Originally by: ChimeraRouge

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arazu and the other ones are now in line with the other recons. nobody uses those ships anyway or very few do.

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Originally by: General Coochie

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Lachesis and arazu are now the worst T2 cruiser hands down. There isn't another T2 cruiser thats worse...

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 06/12/2007 11:10:33
Yeah. Damp nerf was needed, but the specialist ships should also have been buffed to compensate (same goes for tracking disrupters and curse/pilgrim).

Celestis/Lachesis/Arazu aren't much worth flying now, sadly enough. You'll at most be able to hinder one ship, while with a Rook you'll be able to totally lock down 2-4 ships. No contest.

Until this is fixed, dedicated EW pilots should just switch to ECM and Rooks/Falcons/Scorps.

Making damps weak on normal ships = good.

Making damps weak on specialist damper ships = fail.

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Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff

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Originally by: ChimeraRouge

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arazu and the other ones are now in line with the other recons. nobody uses those ships anyway or very few do.

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Honestly mate, you have no ****ing clue what you are talking about. They are not balanced, they are nerfed to oblivion. And if you think nobody ever uses recons, then you should consider visiting lowsec or 0.0 sometime.

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Originally by: ChimeraRouge

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arazu and the other ones are now in line with the other recons. nobody uses those ships anyway or very few do.

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Originally by: ChimeraRouge

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arazu and the other ones are now in line with the other recons. nobody uses those ships anyway or very few do.

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Originally by: CFC Fodder

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Okay, so CCP nerfed sensor damps so that they weren't overused/abused/whatever. Cool. Now you have to choose (for each dampener) whether to mess with somebody's lock time, or their lock range. Alright, I'll play along, that shouldn't affect specialized ships much, right?

Wrong. Not only do you lose one attribute when using scripts on a dampener (again, I'm fine with that), but I've also lost a full 20% off of each dampener on top of that -either before or after scripts, doesn't really matter how you calculate it. My Sensor booster wasn't affected in the same way (do have to use scripts of course), so this effectively kills off damps, and especially kills off Gallente Recon ships (expensive, ineffective) as a usable ship outside of an EW only gang. At that point, since you'd need an EW heavy gang to make sure your Arazu/Lachesis doesn't die, you may as well use a Falcon/Rook, and just skip the middleman and and jam targets from ever locking.

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Originally by: CFC Fodder

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Okay, so CCP nerfed sensor damps so that they weren't overused/abused/whatever. Cool. Now you have to choose (for each dampener) whether to mess with somebody's lock time, or their lock range. Alright, I'll play along, that shouldn't affect specialized ships much, right?

Wrong. Not only do you lose one attribute when using scripts on a dampener (again, I'm fine with that), but I've also lost a full 20% off of each dampener on top of that -either before or after scripts, doesn't really matter how you calculate it. My Sensor booster wasn't affected in the same way (do have to use scripts of course), so this effectively kills off damps, and especially kills off Gallente Recon ships (expensive, ineffective) as a usable ship outside of an EW only gang. At that point, since you'd need an EW heavy gang to make sure your Arazu/Lachesis doesn't die, you may as well use a Falcon/Rook, and just skip the middleman and and jam targets from ever locking.

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Originally by: joshmorris

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Well joy for the nerf it was needed ... but

Ive never seen a thread asking for a nerf for arazu / lachesis , know why ? Because they were balance, they weren't over powered nor underpowered ... they were just right.

The damps for nerf have indirectly effected these two ships because there bonus really isnt enough to compensate for the nerf so basically CCP has nerfed a perfectly balanced ship.

I think the bonus should be put up to 10% or 7.5% per lvl to make this ship cabiable of shutting down 1 non-sniper bs to about 5-10k (it could always shoot close range gun ships as the arazu / lach pilot would be using range scripts)

At the moment this ship has a 0% chance of taking a non-sniper bs out of the fight with its ewar, at least the falcon / rook has a CHANCE.

SO yeah buff the bonus up to 7.5 % on damp specialized ships (incl the new electronic attack ship)

This isn't a whine its the truth so my flame suit is in the drawer.

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Originally by: vostok

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this is a balance to the arazu, it means that the arazu + any damage dealing ship in the game doesn't just wins. the arazu and lachesis frankly don't need the boost, they are still awesome.

and yes they were broken, any ship that can totally lock down any other ship thats not a mothership or titan is im afraid broken

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Originally by: vostok

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Originally by: joshmorris

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Well joy for the nerf it was needed ... but

Ive never seen a thread asking for a nerf for arazu / lachesis , know why ? Because they were balance, they weren't over powered nor underpowered ... they were just right.

