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Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Cryselle Edited by: Cryselle on 07/12/2007 06:10:33 Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor But let me get back on track; DPS-wise, the Paladin is the same as the Abaddon, and the lasers drain the exact same cap (though the Paladin should have better cap regen). Move on to the tank: The Abaddon has better resists, and the same number of LO slots. So without crunching the numbers at all, the Abaddon can fit a better tank. That's where you made the mistake. 4 Lasers + 100% bonux, vs 8 Lasers = 50% cap usage. Yes, the Paladin uses 50% less cap than the Abaddon for the same dps. Now you can use that huge amount to run a dual rep tank permanently. See it now? Summary: Same DPS as an Abaddon, way stronger tank and no cap issues - the Paladin will be one heck of a mission runner. No, in fact, for missions, and that's the mean thing they'll be used for, the Paladin get more or less +10% DPS than the Abaddon. Why? Because with the cap saved on it's weapons, and much better capacitor (faster regen+cap bonus), you can easily get 3 damage mods on it, while having a very good single-rep tank, and all of it sustainable. None of the Abaddon setups I saw has more than 2 damage mods. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
vostok Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2007.12.07 10:02:00 - [32] Well addressing the original question... i don't think the kronos is overpowered, because it deals slightly more turret damage than a megathron and slightly less drone damage... anyways, you'll find it all comes out in the wash and it will be an awesome mission ship (lets be realistic now, it IS a mission ship, pvp ships don't come with a salvage bonus) and i cant wait to get one. addressing the paladin vs abaddon thing going on here... firstly, paladin is a mission ship, get over it. paladin frankly outclasses an abaddon. lets forget about the web bonus for a min here... paladin gets an extra 3 high slots, much better capacitor, same damage bonus, repair bonus, cap bonus on guns and a tractor beam bonus as well as a huge cargohold for salvaging missions. now i dont really want to know how many cap mods people put on their poor abaddons to make it run 8 megapulse and 2 lar2 because when i looked at the abaddon for a fitting, i couldn't get dual heavy pulse lasers and 2 lar 2 to permarun and thats with 3 ccc, 4 cap recharger II and a cap power relay. now considering that the paladin has that much more capacitor going around than the abaddon, it is also faster than the abaddon and can likely run an AB on its meds very comfortably. if you guys wanted a real problem then consider that the golem does LESS damage than a cnr, but people will still use the golem because its probably going to be cheaper than a deadspace fit cnr and it can salvage where the cnr cannot. just wait a little while for the prices to come out at around stupid billion isk and then wait a bit more for them to come down to numbers most people in eve can imagine.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.07 10:13:00 - [33] Originally by: Forty Three the people that play this game for PVP spend their money on PVP; therefore, there's no reason to hold back and use cheap ships if you can afford the expensive ones. Originally by: HarryManback Just because your poor doesn't they have an extreme price ISK gained vs ISK lost is more important then your K/B ratio unless you really like funding yourself with GTCs or having a mission-running alt in high-sec. Rifters!
Shafty Brotherhood of the Phoenix Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.12.07 10:53:00 - [34] TBH I might just buy the min one to see how nice the wrecking shots are, then lose it folishly whole ratting i expect.
homunculi	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:19:00 - [35] Golem needs a 5% rof or kin dmg bonus to be good for lvl 4s, as it is now cnr is simply better.
