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Frivolous war declarations are tedious, and make Eve disenchanting.

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Multi Point	Posted - 2007.12.07 06:53:00 - [1] In the real world, the consequences of war are quite harsh. In Eve, there are very few and they are benign at worst. What if a corp had to pay an exorbitant amount of isk, say 50% of their wealth, to declare war on another corp, unless the target corp was a willing combatant? What if players were penalized by death, say, unable to participate for 12 or 24 hours after being ship-killed, or 48 hours after podding? Why not make Eve war an unpleasant business--just like they have allowed Eve to be populated by denizens who are able to lie, cheat, steal, kill, become wealthy, prosper, and have fun while doing it--make war fun but at the cost of a heavier-than-normal price?
Minee Ze Gallente PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.12.07 06:59:00 - [2] war in eve is easy, just turn it into a isk fight he-who-loses-more-isk-looses-the-war. just fly frigates and cruisers, they will lose more isk going against that. -Minee Ze You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war. Albert Einstein
Dirk Magnum FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:11:00 - [3] Wars are hell on the families and friends of the thousands of crewmembers of the ships that get lost in these fights between pod pilot organizations, fortunately that doesn't really matter since they're all NPCs. When you look at it in that context though the severity of Eve wars is quite high. Now, as for making wars harsher on the real players controlling their precious internet spaceships, I say that wars can be extremely taxing on some parties. Last week BoB flipped sovereignty on a certain system in the south, a gateway to Empire used by IAC and RA logistics and the starting point on their jump bridge path to their deeper 0.0 HQ. We destroyed what I will call countless millions in POS equipment and ships, and shut down this route of logistical support for two major alliances. I guarantee you there's a lot of people who would call that a fairly harsh consequence of war. Now, yes I brag about BoB, but similar victories have been won by numerous corps and alliances in the history of Eve.
Leora Nomen Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:12:00 - [4] In EVE generally conflict and competition between players is encouraged. Increasing the penalty for war decs would discourage wars and conflict among players, and this is not what the developers of the game aimed for. Many players like the fact that it is a PVP game, that favors those who can fight back or defend themselves effectively, and they would protest such changes. When you enter player corporation it is assumed that you understand all the risks and feel you're ready for them. If you are an industrial player who doesn't really care about combat you're supposed to enter a corporation with pvp pilots who would look out for your interests. If you are a pvp pilot you should be ready for a war dec at any time and prepared to lose multiple ships and pods. If you don't like either arrangement you can stay in NPC corporation. Originally by CCP Wrangler: EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for. guide to game time codes
Multi Point	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:16:00 - [5] It cost money to wage war, even in Eve. If a corp had to put up 50% of their wealth, they better be able to wage war on what's left successfully, or logistically replace that wealth. They had better be able to lose pilots for a day or so and still conduct war. And so on... I'm just suggesting that war should be akin to real life like other Eve functions, such as the market.
Leora Nomen Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:33:00 - [6] Originally by: Multi Point It cost money to wage war, even in Eve. If a corp had to put up 50% of their wealth, they better be able to wage war on what's left successfully, or logistically replace that wealth. They had better be able to lose pilots for a day or so and still conduct war. And so on... I'm just suggesting that war should be akin to real life like other Eve functions, such as the market. Warring parties already lose a lot of their wealth by losing ships and POS. The enemy can attack your logistics anywhere. In 0.0 POS go down and stations switch hands - in low sec and empire space once again POS go down and you can get camped such that you wouldn't be able to do anything, mine, rat, or run missions on your character. So already a lot of wealth and time get lost in the process and no corporation would enter war unless it was prepared for it financially. As for losing pilots and making people be unable to pvp for a day, that's going to upset a lot of CCP's customers ... guide to game time codes
Cipher7 VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:58:00 - [7] Wardecs weed out corps that don't deserve to exist. Also corps who take advantage of newbies by charging a tax yet take no steps to provide security, guidance, infrastructure, or access to 0.0 If another corp is wardeccing and the corp has no way of defending itself, the CEO of that corp is the griefer. In any healthy corp, a wardec is merely a different operational mode.
