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SloBones
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.12.06 17:56:00 -
[1]
If I'm not mistaken the Ishkur was made to be a drone frigate... So why is it that you can't launch 3 lights and 2 medium drones? This is stupid I've never heard anyone complain about it being over powered. But now that you can't run 3 lights and 2 mediums the DPS is greatly effected.
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joshmorris
Ravenous Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:04:00 -
[2]
Its gallente it has to be nerfed ... its the rules ...
Tbh thats uncalled for though.
Uber idea solves all !! |
Boran Tisk
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:07:00 -
[3]
It can still launch what....4 more drones than any other AF?
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Augeas
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:08:00 -
[4]
Isn't it still the best AF? 
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:12:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: joshmorris
Its gallente it has to be nerfed ... its the rules ...
Tbh thats uncalled for though.
Dont worry some day youll get a gallente-oomph and youll be happy like we are.
On a more serious note: How about the unnerf all AFs?
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InLogOffskiWeTrust |
joshmorris
Ravenous Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Augeas
Isn't it still the best AF?
But remember our dps can be killed ... especially more easier now so if i was in a minny assualt frig and a ishkur attacked me i could prolly insta pwn its drones ... 3 blasters ent gonna do much then.
Uber idea solves all !! |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:14:00 -
[7]
Maybe it went along the lines of medium drones = medium sized weapons, which is an unfair advantage for a frigate sized ship?
I'd like to even HAVE a drone bay on my Caldari AF's - or medium blasters  .
You could put in some warrior II's...
I'm sure its frustrating - I'm waiting for the eventual Caldari nerf in a couple months because the forum's Midol supply ran out. 
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Praxis1452
The Bastards
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:15:00 -
[8]
Not really the best AF. And umm... AF's suck anyway so it's the best of the worst. Really something great right?
Light drones can be killed easily but the good thing is that they are hard to hit. That's really their only advantage.
But yeah.. damage is nerfed. 99dps with max skills and 5 light drones hobgob II's. Personally I would carry warrior II's. And 3 small blaster's on a ship with an optimal bonus works but rails are better. Overall damage with the ship isn't that great.
ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
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achoura
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:17:00 -
[9]
Acutally the amarr ewar frig has a bigger dronebay 
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joshmorris
Ravenous Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: achoura
Acutally the amarr ewar frig has a bigger dronebay
Thats because it sux lol
Uber idea solves all !! |
Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:28:00 -
[11]
Yeah, this just won't do. 
The Ishkur needs to brought into line with the Hawk immediately! 
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Shereza
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:31:00 -
[12]
Quote:
But yeah.. damage is nerfed. 99dps with max skills and 5 light drones hobgob II's.
So the ishkur lost a bit over 19.5% of its drone DPS. Oh well, that's less than the myrmidon and eos lost.
Of course drones only make up 28%, or less, of the ishkur's potential maximum DPS.
Downgraded, sure, but "nerfed," to me at least, implies borerline uselessness. Of course to hear some people talk by that definition assault ships have been nerfed for years.
Originally by: joshmorris
Originally by: achoura
Acutally the amarr ewar frig has a bigger dronebay
Thats because it sux lol
It's the ishkur's little sister. 10m3 more drone bay, and it's static, not skill-based, but it can only put out 20m3 of drones at a time.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2007.12.06 18:38:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Grimpak on 06/12/2007 18:38:24
always used T2 light drones in the ishkur since med drones have the trouble with keeping up with 4km/sec targets (like what up eh?), so this change is actually good since now I have more space to slap T2 warriors in the drone bay (2 full wings \o/)
and yes, Afrigs have been nerfed for years.
---
planetary interaction idea! |
Praxis1452
The Bastards
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Posted - 2007.12.06 21:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shereza
Quote:
But yeah.. damage is nerfed. 99dps with max skills and 5 light drones hobgob II's.
So the ishkur lost a bit over 19.5% of its drone DPS. Oh well, that's less than the myrmidon and eos lost.
Of course drones only make up 28%, or less, of the ishkur's potential maximum DPS.
Downgraded, sure, but "nerfed," to me at least, implies borerline uselessness. Of course to hear some people talk by that definition assault ships have been nerfed for years.
Originally by: joshmorris
Originally by: achoura
Acutally the amarr ewar frig has a bigger dronebay
Thats because it sux lol
It's the ishkur's little sister. 10m3 more drone bay, and it's static, not skill-based, but it can only put out 20m3 of drones at a time.