Helen coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Leandro Salazar since noone in his right mind will train Marauders 5. Sounds like a bet I'll take. Although I gotta say between the new Nightmare and the Paladin its a tough one, think I'll just get both and run comparisons. First pod pilot to lose a Mothership in EvE... err woo
NoNah	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:32:00 - [37] Ironic, a thread about Marauders in general and what, 1 post not talking about the Paladin? Imho, the Paladin is neat as a Marauder, not worth the effort if you do a half-arsed attempt at flying it(It's not a caldarian vessel that requires a month from character creation to fly decently) but gives some handy bonuses if you spend the time specializing. The Kronos while being nice, is a t2 version of the megathron, the probably worst PvE BS in the gallente fleet. My subjective opinion ofc. Not the price efficiancy of the domi, no drone bonus, and not the firepower and tanking of the hyperion. While nice, the tracking bonus is nowhere near as good in PvE as PvP. Stil... the Kronos is great. It gets the tracking bonus of the mega, the tanking and damage of the Hyperion and a web bonus on top. However... The incentive to train level 5 here is somewhat lower than it is for the Paladin. Fact is I personally will most likely stick to the domi and spend my time training Black Ops V for Gallente. The Vargur.. Love it. Takes the good parts of both Mael and Tempest, and turns it into a luvmobile. Will it be the PvE king of EVE? No. Will it be the PvP Queen of EVE? No. But it will be hawt as hell. Fall-off bonuses are like tiny orgasms every time they're read. Worth it? Well... it's a huge investment, both SP and iskwise. To much money for me in this case, but I still love it. Even more so as I probably wouldn't be flying it until I had Marauders V and well... a huge investment seeing how many skills I allready want to max on a minmatar alt. The Golem. 8 Launchers, coupled with a 33% dps bonus to torps, 30km effective range on t1 torps, a tp bonus and explosion velocity bonus to deal the damage even to small BS and BC's. Drones to eat frigates. Tractor beams that reach out just out of the optimal range of the ship. What's not to love about the ship? Well range. There's hardly any point in going for a ship that is more than 25km off, unless you carry javs as switch or go with Cruise and it's extreme range. If you spend the time to read up on the mission and fit accordingly, you'll have a dreamboat allready at Marauders IV. Sadly, illdesigned imho - to little comitment and to lil incentive to specialize(Marauders V). A shield tank with a +30% boost bonus tanks any spawn or mission easily(especially onsidering the gear appropiate for a ship in the priceclass) and not sure how many will value a 5.6-5.7% boost on TP's enough to spend another month++ training Maruaders V. In short, when it comes to design I'd like to put them: Paladin > Vargur > Kronos > Golem and when it comes to PvE abilities Golem > Kronos > Paladin > Vargur. Incentive to train at all... Golem > Paladin > Vargur > Kronos Postcount: 53281
Cryselle	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:38:00 - [38] Originally by: NoNah In short, when it comes to design I'd like to put them: Paladin > Vargur > Kronos > Golem and when it comes to PvE abilities Golem > Kronos > Paladin > Vargur. Incentive to train at all... Golem > Paladin > Vargur > Kronos I disagree with the PvE assessment. The Paladin is very close to the Golem - the "underrated" Web Bonus, brings any pesky frigate to an almost immediate stop while webbed - and don't forget the instant damage with high alpha compared to the Golem. Besides the limitation of only having EM/Therm damage (besides drones) the Paladin is very close to the Golem, def. better than the Kronos imho
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:43:00 - [39] Imo especially the paladin isn't worth it at all as you're better off with a nightmare which is also easier to get into and fly. Additionally nightmare hull >> apoc hull.
Princess Xenia	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:45:00 - [40] Overheating mods make Paladin > Abaddon... 3 high slot 'heat sinks' (OMG dont tell me you were going to fit fracking tractor beams????) = longer overheat = more dps and tank = win
Princess Xenia	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:46:00 - [41] Originally by: Shiken Kan Imo especially the paladin isn't worth it at all as you're better off with a nightmare which is also easier to get into and fly. Additionally nightmare hull >> apoc hull. Paladin will EVENTUALLY be cheaper than Nightmare... Paladin is an armor tanker...