Jolnas Arbiter	Posted - 2007.12.07 08:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Cipher7 Wardecs weed out corps that don't deserve to exist. Also corps who take advantage of newbies by charging a tax yet take no steps to provide security, guidance, infrastructure, or access to 0.0 If another corp is wardeccing and the corp has no way of defending itself, the CEO of that corp is the griefer. In any healthy corp, a wardec is merely a different operational mode. Although I'll disagree with the person being a griefer I merely have this to say. I was a newbie corp CEO (with a respectable tax rate) and we got war decced... everyone left but the corp kept going... I recruited new people and we moved on. This is the way of eve... oh and btw please post with your main so we can war dec you ;)
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.12.07 08:48:00 - [9] Originally by: Jolnas Arbiter Edited by: Jolnas Arbiter on 07/12/2007 08:26:32 I fail to see why newbie corps owned by newbies are automaticly griefers. This especially coming from a smash alliance member He's a griefer in that his ineptitude ruined the gameplay enjoyment of the people in his corp, and caused them loss of in game assets. He's just not a deliberate griefer because he ruide his friend's game simply by not acting when he should. War decs are the game's way of saying only good corps thrive in EVE and a good corp is made up of people who can fight as well as people who can mine and manufacture. Or who knows both kinds of people and can fall back on them in time of need. A corp that lacks added value has no right to exist and war decs simply make sure that the corp is actually ousted from the game.
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.12.07 08:52:00 - [10] And to the OP, while i appreciate your intent to make EVE even harsher and more dependent on relying on a well organized corp to thrive, your idea has a flaw that may very well make it miss it's point of forcing corps to organize themselves even better. It may discourage war decs in high sec altogether, making the game actually safer for pure industrial corps that for whatever reason refuse to hire mercenaries or employ fighters to protect their haulers and miners. I know you would not want such a corp to survive in this game, so i suggest that you rethink the ways in which you can make war more ruinous to the people struck by it without risking making non consentual PvP less likely.
Magnus Nordir Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Shanur And to the OP, while i appreciate your intent to make EVE even harsher and more dependent on relying on a well organized corp to thrive, your idea has a flaw that may very well make it miss it's point of forcing corps to organize themselves even better. It may discourage war decs in high sec altogether, making the game actually safer for pure industrial corps that for whatever reason refuse to hire mercenaries or employ fighters to protect their haulers and miners. I know you would not want such a corp to survive in this game, so i suggest that you rethink the ways in which you can make war more ruinous to the people struck by it without risking making non consentual PvP less likely. Please explain why a purely industrial/mining corp doesn't "deserve" to survive. Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Magnus Nordir Originally by: Shanur And to the OP, while i appreciate your intent to make EVE even harsher and more dependent on relying on a well organized corp to thrive, your idea has a flaw that may very well make it miss it's point of forcing corps to organize themselves even better. It may discourage war decs in high sec altogether, making the game actually safer for pure industrial corps that for whatever reason refuse to hire mercenaries or employ fighters to protect their haulers and miners. I know you would not want such a corp to survive in this game, so i suggest that you rethink the ways in which you can make war more ruinous to the people struck by it without risking making non consentual PvP less likely. Please explain why a purely industrial/mining corp doesn't "deserve" to survive. Because they refuse to defend their assets when confronted with hostility but instead choose to whine on the forums about high sec piracy and suicide ganks. And as mentioned by the OP, EVE is supposed to be a hostile world where posessions have to be fought over. An industrial corp certainly has a right to exists if they recognise that they are dependent on fighters for their protection and take measures to employ those in operations where they expect to be attacked. I challenge you to find a thriving prosperous industrial corp that exists more than a year that neither has diplomatic ties with a military corp, makes up the logistical backbone of an alliance that also contains dedicated combat corps, has an agreement with mercenaries or whose pilots are actually "carebears with teeth" who in times of need simply switch to effective fleets of low cost PvP ships.
Cipher7 VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Jolnas Arbiter This especially coming from a smash alliance member Peoke might be illiterate but at least his corp is good for something other than ripping off newbs. A corp should provide its members with SOMEthing. Either access to good rocks, or organized gangs to kill other players. A newb CEO is unable to provide ANY of these things since by definition he is also a newb, hence he is collecting tax and providing nothing in return.
