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Anita Blonde
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Posted - 2007.12.07 03:48:00 -
[1]
Hey all,
Just wanted to start a discussion about pros and cons of all marauders in PVE and PVP.
So far it looks like that Kronos is overpowered, and Vargur is underpowered , while the rest are somewhere in the middle. Any ideas ? What does everyone think, about various setups for ships, why some ships can be good or bad for what reasons?
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3nkil
The Chocolate Factory
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Posted - 2007.12.07 04:01:00 -
[2]
whats its isk level?
its over a faction battleship!!!!!!
(set to the tune of its over 9000)
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Orin Fatch
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.12.07 04:02:00 -
[3]
OMG PALADIN IS HUGE CAP DEPENDANT AND GOLEM WILL BE NEW ISK FARMING SHIP OF CHOICE!!!eleven!1!!
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There will be bloody mayhem.. |
X99 Z990
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Posted - 2007.12.07 04:04:00 -
[4]
CAPITAL LETTERS MAKE ME EXCITED! I WANNA PALADIN PLEASE!
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me bored
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Posted - 2007.12.07 04:25:00 -
[5]
I STRONGLY AGREE WITH SOME OF THE SENTIMENTS IN THIS THREAD. |
Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.12.07 04:28:00 -
[6]
Their low sensor strength coupled with their extreme price doesn't make them the shipclass of choice for pvp imo.
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HarryManback
Minmatar
Conniving Opportunist
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Posted - 2007.12.07 04:38:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Shiken Kan
Their low sensor strength coupled with their extreme price doesn't make them the shipclass of choice for pvp imo.
Just because your poor doesn't they have an extreme price
Amarr Recon/Electronics Attack Ship/almost Black Ops pilot for auction |
arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2007.12.07 04:39:00 -
[8]
OMG TEH CALDARI 1 WILL PWN THEM ALL.
CAPS=WIN!
Nice hamster! - Mindstar
Thanks!
We wont touch this sig! - Cortes
I lied - Cortes
LIAR! |
Gorthauran
Amarr
Throne of Tragedy
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Posted - 2007.12.07 04:55:00 -
[9]
Comparing the stats on the Paladin to the Abaddon i am left wondering about the validity of the ship. If it is an improvement over the Abaddon(which i don't think it is considering the price) it's very slight. Less Structure, Armor and Shield base(with some nicer resists though). 3 spare highs which are pretty useless for PVE(looting/salvaging with 3 highs on a slow ship is not the best idea...would be inclined to put NOS or something else on there but its not like you need that, dunno). Sensor strength is a joke so the ship has no chance in PvP. Of course you need Marauders at 4-5 to get the benefit from the bonuses too which is a rank 10 skill...I don't know they kinda look like a useless ship for their huge price tag tbh. Still need a hands on though or just wait to hear feedback from ppl that buy them...Stupid T2 infatuation will see me saving for one though i can see it so dumb...
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Shi Mun
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.12.07 05:12:00 -
[10]
why do people always assume that golem is gunna be good for mission running? TBH i think its gunna be crap cos its sig strength sucks. Good luck tryin to kill guristas with that bloody thing...
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The Cake is a lie...
The Cake is a lie...
The Cake is a lie... |
General Minos
Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2007.12.07 05:20:00 -
[11]
Uh, just fit a ECCM module. The Golem does have an extra mid over the Raven and CNR. In the end if you fit the ECCM module it will be even better than a Raven or CNR for missions against Guristas.
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Acinonyx Jubatus
Minmatar
International Multi-Player Consortium
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.12.07 05:23:00 -
[12]
Vargur may not have the best tank, but 50% falloff to large autocannons?
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Thaddeus Brutor
Minmatar
Delictum 23216
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Posted - 2007.12.07 05:55:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Thaddeus Brutor on 07/12/2007 06:02:54
Edited by: Thaddeus Brutor on 07/12/2007 06:01:55
Edited by: Thaddeus Brutor on 07/12/2007 05:55:57
Originally by: General Minos
Uh, just fit a ECCM module. The Golem does have an extra mid over the Raven and CNR. In the end if you fit the ECCM module it will be even better than a Raven or CNR for missions against Guristas.