28%. I'm betting that's with a totally unreal setup with neutron's and magstabs. It is because 353dmg is not attainable. In fact 328dps is with 3 magstabs and neutron blaster II's and 5 hobgob's in EFT.
The simple fact is that there was no need for any drone-bay nerfs at all. By taking away insta-recharge you nerf the ability of the drone user to use extra-large drones to do damage without any risk.
ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
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Shereza
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Posted - 2007.12.06 22:53:00 -
[15]
Quote:
28%. I'm betting that's with a totally unreal setup with neutron's and magstabs. It is because 353dmg is not attainable. In fact 328dps is with 3 magstabs and neutron blaster II's and 5 hobgob's in EFT.
Ishkur can potentially pump out about 360 dps. Max skills, 3 light neutrons, T2, with dread guristas anti-matter using 3 cormack's magstabs and 1 each of the RoF and damage rigs, T1, with 5 T2 hobs.
Quote:
The simple fact is that there was no need for any drone-bay nerfs at all. By taking away insta-recharge you nerf the ability of the drone user to use extra-large drones to do damage without any risk.
The only drone bay that got nerfed was the eos' and in all honesty I agree that it didn't really need to be reduced.
With regards to the number/size of drones able to be spat out at once being nerfed, if the ishkur was originally intended to toss out 5 lights but game mechanics let people toss out 3 mediums and 2 lights then yes, it needed to be 'nerfed' to bring it in line with its original design goals. If the ship was originally designed to field 3 mediums and 2 lights then no, it probably didn't need to be 'nerfed.'
That is all, of course, highly dependant on the original design philosophy of the ship. Same as with the myrmidon who's nerf brought it more in line with the in-game description of the ship.
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Flurren
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Posted - 2007.12.06 23:16:00 -
[16]
Compared to say, a jaguar, you lose 1 med slot for the use of 5 more drones... WTH are you complaining about?
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Flurren
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Posted - 2007.12.06 23:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: joshmorris
Originally by: Augeas
Isn't it still the best AF?
But remember our dps can be killed ... especially more easier now so if i was in a minny assualt frig and a ishkur attacked me i could prolly insta pwn its drones ... 3 blasters ent gonna do much then.
3 blasters? The jaguar has 3 autocannons and thats IT. There are no drones to be popped because it has none.
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madaluap
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.12.07 00:05:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shereza
Quote:
28%. I'm betting that's with a totally unreal setup with neutron's and magstabs. It is because 353dmg is not attainable. In fact 328dps is with 3 magstabs and neutron blaster II's and 5 hobgob's in EFT.
Ishkur can potentially pump out about 360 dps. Max skills, 3 light neutrons, T2, with dread guristas anti-matter using 3 cormack's magstabs and 1 each of the RoF and damage rigs, T1, with 5 T2 hobs.
What the ****?
_________________________________________________
Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Shereza
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Posted - 2007.12.07 02:44:00 -
[19]
Quote:
What the ****?
Your right, my bad, I forgot implants.
386 maximum potential DPS out of the ishkur. So the drone DPS is a bit under 26% of the ishkur's maximum potential DPS and the loss of 3 mediums reduces its maximum potential DPS to 91.47% of the old amount.
In the long/extreme run the drop in drone DPS is marginal, but since drone DPS is a flat rate and not a percentage its loss on the low end is a much much bigger rate. Either way the ishkur still lost a much lower percentage of its drone DPS than any other ship that lost drone fielding ability.
Of course the catalyst, a mere T1 destroyer, could coneivably peak at about 503 dps. 
EFT is wonderful for being able to spit out such ridiculous numbers that are theoretically possible while exceedingly improbable.
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.07 02:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shereza
Quote:
What the ****?
Your right, my bad, I forgot implants.
386 maximum potential DPS out of the ishkur. So the drone DPS is a bit under 26% of the ishkur's maximum potential DPS and the loss of 3 mediums reduces its maximum potential DPS to 91.47% of the old amount.
In the long/extreme run the drop in drone DPS is marginal, but since drone DPS is a flat rate and not a percentage its loss on the low end is a much much bigger rate. Either way the ishkur still lost a much lower percentage of its drone DPS than any other ship that lost drone fielding ability.
Of course the catalyst, a mere T1 destroyer, could coneivably peak at about 503 dps.
EFT is wonderful for being able to spit out such ridiculous numbers that are theoretically possible while exceedingly improbable.
You see, that's not simply "improbably", it is inconceivable. It's bull****. There's no point in posting such ridiculous **** all over these forums.
