait... 20/2... OMG 10 DPS! wait a second, i jsut realised you dont just fail at maths, you fail at reading comprehension.
Darken Two Gallente Cruororis Consors Conlegium Ivy League	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:28:00 - [6] He put it badly, but he is right. Drones will get a slight DPS nerf due to overkill shots. Meh...not a big deal really. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Alan Bell Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 30/11/2007 23:14:26 Quote: Need for Speed (drones): The rate of fire for all drones has been doubled to decrease the number of server calls drones are making. Drone damage was doubled to balance the RoF change. Sentry drones and fighters are not affected by any of these changes. Looking past the mistake, halving the RoF and Doubling the damage will effect a nerf on the drones, as the same percentage increase in RoF adds more damage than that same increase in base damage. lets say 2 sec RoF and 10 damage per shot. double RoF = 4 secs. double damage = 20 damage per shot 10/2 = 5 dps... 20/4 = 5 dps. i like seeing those destroyers getting instapopped. Baka!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:31:00 - [8] Numbers are hard - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Dash Dannon	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:32:00 - [9] Yes, and lots of "stealth" nerfs in the patchnotes this time.
MyOwnSling Gallente RONA Corporation FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:40:00 - [10] Yeah, I'm afraid your math is off on this, theoretical dps is unchanged. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...

LaCoHa Bambooule TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:42:00 - [11] Edited by: LaCoHa on 30/11/2007 23:41:57 The OP is right. A ROF nerf with a Base Damage upgrade does nerf overall DPS. Specifically on drones due to the variation of hit "quality". It will be shooting less, which means that it is less likely to hit as often. or? (I suppose it will be said that it will miss less because it shoots less... but for some reason i think its not that simple... good chance I am wrong) Please school me. -LaCoHa
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:44:00 - [12] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 30/11/2007 23:45:50 Originally by: LaCoHa A ROF nerf with a Base Damage upgrade does nerf overall DPS. Specifically on drones due to the variation of hit "quality". It will be shooting less, which means that it is less likely to hit as often. In fact it will be impossible to hit as often. Because it won't be firing as often. ... What I think you are trying to refer to is some kind of interaction between the RoF and the probability of hitting, but changing the RoF doesn't change the probability of hitting, and so doesn't change the overall DPS due to the damage boost. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Atama Cardel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 30/11/2007 23:45:50 Originally by: LaCoHa A ROF nerf with a Base Damage upgrade does nerf overall DPS. Specifically on drones due to the variation of hit "quality". It will be shooting less, which means that it is less likely to hit as often. In fact it will be impossible to hit as often. Because it won't be firing as often. ... What I think you are trying to refer to is some kind of interaction between the RoF and the probability of hitting, but changing the RoF doesn't change the probability of hitting, and so doesn't change the overall DPS due to the damage boost. I think what he's trying to say is that you'll have less chances for wrecking hits?
Sejet	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:51:00 - [14] Edited by: Sejet on 30/11/2007 23:53:18 Okay, i think a few people in this tread needs to sit back and try thinking this over again. The DPS will be the same. addet About wrecking hits and the like, the % chance of each is the same so when you get a wrecking it will hit double as hard.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Atama Cardel Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 30/11/2007 23:45:50 Originally by: LaCoHa A ROF nerf with a Base Damage upgrade does nerf overall DPS. Specifically on drones due to the variation of hit "quality". It will be shooting less, which means that it is less likely to hit as often. In fact it will be impossible to hit as often. Because it won't be firing as often. ... What I think you are trying to refer to is some kind of interaction between the RoF and the probability of hitting, but changing the RoF doesn't change the probability of hitting, and so doesn't change the overall DPS due to the damage boost. I think what he's trying to say is that you'll have less chances for wrecking hits? Yes. Half as many chances in fact. But when you do get them, they'll do double the damage they currently do. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Gojyu Ever Flow DeStInY.	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:53:00 - [16] Originally by: LaCoHa Edited by: LaCoHa on 30/11/2007 23:41:57 The OP is right. A ROF nerf with a Base Damage upgrade does nerf overall DPS. Specifically on drones due to the variation of hit "quality". It will be shooting less, which means that it is less likely to hit as often. or? (I suppose it will be said that it will miss less because it shoots less... but for some reason i think its not that simple... good chance I am wrong) Please school me. -LaCoHa Incorrect, you actually have a dps increase in this change due to hit shots. Lets just for ease of calculation say there is a 50% chance of having your shot do less damage due to glances etc. In two shots, the chance of said damage lowering at least once is 75%. However, if those two shots are combined into a single shot, you only have a 50% chance of this occuring in the same space of time and damage. Now, if there's an even chance that your damage will be increased (wrecking etc), dps remains the same. If the chance of increasing is lower than the chance of it decreasing, the dps raises with this change, statistically speaking Now accepting signature commissions, contact me in-game for pricing
