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Why is Eos being destroyed?

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vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.12.02 13:25:00 - [1] Eos is being nerfed on all fronts. 1. You took away the ability to use 5 heavy drones dispite the fact the ship is supposed to be Ishtar's evil brother just like Ishtar is Ishkur's big brother. Eos can now field only 3 heavy drones at one time which is a 40% DPS drones put out slash right there. 2. You decreased its drone bay. Now it can carry 250m3 worth of drones with lvl4 Command ship which is the only sensible level to train for unless one is going into command ships all the way. Anyone trainig command ships to lvl5 will get even bigger slap in the face. After the patch Eos will be able to carry 210m3 worth of drones with command ships lvl 4 and 235m3 with lvl 5 compared to 300 m3 before. At lvl 4 this means a 16% decrease in drone versatility. 3. You took away 2 turret slots which means its damage on turrets will be slashed by 29% What types of modules can be used effectively on an Eos is beyond me but let's take a look at the obvious ones: Energy neutralizers - Anyone who ever flew an Eos into combat and took the advantage of the strongest ship bonus ( +7,5% to armor repair amount) knows the ship eats so much cap it's almost unbelivable how fast it drains the capacitor dry. A medium cap injector loaded with 800' charges is the only way to go to make a sustainable capacitor for a period of about 2 minutes because after that the charges run out and the ship is dead in the water. Why would anyone want to strain the already extremely strained capacitor with 2 extra energy neutralizers (Ship has NO bonuses for energy neutralizers) is beyond me. Cloaking device? The ship can fit a cloak and 6 turrets as it is so there is no gain beacuse the ship after patch will still be able to fit a cloak but only 5 guns. Ship cannot use launchers so the thought of fitting it with 5 blasters and 1 Heavy assault missile launcher can be scrapped before it's even born. Nosferatu? Looks like a feasible setup. Ship should even be more cap stable. 2 guns less and 2 NOS more will make the ship a lot more stable but remember that you can fit 5 turrets and 2 NOS if you have 7/7 ratio between turret slots and high slots or 5/7 ratio. This change will only mean anyone fighting an Eos will know you only have 5 guns tops and together with the massive drone nerf he will also know you are not bringing a mix of energy neutralizers and NOS and rely on drones for damage because tanking 3 heavy drones is a LOT easier than tanking 5 of them. The reduction of turret slots only means more predictable setups and the reduction of drones ship can field will amplify this problem. Why not field gang modules? Simple: Because nobody takes advantage of them. Information link bonuses are crap and that is a mild statement indeed. More EW range and more EW strength can only be really useful when flying surrounded by Falcons, Rooks and Scorpions. I have seen gangs of those roam around and never ever seen them utilize the Eos to increase their performance. Fact is that bonuses to warfare links and even using information warfare links on an Eos are a waste of a good ship. They are like Dominix used in a sniper battle. You may be able to use it but in the other 99 battles you will be just another 50k HP enemy needs to chew through while you sit there and wonder if bringing a Megathron and actually being able to fire off a few rounds would have been a better idea... 4. Taking away 1 mid slot in favor of more low slots. This will only make a toothless tiger groan more as the hostiles take a bit longer to chew through insane resists you will make possible by allowing to fit another armor hardener. This way you also take away a major chunk of versatility because the 5th middle slot was a slot utilized for EW modules mainly and people engaging an EOS would never know if he will tracking disrupt them, maybe jam them, or sensor dampen them, maybe dual web or a single web+paint to crush interceptors. -------------SIG STARTS HERE------------- Chaining BoBo in south Feyth: Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage.
