Look up margin trading scam - you won't need to look far.

Does ccp have an official response to this scam type so i can stop checking my petition

It serves a legitimate function, roughly the same function margin trading provides IRL.

it does not 'Silently' fail - it will tell you that the requested market order no longer exists - your market information may have been out of date or someone filled the order before you - is the phrasing. Unless you have disabled this warning, it does not silently fail.

In real life you get thrown in real federal bu** FU** prison for scamming people out of millions. In real life you cant create just delete yourself and pop up in 8 other forms immune to the government. I agree it serves an enormous role in real life economics and wealth creation, but here it just is an exploit.

I hear yah.

I really do not understand why CCP has not removed margin trading from the game.

It's intent was so that you could place multiple buy orders in multiple markets while not tying up so much isk in escrow. I doubt it is ever used for this purpose. Generally when a game mechanic is used in a way other than intended for dishonest gain it is considered exploiting a flawed game mechanic and the mechanic is fixed or removed.

I really do not understand why it is still here.

I hear yah.

I really do not understand why CCP has not removed margin trading from the game.

It's intent was so that you could place multiple buy orders in multiple markets while not tying up so much isk in escrow. I doubt it is ever used for this purpose. Generally when a game mechanic is used in a way other than intended for dishonest gain it is considered exploiting a flawed game mechanic and the mechanic is fixed or removed.

I really do not understand why it is still here.

In real life you get thrown in real federal bu** FU** prison for scamming people out of millions. In real life you cant create just delete yourself and pop up in 8 other forms immune to the government. I agree it serves an enormous role in real life economics and wealth creation, but here it just is an exploit.

Of course it's used for its intended purpose. Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean that no one else does. I like it that I can place buy orders for fairly low volume items (or at prices that aren't the best, because I don't care about the volume coming in quickly) and still keep the ISK that would have otherwise been tied up liquid, for investing in things that make me more ISK quickly. The fact that I have more money in the wallet to invest in whatever means I make that much more money, when otherwise it would have all just been sitting in buy orders that aren't about to be filled in the next two hours.

As has already been pointed out, people make mistakes. Someone made a mistake with their WTB contract, and someone else capitalized on it. Someone else made the mistake of not looking up popular scams to see that this one is on that list, and someone else capitalized on it. Though in this case, if the OP is out of money and tags aren't to be found anywhere, it's a bug.

Would be cool if they would allow wallets to just go negative and that toon could not set up any orders until returning to positive wallet. They would also have to make it so you can not delete or transfer a character off an account with a negative wallet.

I hear yah.

I really do not understand why CCP has not removed margin trading from the game.

It's intent was so that you could place multiple buy orders in multiple markets while not tying up so much isk in escrow. I doubt it is ever used for this purpose. Generally when a game mechanic is used in a way other than intended for dishonest gain it is considered exploiting a flawed game mechanic and the mechanic is fixed or removed.

I really do not understand why it is still here.

I use it every day so I can keep 50+ buy orders up and running on a region-wide basis. Not everybody lives in Jita.

If I could double my ISK every time this suggestion was made, I'd still not have anywhere near the amount of infinite ISK the above would give me.

I can understand that.

But there should be a mechanic added that will allow you to have the minimal escrow but not allow the orders to fail. In the real world, if you are margin trading and you do not have the cash to back your orders at the end of the day, there is hell to pay. They can seize your assets and throw you in Jail.

Would be cool if they would allow wallets to just go negative and that toon could not set up any orders until returning to positive wallet. They would also have to make it so you can not delete or transfer a character off an account with a negative wallet.

And how would that work?

In real life you get thrown in real federal bu** FU** prison for sca[i][mming people out of millions. In real life you cant create just delete yourself and pop up in 8 other forms immune to the government. I agree it serves an enormous role in real life economics and wealth creation, but here it just is an exploit.

Oh really, I missed that fine print you speak of where under the market order it says, the order is placed but the funds to back it are absent. Would you kindly point it out for me

[quote=Bugsy VanHalen]


What does this mean to you. You place money into escrow and open the trade with margin. While the trade is on the broker is calculating your profit/loss. If your loss exceeds your remaining equity the trade is automatically closed at the zero point and that's it. There is no negative as the broker is 100% liable for you going negative and must eat the loss. So they will not allow you to go negative. While the trade runs negative you'll also notice your available equity shrinks at a rate of the margin size to keep the overall margin in place until available equity hits near zero.

Similarly CCP is doing the exact same thing. You have a margin and money is placed in escrow for the trades. As the trades go they monitor your wallet and will cancel or zero out the trade when it exceeds your remaining equity, they will not allow you to go negative as well. Leveraged trading is a very powerful tool for traders and a small portion of scamers use it as well. Should we ban can ejection in space because a small portion of scamers use it on newbies to kill them or flip miners who then die?