Jolnas Arbiter	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Jolnas Arbiter This especially coming from a smash alliance member Peoke might be illiterate but at least his corp is good for something other than ripping off newbs. A corp should provide its members with SOMEthing. Either access to good rocks, or organized gangs to kill other players. A newb CEO is unable to provide ANY of these things since by definition he is also a newb, hence he is collecting tax and providing nothing in return. Infact I believe that any CEO of any corp that doesn't provide them acess to one of the top 5 alliances is actually a griefer. This pretty much limits all newbies to Goonfleet
Cipher7 VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Jolnas Arbiter Infact I believe that any CEO of any corp that doesn't provide them acess to one of the top 5 alliances is actually a griefer. This pretty much limits all newbies to Goonfleet Nah why would they wanna do that when they can join your corp and mine Veld in exchange for %10.
Cipher7 VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Jolnas Arbiter Talking along those lines... VTIL tells newbies to join a corp that they didn't apply for and maintains a lot of inactive members in the roster deliberately to keep up numbers? Is this griefing? I don't know but it sure as hell is false advertising. Oh I see now, you washed out of our academy corp. Bitter much?
Daeva Vios PhaseShifter Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.07 13:52:00 - [17] EVE is a harsh environment. It is designed to be that way. As such, wars are very easy to declare and maintain. EVE is a PVP game, first and foremost. You do not have to actively participate in PVP. You can remain in an NPC corp and avoid wars entirely. Choosing not to remain in the NPC corps means you are willing to take the risk of being the target of a wardec for the benefits a player corp provides. Let me say again. EVE is a PVP game, first and foremost. If you do not want to play a PVP game, do not play EVE. CCP designed it this way, they have said repeatedly that this is the way it's meant to be, and they have stuck with that through a nearly daily stream of forum whines about how wardecs are unfair since the game was released. In my opinion, this is part of what makes the game great.
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.12.07 14:38:00 - [18] If you went by wealth, to play Devil's Advocat, then the CEO pockets the Corp's Wallet, War Deccs, and then puts it back when done. So this way while the War Dec is being declared the Corp is Broke. As for there being no dire consequences...That depends I suppose. You could bore your enemy to death, some would say that can be a horrible fate worse than any death you could give them (making them pay for nothing). However, even in this day and age if a very technologically superior force rolls in on a weak little postage stamp country they are going to annihilate them with little to no loss or worry on their end. Same goes for EvE, get a group of older better fit characters and go annihilate some weak pathetic Corp because you know you will win without a chance of retribution. A higher charge to start a war is a fair idea, however, I think an idea proposed in another forum was better. That being allowing the War Decced Corp the option of surrendering and paying the War Deccer a certain fee, like Double the Fee to War Dec or a bit more some of which goes to Concord some to the War Deccer but then be unable to be War Decced again by that same Corp for a Month. This not applying to Corps in Alliances. This gives the War Deccer a reward for the War Dec to begin with, but on the other hand it gets the Decced Corp out of the risk of loosing their ships or ability to play the game (which is essentailly what a War Dec to a weak corp from a powerful one amounts to). +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.12.07 15:01:00 - [19] Or the war decced corp invests the surrender fee in some mercenaries and fights back instead of clinging to the dellusion that EVE should be played like a mining sim in space. Really i never could understand why so many corps have issues with fighting off a war dec with a cloud of rifters but instead either sit in station and whine on the forums or pretend the war dec doesn't exist and get pwned the next time they carelessly saunter around in their hulks and freighters. Cheap frigate fleets works for Goons, why wouldn't it work for them?