Maybe for the Golem, but let's look at the Paladin (it's a T2 of the worst BS in the game, but set that aside for now):
It's got 4 lasers with no cap bonus, vs 8 lasers on the Abaddon. Same cap drain as an Apoc with 8 lasers. They both have a 25% damage bonus, and the same size drone bay. 4/7 MID/LO slots, so basically, they will do the exact same damage. Now an Armageddon will outdamage an Abaddon--so it will outdamage a Paladin factoring in drones. But let me get back on track; DPS-wise, the Paladin is the same as the Abaddon, and the lasers drain the exact same cap (though the Paladin should have better cap regen). Move on to the tank:
The Abaddon has better resists, and the same number of LO slots. So without crunching the numbers at all, the Abaddon can fit a better tank. There's an issue of cap to think about, still. The Abaddon has 3 rig slots while the Paladin has 2 (so an extra CCC for the Abaddon), but I see that the Apoc is still going to regen capacitor faster. Not a huge amount faster, but faster (I think about +112cps vs 121cps if I mission fitted it--both will sustain the cap on a 2 lar repper mission setup. So the Abaddon will out-tank the Paladin.
So we have the MIDs left. Both ships have 4 MIDs, with one key difference: The Paladin must fit an ECCM in order to have NORMAL sensor strength, the Abaddon does not. And to top it off, if you don't want to ignore the Paladin's ship bonus, you need to fit a webber. Don't fit a webber? Well there's the problem. I wasn't sitting around talking with my buddies at the coffeehouse about how we need a T2 battleship with a WEBBING bonus. For F's sake--I can put 2 webbers on the Abaddon, and have the same sensor strength and remaining slots as the Paladin! So the bottom line is the Paladin has a ship bonus for a highly, highly questionable module.
So what's the Paladin? An Abaddon, with a little more cap recharge, the same damage output, and a weaker tank--plus 3 HI slots, and a 40km tractor beam range. I don't know what the ship devs smoke, but they got it in Amsterdam.
If there's something I'm missing, I'd love to hear it, but the Paladin it complete trash from where I'm sitting. But I hope the Golem is nice, because the Amarr ship is--I daresay--worse than the Apocalypse. At least it isn't a stupidly overpriced and uninsurable worst battleship in the game.
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FawKa
Gallente
x13
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Posted - 2007.12.07 05:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: General Minos
Uh, just fit a ECCM module. The Golem does have an extra mid over the Raven and CNR. In the end if you fit the ECCM module it will be even better than a Raven or CNR for missions against Guristas.
Wrong
NPC ECM is not player ECM. NPC ECM is just based with a certain percent of jam. Doesnt matter if you have a strength of 1 or 100. (Source: Some dev in the Sisi forum some time ago about the exact same subject).
- - - Signature - - -
For Sisi; Running:
8800 GTX 640mb, 4 GB ram, quad core Q6600, creative x-fi, ASUS striker exstreme MB, windows vista, 1680x1050 fullscreen, |
Forty Three
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.07 06:05:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Forty Three on 07/12/2007 06:05:14
The sensor strength is completely inconsequential for PVE, since it has been repeatedly stated by Devs that NPCs don't actually Jam using their strength against yours, instead they always succeed at jamming, it's just that they only do it once in a while, so a marauder will get jammed by Guristas the same than a 4 ECCMed t1 Battleship.
on the other hand, why people would be looking for even MORE ships for mission running is beyond me, but to each his own I guess. Regarding PVP, it's good that the ships have a disadvantage to be honest, before these ships were even in the drawing board everyone was screaming that they shouldn't be solopwnmobiles. Well, they aren't, and that's a good thing. The relative value of the ship compared to its price is probably NOT going to be in level with t1 battleships (or smaller t2 ships) but that's nothing new.
Oh and regarding the thing about them being too expensive to be used in PVP: first, you don't know what the prices are going to be yet, what with the changes to invention chance of success and whatnot. Second, the people that play this game for PVP spend their money on PVP; therefore, there's no reason to hold back and use cheap ships if you can afford the expensive ones. And trust me, a lot of people can afford to PVP on expensive ships.
43
edit: dammit, ninja'd on the ECCM thing 
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UNITY!!!
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Cryselle
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Posted - 2007.12.07 06:08:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cryselle on 07/12/2007 06:10:33
Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor
But let me get back on track; DPS-wise, the Paladin is the same as the Abaddon, and the lasers drain the exact same cap (though the Paladin should have better cap regen). Move on to the tank:
The Abaddon has better resists, and the same number of LO slots. So without crunching the numbers at all, the Abaddon can fit a better tank.