EFT is not wonderful for being able to spit out such ridiculous numbers... EFT is wonderful for giving you an idea how a ship that you fly will perform.
Liang
--
Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Neon Genesis
The Landed Gentry
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Posted - 2007.12.07 03:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shereza
Quote:
What the ****?
Your right, my bad, I forgot implants.
386 maximum potential DPS out of the ishkur. So the drone DPS is a bit under 26% of the ishkur's maximum potential DPS and the loss of 3 mediums reduces its maximum potential DPS to 91.47% of the old amount.
In the long/extreme run the drop in drone DPS is marginal, but since drone DPS is a flat rate and not a percentage its loss on the low end is a much much bigger rate. Either way the ishkur still lost a much lower percentage of its drone DPS than any other ship that lost drone fielding ability.
Of course the catalyst, a mere T1 destroyer, could coneivably peak at about 503 dps.
EFT is wonderful for being able to spit out such ridiculous numbers that are theoretically possible while exceedingly improbable.
Wow tell me more about putting completely ridiculous mods on paper thin ships.
_
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Shereza
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Posted - 2007.12.07 03:24:00 -
[22]
Quote:
You see, that's not simply "improbably", it is inconceivable.
How is it inconceivable?
Quote:
It's bull****.
It's a legitimate value for the absolute maximum output of the ship.
Quote:
There's no point in posting such ridiculous **** all over these forums.
Good thing I'm not.
Quote:
EFT is not wonderful for being able to spit out such ridiculous numbers...
It's better than using a spreadsheet or a calculator or writing my own program for it. That makes it wonderful in my book. Of course I rather like seeing what extremes different aspects of RPGs can be taken to.
Quote:
EFT is wonderful for giving you an idea how a ship that you fly will perform.
I won't argue that, it is quite a useful tool for that as well.
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Shereza
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Posted - 2007.12.07 03:26:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Wow tell me more about putting completely ridiculous mods on paper thin ships.
Well, there's only one more thing to tell.
Build an ishkur like that and you're begging for a ganking while proving that you have way too much money.
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UMEE
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Posted - 2007.12.07 03:48:00 -
[24]
Liang, leave Shereza alone, lol. you seem to foam from your mouth every time he/she posts something
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.07 03:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: UMEE
Liang, leave Shereza alone, lol. you seem to foam from your mouth every time he/she posts something
Nah, I honestly never noticed her before. It's just stupid to try and compare ships with cormack's MFS and say "this one's better".
Oh, the Ishkur nerf didn't hurt, because if you fit Cormack's MFS you only lost 20% of your max DPS!......
wtf kind of logic is that ****?
Honestly I don't ******* care anymore ... this entire thread is useless, and pretty much so are these forums.
I learned what I needed to know from them, but with the advent of EFT we have a bunch of new ******s that insist that you end up with reasonable fits with ******* officer **** stuffed onto the ship.
*******. Useless. ****.
Ah well, I'm glad to know that people actually defend these twits that post 200 billion isk assault frig setups and claim its "balanced" or "justified" or "needed a nerf".
--
Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Shereza
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Posted - 2007.12.07 04:12:00 -
[26]
Quote:
but with the advent of EFT we have a bunch of new ******s that insist that you end up with reasonable fits with ******* officer **** stuffed onto the ship.
Oddly enough, I've never, ever once even put faction gear much less officer or deadspace gear in any ship build I actually suggested or expected people to try.
Heck, I've got one dread guristas CPU booster, 1 amarr navy EANM, and that's about it for faction mods that I've actually used.
Quote:
Ah well, I'm glad to know that people actually defend these twits that post 200 billion isk assault frig setups and claim its "balanced" or "justified" or "needed a nerf".
Which I didn't do at all.
The ishkur, in having 3 medium drones downgraded to 3 light drones, lost roughly 20% of its maximum drone DPS. The best DPS I can actually put out with the ishkur with a build I might consider using, and I probably wouldn't use it since I'd need to use an ACR rig for it, is about 174 raw. 78 of that is 5 T2 hobs. Pre-change I could do 2 hammerheads and 3 hobs for a grand total of 192 DPS with that setup. I lost all of 18 whole raw DPS which would translate to what, 10 effective DPS? 8? Less?
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Edriahn
Gallente
Bulgarian Mafia Squad
Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2007.12.07 06:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
On a more serious note: How about the unnerf all AFs?
Exactly the point.
There are thousands of threads about the AFs. Ishkur is good with 5 lights, doesn't need meds. The problems is in the whole Assault ship class.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.12.07 08:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
On a more serious note: How about the unnerf all AFs?