NoNah	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:49:00 - [42] Originally by: Cryselle Originally by: NoNah In short, when it comes to design I'd like to put them: Paladin > Vargur > Kronos > Golem and when it comes to PvE abilities Golem > Kronos > Paladin > Vargur. Incentive to train at all... Golem > Paladin > Vargur > Kronos I disagree with the PvE assessment. The Paladin is very close to the Golem - the "underrated" Web Bonus, brings any pesky frigate to an almost immediate stop while webbed - and don't forget the instant damage with high alpha compared to the Golem. Besides the limitation of only having EM/Therm damage (besides drones) the Paladin is very close to the Golem, def. better than the Kronos imho Hmm, you're probably right. However it takes the Paladin Marauders V to pass the Kronos, imho. While nice the last level of tanking bonus is not as vital as the damage bonus to a mission runner. The Kronos gets its 25% right away, the Paladin needs two months. I rarely see the "instant damage" argument applying to PvE as you know pretty much how well they tank. And can stop firing once they're dead, wether they know it or not. Postcount: 589262
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:52:00 - [43] I think Kronus will be the only one that realy ends up in PVP. The Ship combines the Trackingbonus of the Megathron with the Tank Bonus of the Hyperion. Since you have the spare CPU of 3 less Turrets compared the the standard Mega and more room for Cap Boosters it will have a deacend advantage. But it only will count if you fitt full Faction Fitting because of the poor Base HP of the Ship you need a real good Aktivetank. Even then a Navy Mega or a Vindicator got extra Slots and far more HP. It will depend on the Pricetag in the End only if the Ship will be avaidable for under 500 M it will enter PVP in a deacend scale. The Paladin need something that stands out i agree, mayby a 125 m¦ Dronebay like the Gedon or the Web Bonus switched to Optimal Range or even better a ROF Bonus. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
vostok Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:10:00 - [44] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Cryselle Originally by: NoNah In short, when it comes to design I'd like to put them: Paladin > Vargur > Kronos > Golem and when it comes to PvE abilities Golem > Kronos > Paladin > Vargur. Incentive to train at all... Golem > Paladin > Vargur > Kronos I disagree with the PvE assessment. The Paladin is very close to the Golem - the "underrated" Web Bonus, brings any pesky frigate to an almost immediate stop while webbed - and don't forget the instant damage with high alpha compared to the Golem. Besides the limitation of only having EM/Therm damage (besides drones) the Paladin is very close to the Golem, def. better than the Kronos imho Hmm, you're probably right. However it takes the Paladin Marauders V to pass the Kronos, imho. While nice the last level of tanking bonus is not as vital as the damage bonus to a mission runner. The Kronos gets its 25% right away, the Paladin needs two months. I rarely see the "instant damage" argument applying to PvE as you know pretty much how well they tank. And can stop firing once they're dead, wether they know it or not. well im going to be (hopefully) flying the kronos on my main and the paladin on my alt, i will almost certainly train marauders 5, its only a rank 10 compared to BS at 8 and if i ever decide to cross train will already be done for when i get min BS 5. :) oh and btw i fly the megathron for missions and i think its frankly better than the hype (hype has a dreadful capacitor, not enough grid and not enough low slots which practically means an enforced single rep tank which to me means deadspace if you want to survive a halfway tricky mission)
Serenity Black	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:45:00 - [45] i think the golem is far away from being the uber pve boat. after the torp change, i lke it for pvp, there is no reason to fit torps for missions anymore. u switch to cruise but then u also end with one useless bonus, the tp one like the amarr one with web bonus. tanking is no really a problem even in a normal raven, so not much of an advatage. that leave u with less damage than a cnr so people will use the cnr for pve and salvage with a destroyer alos for pvp its not the ship of choice. because u have fiiting problems for the spare highslots, neuts, and the same sig problems as all the other marauders. so here is also the cnr better, but normally everytime a raven is better because u are not directly primary so i dont see a reason to fly a marauder at all atm
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:52:00 - [46] ôsince noone in his right mind will train Marauders 5.ö I am. The only skills on my to do list are Marauders 1 to 5. ôThe Kronos while being nice, is a t2 version of the megathron, the probably worst PvE BS in the gallente fleet.ö The Kronos should be the highest damage battleships by far Gallente wise. It will do far more then a hyper or megathron once you factor in heat. Makeing it a very nice PvE ship. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.07 13:15:00 - [47] The Abaddon has 7969 capacitor with a 937.5 second recharge time. The Paladin has 8789 capacitor with a 692.9 second recharge time. Saying they have the same cap, is disingenious.