Daeva Vios PhaseShifter Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.07 18:08:00 - [20] Originally by: Shanur Or the war decced corp invests the surrender fee in some mercenaries and fights back instead of clinging to the dellusion that EVE should be played like a mining sim in space. Really i never could understand why so many corps have issues with fighting off a war dec with a cloud of rifters but instead either sit in station and whine on the forums or pretend the war dec doesn't exist and get pwned the next time they carelessly saunter around in their hulks and freighters. Cheap frigate fleets works for Goons, why wouldn't it work for them? This
Sybbiana Dawning	Posted - 2007.12.07 22:45:00 - [21] While there are many decent points being made here, I think that perhaps the original topic has become derailed. The point being that, in most contexts, a war is a method of last resort; it is typically the result of conflict that cannot be resolved through diplomacy, policy or sanctions. There is no question that EVE has many elements that encourage PvP, but EVE was also designed to be an immersive simulated environment, one in which some degree of actual role-playing should hopefully take place. So the point to be made, I believe, is that a WarDec loses some of it's value when it becomes the everyday tool of "grander" corps looking to assert themselves. As this topic subject states, it is tedious and takes some of the value out of the power of a wardec. I'm not denying that EVE is designed for a robust PvP experience, but one has to wonder what ever happened to the "softer" elements such as interaction, diplomacy, etc. On that note, I have to disagree that EVE is first and foremost a PvP game. EVE is designed to be (and succeeds largely at being) a sophisticated game in which people indulge in the use of a wide variety of skills, not solely combat. Given these elements, I agree with the general gist of this thread: frivolous wardecs cheapen the experience. The resolution, I believe, lies more in what can be done to promote the role-playing aspects of the game. I am not yet a seasoned pilot, but here is one idea that comes to me off-the-cuff: Create some type of arbitration system that extends the wardec system. It would first require that a corp declare it's intentions (e.g. "passive", "neutral", "hostile") and this mode of intention would determine how WarDecs declared by or on them are handled. As an example, a corp that declares itself as passive would then have a little insulation against a WarDec, but no ability to declare a WarDec. On the other hand, a hostile corp can WarDec for a reduced cost (or free?) but WarDecs made on them are instantaneously made active. Again, these are off-the-cuff ideas, but the general concept is that a slightly more intricate system could still allow for wardecs as a useful game mechanism while promoting actual gaming and not simply turning all of us into either bragging or whining stat trackers. My personal feeling is that there is nothing wrong with encouraging PvP, but I feel like that element has been over catered to at the cost of the rest of the game's elements.
Jolnas Arbiter	Posted - 2007.12.08 00:02:00 - [22] Edited by: Jolnas Arbiter on 08/12/2007 00:04:11 Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Jolnas Arbiter Talking along those lines... VTIL tells newbies to join a corp that they didn't apply for and maintains a lot of inactive members in the roster deliberately to keep up numbers? Is this griefing? I don't know but it sure as hell is false advertising. Oh I see now, you washed out of our academy corp. Bitter much? Not really... just making a point. Calling people griefers is a serious accusation. I know a lot of people like to be in a corp since the start(or near it). Including me... so I fail to see why you should label any newbie who does so as being griefed by a griefer.
Ard UnjiiGo The Bastards	Posted - 2007.12.08 00:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Multi Point In the real world, the consequences of war are quite harsh. In Eve, there are very few and they are benign at worst. What if a corp had to pay an exorbitant amount of isk, say 50% of their wealth, to declare war on another corp, unless the target corp was a willing combatant? What if players were penalized by death, say, unable to participate for 12 or 24 hours after being ship-killed, or 48 hours after podding? Why not make Eve war an unpleasant business--just like they have allowed Eve to be populated by denizens who are able to lie, cheat, steal, kill, become wealthy, prosper, and have fun while doing it--make war fun but at the cost of a heavier-than-normal price? Best advice I've found for EVE is: "Get stronger and then do it back or to someone else." Seriously, when rookies start calling for nerfs I grimace and I say this as a relative rookie (under 5 months). Embrace whatever "frivolous war dec" got under your skin and made your game experience more challenging. Embrace it, learn from it and then do it to someone else for profit or fun (pirate or merc) or stop someone else from doing it for profit and fun (merc). This is EVE. Play the game for a good long while before calling for nerfing any aspect of it. Adapt or move on to another MMO. As to the role playing. Use your imagination (that is RPing isn't it?) and imagine a universe where declaring war on another corporation is just one bribe away. And what is unrealistic about the rich and powerful waging war on the poor and weak? Work to not be poor and weak is the only answer that you deserve and the only one that actually will help you.