This.
The Ishkur is still one of the best AFs.
However, AFs suck in general, and their problems, including too much mass, lack of fourth bonus, and fitting gimpedness need to get a fix.
Rifters!
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.12.07 08:28:00 -
[29]
Originally by: SloBones
If I'm not mistaken the Ishkur was made to be a drone frigate... So why is it that you can't launch 3 lights and 2 medium drones? This is stupid I've never heard anyone complain about it being over powered. But now that you can't run 3 lights and 2 mediums the DPS is greatly effected.
I raped a jag with just using light drones... meh its fine i think.
Love to the Assault Frigate! |
Zin Zy
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Posted - 2007.12.07 09:10:00 -
[30]
Its funny how people base their arguments on EFT, since its numbers are possibly off.
I know that Focused Medium Beams have an optimal range of 13km on SISI, but EFT says 14. Its not much of a differance, but what other miscalculations could there be in the program?
Don't get me wrong, EFT is a good program, it's just bugged  .
On topic: Ishkur should never have been able to field crusier size weapons. Just like noone can fit torps or cruiser missiles in their light and heavy launchers anymore. Was funny to fly a Kestral with cruise missiles loaded though.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.12.07 09:25:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Shereza
Quote:
28%. I'm betting that's with a totally unreal setup with neutron's and magstabs. It is because 353dmg is not attainable. In fact 328dps is with 3 magstabs and neutron blaster II's and 5 hobgob's in EFT.
Ishkur can potentially pump out about 360 dps. Max skills, 3 light neutrons, T2, with dread guristas anti-matter using 3 cormack's magstabs and 1 each of the RoF and damage rigs, T1, with 5 T2 hobs.
Quote:
The simple fact is that there was no need for any drone-bay nerfs at all. By taking away insta-recharge you nerf the ability of the drone user to use extra-large drones to do damage without any risk.
The only drone bay that got nerfed was the eos' and in all honesty I agree that it didn't really need to be reduced.
With regards to the number/size of drones able to be spat out at once being nerfed, if the ishkur was originally intended to toss out 5 lights but game mechanics let people toss out 3 mediums and 2 lights then yes, it needed to be 'nerfed' to bring it in line with its original design goals. If the ship was originally designed to field 3 mediums and 2 lights then no, it probably didn't need to be 'nerfed.'
That is all, of course, highly dependant on the original design philosophy of the ship. Same as with the myrmidon who's nerf brought it more in line with the in-game description of the ship.
no mwd = lol
:hellokitty url:
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.12.09 23:31:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Zin Zy
Its funny how people base their arguments on EFT, since its numbers are possibly off.
I know that Focused Medium Beams have an optimal range of 13km on SISI, but EFT says 14. Its not much of a differance, but what other miscalculations could there be in the program?
Don't get me wrong, EFT is a good program, it's just bugged .
On topic: Ishkur should never have been able to field crusier size weapons. Just like noone can fit torps or cruiser missiles in their light and heavy launchers anymore. Was funny to fly a Kestral with cruise missiles loaded though.
wish people stop classifying drones as cruiser or whatever sized weapons, if thats the case we should stop battleships from using light drones.
Back to the point. Of course you cant fit torps and cruise missiles into heavy launchers... thats just idiotic. I guess we need to nerf stealth bombers since they are using battleship sized weapons zomg!
Love to the Assault Frigate! |
Requiescat
Caldari
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2007.12.09 23:39:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Shereza
YARRRR EFT WARRIOR
YOUR MAIN
POST WITH IT
Victory - Honor = Loss |
Minmatar Citizen 4521577
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:07:00 -
[34]
Originally by: joshmorris
Originally by: Augeas
Isn't it still the best AF?
But remember our dps can be killed ... especially more easier now so if i was in a minny assualt frig and a ishkur attacked me i could prolly insta pwn its drones ... 3 blasters ent gonna do much then.
My ship can be killed too. Suddenly your ishkur isn't the omgwtf af pwnall anymore. Welcome to non-gallente eve online.
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Praxis1452
The Bastards
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:12:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 4521577
Originally by: joshmorris
Originally by: Augeas
Isn't it still the best AF?
But remember our dps can be killed ... especially more easier now so if i was in a minny assualt frig and a ishkur attacked me i could prolly insta pwn its drones ... 3 blasters ent gonna do much then.
My ship can be killed too. Suddenly your ishkur isn't the omgwtf af pwnall anymore. Welcome to non-gallente eve online.
hmm so can the ishkur... your point? oh wait that's right your an alt. Post with your main. And lol minmatar have easily the two best and most often used AF's.
ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
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Twin blade
Minmatar
The Triangle
Exa Nation
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:34:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus
Originally by: Zin Zy
Its funny how people base their arguments on EFT, since its numbers are possibly off.
I know that Focused Medium Beams have an optimal range of 13km on SISI, but EFT says 14. Its not much of a differance, but what other miscalculations could there be in the program?
Don't get me wrong, EFT is a good program, it's just bugged .
On topic: Ishkur should never have been able to field crusier size weapons. Just like noone can fit torps or cruiser missiles in their light and heavy launchers anymore. Was funny to fly a Kestral with cruise missiles loaded though.
wish people stop classifying drones as cruiser or whatever sized weapons, if thats the case we should stop battleships from using light drones.
Back to the point. Of course you cant fit torps and cruise missiles into heavy launchers... thats just idiotic. I guess we need to nerf stealth bombers since they are using battleship sized weapons zomg!
Drone's are classed on the same size as weapons and there is nothing to stop a battleship loading up frig or curiser guns.
On topic the ship is still great its not able to wack out curiser size drone's any more you don't see any other ships loading over sized weapons other than SB's that are made to fit them.
Death is great rember where all dying to get there. |
Praxis1452
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2007.12.10 00:43:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Praxis1452 on 10/12/2007 00:43:56
Originally by: Twin blade
Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus
Originally by: Zin Zy
Its funny how people base their arguments on EFT, since its numbers are possibly off.
I know that Focused Medium Beams have an optimal range of 13km on SISI, but EFT says 14. Its not much of a differance, but what other miscalculations could there be in the program?
Don't get me wrong, EFT is a good program, it's just bugged .
On topic: Ishkur should never have been able to field crusier size weapons. Just like noone can fit torps or cruiser missiles in their light and heavy launchers anymore. Was funny to fly a Kestral with cruise missiles loaded though.
wish people stop classifying drones as cruiser or whatever sized weapons, if thats the case we should stop battleships from using light drones.
Back to the point. Of course you cant fit torps and cruise missiles into heavy launchers... thats just idiotic. I guess we need to nerf stealth bombers since they are using battleship sized weapons zomg!
Drone's are classed on the same size as weapons and there is nothing to stop a battleship loading up frig or curiser guns.
On topic the ship is still great its not able to wack out curiser size drone's any more you don't see any other ships loading over sized weapons other than SB's that are made to fit them.
Hmm ishtar is so unbalanced. NERF! except ccp doesn't think so. What other Cruiser whether HAC or not can use BS sized weaponry well?
If Ishtar uses heavy drones and get's bonus why not let ishkur use mediums?
ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
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Ra'ita
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Posted - 2007.12.10 09:16:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You see, that's not simply "improbably", it is inconceivable. It's bull****. There's no point in posting such ridiculous **** all over these forums.
EFT is not wonderful for being able to spit out such ridiculous numbers... EFT is wonderful for giving you an idea how a ship that you fly will perform.
Isn't that what EFT is for? Spitting out ridiculous bull****? OMFG IT'S SO IMBALANCED. NERF EFT.
Seriously though, this is getting old. I don't even fly that much PvP, but the setups and calls for nerfs/buffs have on the forums have really gotten under my skin. Just fly what you can to the best of your abilities. From there, deal.
Module stacking guide |
Wardeneo
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Posted - 2007.12.10 09:40:00 -
[39]
m8 i think u need to stop complaining!
i fly the ishkur, it holds just as many light drones as my rattin drake and holds 4 more drones than any other af, aslo if u get ur drone skills up and use t2 hobs u can get quite a bit of dps, and u can get t2 blasters if u want pure damage or rails if u want to stay ar range... i have taken out allmost all AF's using the ishkur as a blaster gank with drones platform, so all u got to do is edit your setup and get out pvp'in and testin! also if ur goin against a wolf or jag make sure u got 2 webs and allways use a MWD for gank setup it enables u to get in close quick :)
wardeneo
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Kay Brack
Gallente
Superior Unified Ruling Federation
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Posted - 2007.12.10 13:52:00 -
[40]
At AF4 I lost the ability to field 3med 2light. I gained 5 m/3 drone space... I can understand the reality of CCP's new system but think that the least that should happen is that the Ishkur should gain 10 m/3 for a full second flight of smalls at AF4.
More to the point the Ishkur "should" hold 3 flights of smalls with the new system at AF4....
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