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.07 17:09:00 - [48] Quote: edit: to the guy above me commenting on missioning and expensive setups for semi-afk mission runnug? I'll just point out that most serious missioners have setup WELL over the 2-3 bill mark, plus 1 bill ship. If I lost my deadspace-Domi, I'd have to go have a cry ;( ISK is everywhere, so cost is relative to utility in PVE or PVP. Is my Domi 30x better than a t2 fitted Domi? Nope. Does it cost 4 bill? Yup. Price of admission for that incremental increase, tbh. Yeah of course. I own 4 mult-billion setup mission ships myself. But I hope that most people who run these ships actually play the game rather than semi-afking it. I enjoy every shot that my Abaddon's Selynne Tachyons spew forth anyway. Originally by: vostok Well addressing the original question... now i dont really want to know how many cap mods people put on their poor abaddons to make it run 8 megapulse and 2 lar2 because when i looked at the abaddon for a fitting, i couldn't get dual heavy pulse lasers and 2 lar 2 to permarun and thats with 3 ccc, 4 cap recharger II and a cap power relay. My Abaddon usually fits three or four cap mods: A heavy cap injector and 3 CCC rigs, and sometimes a cap recherger or relay in a spare slot. And if you need two LARs, you fail at professional mission running. I barely need one tbh. A well fit cap injected gank Abaddon has no problems running Amarr missions at all, and unless you have Marauder 5 a Paladin will do slightly worse actually when you do the gank approach that yields the best results. Now if it had kept the tracking bonus, things would be quite different. As it is, the Paladin is an improvement over the Abaddon really only for lazy and unimaginative people, and those loonies who run missions against Guristas or Angels with lasers. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
vostok Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:02:00 - [49] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: vostok Well addressing the original question... now i dont really want to know how many cap mods people put on their poor abaddons to make it run 8 megapulse and 2 lar2 because when i looked at the abaddon for a fitting, i couldn't get dual heavy pulse lasers and 2 lar 2 to permarun and thats with 3 ccc, 4 cap recharger II and a cap power relay. My Abaddon usually fits three or four cap mods: A heavy cap injector and 3 CCC rigs, and sometimes a cap recherger or relay in a spare slot. And if you need two LARs, you fail at professional mission running. I barely need one tbh. A well fit cap injected gank Abaddon has no problems running Amarr missions at all, and unless you have Marauder 5 a Paladin will do slightly worse actually when you do the gank approach that yields the best results. Now if it had kept the tracking bonus, things would be quite different. As it is, the Paladin is an improvement over the Abaddon really only for lazy and unimaginative people, and those loonies who run missions against Guristas or Angels with lasers. i was referring to a post made earlier by somebody who stated that their abaddon fitting could sustain 2 lar2 and 8 megapulses WITHOUT CHARGES and i was merely commenting on how bad that fitting must have been... for your benefit here it is again: Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor The "Bzzzt!" is incredibly clever, and demonstrates either your intellectual superiority, or your "douchey" tone as you restate what's already been pointed out. The Abaddon can sustain the cap needs of 8 megapulses + 2 LARs in a mission just fine, without using charges, so the Paladin can spit all they like, it's not necessary--a point I made already. The cap advantage isn't needed. As the Abaddon starts with higher resists, it's going to get farther with it's resist modules than the Paladin, but I've also made the concession that the tank will be on par with an Abaddon. It's still not better. And it's sure as hell not approaching the price tag better. As stated already, if you fit a webber on the Paladin, fit one on the Abaddon--you don't need a webbing bonus, just the webber by itself works fine. Feel free the buy the Paladin, but I've not seen anything to show me that it's anything more than a stupidly expensive Abaddon, with some extra HI slots (and a 40km tractor!).
IceCreamMonster	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:15:00 - [50] What's a "professional missionrunner"? You are playing the same computer game that I am playing, right?
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:18:00 - [51] Edited by: Rialtor on 07/12/2007 20:19:37 There's really no need to Upgrade to the Paladin at all. Anyone that thinks so has never flown an Abaddon through level IV missions correctly. As long as you have decent skills in an Abaddon the cap issue is not relevant. The Abaddon destroys missions so quickly, and resists are so good that you do not need to continuously run the Rep. Through managing your mods correctly the Abaddon can cap sustain in any and all level IV mission. If you're careful enough about Aggro, it can do any mission on a single LAR II. They do the same damage. While their bonuses make them tank differently (resist tank vs. rep tank), it is comparable. So no real bonus there. The only bonus is the extra high slots, which is debatable. While in missions you can pull all wrecks closer with the 40k tractors, so your salvager doesn't have to move at all. But with the current "Volume" nerf, looting might not be worth it anymore. Cap is the advantage the Paladin has over the Abaddon, as far as level IV missions go, it is irrelevant. If you think triple the price is worth some tractors, you're mistaken. You can fit your Abaddon with Faction stuff and make it better for the same cost if not less. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Apollyonn Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:31:00 - [52] After evaluating the Raven Navy Issue and Golem, I have to say I think I'd rather fly the Navy Raven. It has superior CPU, PG, and only 50 less calibration. It has another rig slot, 1 more high slot, 1 more low slot, and only 1 less medium slot. It has more HP, slightly worse resistances in only 2 fields (if I remember correctly). Granted, the Golem fills a different niche than the CNR. I personally await the review from people who buy them first. My personal problem with them, it seems to me that they require a ridiculous amount of time, effort, and resources to make them a viable option (both on the invention and building end and on the flying end). Judging by the price estimates I have seen so far, it seems that the ship might be too overpriced to make it worthwhile. However, considering it does not seem like something most people will PvP in, and seeing as how most people who get one will know how to keep it alive in missions, I would bet that most people who do buy them, will not have to replace them with the frequency a PvPer would have to replace ships. Just my 2cents.