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.12.08 00:49:00 - [24] Originally by: Shanur Or the war decced corp invests the surrender fee in some mercenaries and fights back instead of clinging to the dellusion that EVE should be played like a mining sim in space. Really i never could understand why so many corps have issues with fighting off a war dec with a cloud of rifters but instead either sit in station and whine on the forums or pretend the war dec doesn't exist and get pwned the next time they carelessly saunter around in their hulks and freighters. Cheap frigate fleets works for Goons, why wouldn't it work for them? Depends on how "big" said corp is. If they have 20 members vs. 20 very skilled combat pilots a cloud of 20 rifters is going to be quite a beautiful and futile fireworks display. I could solo a cloud of 20 Industrail pilot flown rifters in my Cane without breaking my passive shield tank. As for paying mercenaries that can work to a small degree but as I mentioned once before It would be nice if Mercs could advertise themselves more. Allowing their customers to know they existed more easily in-game. In a way the new recruitment option in Corp might be able to be used that way if you are savy about it. (Benifits both them and their employers) +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
Ard UnjiiGo The Bastards	Posted - 2007.12.08 03:25:00 - [25] Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 08/12/2007 03:26:48 Twenty newb rifter pilots that even had 30 minutes of PvP coaching and spent 12 hours training some various and useful PvP skills would leave your Cane a smoldering wreck. In all likelihood it would take much less. To believe otherwise is fantasy. But on the bright side - it's one of the features that makes this game fantastic.
blue passion	Posted - 2007.12.08 06:43:00 - [26] lol a 3 man corp of 3 year players war decked us we are a corp of mission runners and miners.i'm sure they thought we were a soft target. we all switched to enyo's for a week killed 1 megathron 3 hurricains 1 drake 6 or seven cruisers and frigs and one iteron 5 .they withdrew we never once sent them an evemail or spoke to them in local. i think we spooked em
Daeva Vios PhaseShifter Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.08 06:46:00 - [27] Originally by: Jolnas Arbiter Edited by: Jolnas Arbiter on 08/12/2007 00:04:11 Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Jolnas Arbiter Talking along those lines... VTIL tells newbies to join a corp that they didn't apply for and maintains a lot of inactive members in the roster deliberately to keep up numbers? Is this griefing? I don't know but it sure as hell is false advertising. Oh I see now, you washed out of our academy corp. Bitter much? Not really... just making a point. Calling people griefers is a serious accusation. I know a lot of people like to be in a corp since the start(or near it). Including me... so I fail to see why you should label any newbie who does so as being griefed by a griefer. No, calling someone a griefer, in EVE, is NOT a serious accusation. What it is, though, is a misunderstanding. Since PvP is planned into the game, there's no such thing as "griefing". When you log in, you need to assume that you can be attacked anywhere, at any time, in any context, except perhaps in a station with all chat windows and the market closed, because all venues of player interaction are available for PVP. There is no such thing as griefing. You should realize that you can be attacked when you log in, and conduct yourself accordingly. In this context, there is no grief, unless someone is definitely exploiting game mechanics to give themselves an unfair advantage (in which case you may petition the individuals and receive restitution). This game is not a PvE game. It is not Harvest Moon in Space. You are a target. You will always be a target, no matter what you do. The only thing you can guarantee is that you'll be a harder target than the other guy, and maybe that will discourage someone.
blue passion	Posted - 2007.12.08 07:00:00 - [28] in gereral the insistance that this game MUST be pvp is irritating. the game mechanics allow for a lot of leway ccp needs to see this and so do other players. i for one do not like pvp as mostly its a 4;1 gank like kids beating up old ladies irl. i play pve i like it that way. i pvp when pushed and go about my merry way.` this game is not pvp or pve it is what u want it to be if you take the time to play it that way. tho one thing is true if u dont want to war stay in a noob corp i do. im a carebear deal with it ;P
Daeva Vios PhaseShifter Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.08 08:49:00 - [29] Your refusal to acknowledge that you can be attacked anywhere and plan accordingly is what makes you a victim, not the people taking advantage of your lack of foresight. Blaming them only makes them laugh harder. Instead, you need to turn them into your victims.
El Jammah Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.12.08 10:55:00 - [30] Edited by: El Jammah on 08/12/2007 10:56:06 Quote: In the real world, the consequences of war are quite harsh. In Eve, there are very few and they are benign at worst. In the real world everything is harsher. Legal punishment, risk taken in finance, everything. Quote: Why not make Eve war an unpleasant business Because "unpleasant" is not fun. The main product of many games ( including EVE) is warfare made fun. Personally I switched to EVE online just for the kicks of "death" penalties. Causing or having major ISK losses through gameplay instead of corpse running. Just sucks to be you when you are in the receiving side. But then again, that's life. ;)

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