That's where you made the mistake.
4 Lasers + 100% bonux, vs 8 Lasers = 50% cap usage.
Yes, the Paladin uses 50% less cap than the Abaddon for the same dps.
Now you can use that huge amount to run a dual rep tank permanently.
See it now? Summary: Same DPS as an Abaddon, way stronger tank and no cap issues - the Paladin will be one heck of a mission runner.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr
STK Scientific
Black-Out
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Posted - 2007.12.07 06:09:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Terianna Eri on 07/12/2007 06:12:02
Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor
But let me get back on track; DPS-wise, the Paladin is the same as the Abaddon, and the lasers drain the exact same cap (though the Paladin should have better cap regen).
While I agree with the rest of your post, this part is just wrong.
The Paladin has 4 guns and 150% damage bonus (2.00*1.25), dealing the damage of 10 guns with the capacitor use of 4.
The Abaddon has 8 guns and 25% damage bonus (1.00*1.25), dealing the damage of 10 guns with the capacitor use of 8.
Firing the lasers on the Paladin will drain half as much cap as on the Abaddon simply because the Abaddon has twice as many lasers and the same damage.
I do agree that the web bonus is pretty lame. They should have scrapped the web bonus and kept the tracking bonus. Tracking bonused pulse lasers + unbonused web can hit webbed things just fine, and a tracking bonus is actually useful at the intended range of battleship lasers (>10km)
Edit: Regarding tanking, the Paladin actually tanks marginally better as long as it has cap. It has better base resists (being T2), and a rep amount bonus.
Rep amount bonus = you repair 37.5% more -> your tanking is improved by a multiplier of 1.375
Resist bonus = you take 25% less damage -> your tanking is improved by a multiplier of (1/0.75) = 1.333
So the rep amount bonus is *marginally* better.
I've also said though that they should get rid of the pansy gallente bonus and replace it with a good, old-fashioned 5% bonus to armor resists / level.
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Thaddeus Brutor
Minmatar
Delictum 23216
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Posted - 2007.12.07 06:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor
But let me get back on track; DPS-wise, the Paladin is the same as the Abaddon, and the lasers drain the exact same cap (though the Paladin should have better cap regen).
While I agree with the rest of your post, this part is just wrong.
The Paladin has 4 guns and 150% damage bonus (2.00*1.25), dealing the damage of 10 guns with the capacitor use of 4.
The Abaddon has 8 guns and 25% damage bonus (1.00*1.25), dealing the damage of 10 guns with the capacitor use of 8.
Firing the lasers on the Paladin will drain half as much cap as on the Abaddon simply because the Abaddon has twice as many lasers and the same damage.
I do agree that the web bonus is pretty lame. They should have scrapped the web bonus and kept the tracking bonus. Tracking bonused pulse lasers + unbonused web can hit webbed things just fine, and a tracking bonus is actually useful at the intended range of battleship lasers (>10km)
*slaps forehead* I meant to say it has the same cap drain as the Apocalypse with 8 lasers. I won't correct it so your posts don't look weird. The Abaddon has no difficulty sustaining a 2-LAR tank, so I'm still not seeing any advantage. I acknowledge that the Paladin has better cap regen, but I'm just not seeing the point of it.
From the point of a mission running ship, I see a stupidly expensive, uninsurable Abaddon with a weakened tank, and 3 HIs for two 40km tractors and a salvager. (I figure one tractor to drag the wrecks in, and another to tow a jetcan around?)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.07 06:27:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor
DPS-wise, the Paladin is the same as the Abaddon, and the lasers drain the exact same cap (though the Paladin should have better cap regen).
BZZT ! WRONG !
It has the exact same DPS as an Abaddon at similar skill levels, but HALF the cap usage on lasers.
On the Abaddon, you shoot 8 lasers with a 125% damage mod, on the Paladin you shoot 4 lasters with a 250% damage mod.
Quote:
The Abaddon has better resists, and the same number of LO slots. So without crunching the numbers at all, the Abaddon can fit a better tank.
BZZT ! WRONG AGAIN.
A -25% resists bonus (aprox +33.33% activetank power) is WORSE as a +37.5% repairer effectivenes bonus, for purposes of an active tank.
Not only that, but there's also the extra resists bonuses on exp and kin, which are nothing to sneeze at.