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.12.02 13:26:00 - [2] Now the unpredictability of an Eos is taken away because anyone flying it into pvp will fit these 4 modules on their mid slots of the Eos if they want to take advantage of the ship: 10MN MWD or AB, Webber, Scrambler, medium cap injector. These modules are quintessential to stopping and holding down an opponent to keep him from escaping. As you can see the 5th slot is now free and you can put in a sensor booster or an ECCM module to prevent getting jammed or any of the modules mentioned above. Since the versatility is now out the window in favor of a low slot your enemies will know what you fit even before you do. In the extra low slot you can add yet another armor hardener or a Cap power relay. Putting in anything else does not make much sense. Maybe a magnetic field stabilizer to regain some of the firepower lost when number of guns was cut from 7 to 5 but for that mag field stabilizer you needed to sacrifice the unpredictability of your ship. Not a fair trade at all. All in all the Eos has been made a mediocre command ship. With it's damage output cut by one third it will have a lot more problems standing up to attackers of it's size. It has just become an even less popular ship compared to an Astarte because now it has half the damage output of an Astarte and a slightly better tank. Actually the Eos will be a less powerful clone of the Astarte for the same build price. The quality of the ship can be measured through its popularity among pilots. The popularity can be measured directly through the price the ship achieves on market. There are same amoun of both Astartes and Eos built every day. Even invention has a 50/50 split so neither ship can be claimed to be over or undersupplied and thus the price be influenced. No. Eos ALREADY is a far worse ship than an Astarte is. The builders can sell an Eos for 90 million isk while an Astarte can be sold for 175 million isk. Dispite the fact an Eos has more resists and can vary his damage through heavy drones the ship is inferior to the Astarte. Now you will decrease it's damage output even more and decrease it's drone bay and take away a medium slot to reduce the ship's versatility. Once useful ship will become a ship everyone avoids like a plague because there is an Astarte that can perform better at any task Eos can do and can be invented and build for the same price yet the owner gets so much more. The price of different tiers of Battleships vary and one can safely say a Hyperion will kill a dominix 9/10 times. Hyperion costs more so it should be better. Yet in this case a ship performs a lot worse yet the price remains the same as the other ships that can do the work done and then some for the same amount of money. I would like to know where this idea came from because i for one have not noticed the change announced anywhere and have not seen any forum discussions about the supposedly +vastly overpowered½ Eos flying around and pulverizing everything in their path. Here and now i would like this madness to stop and the changes of the Eos scrapped or a very very good group of reasons put forward detailing why exactly the Eos of all the ships is deserving a 30% damage decrease and a vast decrease in versatility -------------SIG STARTS HERE------------- Chaining BoBo in south Feyth: Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage.
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.12.02 15:08:00 - [3] First of all im not interested in single lines like: "it's overpowered" Anyone advocating with argumets like that should have their posting rights temporarily revoked in this forum section because i belive this is the forum section designed for discussion and intelligent arguments all towards the goal of betterment of EVE for the players. IF the Eos would be such a BBQer it's price would be 175million and the lesser of the two= Astarte would sell at 90million because nobody would want it. Reality is Astarte already is a superior ship and the players recognize it as that and the market demand clearly shows it resulting in high price. Thing is that vastly above average number of gallente pilots have good or even top notch drone skills and yet they prefer flying Astarte and pay 85 million isk more for it. Astarte has little use for drones but still is it obviously the command ship of choice for gallente pilots. With the proposed change the gap will only become bigger. Why exactly is the Eos being hit so hard with the nerfbat is my question. I would like someone from CCP or someone in the know to explain to me and to all Eos pilots why an already unpopular ship is being completely destroyed? Where is this change coming from? Was there any discussion that came to a conclusion that Eos is just an OMGWTFBBQing ship that needs to be balanced? What is the reasoning behind the change? Have the developers checked how many Eos pilots actually have the information warfare links fitted on their Eos. How many Eos have been destroyed in the course of EVE and had information warfare links fitted? I say it again: Market shows the ship quality very clearly and it is tilted competely into the favor of Astarte. Need i say more? -------------SIG STARTS HERE------------- Chaining BoBo in south Feyth: Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage.