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:44:00 - [53] Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 07/12/2007 20:44:32 Originally by: Apollyonn After evaluating the Raven Navy Issue and Golem, I have to say I think I'd rather fly the Navy Raven. It has superior CPU, PG, and only 50 less calibration. It has another rig slot, 1 more high slot, 1 more low slot, and only 1 less medium slot. Do realise that all that extra CPU and Grid on a CNR is used almost exclusively for the launchers and that a Golem has effectively 11 High-slots. it has 4 Launchers, which put out as much damage as 8. (the 100% damage role bonus) and 3 utility slots. The CNR will probably be cheaper, especially in the short term though.
Epix Riker	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:55:00 - [54] "Yet despite this versatility, the Marauder is not without weaknesses: reduced sensor strength leaves her vulnerable to EW attacks, and no matter what her defense configuration is, she cannot withstand focused fire for long." http://www.eve-online.com/Trinity/features.html Cannot withstand focused fire for long = NOT A F***ING TANK SHIP!!! I rest my case
Nu Wa	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:12:00 - [55] Originally by: Epix Riker "Yet despite this versatility, the Marauder is not without weaknesses: reduced sensor strength leaves her vulnerable to EW attacks, and no matter what her defense configuration is, she cannot withstand focused fire for long." http://www.eve-online.com/Trinity/features.html Cannot withstand focused fire for long = NOT A F***ING TANK SHIP!!! I rest my case hahaha
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:13:00 - [56] Originally by: Mr Friendly All of the Marauders will make excellent gang pvp ships This is a sand castle trying to stop a tsunami in ships and modules, but this assesment isn't really worth anything because all it acknowledges is that the ships have many flaws and arn't good enough to hold their own without a miriad of support vessels to take care of their every weakness. Everything makes a good gang vessel if we're talking about a co-ordinated attack using many ships against a less organised force. The question is whether it's weaknesses are enough of a crutch to the gang that a numerically equal group of players flying more suitable vessels will prevail. _
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:40:00 - [57] Originally by: Pottsey Overheating is the key. 50% less turrets = 50% less heat. Use the spare high slots as heatssync and bring some nanites in case anything goes wrong and you do damage a weapon. hush
FireMox	Posted - 2007.12.07 22:10:00 - [58] Edited by: FireMox on 07/12/2007 22:11:25 Edited by: FireMox on 07/12/2007 22:10:53 It all depends of what setyp you prefer. Abaddon have the same damage output like Paladin. absolutely the same. the difference is comming from the tank. But I`m not using tank at all. My abaddon don`t have tank. and I`m doing all blood/sansha missions without exceptions, even WC. so if I don`t need tank ..then why I should pay for Paladin ? so it all depends of your personal way of playing. my moto is the gank tank is better than just tank :) and with all high-end officers gank setyp missions are really more fun. (damn alts..It`s Yarlan Zey`s alt)
Kate Nexus	Posted - 2007.12.07 22:29:00 - [59] The marauders can only add 2 rigs instead of 3. Golem vs Navy Raven -Golem has some extra resists. -Golem has +1 mid slot -Golem has slightly better cap regen/cap -Golem has 1 more bay worth of damage (7 vs 8) -Golem is better at hitting smaller ships -Golem saves some PG/CPU on less missile bays. -CNR has +1 rig for extra CCC, nullifying Golems cap advantage -CNR has more shields, armor, and hull -CNR will probably be cheaper -CNR has better scan strength -CNR has 25% ROF bonus, nullifying Golems damage advantage, CNR becomes better at killing BS -CNR has more CPU and more powergrind for fitting, nullifying Golem's reduced missile fittings advantage. -CNR is much less skill intensive They're pretty close for missions. I kind of thought the Golem would be a lot better with the extra months of skill training it needs and because it's a marauder T2 BS.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.07 22:46:00 - [60] Originally by: Acinonyx Jubatus Vargur may not have the best tank, but 50% falloff to large autocannons? I'd sex a Vargur to death if I could fly one because of that. D-F-C recruitment closed

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