The damps for nerf have indirectly effected these two ships because there bonus really isnt enough to compensate for the nerf so basically CCP has nerfed a perfectly balanced ship.

I think the bonus should be put up to 10% or 7.5% per lvl to make this ship cabiable of shutting down 1 non-sniper bs to about 5-10k (it could always shoot close range gun ships as the arazu / lach pilot would be using range scripts)

At the moment this ship has a 0% chance of taking a non-sniper bs out of the fight with its ewar, at least the falcon / rook has a CHANCE.

SO yeah buff the bonus up to 7.5 % on damp specialized ships (incl the new electronic attack ship)

This isn't a whine its the truth so my flame suit is in the drawer.

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ok, now straight off, not reading all of the posts since but anyways... copied from another thread earlier:

now using the horrible stacking forumula (via the magic of spreadsheets):

Base
before - 48%
after - 34%

skills (25%)
before - 61%
after - 51%

ship bonus (25%)
before - 71%
after - 63%

rig 1 (10%)
before - 74%
after - 67%

rig 2 (8.7%)
before - 76%
after - 69%

Eos command link (26%/16%)
before - 82%
after - 74%

this means that with 3 damps you can still reduce a targets range by 95% where it used to be 97%. the biggest difference being that you will have to use all of your damps to kill somebodies target speed too.

this is a balance to the arazu, it means that the arazu + any damage dealing ship in the game doesn't just wins. the arazu and lachesis frankly don't need the boost, they are still awesome.

and yes they were broken, any ship that can totally lock down any other ship thats not a mothership or titan is im afraid broken

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Originally by: vostok

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Originally by: joshmorris

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Well joy for the nerf it was needed ... but

Ive never seen a thread asking for a nerf for arazu / lachesis , know why ? Because they were balance, they weren't over powered nor underpowered ... they were just right.

The damps for nerf have indirectly effected these two ships because there bonus really isnt enough to compensate for the nerf so basically CCP has nerfed a perfectly balanced ship.

I think the bonus should be put up to 10% or 7.5% per lvl to make this ship cabiable of shutting down 1 non-sniper bs to about 5-10k (it could always shoot close range gun ships as the arazu / lach pilot would be using range scripts)

At the moment this ship has a 0% chance of taking a non-sniper bs out of the fight with its ewar, at least the falcon / rook has a CHANCE.

SO yeah buff the bonus up to 7.5 % on damp specialized ships (incl the new electronic attack ship)

This isn't a whine its the truth so my flame suit is in the drawer.

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ok, now straight off, not reading all of the posts since but anyways... copied from another thread earlier:

now using the horrible stacking forumula (via the magic of spreadsheets):

Base
before - 48%
after - 34%

skills (25%)
before - 61%
after - 51%

ship bonus (25%)
before - 71%
after - 63%

rig 1 (10%)
before - 74%
after - 67%

rig 2 (8.7%)
before - 76%
after - 69%

Eos command link (26%/16%)
before - 82%
after - 74%

this means that with 3 damps you can still reduce a targets range by 95% where it used to be 97%. the biggest difference being that you will have to use all of your damps to kill somebodies target speed too.

this is a balance to the arazu, it means that the arazu + any damage dealing ship in the game doesn't just wins. the arazu and lachesis frankly don't need the boost, they are still awesome.

and yes they were broken, any ship that can totally lock down any other ship thats not a mothership or titan is im afraid broken

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Originally by: vostok

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Base
before - 48%
after - 34%

skills (25%)
before - 61%
after - 51%

ship bonus (25%)
before - 71%
after - 63%

rig 1 (10%)
before - 74%
after - 67%

rig 2 (8.7%)
before - 76%
after - 69%

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Originally by: Donna Maria

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So now u can't lock down 2 battleships with 1 Arazu, guess what, why should it? Adapt, overcome, R=I=S=E A=B=O=V=E !

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Originally by: Theron Gyrow

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Originally by: Donna Maria

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So now u can't lock down 2 battleships with 1 Arazu, guess what, why should it? Adapt, overcome, R=I=S=E A=B=O=V=E !

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Heh. You cannot lock down even one battleship, especially if there are close-range ships in your gang.