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.12.02 16:12:00 - [4] The market does not agree with the "Eos is better" reasoning. Apparently the major part of EVE is siding with the fact Astarte is a better ship from the duo. So much better they are willing to trade 2 Eos for one Astarte. Even before the patch Astarte had my vote. It is a better ship than an Eos but for me is not worh double the Eos is worth so i stick with the cheaper ship. I would really like someone from CCP to come here and tell us why Eos is being "balanced" so hard dispite the fact it already is not a ship of choice for gallente command ship pilots and with this change it will become completely useless. -------------SIG STARTS HERE------------- Chaining BoBo in south Feyth: Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage.
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.12.02 16:24:00 - [5] Originally by: NeoTheo i cant remmeber what the guy was called on test centre the other day, however he pwnz0rd my raven with his EOS, sure it took some time, but he ran the tank for well over 5 mins and eventually killed me. he was saying he adapted his setup, and by god he was good, couldnt kill the git. point being, EOS was a good ship but MASSIVELY over powered, you can still fit it to be a good ship, but now you have to think about it, rather than slap some modules on and just go pwn. /Theo Maybe if you tried a mix of explosive and EMP CM/torpedoes on him instead of showering him with kinetic missiles and vespas playing directly into his strong points he would have died. I flew the Eos into quite a few 1v1 engagements with BS and came close to dieing quite a few times. I was fighting a cheaply named T1 or half T2 fitted ships and my setup was T2 all the way and im not exactly a nub. If they had invested into a full T2 fit i would die much more often. Eos was not overpowered but with the new changes it will be a useless ship because nobody wants/needs an EW boosting ship. -------------SIG STARTS HERE------------- Chaining BoBo in south Feyth: Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage.
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.12.03 09:52:00 - [6] Originally by: Augeas Don't you get it? The very fact that you were successfully soloing BS in a Fleet Command ship is fundamentally wrong. I was able to kill them only because i fitted my ship to counter EXACTLY what they were flying. They tanked against explosive and kinetic damage so i used Ogre II's and railguns to hit their weak thermal resist. They used one NOS so i used 800's charges to be able to stay alive. Mind that not many of those fit into the cargo bay and they burn all to fast. You can carry enough for 2 engagements if the hostile pilot is not good but more reallistically they will burn in one fight if the adversary konws what he is doing and that fight will end up with the Eos going pop btw. They were fighting NPCs so their capacitor was already down and the shield was already strained so all i needed to do was to add that little extra DPS i could to push them over the edge. They always used Explosive missiles so i put all my hardeners to tank explosive damage. So you can see i had a massive advantage before the fight started. Now let me say this: I have no illusions about winning a fight against an equally prepared raven pilot. With his capacitor and shields full and him knowing he will fight an Eos and not panicking once he sees me, which happened all too often, the Raven pilot would have turned my ship into a heap of rubble 10/10. I fought a good T2 blaster megathron pilot and he killed my Eos while i was beginning to break his armor tank so dont come here and tell stories of the uberness of the Eos because they are not true. As every other ship Eos excells in a very limited set of circumstances and dies quickly in all others. With the change the Eos will not excell anywhere anymore and will die just as fast as it did before because nobody will give a second thought about sacrificing some DPS for the tank because with the puny dmg output it will have the Eos will be like throwing rocks at a wall hoping it will crumble. Sure; an Eos fitted with 3* core X-type hardeners and 2* centum repairers and 2* T2 rigs will take a silly amount of punishment but he cannot hold that for long because his cap charges will run out sooner than later and after that it's just a dead fish in the barrel. But he fact is that maybe .05% of the Eos pilots pimp out their ships for pvp with 2 bill worth of equipement. Vast majority need to be content with T2 fittings which are basically a standard fit these days anyway. P.s. I even did the bait thingy a few weeks ago. It went south when an Abaddon neuted my cap and all i was able to do was to warp out with my capsule. Sure your Eos can rep 5000 hp per cycle with 99% across the board but at the hands of a competent enemy that wont help you one iota because they know to drain Eos's cap and it becomes harmless. There will not be much cap to drain too. Because after you fire off your tank you'll be @ 50% in no time. So: CCP. Why is the Eos being destroyed? -------------SIG STARTS HERE------------- Chaining BoBo in south Feyth: Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage.