Quote:
There's an issue of cap to think about, still. The Abaddon has 3 rig slots while the Paladin has 2 (so an extra CCC for the Abaddon), but I see that the Apoc is still going to regen capacitor faster. Not a huge amount faster, but faster (I think about +112cps vs 121cps if I mission fitted it--both will sustain the cap on a 2 lar repper mission setup. So the Abaddon will out-tank the Paladin.
My buzzer is getting bored, so, just, ungh, wrong again.
Paladin has a base capacitor of 5625, but since you need BS5 to fly it, that's 7031.25 cap for you right there from the start. Abaddon has only 6375 base cap.
On the recharge front, it's 923.9 sec recharge time for the Paladin, and a whoopin' 1250 sec for the Abaddon.
Even with an extra CCC-II, the Abaddon's base recharge time is barely 1000 sec.
So, more cap, less recharge time even with one less T2 rig, the Paladin spits on the Abaddon's cap recharge rate from a mile above.
Also, it uses up HALF the energy to fire weapons compared to an Abaddon.
Quote:
So we have the MIDs left. Both ships have 4 MIDs, with one key difference: The Paladin must fit an ECCM in order to have NORMAL sensor strength, the Abaddon does not.
Except that in PvE, an ECCM is next to useless : NPC jamming IGNORES sensor strength, and you won't be using a Paladin to fight Guristas anyway, or would you ?
Also, good luck avoiding getting scanned when using drones (and you would have to use drones most of the time, unless you make GOOD USE OF THAT WEB BONUS you consider worthless).
Quote:
If there's something I'm missing, I'd love to hear it, but the Paladin it complete trash from where I'm sitting.
  
C|S|I|N|x. |
Thaddeus Brutor
Minmatar
Delictum 23216
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Posted - 2007.12.07 06:45:00 -
[20]
The "Bzzzt!" is incredibly clever, and demonstrates either your intellectual superiority, or your "douchey" tone as you restate what's already been pointed out.
The Abaddon can sustain the cap needs of 8 megapulses + 2 LARs in a mission just fine, without using charges, so the Paladin can spit all they like, it's not necessary--a point I made already. The cap advantage isn't needed.
As the Abaddon starts with higher resists, it's going to get farther with it's resist modules than the Paladin, but I've also made the concession that the tank will be on par with an Abaddon.
It's still not *better*. And it's sure as hell not approaching the price tag better. As stated already, if you fit a webber on the Paladin, fit one on the Abaddon--you don't need a webbing bonus, just the webber by itself works fine. Feel free the buy the Paladin, but I've not seen anything to show me that it's anything more than a stupidly expensive Abaddon, with some extra HI slots (and a 40km tractor!).
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X99 Z990
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Posted - 2007.12.07 06:54:00 -
[21]
Abaddon without cap boosters would need, 3 cap rigs, 4 cap rechargers and 2 power relays to sustain a dual rep tank and 8 mega pulses. (without damage mods)
Maybe drop a relay if you use better cap ammo?
Abbadon has terrible cap. Its how the ships designed, you cant really argue with it.
The paladin will actually be able to run a tank so that gives it a much better tanking edge than the abbadon.
And as someone already said. The rep bonus is more effective for an active tank than a resistance bonus AND it has better exp and kinetic resistances to start with. I think its a pretty safe trade off for one less rig slot.
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Kyusoath Orillian
Northern Intelligence
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.07 06:58:00 -
[22]
since details of the marauders first emerged i was excited til i saw the stats, i just didn't expect them to be so bad.
they are not all that bad , don't get me wrong , but the time for the skills +isk just doesn't seem worth it. i think they are more for the people that play EFT not Eve.
the other new ships are good tho, but i don't think i'll be aiming for any of them, and i'm hearing the same things from others too.
only thing i want is a T2 myrm, don't care about stats just use the myrm hull.
heavy battlecruiser anyone ? (same gank but more tank ?) |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.12.07 07:09:00 -
[23]
Overheating is the key. 50% less turrets = 50% less heat. Use the spare high slots as heatssync and bring some nanites in case anything goes wrong and you do damage a weapon.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Kzool
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Posted - 2007.12.07 07:28:00 -
[24]
Marauders are elite ships for elite pilots. They are not intended to use by poor and not experienced players, they're end game for those, who is looking every single percantage of advantage over old ships and poor crowd, like those, who use faction stuff to get that advantage with huge pricetag.