In real life you get thrown in real federal bu** FU** prison for scamming people out of millions. In real life you cant create just delete yourself and pop up in 8 other forms immune to the government. I agree it serves an enormous role in real life economics and wealth creation, but here it just is an exploit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but te big difference is the lack of the broker party in Eve that is filling the purpose of a real life margin trading. Thus the possibility of a margin trade scams.

I guess to sum it up.

Now i know. Dont trust market orders.

That said CCP has clarified contract pricing and added the II/III/faction */other corner icons to items, so maybe they'll bow to the careless in the end, and the game will get a little less fun.

I guess to sum it up.

Now i know. Dont trust market orders.

Yes the buyer wanted 20 units at once but never had the isk to cover the buy, this is in bad faith.

Yeah, had something like this happen to me; I'm hoping they answer my petition, but I'm not holding my breath.
Kind of surprised to see scams on the market itself, as opposed to the contracts.

Why is it in bad faith? By the time that order would have been filled (less likely because it's demanding a higher quantity to be sold to it at one time), I could have been expecting to have the money to cover it. That's the entire point of Margin Trading, after all, to give a trader the ability to not have the cash on hand to cover the order. If I must have the cash on hand, then the Margin Trading skill is useless.

I'm not saying gut the margin trading skill but these scams are easy to identify from a code perspective. If suddenly you have a buy order that is over 2000% above the market sell order and market buy orders with an attached min to avoid clearing out the market then it is only a scam and the change I described could kick in.

I'm also not condemning people who use the trick nor do I expect CCP to put this issue on anything but the back burner as it's not a major issue and not something deserving of a bunch of attention. Like everything in EVE, people need to be careful of that honey pot with a huge shinning spotlight lighting it up.

It's called a 'scam' but in fact is not.
Below is what happened.

- YOU bought an item, which is exactly the same item YOU intended to buy, at the price YOU decided was appropriate.
- YOU tried to sell the item at the price YOU decided was appropriate.
- The market mechanic properly functioned and legitimately cancelled the buy order so that YOU don't end up selling the item at a price lower than YOUR set price.
- The item still remains in YOUR possession.

The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item.

Misjudging the value of an item is itselft very difficult to do because market price history data up to 1 year is instantly available in-game. Also, just make a few jumps and you can check other region's price data as well.

Nothing wrong with the market mechanic here.

Dammit, i thought this post was buried and was dying.
The part i love "The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item"
Your an idiot. The value of an item is projected as the price people are willing to buy it at. Which is broadcast to all the eve players by market orders. VALUE=what people are willing to pay for it. BUY ORDERS= what people are willing to pay for it.
But yes, the matter has been resolved and I got my isk back

And how would that work?

If it just allowed the characters wallet to go negative then yes but if you could not place any market orders or delete that character to create a new one while the character had a negative wallet how would you use that mechanic to make money? One scam per alt 3 alts per account = 3 scams max per account compared to the unlimited scamming that can be done currently.

The only way around it would be to repeatedly start new accounts, and if they made margin trading a non trial account skill as many other skills are that would get expensive very fast. either buying plex to activate each new account or spending a butt load of real money.

True most of these scams make more than enough to cover the cost of a plex, still a big chunk out of the profits, but if you could only do 3 scams per account before needing a new account. And if someone messed with you profits by under cutting your sell orders you could actually lose isk.

It would make these scams still possible but far less appealing as it would involve a lot more work and risk to pull it off.

I've been an active equity and options investor/speculator for over five years. Buruk pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comments. The system in Eve needs to change, the order placer needs to get a kick to the shorts with a negative wallet. I hope they make this change and don' t tell anyone, that would be hilarious!

As for the scam side of it, while it is a rather amusing use of game mechanics, it isn't realistic at all. And yes, I did say "realistic" when referring to an internet space ship game. PEW PEW PEW

you are not supposed to "trust" anything...

So... I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click something on the UI, that thing happens? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click the "quit game" button on the escape screen that the program will exit? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when i want to buy a ship and i have the isk, that i can say "buy this" and it happens? I'm not supposed to trust that if there is a buy order posted by someone who has decided they want to buy an item for a certain price, that i can go do the work to go retrieve that item, and then i can go fulfill the buy order, and that it will happen?

That's just ridiculous.

people are not understanding the difference between what you should be able to trust and what you should not.

people are not understanding the difference between what is a scam and what is an exploit.

people are not understanding the difference between "intelligence" and "intuition".

Plain and simple - this is a problem, and there are lots of viable fixes. Trouble is, it looks like the topic is far too clouded with verbal battles to allow the very viable proposals that people have made to get fair discussion.

Clearly, the margin trading concept was a nifty idea that has legitimate uses, but it has a flaw that allows it to BREAK THE GAME. and BADLY. "very" badly, in fact. - normally when such a thing is found, it is fixed. Especially when there are ways to fix it that dont break anytihng.

Cant we talk about how to fix this properly?

Just so you know
the eve market IS made of buy and sell orders

Oh, and there is an information window that indicates who the buyer is, and what his current wallet balance is. Can you show me this window.

Tool