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.12.03 21:54:00 - [7] If the Eos would already be such an awesome ship in its current reincarnation then people would fly it a lot more. Well...They dont. Why? Simply because Astarte is better than Eos. So much better that people are willing to pay twice as much for an Astarte than an Eos. The Eos is in the same (price=quality in the eyes of the players) bracket as the Claymore and Vulture so obviously it's not so much better as some would like to show it. Dispite the fact Eos needs about a month more training to fly than the Astarte and needs T2 heavy drones trained also to use effectively compared to Astarte which takes another month or so and the pilots having trained that also trained drone interfacing lvl 5 which is a rank 5 skill and not having i trained hurts the Eos pilot a lot more than the Astarte pilot. Eos is a drone carrier after all and having drones nearly maxe out helps a lot. Yet Eos is a lesser ship from both already and with the proposed nerf it will only get a whole lot worse. Why? Claymore has a useful gang bonus. Vulture and Damnation have very good gang bonuses that benefit all ships in the gang and are actually useful. Information links are not used at all as every Eos pilot can confirm. Actually information links are a useles bunch atm. So with the changes coming Eos will be downgraded to a useless ship. Maybe useful for baiting but we all know a damnation can do that a lot better. All i would like is for CCP to either: 1. Make a good argument as to why Eos is about to become a useless ship i wasted a month worth of training on. 2. Scrap the proposed changes and leave the ship as it is because one look at the market will show you that the Astarte is a better ship and Eos is ok as it is 3. Loose the drone nerf at least and the slot changes because with only 4 mid slots the poor souls still dumb enough to fly it will be totally predictable and adding at least a missile slot would go a long way to ensure people will still fly it. 4. Keep the proposed changes but in that case you need to review the ship bonuses and its role because the ship Eos is supposed to be is a ship nobody will fly because there are plenty of other ships that can do what Eos does after the patch way better. -------------SIG STARTS HERE------------- Chaining BoBo in south Feyth: Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage.
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Originally by: vipeer Read above post! 1) Just crosstrain the Damnation. You have (should have) t2 armor tank at least, and apparently tank is all that matters for a fleet command ship. And the Damnation has one heck of an armor tank. Should take another month at best. 2) The market as it is would not be a good indicator; much of the recent fluctuation has a lot to do with the nerfs being known. 3) If you knew the Astarte was a better ship, why in the hell did you train for the Eos? Surely it wasn't to run commandlinks, since you considered damage to be above all else. 4) Want a pocket drone carrier? It's called the Ishtar. It also gets a damage bonus to drones. Yes, CCP needs to take a good look at the Eos. But, posts like yours do little to help our cause. Eos has always been priced below 100 mill isk in Jita and about 100M in other markets. While Astarte never went below 120Million and it's regular price is about 60% more than Eos. The new developments only turned the Eos price down a bit now. The price not falling sharply can be attributed to the fact Eos costs 75-80M to build so the profit margin is slim as it is and is about to come close to 0. I already crosstrained for Minmatar command ships and have been seriously pondering training Amarr too. I probably will do it too. I knew the Astarte was a better ship from the start. The fact i had 5M SP in drones weighed heavily when i pondered which ship to train for. Then i saw Astarte is priced at double the price of the Eos the decision was made. Before Eos i flew Ishtar and i know what it can do and what it cannot do. I upgraded to an Eos because it was a bigger better and meaner version of the Ishtar. Now a dedicated drone carrier ship has it's drone bay cut by 16% and can only field 3 heavy drones. Thank you very much but i'll pass. P.s. You should read all my posts in this thread i started and not just one then comment. Afaik this is the only seriou thread on this forum discussing Eos changes. The other two are there to make fun of CCP and vent frustration over it. -------------SIG STARTS HERE------------- Chaining BoBo in south Feyth: Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage.

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