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:56:00 - [17] Didn't seem to have any noticeable effect on autocannons when they did this to projectile turrets a few patches back. Though the large artillery pilots were pretty happy with the improvements to that initial alpha-strike. ------ begin signature ----- Little known Eve fact, The original race names were: Amarr Empire, Caldar Empire, Minmatar Republic, The Jovians, and The Remanaquie Federation.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Gojyu Originally by: LaCoHa Edited by: LaCoHa on 30/11/2007 23:41:57 The OP is right. A ROF nerf with a Base Damage upgrade does nerf overall DPS. Specifically on drones due to the variation of hit "quality". It will be shooting less, which means that it is less likely to hit as often. or? (I suppose it will be said that it will miss less because it shoots less... but for some reason i think its not that simple... good chance I am wrong) Please school me. -LaCoHa Incorrect, you actually have a dps increase in this change due to hit shots. Lets just for ease of calculation say there is a 50% chance of having your shot do less damage due to glances etc. In two shots, the chance of said damage lowering at least once is 75%. However, if those two shots are combined into a single shot, you only have a 50% chance of this occuring in the same space of time and damage. Now, if there's an even chance that your damage will be increased (wrecking etc), dps remains the same. If the chance of increasing is lower than the chance of it decreasing, the dps raises with this change, statistically speaking There's less chance of a decrease in this situation under the new stats, but the decrease is always the equivalent of 2 decreased shots with the old stats. Under the old stats, you had a 75% chance of at least one missing, but 50% of that is times when you only get reduced damage once, which is half the reduction you take if you get just one a reduced damage hit under the new stats. It will all even out over time to the same DPS. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Gojyu Ever Flow DeStInY.	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Gojyu Originally by: LaCoHa Edited by: LaCoHa on 30/11/2007 23:41:57 The OP is right. A ROF nerf with a Base Damage upgrade does nerf overall DPS. Specifically on drones due to the variation of hit "quality". It will be shooting less, which means that it is less likely to hit as often. or? (I suppose it will be said that it will miss less because it shoots less... but for some reason i think its not that simple... good chance I am wrong) Please school me. -LaCoHa Incorrect, you actually have a dps increase in this change due to hit shots. Lets just for ease of calculation say there is a 50% chance of having your shot do less damage due to glances etc. In two shots, the chance of said damage lowering at least once is 75%. However, if those two shots are combined into a single shot, you only have a 50% chance of this occuring in the same space of time and damage. Now, if there's an even chance that your damage will be increased (wrecking etc), dps remains the same. If the chance of increasing is lower than the chance of it decreasing, the dps raises with this change, statistically speaking There's less chance of a decrease in this situation under the new stats, but the decrease is always the equivalent of 2 decreased shots with the old stats. Under the old stats, you had a 75% chance of at least one missing, but 50% of that is times when you only get reduced damage once, which is half the reduction you take if you get just one a reduced damage hit under the new stats. It will all even out over time to the same DPS. Ah, I thought I was wrong, thanks for the correction. Early morning maths is not my friend Now accepting signature commissions, contact me in-game for pricing
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:13:00 - [20] Nobody looses out. DPS will be the same, as well the chance to get wrecking shots etc. However, the only possible way someone could lose out is neglegible. I.E Lets say a rat has 1 hitpoint left. insted of killing the rat in 2 seconds, and making another shot at another target for ht enext 2 seconds, post patch the same drones will only be able to kill the first target. Again, its not like it matters, since it is neglegble due to overkills. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

Stellar Vix State War Academy	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:04:00 - [21] Edited by: Stellar Vix on 01/12/2007 01:04:49 Hypothetical My five drones attack a target for about 150 combined shots over 1 minute of those 150 shots 30 missed 30 glanced 30 hit 30 struck well 30 perfectly struck well wrecking now with the nerf as you put it in place my drones shot 75 times instead 15 missed 15 glanced 15 hit twice as hard as normal 15 struck twice as well as normal 15 perfectly struck well wrecking twice as much. The only nerf there really is going to be is the grind down on the last second missed by a hair pvp siutations where 2 seconds later it would have killed you however thats quite rare, most people lose by the minutes. SWA PVP
Harukakanata	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:11:00 - [22] this can infact be a advantage for drones, since when drones fly towards a target, their first shot will be when they fly directly at the target, any more shots will be while orbiting which will not be as good due to transversal velocity, so that first inital shot will be a good one, and next patch, itll be the equivilant of twice as many shots fired while flying head on then it does this patch.