And yes, I'm adapting, I'll be training Caldari Cruiser V in the near future (along with Caldari BS V and torpedoes V).

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Originally by: Cypress Cavalero

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it is exactly this kind of foru whining that has cause the damp nerf in the first place, if people didnt over use and train FOTM then the endles nerfcyle would come to a stop.
stop crying becos ur ship got nerfed its EVE it happenes every patch to someone, the rook and falcon get nerfed the pilgrim and curse go nerfed, what makes you think ccp would leav alone a ship that is bein abused a sologankmachine when it is intended as a RECON ship.
the less whines ppl make the less nerfs we will get.

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Originally by: Theron Gyrow

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Originally by: vostok

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Base
before - 48%
after - 34%

skills (25%)
before - 61%
after - 51%

ship bonus (25%)
before - 71%
after - 63%

rig 1 (10%)
before - 74%
after - 67%

rig 2 (8.7%)
before - 76%
after - 69%

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And now for some correct numbers:
Base
before - 48%
after - 34%

skills (25%)
before - 61%
after - 42.5%

ship bonus (25%)
before - 71%
after - 53.125%

rig 1 (10% before, 5% after)
before - 74%
after - 55.78%

rig 2 (8.7% before, 4.35% after)
before - 76%
after - 58.2%

Might this change your conclusions somewhat?

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Originally by: joshmorris

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Originally by: Theron Gyrow

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Originally by: vostok

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Base
before - 48%
after - 34%

skills (25%)
before - 61%
after - 51%

ship bonus (25%)
before - 71%
after - 63%

rig 1 (10%)
before - 74%
after - 67%

rig 2 (8.7%)
before - 76%
after - 69%

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And now for some correct numbers:
Base
before - 48%
after - 34%

skills (25%)
before - 61%
after - 42.5%

ship bonus (25%)
before - 71%
after - 53.125%

rig 1 (10% before, 5% after)
before - 74%
after - 55.78%

rig 2 (8.7% before, 4.35% after)
before - 76%
after - 58.2%

Might this change your conclusions somewhat?

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Yup yours are more correct,

Hmm so we have to buy rigs be max skilled and have a eos with links with us to take 1 battleship down to under 10k if were lucky.

Before the patch i didnt mind that a caldari recon could shut down alot more targets than me because i knew i could lock quicker than him and shut him down before he shuts me down also i had a extra bonus.
But now my disruptor bonus is shadowed by lots of other new "improvements" to other ships and i cant even shut down 1 ship with my damps.

Before CCP nerfs stuff to make it better DO NOT nerf caldari recons ffs (don't want it to go down that road, there fine imo) ... just give a tiny buff (extra5% )to gallente recons and it will all be fine !!!1!11!!

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Originally by: Cypress Cavalero

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hehe look at the gallente cry!!
its goiung to get worse you people do realise this lokk at you compard to crapdari and i canot wait for the long list of nerfs thats coming your way as you have been the uber race for too long and ccp is finally doing something about it.
good luck with the nerfbat, may your hype become the new raven, PVE ONY:P

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Originally by: Cypress Cavalero

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i mean the entir race hehe you have to admitthe ships are STUPIDLY overpowered hehe

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 06/12/2007 11:10:33
Yeah. Damp nerf was needed, but the specialist ships should also have been buffed to compensate (same goes for tracking disrupters and curse/pilgrim).

Celestis/Lachesis/Arazu aren't much worth flying now, sadly enough. You'll at most be able to hinder one ship, while with a Rook you'll be able to totally lock down 2-4 ships. No contest.

Until this is fixed, dedicated EW pilots should just switch to ECM and Rooks/Falcons/Scorps.

Making damps weak on normal ships = good.

Making damps weak on specialist damper ships = fail.

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Originally by: joshmorris

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Originally by: Naviset

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Edited by: Naviset on 06/12/2007 11:25:45

Originally by: ChimeraRouge

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arazu and the other ones are now in line with the other recons. nobody uses those ships anyway or very few do.

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In line? No they're not. And as for people using recons.. Have you been to 0.0 like... ever?

CCP nerfed damps by over 50% (when I felt they were balanced on gallente recons before. Note I think that them being as good as they were on other ships was ridiculous though).

CCP also introduced 5 ships that have scrambling range bonus, making the arazu/lach effectively useless.

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Oh yeah i forgot that other ships have been introduced with warp disruptor range bonus ... so basically the other role for gallente recons has been shadowed.

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