And i am the one of those
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.12.07 07:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Pottsey
Overheating is the key. 50% less turrets = 50% less heat. Use the spare high slots as heatssync and bring some nanites in case anything goes wrong and you do damage a weapon.
Now there is an excellent use for those other 3 high slots. Just dump some cheap off-lined modules in em.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.07 07:57:00 -
[26]
Abaddon IS pretty much equal to, if not better than the Paladin.
The repper bonus is effectively only 30%, since noone in his right mind will train Marauders 5. And the T2 resists are in resistances that no competent Amarr runner will tank much. So basically the Abaddon has a better tank.
Same thing kinda applies to damage, Paladin effectively get only +20% while Abaddon gets +25%.
So what the Paladin has over the Abaddon is a web bonus (useless, there is absolutely zero reason to fit a web on an Abaddon so there is none to fit it on a Paladin), a cap bonus (also useless, it has only half the weapon cap use of an Abaddon already, and I have no cap problems on the Abaddon in the first place), and some spare highs (which are also fairly useless, you will never be a good looter/salvager with just 3 slots and no tackle rigs, and NOS are only semi-useful as well since you can fit the ship fine without cap problems in the first place). And of course you need only half the weapons, which can come in handy if you want to officer-pimp it. Otherwise it is simply worse.
The one and only thing that the Paladin will be better at is slowass semi-afk mission running with a permatank. And at least in my humble opinion that is neither a play-style that deserves to be promoted, nor one worth investing a billion or somesuch in the tools for it. But I guess for some people it is just what they want. These guys just don't know what they are missing by making PvE so boring for themselves though.
Personally, the best of the new BSes besides the Kronos is the new Nightmare, I can't wait to test THAT particular beast.
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.12.07 08:06:00 -
[27]
expensive ships, drunk pilots and the new HIC + Elec Attack Frigate= much whining.
All of the Marauders will make excellent gang pvp ships... just fit eccm, have a logistics ship or two on you at all times and enjoy... they're not solo ships, and they will do very well in pve.
And I am scared what they will cost until production ramps up...
Personally, I think they'll shine when used in conjunction with deliberate overloading of the 4 guns with offlined mods to act as heatsinks for Heat. At that point, they'll do massive dps and be quite sustainable in conjunction with the err... rep 'paste' or whatever it's called to repair heat damage in-flight.
Still, lol at the first pilot to lose one because he forgot about the sensor strength and got perma-jammed by a griffin or a light ecm-drone ;)
Save EveTV, please.
Sign to ask CCP to fund EveTV! |
Dromololla
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Posted - 2007.12.07 08:15:00 -
[28]
If you compare abaddon with paladin in terms of cap and paladin with its 25% cap bonus and less cap usage loose this comparison - you have to learn little more in EVE.
Same goes to tank abilities.
Same goes to PVP abilities.
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Dreadpilot Roberts
Viper Squad
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.07 09:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor
The "Bzzzt!" is incredibly clever, and demonstrates either your intellectual superiority, or your "douchey" tone as you restate what's already been pointed out.
The Abaddon can sustain the cap needs of 8 megapulses + 2 LARs in a mission just fine, without using charges, so the Paladin can spit all they like, it's not necessary--a point I made already. The cap advantage isn't needed.
As the Abaddon starts with higher resists, it's going to get farther with it's resist modules than the Paladin, but I've also made the concession that the tank will be on par with an Abaddon.
It's still not *better*. And it's sure as hell not approaching the price tag better. As stated already, if you fit a webber on the Paladin, fit one on the Abaddon--you don't need a webbing bonus, just the webber by itself works fine. Feel free the buy the Paladin, but I've not seen anything to show me that it's anything more than a stupidly expensive Abaddon, with some extra HI slots (and a 40km tractor!).
where did u read in the description that palladin is a mission ship ?
sick and tired of ppl whining
I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ? |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.07 09:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
noone in his right mind will train Marauders 5
What ?!?
Marauders 5 will be the first thing to do for any self-respecting mission-runner.
Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor
The Abaddon can sustain the cap needs of 8 megapulses + 2 LARs in a mission just fine, without using charges, so the Paladin can spit all they like, it's not necessary--a point I made already. The cap advantage isn't needed.
The Paladin will be able to sustain the cap needs of Multifreq TACHYONS plus tank.
And not need an AB since it won't have to move, with an optimal of 60+ km.
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