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:18:00 - [23] Edited by: Akita T on 01/12/2007 01:18:22 Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Looking past the mistake, halving the RoF and Doubling the damage will effect a nerf on the drones, as the same percentage increase in RoF adds more damage than that same increase in base damage. Looking past the mistake, doubling the RoF (i.e. a 100% increase) and doubling the damage will have absolutely no effect on drones, as the same percentage decrease in RoF adds more damage than that same increase in base damage... and since a +100% RoF increase would be completely reversed by a subsequent -50% RoF decrease, I suppose you see where this is going. Of course, you are somewhat excused, since CCP usually employs the term "increased RoF" when they want to say "decreased RoF" and vice-versa sometimes (and the same to several other "negative is good" modifiers)... or better said, the use of the term "Rate of Fire" (proper use being for "shots per second") insted one of the proper terms, either "Refire time", "Time between shots" or "Volley delay" (proper use for number of seconds). Oh, well, I've seen worse. Is it time to "Blame Canada" yet ? C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:23:00 - [24] Edited by: RigelKentaurus on 01/12/2007 01:25:37 Originally by: Harukakanata this can infact be a advantage for drones, since when drones fly towards a target, their first shot will be when they fly directly at the target, any more shots will be while orbiting which will not be as good due to transversal velocity, so that first inital shot will be a good one, and next patch, itll be the equivilant of twice as many shots fired while flying head on then it does this patch. Actually if the ROF is equal to the time your drone takes to complete its orbit around the target, some interesting things may happen: -if the first hit happens when the transversal velocity of the target is the highest, then the drone might miss, and every other shot after that might also miss. -conversely, if the first it happens when the tranversal velocity is the lowest, then every shot will hit the target. So more chance is now added to the way drones work. PS: forgot to say the point of having a twice higher ROF is to make this chance factor less visible. _________ Someday, EVE might look like this.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:28:00 - [25] The only thing that this does is make sentry drones more useless, since it negates the alfa strike advantage they had. Now all you have is the negatives mostly.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Kai Lae The only thing that this does is make sentry drones more useless, since it negates the alfa strike advantage they had. Now all you have is the negatives mostly. Explain your logic, please. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Jesnen Amarr Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:35:00 - [27] if the skill multipliers that you add to the damage from skills and ship bonuses work off of a new higher base value you should get more damage than you do now right?
Lock out Bald Industrial Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Lock out on 01/12/2007 01:38:48 Originally by: Kai Lae The only thing that this does is make sentry drones more useless, since it negates the alfa strike advantage they had. Now all you have is the negatives mostly. nevermind I think I understand what you mean
Culdees	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:38:00 - [29] 1/ now say under current rof you get 2 shots with 50% chance of hitting EACH. under new you get 1 shot with 50% chance of hitting. your chance of getting a landing shot in the same timeframe currently is better. your chance of getting a higher quality hit is better, but that quality hit will be 50% less than current. i look at it this way, you go to the tables at the casino with $100, have one game with one bet of $100 (new system) with exactly 50% odds red/black, with 100% winnings, so you walk out with $200 if you win or nothing, now with 2 games with $50 each, you eith take $0,$100,$100 or $200, ie better chance of taking something away. now couple that with the fact that the actual hit (winnings) is RANDOM, it means that your $200 win in the $100 bet may end up being a dud.. say $50, perhaps even less than ONE of the other shots. that is not balance as far as i can see, because landing the hit in the first place is more important than the quality of the hit, considering most hits wont vary in quality that much. what are the percentages of quality hits over normal hits anyway, and how much really better are they? 2/ as mentioned before, there is a loss in dps from movement/firing after kills on the edge. a frigate with 20hp left would be killed in one shot, server request, new target, move. new system would be wait extra 2 secs wait shot etc. no big loss, but still there. 3/ turret tracking. i am not sure how the tracking of drones will be affected by this?? will the fact that the turret waits before shooting that extra time mean that the turret doesnt move until the it gets another call from the server, and thus has to track faster?
JabJabVVV Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Looking past the mistake I assume the mistake you were referring to was the 'rate of fire for all drones has been doubled' bit. This isn't actually a mistake - the rate of fire has been doubled. The rate of fire (in weapon stats, in Eve) is measured in time interval per shot NOT shots per time interval. So doubling the 'rate of fire' attribute actually decreases the total fire power of the item. Hence, counter intuitively perhaps, doubling the rate of fire, when referring to Eve weapon attributes, actually halves the total damage output. Secondly I assume the reasoning behind your supposed nerf comes from the fact that a % ROF bonus adds more damage per time interval than the same % damage bonus (if re-loading time is ignored, which is fair to do for drones). This is indeed correct BUT it only works when you get a rate of fire BONUS ie the rate of fire decreases (see first paragraph as to why a ROF bonus = ROF decrease.) In this case however rate of fire is nerfed and damage is buffed in this situation the resultant DPS change is zero (if wasted damage on final shots is ignored) ie drones are not nerfed. An example if you don't believe me: let us take a fictitious module with damage=100 and ROF=5 base damage per time interval = 100/5 = 20 with a 10% damage bonus = (1.1100)/5 = 22 with a 10% ROF bonus = 100/(50.9) = 22.2 (ie a 10% ROF bonus gives more DPS than a 10% damage bonus) with a 10% ROF nerf and 10% damage bonus = (1.1100)/(51.1)= 100/5 = 20 (ie dps is unchanged) (n.b if the 'nerf' is because of another reason ignore my post as it's irrelevant ) ----------- When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things.



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CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!